Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David ; www.gac-seeds.com Very interesting site! Do you think that Gâc fruits would mature in Oregon? We had our first frost in November, we usually have our last frost at the end of April and beginning of May. I have one other customer in Oregon, but just planted this year and no winter experience yet. Why don't you send me your address offlist and I will send you 20 seeds. I just ask for an occasional status report so I can update the site. The flowers bloom quickly after planting (3 months), the fruits take a few months, the root tuber might survive the winter, it might work. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Peter, Guag Meister wrote: Hi David ; I have one other customer in Oregon, but just planted this year and no winter experience yet. Why don't you send me your address offlist and I will send you 20 seeds. I just ask for an occasional status report so I can update the site. The flowers bloom quickly after planting (3 months), the fruits take a few months, the root tuber might survive the winter, it might work. That is a very gracious offer. I will, as you request, respond privately with my address. Please allow me in return to send you a copy of The Complete Biogas Handbook, if you would be so kind as to send me your address as well. Last year I grew 3,000 starts in a greenhouse beginning in February, with what I expected would be two months before I could put things in the ground. That worked well for my tomatoes, not as well for the cantaloupe, very poorly for the corn (an experiment in any case). Perhaps Gâc fruits would respond well to transplantation, but if there is a substantial tuber, as you indicate, they may not. If time allows, I will try starting potatoes (both /solanum/ and /ipomoea/) next year in the greenhouse as well to have a rough analog for comparison. I know that Vietnamese is a tonal language, and so the pronunciation guide on your site would have to be approximate, but whether it's closer to GAK or GUK, I think the name may have to change if the plant is to become established in the marketplace in the US et al. None of the noises I find myself making in order to try to pronounce the name sounds particularly refreshing, tasty or nutritious. What is the translation, if there is one, of the fruit's name? d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20081123/0360d25e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David, Peter and all Peter doesn't seem to see it that way David. Previous similar discussion, eg: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg73271.html It seems to be a matter of who exactly is we, and who (?) isn't. Here's hoping you'll persuade him things ain't quite so bleak. Peter's own project ain't bleak at all, he's a force for the good. Re which, any news for us Peter? Best Keith Dear Guag, Guag Meister wrote: Hi David ; You know I really believe that you are a nice person and you have really great thoughts and ideals, so there is nothing personal in my response. No offense taken, none offered. ...cut We now stand at the threshold of a global civilization, diverse-- yes-- but unified. Sorry for that severe cut, I don't have too much time to write an eloquent response. I don't think the data fits your assertions. Total military spending worldwide for 2007 was an astonishing $1.2 TRILLION Then we have the other effects I mentioned previously, ie. pollution (cost to the planet is how many US$Trillions?), crime, etc. This does not sound like we are moving in the right direction to me (the right direction being peace and harmony and unity). In fact, from my vantage point outside the US, I can say we are moving in exactly the WRONG direction. Please correct me if I am wrong. If the world were one thing, moving on one path, then I would have to agree with you. But of course, as happens even with individuals, the world is moving, in a sense, in many directions, all at the same time. As I said before, you are correct in listing such problems; they exist, they are severe and intractable. However, there are likewise many trends in entirely the opposite direction. The signs that I see are many of them hopeful. These stand our in clearest relief when we look back over the span of history, rather than merely reading the front page of today's newspaper. The question which cannot be simply answered is which of these tendencies will win out in the end. The point that I made previously is that across the span of history what we see is evolution, a clear trend toward progress in the right direction as you define it. Consider the progress which is being made technologically and scientifically, in public health, in the development of transportation and communication, in medicine, and so on. We are beginning to explore the cosmos and plumb the depths of the human mind. To quote from an essay written in 1985 (The Promise of World Peace), Among the favourable signs are the steadily growing strength of the steps towards world order taken initially near the beginning of this century in the creation of the League of Nations, succeeded by the more broadly based United Nations Organization; the achievement since the Second World War of independence by the majority of all the nations on earth, indicating the completion of the process of nation building, and the involvement of these fledgling nations with older ones in matters of mutual concern; the consequent vast increase in co-operation among hitherto isolated and antagonistic peoples and groups in international undertakings in the scientific, educational, legal, economic and cultural fields; the rise in recent decades of an unprecedented number of international humanitarian organizations; the spread of women's and youth movements calling for an end to war; and the spontaneous spawning of widening networks of ordinary people seeking understanding through personal communication. The scientific and technological advances occurring in this unusually blessed century portend a great surge forward in the social evolution of the planet, and indicate the means by which the practical problems of humanity may be solved. They provide, indeed, the very means for the administration of the complex life of a united world. Yet barriers persist. Doubts, misconceptions, prejudices, suspicions and narrow self-interest beset nations and peoples in their relations one to another. When winter finally ends, the ice breaks up, a kind of necessary chaos before spring takes hold and the green mantle spreads. In the same way, what we now see around us is the changing of the world, with old and outmoded institutions thrashing and dying, and new ones being born, as yet imperfect and underdeveloped. As I indicated previously, many of the problems we now have are the result of new capabilities that we have which we are using in the wrong way. We should expect, however, that when we are handed new tools to solve new problems we should, for a time, use them as if they were old tools and the same problems. Thus we can find hope in the new capabilities-- even, strangely, in the new problems-- and a sobering caution in their misuse. In the end, the message of that picture of the earth hanging in the
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
