Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic watertreatment
Until you take the human influence ( conscious or subconscious ) and other variables from the results, there is no way to do any conclusive scientific test.Without any conclusive scientific testing, there is no proof. Just because there are cars on the road that use magnets, and they appear to work, is no teat or proof that they work.The owners could very easily be subconscious be easier on the throttle, which in turn make it appear that the magnets are indeed working.One can just as easily say that Mutually Assured Destruction worked, so it is a good thing to have nuclear weapons. NOT. Just because something appears to work, does not mean that it actualy does, unless conclusive scientific testing - that eliminates any other possible variables as the actual reason for the improvement, proves it does. *** Sorry Keith, but, it's time for the pro-magnet crowd to put up verifiable testing or cut the yacking about something that is not proven to work - we may as well be talking about Zero point energy, cold fusion, or perpetual motion machines *** Greg H. - Original Message - From: Andres Secco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:28 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic watertreatment Greg, My experience is totally different and disagree with your concepts of no real proofs. There are thousands of cars, cooling towers and boilers running with magnets with very good results. Better fosil fuel yield no fouling are the reported results. Of course if someone wants to pasteurize or sterilize water is unlikely to do it with magnets. Magnets do not make miracles but say that there is a waste of time to use them is too much. - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic water treatment Mike, You have made a statement that really stands out as to how unreliable the science of magnetism really is. Ozone is now a proven technology for many things, including purification of water, while 30 years ago it was in the realm of junk science. Yet, after 30 years, magnets are still in the realm of junk science ( sounds good - maybe even possible, but no real proof ). One would think that thirty years would be plenty of time to establish the how and why it works and be accepted by the mainstream science community. Yet, magnets are still have not been proven by scientific trials. You mention trials by putting them on fuel pipelines, and watching the differences in the amount of wax build up, but, there is no proof in that. The amount of wax in fuel varies with the time of the year, and the particular fuel flowing through the pipeline.The same pipeline will handle ( in order of decreasing wax content ) heating oil ( Diesel #4 ), vehicle diesel in the summer( Diesel #2 ), vehicle Diesel in the winter ( Diesel #1 or a blend of #1 and #2 depending on how cold the area get's, that the fuel is going to ) and possibly kerosene depending on the area. A build up of wax that occurred when heating oil is being pumped through the pipeline, will dissolve when diesel #1 or kerosene is being pumped through the pipeline. Wax buildup is also more likely to occur during the late winter / early spring, time frame after a long period of cold temps have cooled down the soil that the pipeline runs through - granted, at the depth the pipeline is, the temperature difference would only amount to a few degrees, but, even a few degrees, can make a difference, with a increase or decrease in wax build up with the different fuels. Without controlling the variables, other that using or not using magnets, it is not a verifiable test, nor is it scientific by any means. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike McGinness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 18:25 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners andmagnetic water treatment SNIP These same magnets are sold for magnetic water conditioning. So is ozone, which has moved from the realm of sudo science in the USA 30 years ago, to a point now where it is used instead of chlorine in nearly 50% of US drinking water supply systems. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic watertreatment
Greg and April wrote: Just because something appears to work, does not mean that it actualy does, unless conclusive scientific testing - that eliminates any other possible variables as the actual reason for the improvement, proves it does. *** Sorry Keith, but, it's time for the pro-magnet crowd to put up verifiable testing or cut the yacking about something that is not proven to work - we may as well be talking about Zero point energy, cold fusion, or perpetual motion machines *** I'm not sure why we need to have debates on this at all, or why it seems to be a matter of belief. Magnets polarize the fuel and increase fuel economy snake oil C'mon. This is simple. If you think that a company sells 10 million dollars of fuel enhancing magnets annually so there MUST be something there, GO BUY IT. Install it on your own vehicle. Tell us how it works. Document carefully how gas mileage changes and tell us about it. While one person doing this and reporting better mileage is a far cry from scientific evidence and a controlled study, it's a useful starting point. If 10 believers strap on magnets guaranteed to increase fuel economy 15% and 8 of them report a 5% savings or better I will personally buy these miracle boosters and put them on engines on a dyno. And if it should boost economy by an iota I will loudly tell everyone and will send a reward to the believers for enlightening me. At this point it falls into the category of things that could help but aren't worth trying. Dancing naked at midnight on a new moon might help my plants grow too, but I'm skeptical enough to figure it's not worth my time. If the believers aren't willing to pay 39.95 to increase their fuel economy 15% then I figure that a) they don't really believe or b) they aren't interested in saving fuel. I doubt many on this list fall in the second category. --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic watertreatment
In the interest of science and calming this debate, I am making this offer, as I think facts would be useful. If someone is prepared to buy a set of the magnets and ship them to me, I will install them on my wife's vehicle to test them. The test will begin after our roads are snow-free to attempt to minimize the temperature / additional road drag / snow tires variables from the test. The test will begin with one month (minimum) of logging mileage and fuel consumption, and comparing this to published data on fuel consumption ratings. Her use of the vehicle is fairly repeatable (primarily commuting and running errands, mostly urban driving). With baseline data in hand, I will install the magnets and proceed with an additional month (minimum) of testing under similar conditions, recording fuel consumption. Finally, I will remove the magnets, and conduct an additional month (minimum) of testing, again recording the results. I will ship the magnets at this time to the person that supplied them, so they are not out of pocket. My wife will know that testing is going on, but will not know when the magnets are installed and not installed, in the hopes of providing a degree of blindness in the test. I will publish the results here (and elsewhere), including the brand of magnets used. This offer is open to commercial suppliers of such magnets. Offer limited to the first supplier that causes said magnets to arrive at my residence. This vehicle typically uses regular gasoline mixed with 7 to 10% ethanol (controlled by the supplier). If desired by the supplier of the magnets, we will use gasoline without ethanol for the duration of the testing. Disclosure: I am a skeptic, but try to keep an open mind. Darryl McMahon David Miller wrote: Greg and April wrote: Just because something appears to work, does not mean that it actualy does, unless conclusive scientific testing - that eliminates any other possible variables as the actual reason for the improvement, proves it does. *** Sorry Keith, but, it's time for the pro-magnet crowd to put up verifiable testing or cut the yacking about something that is not proven to work - we may as well be talking about Zero point energy, cold fusion, or perpetual motion machines *** I'm not sure why we need to have debates on this at all, or why it seems to be a matter of belief. Magnets polarize the fuel and increase fuel economy snake oil C'mon. This is simple. If you think that a company sells 10 million dollars of fuel enhancing magnets annually so there MUST be something there, GO BUY IT. Install it on your own vehicle. Tell us how it works. Document carefully how gas mileage changes and tell us about it. While one person doing this and reporting better mileage is a far cry from scientific evidence and a controlled study, it's a useful starting point. If 10 believers strap on magnets guaranteed to increase fuel economy 15% and 8 of them report a 5% savings or better I will personally buy these miracle boosters and put them on engines on a dyno. And if it should boost economy by an iota I will loudly tell everyone and will send a reward to the believers for enlightening me. At this point it falls into the category of things that could help but aren't worth trying. Dancing naked at midnight on a new moon might help my plants grow too, but I'm skeptical enough to figure it's not worth my time. If the believers aren't willing to pay 39.95 to increase their fuel economy 15% then I figure that a) they don't really believe or b) they aren't interested in saving fuel. I doubt many on this list fall in the second category. --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
