Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-17 Thread MH

 It looks like everyone is debating a self correcting problem, at least
 on the fuel/oil use.  If  we don't want to use the oil products, they
 are going to run out of them sooner or later-- use them faster.
 If the green house deal comes about, it will likely kill most the
 population off-- less people messing up the world. Like with Mt. St.
 Helen's, nature will correct itself, even if people don't.  

I've been observing the effects of global warming by the increase of the green 
house
effect sense the late 1970s.  In WI small ponds, wetlands and even the Great 
Lakes are evaporating
to some extent or a remnant of the past.  
Neighboring Minnesota - 
Home of Minnesotans for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ME3) reported, 

The danger to wetlands would come from dryness as well as heat. 
W. Carter Johnson, professor of ecology at South Dakota State University, 
found that if temperatures increase 3.6¡F to 7¡F, precipitation 
would have to increase 10 to 25 percent to maintain the current status 
of wetlands. [32] But if increases in precipitation come in winter alone 
or in severe downpours, soils may dry anyway. Some computer projections 
show a loss of 50 percent or more in summer soil moisture. 
Johnson expects wetlands could be choked with cattails, which would reduce 
the habitat quality and number of ducks. Many wetlands might be lost 
completely. 
from - Minnesota's Wetlands and Prairies 
http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-06.html 

A total of 73 tornadoes touched down in Minnesota in 2001, 
shattering the all-time record of 57 set only three years earlier. 
In fact, more twisters hit here than in Oklahoma, the heart of tornado alley! 
Foreword - by Paul Douglas  
chief meteorologist for WCCO-TV, the top-ranked news station in the Twin 
Cities   
http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-01.html  

 If a person
 wants to correct a problem, you don't start by howling at the moon, you
 look down to see if your own foot in in the mud and start from there.
 I guess it would just about be self correcting on drunk drivers, but
 there, I would help it along by making it murder 1 if a drunk driver
 killed anyone beyond themselves.
 In my research of the last few months on bio diesel, it looks like the
 biggest hindrance to getting anything off the ground is EPA or other
 government regulations.  

It does sound that way to me BUT comments like these from the 
Minnesota Pollution Control Agency :  
Virtually every component of what we know as weather or climate 
will change due to CO2 - caused warming, and few ecosystems will survive 
without disruption unless we begin to take this problem seriously.[12]  
http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-02.html 
and  
Coal is one of the dirtiest fuels we could choose for producing 
electricity.[63] 
http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-09.html  
leads me to believe big business influence with lawyers, lobbyist and 
legislators 
effects gov't revenue dependent upon company job placement/residence.  This 
business cost 
is probably offset by disproportionate lower corporate taxes and increased 
income taxes 
hopefully balancing US state  federal budgets alas 40 some states aren't.  BUT 
then again.

Business Note: BP Cuts Political Spending (1:20) 
Mentions British Petroleum, Amoco and Arco contributed to political parties in 
the USA one million
dollars in 2000 and $250k 2001 mostly going to Republicans.  The BP spokes 
woman says it was
inherited by US Amoco  Arco oil companies.  By April 1st this will end [I'm 
guessing in the USA].   

Resignations (6:00) 
The Bush administration is making headway in the environmental team via 
resignations.  
Living on Earth archive 
March 8, 2002  http://www.loe.org  

Remember the eager young Naderites? Although it seems like another lifetime, 
it was only 15 months
ago that supporters of the Green Party were telling us, with a sense of 
foreboding in their cracking
voices, that there was no difference between presidential candidates Al Gore 
and George W. Bush. 
Beating Around the Bush 
A look at the president's first year in office 
by Mathew Gross 
12 Feb 2002 
http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/imho/gross021202.asp  
Grist, a project of Earth Day Network  www.earthday.net  

The farmers represent and preserve the values of our nation:  hard work, 
risk-taking, love of the
land.  I always like to say people who own their own land understand the 
necessity to be good
stewards -- every day is Earth Day if you own your own land.  The farmers 
represent love of family
and love of our country.  And farming is our first industry, the industry that 
feeds us, that
clothes us and, increasingly, provides our energy. -- President George W. Bush 

Office of the Press Secretary  November 28, 2001 
President Urges Action on Economic Stimulus Proposal 
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT  TO FARMERS JOURNAL CORPORATION CONVENTION
The J.W. Marriott 

Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-17 Thread Harmon Seaver

On Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:52:47PM -0600, MH wrote:
 The danger to wetlands would come from dryness as well as heat. 
 W. Carter Johnson, professor of ecology at South Dakota State University, 
 found that if temperatures increase 3.6¡F to 7¡F, precipitation 
 would have to increase 10 to 25 percent to maintain the current status 
 of wetlands. [32] But if increases in precipitation come in winter alone 
 or in severe downpours, soils may dry anyway. Some computer projections 
 show a loss of 50 percent or more in summer soil moisture. 
 Johnson expects wetlands could be choked with cattails, which would reduce 
 the habitat quality and number of ducks. Many wetlands might be lost 
 completely. 
 from - Minnesota's Wetlands and Prairies 
 http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-06.html 


   Hot damn! Cattails galore! Of course, that fellow's well considered opinion 
couldn't forsee the fantastic
fortune awaiting the lowly cattail, the biofuel dream crop! It ain't that those 
nasty cattails are going to
wipeout the native wetland (hmm, aren't they also saying that about that 
other northamerican native grass
reed canary grass ??? What a sick joke!
   And if you can't figure out how to harvest cattail commercially, I guess you 
better not get into the
commercial rice business, eh? 



-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-15 Thread Richard Morgan

It looks like everyone is debating a self correcting problem, at least 
on the fuel/oil use.  If  we don't want to use the oil products, they 
are going to run out of them sooner or later-- use them faster.
If the green house deal comes about, it will likely kill most the 
population off-- less people messing up the world. Like with Mt. St. 
Helen's, nature will correct itself, even if people don't.  If a person 
wants to correct a problem, you don't start by howling at the moon, you 
 look down to see if your own foot in in the mud and start from there.
I guess it would just about be self correcting on drunk drivers, but 
there, I would help it along by making it murder 1 if a drunk driver 
killed anyone beyond themselves.
In my research of the last few months on bio diesel, it looks like the 
biggest hindrance to getting anything off the ground is EPA or other 
government regulations.  Why would anything basically being a food 
product  and not being consumed as an edible be regulated by anyone. 
 There are other ways of controlling bad end products, around here the 
business won't last long, just by word of mouth.  Other places, they 
like to sue until the lawyers are satisfied justice is done.


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RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-15 Thread kirk

How about the number of people killed each year by contaminated food?
When they tell you a child died from ecoli contamination they are telling
you they can't run a business where they keep shit out of the hamburger. If
my uncles slaughterhouse had done that he would have been out of business
that week.
There is NO excuse for that. But they will tell you it would be cost
prohibitive as they go home to their steak dinner in their Mercedes limo.

How about the number of people getting lead poisoning in the east from lead
pipes? Or cryptosporidium in the water. No cure for that except your immune
system so old folks die. And people with organ transplants and AIDS victims
too as there immune function is inadequate.

How about all the cancer? One in 3 now. In 1930 one in 100,000 was
considered excessive. Why all the cancer and heart disease? Read Nutrition
and Physical Degeneration by Weston Price. Then read the companion animal
study Pottenger's Cats by Frances Pottenger. The food industry kills
millions each year and the science has been known for over 70 years. Where
is the concern for that?

I drink less than 1 beer a month but I know a whipping boy when I see one.
The Federal highway speed was dropped when Detroit made those little Pinto
cars that are unsafe over 40 mph. It is a lot easier to drop the speed limit
than make a decent vehicle. I rented one of those pieces of crap at the
airport and had to do a fast lane change on the freeway. I could feel the
car flex under me. I have owned sports cars--they were small-- and I know
there is no excuse for such a shoddy product.

Most people don't know good from bad as long as it has a nice coat of paint.
How can the uninformed make informed decisions?
The public is being crucified and all they know is they feel pain. Clueless
by and large.

End of rant
Kirk

-Original Message-
From: Richard Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:24 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


It looks like everyone is debating a self correcting problem, at least
on the fuel/oil use.  If  we don't want to use the oil products, they
are going to run out of them sooner or later-- use them faster.
If the green house deal comes about, it will likely kill most the
population off-- less people messing up the world. Like with Mt. St.
Helen's, nature will correct itself, even if people don't.  If a person
wants to correct a problem, you don't start by howling at the moon, you
 look down to see if your own foot in in the mud and start from there.
I guess it would just about be self correcting on drunk drivers, but
there, I would help it along by making it murder 1 if a drunk driver
killed anyone beyond themselves.
In my research of the last few months on bio diesel, it looks like the
biggest hindrance to getting anything off the ground is EPA or other
government regulations.  Why would anything basically being a food
product  and not being consumed as an edible be regulated by anyone.
 There are other ways of controlling bad end products, around here the
business won't last long, just by word of mouth.  Other places, they
like to sue until the lawyers are satisfied justice is done.