David, David Penfold wrote: Toensmeier also wrote the two volume /Edible Forests/... Actually, David Jacke was the main author of Edible Forest Gardens... I appreciate the correction. The book makes that clear, but it has been some time since I read it, and I did not check my recollection before sending the message... d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20081118/926a0220/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Guag, Guag Meister wrote: Hi David ; [...] What are you growing on your farm? Selling prices are generally higher for tree crops, it is better for the land and soil fertility, and less work too, but people generally don't plant and develope them due to the time lag to production. Yearly crops are more attractive due to fast return. Billions of people are in poverty. You cannot tell them to wait 3-4 years for income. How to change the vision of the people? Last year, for me, it was annuals, veggie crops. Although most of what I grew was a ubiquitously cultivated perennial: the tomato. As far as changing the vision of the billions in poverty, those who have managed to preserve their culture-- that is, those whom circumstances have not forced off their land and into a slum in the city-- are generally better at assisting themselves, with modest and respectful help, than is the World Bank, with an approach which is often paternalistic, and narrowly focused on top-down solutions. Speaking for myself, I feel quite certain that we will grow up, as a species, and become a proper steward of the planet, peaceful, productive, wise and unified. In my view it's inevitable. (But then, as we make poor choices along the way, so is a requisite measure of suffering...) There are several good books on this subject (J. Diamond for example). Yes in the past sometimes we have beed successful and sometimes not, the failures have been many and spectacular. Not sure why we think we are any better than those in the past. You must understand that they too thought they were super smart and clever. Aren't we polluting the air and water faster than ever, frantically digging oil wells faster than ever?? Many species going extinct faster than ever? Bombing innocent civilians with depleted uranium faster than ever? How to slow the juggernaut? Then after that, we maybe can stop it. Then after that maybe we can turn it around. How to do it?? In California in the early part of the last century, there was a group of Indians called the Yahi, part of the larger Yana tribe. They were hunted for sport by cowboys, decimated by disease-- the old story. One survived-- only one from the entire tribe of perhaps thousands of people-- and he was captured in 1911. His whole family and everyone he ever knew had been slaughtered or had died in hiding. He was the only speaker of the only language he knew. He was called Ishi, which was not his real name, because it was taboo in his culture to speak one's own name. Of course, everyone who had known his name was already dead by the time he came to our attention, and therefore his name was never known to the rest of us. He was eventually put in a museum-- he literally became one of the dioramas, on display, much like a creature in the zoo, where he made arrowheads and wove baskets. He was studied by Alfred Krober, an anthropologist, and two books were written about him by Theodora Krober. (They were the parents of Ursula Le Guin, the science fiction writer.) In the remaining few years of his life, he, Krober and other anthropologists were able to learn enough of one another's language to communicate. I tell this much of the story to give a resonance and background for my favorite Ishi observation. He said of us that we were like children, smart but not wise. For me, not only is the observation true, but the fact that it is so gentle, coming from this man and given his history, embeds it in rich pathos. And I mention Ishi's observation by way of responding to your questions. In my view, intelligence is necessary and insufficient. All of the problems you list are in a sense the result of intelligence unconstrained by wisdom or any other virtue. And as I see it, that provides part of the answer, clearly, which is that as a species we have to increase in (that old-fashioned word) virtue. As to how that will happen, I have my own views-- I am a Bahá'í-- but I will refrain from saying more than that. The main point remains however. Yes, your short list of problems will stand for the whole array of the threats that man poses to himself and the planet. But as we look at the whole arc of history, what we see is uneven but continuous progress and development. From the family to the tribe to the city-state to the nation we see that across the millennia mankind has learned to cooperate at higher levels of unity, that knowledge has increased and civilization has flowered and died, leading to new and more complex civilizations. We now stand at the threshold of a global civilization, diverse-- yes-- but unified. Generally, as in the present period, we have responded to new realities and opportunities from an old mindset, as if we were adolescents confronting our new circumstances by reacting as children would, but eventually we clearly outgrow the old ways and accept our new circumstances. Then our
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David ; You know I really believe that you are a nice person and you have really great thoughts and ideals, so there is nothing personal in my response. ...cut We now stand at the threshold of a global civilization, diverse-- yes-- but unified. Sorry for that severe cut, I don't have too much time to write an eloquent response. I don't think the data fits your assertions. Total military spending worldwide for 2007 was an astonishing $1.2 TRILLION. http://www.infoplease.com/us/military/largest-world-military-expenditures.html Then we have the other effects I mentioned previously, ie. pollution (cost to the planet is how many US$Trillions?), crime, etc. This does not sound like we are moving in the right direction to me (the right direction being peace and harmony and unity). In fact, from my vantage point outside the US, I can say we are moving in exactly the WRONG direction. Please correct me if I am wrong. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Dear Guag, Guag Meister wrote: Hi David ; You know I really believe that you are a nice person and you have really great thoughts and ideals, so there is nothing personal in my response. No offense taken, none offered. ...cut We now stand at the threshold of a global civilization, diverse-- yes-- but unified. Sorry for that severe cut, I don't have too much time to write an eloquent response. I don't think the data fits your assertions. Total military spending worldwide for 2007 was an astonishing $1.2 TRILLION Then we have the other effects I mentioned previously, ie. pollution (cost to the planet is how many US$Trillions?), crime, etc. This does not sound like we are moving in the right direction to me (the right direction being peace and harmony and unity). In fact, from my vantage point outside the US, I can say we are moving in exactly the WRONG direction. Please correct me if I am wrong. If the world were one thing, moving on one path, then I would have to agree with you. But of course, as happens even with individuals, the world is moving, in a sense, in many directions, all at the same time. As I said before, you are correct in listing such problems; they exist, they are severe and intractable. However, there are likewise many trends in entirely the opposite direction. The signs that I see are many of them hopeful. These stand our in clearest relief when we look back over the span of history, rather than merely reading the front page of today's newspaper. The question which cannot be simply answered is which of these tendencies will win out in the end. The point that I made previously is that across the span of history what we see is evolution, a clear trend toward progress in the right direction as you define it. Consider the progress which is being made technologically and scientifically, in public health, in the development of transportation and communication, in medicine, and so on. We are beginning to explore the cosmos and plumb the depths of the human mind. To quote from an essay written in 1985 (The Promise of World Peace), Among the favourable signs are the steadily growing strength of the steps towards world order taken initially near the beginning of this century in the creation of the League of Nations, succeeded by the more broadly based United Nations Organization; the achievement since the Second World War of independence by the majority of all the nations on earth, indicating the completion of the process of nation building, and the involvement of these fledgling nations with older ones in matters of mutual concern; the consequent vast increase in co-operation among hitherto isolated and antagonistic peoples and groups in international undertakings in the scientific, educational, legal, economic and cultural fields; the rise in recent decades of an unprecedented number of international humanitarian organizations; the spread of women's and youth movements calling for an end to war; and the spontaneous spawning of widening networks of ordinary people seeking understanding through personal communication. The scientific and technological advances occurring in this unusually blessed century portend a great surge forward in the social evolution of the planet, and indicate the means by which the practical problems of humanity may be solved. They provide, indeed, the very means for the administration of the complex life of a united world. Yet barriers persist. Doubts, misconceptions, prejudices, suspicions and narrow self-interest beset nations and peoples in their relations one to another. When winter finally ends, the ice breaks up, a kind of necessary chaos before spring takes hold and the green mantle spreads. In the same way, what we now see around us is the changing of the world, with old and outmoded institutions thrashing and dying, and new ones being born, as yet imperfect and underdeveloped. As I indicated previously, many of the problems we now have are the result of new capabilities that we have which we are using in the wrong way. We should expect, however, that when we are handed new tools to solve new problems we should, for a time, use them as if they were old tools and the same problems. Thus we can find hope in the new capabilities-- even, strangely, in the new problems-- and a sobering caution in their misuse. In the end, the message of that picture of the earth hanging in the nothing blackness of space offers a very clear message: we are one. Our fates are inextricably linked. That is our present reality, and history has finally offered us the tools, is developing the institutions, and has broadcast the thoughts we need to finally understand that reality, and respond appropriately. I understand how fractured and wounded the world is, but at the same time the strongest trend I see
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
All, I've not quoted anyone in this thread since my post is not really a response to what has been said, but pertains to the subject per se. I purchased (and read most of) a copy of /Perennial Vegetables/ by Eric Toensmeier, which lists over 100 delicious, easy-to-grow edibles which are (as one may expect) perennial. Toensmeier also wrote the two volume /Edible Forests/, which offers a good deal of information about perennials (and interplanted annuals) from a permaculture perspective. Either of those works are quite new, and must be purchased, but as well, those interested may wish to read /Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture/ by J. Russell Smith (http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops for a description and link). In other words, there are a good many perennial crops which would serve well-- without insertion of new genes, or epigenetic manipulation to permanently turn existing genes on or off-- to support agriculture. I tend to think that we engage in an undue degree of hubris if we think we can make a few changes in a few genes and hey presto we have changed an annual into a perennial. But of course that is a presumption on my part. My point, however, is that we would likely be better off looking at plants which already exist... Granted, however, regardless of the nutritive value of novel crops, they are generally not well accepted in the marketplace, offering a non-agricultural barrier. Ultimately, depending on who you ask, it appears that our species can sustain itself, not merely by growing enough food without assistance from GMOs (see, for example, Frances More Lappé, /World Hunger: Twelve Myths/, http://www.smallplanet.org/books/item/world_hunger_twelve_myths/), but in all other ways, when it so chooses. When we look at a child that is learning to walk, we generally do not condemn it for falling down, but based on our experience with ourselves and other children, we know it will walk: so we praise it. Likewise, with adolescents that have been given a good foundation, we know even if they are awkward or occasionally make poor judgments, they will grow into productive adulthood. So again, if those adolescents make those poor choices, we admonish but do not condemn. But we've never seen an adult version of the human race; so we are far less certain that it will grow into productive adulthood. It is, therefore, far easier to despair and criticize. Speaking for myself, I feel quite certain that we will grow up, as a species, and become a proper steward of the planet, peaceful, productive, wise and unified. In my view it's inevitable. (But then, as we make poor choices along the way, so is a requisite measure of suffering...) d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20081117/398d02a1/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David ; cut wrote the two volume /Edible Forests/, which offers a good ...cut Yes I agree, there is much potential in tree crops and other perennials. What are you growing on your farm? Selling prices are generally higher for tree crops, it is better for the land and soil fertility, and less work too, but people generally don't plant and develope them due to the time lag to production. Yearly crops are more attractive due to fast return. Billions of people are in poverty. You cannot tell them to wait 3-4 years for income. How to change the vision of the people? Speaking for myself, I feel quite certain that we will grow up, as a species, and become a proper steward of the planet, peaceful, productive, wise and unified. In my view it's inevitable. (But then, as we make poor choices along the way, so is a requisite measure of suffering...) There are several good books on this subject (J. Diamond for example). Yes in the past sometimes we have beed successful and sometimes not, the failures have been many and spectacular. Not sure why we think we are any better than those in the past. You must understand that they too thought they were super smart and clever. Aren't we polluting the air and water faster than ever, frantically digging oil wells faster than ever?? Many species going extinct faster than ever? Bombing innocent civilians with depleted uranium faster than ever? How to slow the juggernaut? Then after that, we maybe can stop it. Then after that maybe we can turn it around. How to do it?? BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hello David All, I've not quoted anyone in this thread since my post is not really a response to what has been said, but pertains to the subject per se. I purchased (and read most of) a copy of /Perennial Vegetables/ by Eric Toensmeier, which lists over 100 delicious, easy-to-grow edibles which are (as one may expect) perennial. Toensmeier also wrote the two volume /Edible Forests/, which offers a good deal of information about perennials (and interplanted annuals) from a permaculture perspective. Either of those works are quite new, and must be purchased, but as well, those interested may wish to read /Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture/ by J. Russell Smith (http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops for a description and link). Also these: Leaves to Live By: Perennial Leaf Vegetables There are numerous tropical perennial trees and shrubs with highly nutritious edible leaves. Such plants can form the foundation of a highly productive, low maintenance garden. http://agroforestry.net/pubs/Leaves_to_Live_By-Elevitch.pdf Perennial Leaf Vegetables The Overstory #12 Craig Elevitch and Kim Wilkinson http://agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory12.html Cornucopia II -- A Source Book of Edible Plants by Stephen Facciola, Kampong, ISBN 