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RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread Anton Berteaux

How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around
endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special
license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license?
 MOSTLY joking)
anton

-Original Message-
From: studio53 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:14 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according
to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8)
ref http://

Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design|
stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED]

__
This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information
and is intended solely for the
attention and use of the named addressee(s).
~~~

- Original Message -
From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [snip]
 
  Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel
  economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy
  led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic
  deaths.

 I challenge him to prove this claim.

 The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of
 additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into
 conflict with older, heaver vehicles.  It's like saying they have to be
 built heavy because they've always been built heavy.  With an attitude
 like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy.  Or safety.

 Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=-
 is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety.  Much more so than the
 false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely
 to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles.
 Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on.


 AP
 --
 Aviation is more than a hobby.  It is more than a job.  It is more than
 a career.  Aviation is a way of life.
 A second language for the world:  www.esperanto.com
 Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net


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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread Greg and April


- Original Message -
From: Anton Berteaux 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 15:05
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around
 endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special
 license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license?
  MOSTLY joking)
 anton

I have a better idea, while not everyone needs a small car, many people need
a larger car / truck / SUV, so why don't we just outlaw all smaller cars, as
being to unsafe to be on the road with larger vehicals, that are needed.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread greg

that was tried in the 1930`s
- Original Message -
From: studio53 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced
according
 to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8)
 ref http://

 Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design|
 stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 __
 This information , and any attachments may contain confidential
information
 and is intended solely for the
 attention and use of the named addressee(s).

~~~

 - Original Message -
 From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM
 Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms


  Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [snip]
  
   Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel
   economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy
   led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic
   deaths.
 
  I challenge him to prove this claim.
 
  The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of
  additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into
  conflict with older, heaver vehicles.  It's like saying they have to be
  built heavy because they've always been built heavy.  With an attitude
  like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy.  Or safety.
 
  Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=-
  is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety.  Much more so than the
  false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely
  to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles.
  Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on.
 
 
  AP
  --
  Aviation is more than a hobby.  It is more than a job.  It is more than
  a career.  Aviation is a way of life.
  A second language for the world:  www.esperanto.com
  Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net
 
 
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
 
 



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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread studio53

Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according
to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8)
ref http://

Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design|
stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED]

__
This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information
and is intended solely for the
attention and use of the named addressee(s).
~~~

- Original Message -
From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [snip]
 
  Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel
  economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy
  led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic
  deaths.

 I challenge him to prove this claim.

 The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of
 additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into
 conflict with older, heaver vehicles.  It's like saying they have to be
 built heavy because they've always been built heavy.  With an attitude
 like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy.  Or safety.

 Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=-
 is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety.  Much more so than the
 false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely
 to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles.
 Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on.


 AP
 --
 Aviation is more than a hobby.  It is more than a job.  It is more than
 a career.  Aviation is a way of life.
 A second language for the world:  www.esperanto.com
 Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net


 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
 To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread Greg and April

Fine by me.


- Original Message -
From: Anton Berteaux 
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 16:25
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 and requiring all citizens to carry guns, so that noone is at a
 disadvantage.
 anton

 -Original Message-
 From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:16 PM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms



 - Original Message -
 From: Anton Berteaux 
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 15:05
 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms


  How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around
  endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special
  license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license?
   MOSTLY joking)
  anton
 
 I have a better idea, while not everyone needs a small car, many people
need
 a larger car / truck / SUV, so why don't we just outlaw all smaller cars,
as
 being to unsafe to be on the road with larger vehicals, that are needed.

 Greg H.



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RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread Anton Berteaux

and outlaw biccles and require children to be transported in reinforced
steel cges, have separate and protected pedestrian ways, with all other
pedestrian acces denied as being unsafe, due to the large size and speed of
cars.
anton

-Original Message-
From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:53 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


Fine by me.


- Original Message -
From: Anton Berteaux 
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 16:25
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 and requiring all citizens to carry guns, so that noone is at a
 disadvantage.
 anton

 -Original Message-
 From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:16 PM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms



 - Original Message -
 From: Anton Berteaux 
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 15:05
 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms


  How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around
  endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special
  license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license?
   MOSTLY joking)
  anton
 
 I have a better idea, while not everyone needs a small car, many people
need
 a larger car / truck / SUV, so why don't we just outlaw all smaller cars,
as
 being to unsafe to be on the road with larger vehicals, that are needed.

 Greg H.



 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread r . p . kurz

how about a class action suit against people who want to 
further limit the rights of people who want to do as 
they please. isn't the government doing enough damage to 
our
personal liberties already. i am picking up a 2000lbs.
stainless steel tank tommorrow to process biodiesel,
would you rather strap it on top of your honda or use
my dodge 4x4 pickup. we need real solutions for a real 
world. not a flame just an opinion. opinions are like 
noses- everyone has one and thinks theirs is best.
  kindest regards, roger
 How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around
 endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special
 license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license?
  MOSTLY joking)
 anton
 
 -Original Message-
 From: studio53 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:14 PM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms
 
 
 Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according
 to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8)
 ref http://
 
 Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design|
 stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 __
 This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information
 and is intended solely for the
 attention and use of the named addressee(s).
 ~~~
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM
 Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms
 