0962808725 Encyclopaedia of about 3,000 edible plants, alphabetical listing of plant families with 300 pages describing 7,000 varieties, especially traditional and heirloom varieties, and promising new releases. Habitat, origin, cultivation, preparation, modern and ancient uses, and 1,300 sources for seed, plants and rootstock, produce and other foodstuffs. In addition to common and botanical name cross-referencing there is an index of plants listed by use and edible parts. Wonderful work of scholarship. From Alibris books: http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?title=Cornucopia+II Plants for a Future: Edible and Useful Plants for a Healthier World by Ken Fern, 2000, Permanent Publications, ISBN 1856230112 The way we currently produce our food is damaging both to ourselves and our planet. We need to create gardens, woodlands and farms which are in harmony with nature. What we need is to discover and grow a wide variety of easily grown perennial and self-seeding annuals which provide delicious and healthy food, or are useful in other ways. Describing plants such as these, native to Britain and Europe and from temperate areas around the world, this book includes those suitable for: the ornamental garden, the edible lawn, shade, ponds, walls, hedges, agroforestry and conservation. Packed with information, personal anecdote and detailed appendices and indexes, this pioneering book takes gardening, conservation and ecology into a new dimension. Ken Fern leads us through a garden of improbable delights -- cold climate yams five feet long, edible fuschia fruits, trees laden with delicious berries all through the winter, leaves and flowers with the most subtle and astonishing flavours. It is hard to over-estimate the importance and likely impact of this book. The result of an insatiable curiosity and years of painstaking research, this book is comparable in stature only to the works of Evelyn and Culpeper. -- George Monbiot, The Guardian. Order from Plants For A Future: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/book.html Plants For A Future -- A resource centre for edible and other useful plants. Database Search has a variety of powerful searches of very large plant resources. Search by Name (common or family), Edible, Medicinal or Other Use, Native Area, Habitat, word search, Latin names. You can download the database for your own use. Home page: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/index.html Search page: http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/D_search.html The New Crop Resource Online Program at Purdue University, includes CropSEARCH -- a key word search engine to access crop information, CropINDEX -- a list of scientific and common names of crops for information access, CropREFERENCE -- books and manuals on crops, Aromatic-MedicinalPLANTS -- a guide to aromatic medicinal plants, culinary herbs spices, NewCrop LISTSERV -- an interactive bulletin board for queries, discussion, and information on crops, and much more. Easy access to a huge set of resources on crops new and old, trees, plants of all kinds. The most comprehensive library and compilation of new and alternative crop information available on the web. Very useful indeed. http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ Lost Crops of Africa: Volume I: Grains by Noel Vietmeyer, 1996, National Academy Press, ISBN 0309049903 Africa has more native cereals than any other continent. It has its own species of rice, as well as finger millet, fonio, pearl millet, sorghum, tef, guinea millet, and several dozen wild cereals whose grains are eaten from time to time. This is a food heritage that has fed people for generation after generation stretching back to the origins of mankind. It is also a local upon
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi Chris keith, i hadn't even thought of the global warming adaptability angle. that's some first class thinking. It's just that it bothers me a lot. Virtually every new report you see on whatever aspect of global warming says it's worse than expected, it's happening much faster than expected. I seem to be seeing more and more phenological changes here, I'm sure it's happening everywhere: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg70821.html Meanwhile agribusiness in general and their wondrous HYVs in particular have been wiping out traditional varieties wholesale, just when we're really going to need them. Clever! :-( sucks that it's the monsantos that are best positioned to benefit from this, though. Doesn't it. Have to agree with Kirk: The directors and managers of Monsanto should be put in prison for life. We all object when a gunman shoots people in a school yet these people will kill us all. Their assets should also be confiscated and distributed among their victims. Kirk And of course with Roberto: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30628.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi Robert snip ... On a side note I'd also like to add, I've only been a member of the list for a short time now but would like to thank everyone for the great input and thought that goes into this. Hear hear! I'll second that (not for the first time!). All best Keith Sharing of knowledge is one of the most admirable things you can do. -Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 3:03 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials Hello Rob While I find it impressive that a crop could be turned into a perennial I'm also of the opinion this could be a Pandora's box. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi Jason University labs can be just as cutthroat and partisan as any corporate lab. Or they're one and the same thing, very often. Best Keith Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:35:01 + From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials yes, really interesting. bit of a huge pandora's box also. thank goodness this came out of a university, rather than a private lab! still, fascinating. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hello Rob While I find it impressive that a crop could be turned into a perennial I'm also of the opinion this could be a Pandora's box. Yes, good and bad ways of doing it. Furthermore, crop rotation is key to avoiding disease and pests. Not really. If a crop (let's say wheat) stays in the same spot it's just inviting pest and disease build up. Also not really. For instance, the famed Broadbalk field at Rothamsted in the UK produced wheat and only wheat for more than 120 years, without any fertiliser of any kind nor any other inputs except fresh seed every year. Crop rotation certainly helps, where appropriate, for some crops more than for others, but it's not key. If that's all you're doing to avoid disease and pests you'll just be trying to run away from them, and they'll catch you anyway. Other essential methods are biodiversity, suitable varieties, and, most important, without which all else fails, building and maintaining a healthy soil life - that's the key, not just rotations. For which, I suggest you read this: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#howard Especially Part III, Health, Indisposition, and Disease in Agriculture: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT9a.html 11. The Retreat of the Crop and the Animal before the Parasite: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT11.html You don't see trees doing a lot of rotating. A major factor in pest and disease resistance is that crops and varieties must be well adapted to the local climate. It looks like local climate changes are in the offing just about everywhere, or already happening. Perennialising (urk) annuals could be one way of helping some crops adapt to the changing conditions. It's more interesting than Monsanto and the other Gene Giants trying to nail down worldwide patents on crops that might become useful (have sales potential) as global warming unfolds (gains market potential), or more hopeful rather. Best Keith -Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Burck Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:35 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials yes, really interesting. bit of a huge pandora's box also. thank goodness this came out of a university, rather than a private lab! still, fascinating. On 11/13/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Jon Indeed it's interesting, considering how virtually all perennials have some sort of survival mechanism such as bulbs, tubers, etc as mentioned below. Of course this generalisation does not apply to grasses et al... so it is just conceivable that such an experiment would be workable on crops... Wonder where this will go. So do I. We (and the biosphere) are probably going to need all the crop diversity and adaptability we can get, maybe this could help. I suppose there are good and bad ways of doing it. Just the same, useful to know there might be such a possibility. Best Keith --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:11 AM That's very interesting, thankyou. Best Keith There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan Annuals converted into perennials _http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html) Scientists from VIB at Ghent University, Belgium, have succeeded in converting annual plants into perennials. They discovered that the deactivation of two genes in annuals led to the formation of structures that converted the plant into a perennial. This was most likely an important mechanism in plant evolution, initiating the formation of trees. Annual crops grow, blossom and die within one year. Perennials overwinter and grow again the following year. The life strategy of many annuals consists of rapid growth following germination and rapid transition to flower and seed formation, thus preventing the loss of energy needed to create permanent structures. They germinate quickly after the winter so that they come out before other plants, thus eliminating the need to compete for food and light. The trick is basically to make as many seeds as possible in as short a time as possible. Perennials have more evolved life strategies for surviving in poor conditions. They compose perennial structures such as overwintering buds, bulbs or tubers. These structures contain groups with cells that are not yet specialised, but which can
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan These folks are just never going to learn, are they? Sheesh. -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
lol, no doubt. the recent thread about the 'diesel fungus' is a case in point. my point, though, was that had it come out of a private lab, we'd no doubt see someone claiming intellectual property rights over the entire plant kingdom (and i'm not really joking). On 11/14/08, Jason Mier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: University labs can be just as cutthroat and partisan as any corporate lab. Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:35:01 + From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials yes, really interesting. bit of a huge pandora's box also. thank goodness this came out of a university, rather than a private lab! still, fascinating. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Keith, Maybe wheat was a bad crop to suggest since I've never personally grown it. And I've never heard of the Broadbalk field. (I'll have to look that up.) It was just the first thing to pop into my head since it's such a staple crop. Also using the word key was not the best choice of words on my part. It would be better described as a piece to a puzzle. However I am aware of many of the things that need to be done to help avoid disease and pests. Such as, planting to attract beneficial insects, composting, heirloom seeds, diversity, companion planting, trap crops and crop rotation. I even take it a couple steps further by raising worms, double digging and bio-intensive planting to create mini-climates. While I now practice all of the above, in my younger and less informed years (when I took up gardening as a hobby) I planted the same crops in the same spots for years. Sure enough, I eventually got plagued with many of the diseases and pests that tend to burrow into the soil. After deciding to do some research and stop doing things willy-nilly I learned about crop rotation. After rotating the crops many of the diseases and a lot less of the pests were present. Some completely disappeared. I'd be interested to know if the Broadbalk field was old growth forest before it was planted in wheat. It's hard for me to understand how wheat could grow for 120 years with no ferts or fodder unless there was a huge abundance of nutrients built up in the soil. Now back on topic. While I agree that it's more interesting than Monsanto bastardizing every seed on the planet I still think it could potentially be a bad idea. It's not the part we know that scares me, it's the part we don't know. I just don't understand when (we as humans) will start to realize that we need to start working with mother nature and stop trying to mold it. Take corn for example. That's humans working with mother nature to domesticate a crop. On the other hand when you start switching genes on and off it seems a step too far. But that's just my personal opinion. A lot of what seems like a good idea at the time ends up biting us in the end. Case in point. When we started mechanizing farming through the use of fossil fuels. It allowed us to have the green revolution. There were cheers from everyone No more hunger!. However no one stopped (at the time) to consider that abundance of food would equal an abundance of people. (Liebigs Law in action). If you overlay an oil production chart and a population growth chart they almost sync perfectly. Now we're in a situation where we use an estimated 14 to 21 calories of hydrocarbons to produce one calorie of food. The oil supplies are dwindling and we have 6.5 billion mouths to feed. Most of which rely on mechanized farming. This is why I respect you and Journey to Forever so much. From what I've seen you guys seem to understand that in the near future, energy is going to have to be produced from local and multiple sustainable sources. And so is food. Conservation is also going to be key. As far as trees go, I'm not sure if you mean the ones that grow naturally in the forest or calorie crop trees. The ones in the forest have built up resistances over time and still succumb to pests and diseases. Just look at Ash trees for a present day example. As far as calorie crop trees, my orchard gives me more headaches due to pests and diseases than any other crops I grow. On a side note I'd also like to add, I've only been a member of the list for a short time now but would like to thank everyone for the great input and thought that goes into this. Sharing of knowledge is one of the most admirable things you can do. -Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 3:03 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials Hello Rob While I find it impressive that a crop could be turned into a perennial I'm also of the opinion this could be a Pandora's box. Yes, good and bad ways of doing it. Furthermore, crop rotation is key to avoiding disease and pests. Not really. If a crop (let's say wheat) stays in the same spot it's just inviting pest and disease build up. Also not really. For instance, the famed Broadbalk field at Rothamsted in the UK produced wheat and only wheat for more than 120 years, without any fertiliser of any kind nor any other inputs except fresh seed every year. Crop rotation certainly helps, where appropriate, for some crops more than for others, but it's not key. If that's all you're doing to avoid disease and pests you'll just be trying to run away from them, and they'll catch you anyway. Other essential methods are biodiversity, suitable varieties, and, most important, without which all else fails, building and maintaining a healthy soil life - that's the key, not just rotations. For which, I suggest you read this: http
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
keith, i hadn't even thought of the global warming adaptability angle. that's some first class thinking. sucks that it's the monsantos that are best positioned to benefit from this, though. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
keith, i hadn't even thought of the global warming adaptability angle. that's some first class thinking. sucks that it's the monsantos that are best positioned to benefit from this, though. On 11/14/08, Robert Vernon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Maybe wheat was a bad crop to suggest since I've never personally grown it. And I've never heard of the Broadbalk field. (I'll have to look that up.) It was just the first thing to pop into my head since it's such a staple crop. Also using the word key was not the best choice of words on my part. It would be better described as a piece to a puzzle. However I am aware of many of the things that need to be done to help avoid disease and pests. Such as, planting to attract beneficial insects, composting, heirloom seeds, diversity, companion planting, trap crops and crop rotation. I even take it a couple steps further by raising worms, double digging and bio-intensive planting to create mini-climates. While I now practice all of the above, in my younger and less informed years (when I took up gardening as a hobby) I planted the same crops in the same spots for years. Sure enough, I eventually got plagued with many of the diseases and pests that tend to burrow into the soil. After deciding to do some research and stop doing things willy-nilly I learned about crop rotation. After rotating the crops many of the diseases and a lot less of the pests were present. Some completely disappeared. I'd be interested to know if the Broadbalk field was old growth forest before it was planted in wheat. It's hard for me to understand how wheat could grow for 120 years with no ferts or fodder unless there was a huge abundance of nutrients built up in the soil. Now back on topic. While I agree that it's more interesting than Monsanto bastardizing every seed on the planet I still think it could potentially be a bad idea. It's not the part we know that scares me, it's the part we don't know. I just don't understand when (we as humans) will start to realize that we need to start working with mother nature and stop trying to mold it. Take corn for example. That's humans working with mother nature to domesticate a crop. On the other hand when you start switching genes on and off it seems a step too far. But that's just my personal opinion. A lot of what seems like a good idea at the time ends up biting us in the end. Case in point. When we started mechanizing farming through the use of fossil fuels. It allowed us to have the green revolution. There were cheers from everyone No more hunger!. However no one stopped (at the time) to consider that abundance of food would equal an abundance of people. (Liebigs Law in action). If you overlay an oil production chart and a population growth chart they almost sync perfectly. Now we're in a situation where we use an estimated 14 to 21 calories of hydrocarbons to produce one calorie of food. The oil supplies are dwindling and we have 6.5 billion mouths to feed. Most of which rely on mechanized farming. This is why I respect you and Journey to Forever so much. From what I've seen you guys seem to understand that in the near future, energy is going to have to be produced from local and multiple sustainable sources. And so is food. Conservation is also going to be key. As far as trees go, I'm not sure if you mean the ones that grow naturally in the forest or calorie crop trees. The ones in the forest have built up resistances over time and still succumb to pests and diseases. Just look at Ash trees for a present day example. As far as calorie crop trees, my orchard gives me more headaches due to pests and diseases than any other crops I grow. On a side note I'd also like to add, I've only been a member of the list for a short time now but would like to thank everyone for the great input and thought that goes into this. Sharing of knowledge is one of the most admirable things you can do. -Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 3:03 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials Hello Rob While I find it impressive that a crop could be turned into a perennial I'm also of the opinion this could be a Pandora's box. Yes, good and bad ways of doing it. Furthermore, crop rotation is key to avoiding disease and pests. Not really. If a crop (let's say wheat) stays in the same spot it's just inviting pest and disease build up. Also not really. For instance, the famed Broadbalk field at Rothamsted in the UK produced wheat and only wheat for more than 120 years, without any fertiliser of any kind nor any other inputs except fresh seed every year. Crop rotation certainly helps, where appropriate, for some crops more than for others, but it's not key. If that's all you're doing to avoid disease and pests you'll just be trying
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
yes, really interesting. bit of a huge pandora's box also. thank goodness this came out of a university, rather than a private lab! still, fascinating. On 11/13/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Jon Indeed it's interesting, considering how virtually all perennials have some sort of survival mechanism such as bulbs, tubers, etc as mentioned below. Of course this generalisation does not apply to grasses et al... so it is just conceivable that such an experiment would be workable on crops... Wonder where this will go. So do I. We (and the biosphere) are probably going to need all the crop diversity and adaptability we can get, maybe this could help. I suppose there are good and bad ways of doing it. Just the same, useful to know there might be such a possibility. Best Keith --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:11 AM That's very interesting, thankyou. Best Keith There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan Annuals converted into perennials _http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html) Scientists from VIB at Ghent University, Belgium, have succeeded in converting annual plants into perennials. They discovered that the deactivation of two genes in annuals led to the formation of structures that converted the plant into a perennial. This was most likely an important mechanism in plant evolution, initiating the formation of trees. Annual crops grow, blossom and die within one year. Perennials overwinter and grow again the following year. The life strategy of many annuals consists of rapid growth following germination and rapid transition to flower and seed formation, thus preventing the loss of energy needed to create permanent structures. They germinate quickly after the winter so that they come out before other plants, thus eliminating the need to compete for food and light. The trick is basically to make as many seeds as possible in as short a time as possible. Perennials have more evolved life strategies for surviving in poor conditions. They compose perennial structures such as overwintering buds, bulbs or tubers. These structures contain groups with cells that are not yet specialised, but which can later be converted when required into new organs such as stalks and leaves. Annual crops consume all the non-specialised cells in developing their flowers. Thus the appearance of the flower signals means the end of the plant. But fortunately they have left seeds that sense - after winter - that the moment has come to start up. Plants are able to register the lengthening of the days. With the advent of longer days in the spring, a signal is sent from the leaves to the growth tops to activate a limited number of blooming-induction genes. VIB researchers, such as Siegbert Melzer in Tom Beeckman's group, have studied two such flower-inducing genes. They have deactivated them in thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana), a typical annual. The VIB researchers found that mutant plants can no longer induce flowering, but they can continue to grow vegetatively or come into flower much later. Melzer had found that modified crops did not use up their store of non-specialised cells, enabling perennial growth. They can therefore continue to grow for a very long time. As with real perennials these plants show secondary growth with wood formation creating shrub-like Arabidopsis plants. Researchers have been fascinated for a long time by the evolution of herbaceous to woody structures. This research clearly shows only two genes are in fact necessary in this process. This has probably been going on throughout the evolution of plants. Furthermore it is not inconceivable this happened independently on multiple occasions. Source: VIB (the Flanders Institute for Biotechnology), Belgium (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
While I find it impressive that a crop could be turned into a perennial I'm also of the opinion this could be a Pandora's box. Furthermore, crop rotation is key to avoiding disease and pests. If a crop (let's say wheat) stays in the same spot it's just inviting pest and disease build up. -Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Burck Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:35 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials yes, really interesting. bit of a huge pandora's box also. thank goodness this came out of a university, rather than a private lab! still, fascinating. On 11/13/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Jon Indeed it's interesting, considering how virtually all perennials have some sort of survival mechanism such as bulbs, tubers, etc as mentioned below. Of course this generalisation does not apply to grasses et al... so it is just conceivable that such an experiment would be workable on crops... Wonder where this will go. So do I. We (and the biosphere) are probably going to need all the crop diversity and adaptability we can get, maybe this could help. I suppose there are good and bad ways of doing it. Just the same, useful to know there might be such a possibility. Best Keith --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:11 AM That's very interesting, thankyou. Best Keith There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan Annuals converted into perennials _http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html) Scientists from VIB at Ghent University, Belgium, have succeeded in converting annual plants into perennials. They discovered that the deactivation of two genes in annuals led to the formation of structures that converted the plant into a perennial. This was most likely an important mechanism in plant evolution, initiating the formation of trees. Annual crops grow, blossom and die within one year. Perennials overwinter and grow again the following year. The life strategy of many annuals consists of rapid growth following germination and rapid transition to flower and seed formation, thus preventing the loss of energy needed to create permanent structures. They germinate quickly after the winter so that they come out before other plants, thus eliminating the need to compete for food and light. The trick is basically to make as many seeds as possible in as short a time as possible. Perennials have more evolved life strategies for surviving in poor conditions. They compose perennial structures such as overwintering buds, bulbs or tubers. These structures contain groups with cells that are not yet specialised, but which can later be converted when required into new organs such as stalks and leaves. Annual crops consume all the non-specialised cells in developing their flowers. Thus the appearance of the flower signals means the end of the plant. But fortunately they have left seeds that sense - after winter - that the moment has come to start up. Plants are able to register the lengthening of the days. With the advent of longer days in the spring, a signal is sent from the leaves to the growth tops to activate a limited number of blooming-induction genes. VIB researchers, such as Siegbert Melzer in Tom Beeckman's group, have studied two such flower-inducing genes. They have deactivated them in thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana), a typical annual. The VIB researchers found that mutant plants can no longer induce flowering, but they can continue to grow vegetatively or come into flower much later. Melzer had found that modified crops did not use up their store of non-specialised cells, enabling perennial growth. They can therefore continue to grow for a very long time. As with real perennials these plants show secondary growth with wood formation creating shrub-like Arabidopsis plants. Researchers have been fascinated for a long time by the evolution of herbaceous to woody structures. This research clearly shows only two genes are in fact necessary in this process. This has probably been going on throughout the evolution of plants. Furthermore it is not inconceivable this happened independently on multiple occasions. Source: VIB (the Flanders Institute for Biotechnology), Belgium (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
University labs can be just as cutthroat and partisan as any corporate lab. Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:35:01 + From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials yes, really interesting. bit of a huge pandora's box also. thank goodness this came out of a university, rather than a private lab! still, fascinating. _ See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
That's very interesting, thankyou. Best Keith There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan Annuals converted into perennials _http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html) Scientists from VIB at Ghent University, Belgium, have succeeded in converting annual plants into perennials. They discovered that the deactivation of two genes in annuals led to the formation of structures that converted the plant into a perennial. This was most likely an important mechanism in plant evolution, initiating the formation of trees. Annual crops grow, blossom and die within one year. Perennials overwinter and grow again the following year. The life strategy of many annuals consists of rapid growth following germination and rapid transition to flower and seed formation, thus preventing the loss of energy needed to create permanent structures. They germinate quickly after the winter so that they come out before other plants, thus eliminating the need to compete for food and light. The trick is basically to make as many seeds as possible in as short a time as possible. Perennials have more evolved life strategies for surviving in poor conditions. They compose perennial structures such as overwintering buds, bulbs or tubers. These structures contain groups with cells that are not yet specialised, but which can later be converted when required into new organs such as stalks and leaves. Annual crops consume all the non-specialised cells in developing their flowers. Thus the appearance of the flower signals means the end of the plant. But fortunately they have left seeds that sense - after winter - that the moment has come to start up. Plants are able to register the lengthening of the days. With the advent of longer days in the spring, a signal is sent from the leaves to the growth tops to activate a limited number of blooming-induction genes. VIB researchers, such as Siegbert Melzer in Tom Beeckman's group, have studied two such flower-inducing genes. They have deactivated them in thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana), a typical annual. The VIB researchers found that mutant plants can no longer induce flowering, but they can continue to grow vegetatively or come into flower much later. Melzer had found that modified crops did not use up their store of non-specialised cells, enabling perennial growth. They can therefore continue to grow for a very long time. As with real perennials these plants show secondary growth with wood formation creating shrub-like Arabidopsis plants. Researchers have been fascinated for a long time by the evolution of herbaceous to woody structures. This research clearly shows only two genes are in fact necessary in this process. This has probably been going on throughout the evolution of plants. Furthermore it is not inconceivable this happened independently on multiple occasions. Source: VIB (the Flanders Institute for Biotechnology), Belgium (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Indeed it's interesting, considering how virtually all perennials have some sort of survival mechanism such as bulbs, tubers, etc as mentioned below. Of course this generalisation does not apply to grasses et al... so it is just conceivable that such an experiment would be workable on crops... Wonder where this will go. --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:11 AM That's very interesting, thankyou. Best Keith There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan Annuals converted into perennials _http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html) Scientists from VIB at Ghent University, Belgium, have succeeded in converting annual plants into perennials. They discovered that the deactivation of two genes in annuals led to the formation of structures that converted the plant into a perennial. This was most likely an important mechanism in plant evolution, initiating the formation of trees. Annual crops grow, blossom and die within one year. Perennials overwinter and grow again the following year. The life strategy of many annuals consists of rapid growth following germination and rapid transition to flower and seed formation, thus preventing the loss of energy needed to create permanent structures. They germinate quickly after the winter so that they come out before other plants, thus eliminating the need to compete for food and light. The trick is basically to make as many seeds as possible in as short a time as possible. Perennials have more evolved life strategies for surviving in poor conditions. They compose perennial structures such as overwintering buds, bulbs or tubers. These structures contain groups with cells that are not yet specialised, but which can later be converted when required into new organs such as stalks and leaves. Annual crops consume all the non-specialised cells in developing their flowers. Thus the appearance of the flower signals means the end of the plant. But fortunately they have left seeds that sense - after winter - that the moment has come to start up. Plants are able to register the lengthening of the days. With the advent of longer days in the spring, a signal is sent from the leaves to the growth tops to activate a limited number of blooming-induction genes. VIB researchers, such as Siegbert Melzer in Tom Beeckman's group, have studied two such flower-inducing genes. They have deactivated them in thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana), a typical annual. The VIB researchers found that mutant plants can no longer induce flowering, but they can continue to grow vegetatively or come into flower much later. Melzer had found that modified crops did not use up their store of non-specialised cells, enabling perennial growth. They can therefore continue to grow for a very long time. As with real perennials these plants show secondary growth with wood formation creating shrub-like Arabidopsis plants. Researchers have been fascinated for a long time by the evolution of herbaceous to woody structures. This research clearly shows only two genes are in fact necessary in this process. This has probably been going on throughout the evolution of plants. Furthermore it is not inconceivable this happened independently on multiple occasions. Source: VIB (the Flanders Institute for Biotechnology), Belgium (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20081112/37a1ae24/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hello Jon Indeed it's interesting, considering how virtually all perennials have some sort of survival mechanism such as bulbs, tubers, etc as mentioned below. Of course this generalisation does not apply to grasses et al... so it is just conceivable that such an experiment would be workable on crops... Wonder where this will go. So do I. We (and the biosphere) are probably going to need all the crop diversity and adaptability we can get, maybe this could help. I suppose there are good and bad ways of doing it. Just the same, useful to know there might be such a possibility. Best Keith --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:11 AM That's very interesting, thankyou. Best Keith There is a new development in how to develop perennials of some of the plants we use for our food production, such as wheat. Evidently there are some genes responsible for the distinction between annuals perennials - seems that a team of Belgian scientists found how to toggle the switch, so to speak. best wishes Shan Annuals converted into perennials _http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html_ (http://www.physorg.com/news145514195.html) Scientists from VIB at Ghent University, Belgium, have succeeded in converting annual plants into perennials. They discovered that the deactivation of two genes in annuals led to the formation of structures that converted the plant into a perennial. This was most likely an important mechanism in plant evolution, initiating the formation of trees. Annual crops grow, blossom and die within one year. Perennials overwinter and grow again the following year. The life strategy of many annuals consists of rapid growth following germination and rapid transition to flower and seed formation, thus preventing the loss of energy needed to create permanent structures. They germinate quickly after the winter so that they come out before other plants, thus eliminating the need to compete for food and light. The trick is basically to make as many seeds as possible in as short a time as possible. Perennials have more evolved life strategies for surviving in poor conditions. They compose perennial structures such as overwintering buds, bulbs or tubers. These structures contain groups with cells that are not yet specialised, but which can later be converted when required into new organs such as stalks and leaves. Annual crops consume all the non-specialised cells in developing their flowers. Thus the appearance of the flower signals means the end of the plant. But fortunately they have left seeds that sense - after winter - that the moment has come to start up. Plants are able to register the lengthening of the days. With the advent of longer days in the spring, a signal is sent from the leaves to the growth tops to activate a limited number of blooming-induction genes. VIB researchers, such as Siegbert Melzer in Tom Beeckman's group, have studied two such flower-inducing genes. They have deactivated them in thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana), a typical annual. The VIB researchers found that mutant plants can no longer induce flowering, but they can continue to grow vegetatively or come into flower much later. Melzer had found that modified crops did not use up their store of non-specialised cells, enabling perennial growth. They can therefore continue to grow for a very long time. As with real perennials these plants show secondary growth with wood formation creating shrub-like Arabidopsis plants. Researchers have been fascinated for a long time by the evolution of herbaceous to woody structures. This research clearly shows only two genes are in fact necessary in this process. This has probably been going on throughout the evolution of plants. Furthermore it is not inconceivable this happened independently on multiple occasions. Source: VIB (the Flanders Institute for Biotechnology), Belgium (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