 
  Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [snip]
  
   Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel
   economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy
   led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic
   deaths.
 
  I challenge him to prove this claim.
 
  The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of
  additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into
  conflict with older, heaver vehicles.  It's like saying they have to be
  built heavy because they've always been built heavy.  With an attitude
  like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy.  Or safety.
 
  Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=-
  is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety.  Much more so than the
  false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely
  to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles.
  Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on.
 
 
  AP
  --
  Aviation is more than a hobby.  It is more than a job.  It is more than
  a career.  Aviation is a way of life.
  A second language for the world:  www.esperanto.com
  Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net
 
 
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
 To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
 
 
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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-14 Thread Appal Energy

Actually, I'd rather put it on a trailer and haul it behind my '86 Golf
diesel.

Funny thing about trailers, you can unhitch 'em.

Good fortune on your upgrade!

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


how about a class action suit against people who want to
further limit the rights of people who want to do as
they please. isn't the government doing enough damage to
our
personal liberties already. i am picking up a 2000lbs.
stainless steel tank tommorrow to process biodiesel,
would you rather strap it on top of your honda or use
my dodge 4x4 pickup. we need real solutions for a real
world. not a flame just an opinion. opinions are like
noses- everyone has one and thinks theirs is best.
  kindest regards, roger
 How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around
 endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special
 license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license?
  MOSTLY joking)
 anton

 -Original Message-
 From: studio53 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:14 PM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms


 Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced
according
 to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8)
 ref http://

 Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design|
 stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 __
 This information , and any attachments may contain confidential
information
 and is intended solely for the
 attention and use of the named addressee(s).

~~~

 - Original Message -
 From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM
 Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms


  Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [snip]
  
   Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel
   economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy
   led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic
   deaths.
 
  I challenge him to prove this claim.
 
  The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of
  additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into
  conflict with older, heaver vehicles.  It's like saying they have to be
  built heavy because they've always been built heavy.  With an attitude
  like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy.  Or safety.
 
  Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=-
  is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety.  Much more so than the
  false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely
  to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles.
  Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on.
 
 
  AP
  --
  Aviation is more than a hobby.  It is more than a job.  It is more than
  a career.  Aviation is a way of life.
  A second language for the world:  www.esperanto.com
  Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net
 
 
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
 
 



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 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-13 Thread Richard Morgan

It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to 
do is change the system of public transport.  Instead of charging a set 
amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops.  A 
person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get 
clipped for a buck or more for a short distance.  Wouldn't it be better 
to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000 
cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between 
points.  Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten 
minutes apart instead of  every twenty or whatever.

Keith Addison wrote:

http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/03/03132002/ap_46655.asp
- 3/13/2002 - ENN.com
Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists 
against soccer moms

Wednesday, March 13, 2002

By H. Josef Hebert, Associated Press

WASHINGTON - One side sees improved auto fuel economy as key to the 
nation's energy security. The other side predicts an end to 
affordable and safe SUVs, minivans, and pickup trucks.

The debate over how best to cut the amount of gasoline consumed on 
U.S. highways took on an emotionally charged tone Tuesday, as the 
Senate began considering a 50 percent boost in auto fuel efficiency.

Critics of the proposal argue the mileage requirements, which would 
be phased in over 13 years, can't be met without making cars smaller, 
lighter, and less safe and limiting consumers' choices on the kinds 
of vehicles they are able to buy. They offered an alternative that 
would require the Transportation Department to increase auto fuel 
efficiency within two years but set no specific standard.

This would do nothing to improve fuel efficiency, said senators 
seeking the 50 percent increase.

American women love their SUVs and minivans ... because of their 
safety, proclaimed Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., who warned that the 
wrath of soccer moms would be heard if the Senate approved the 
tougher standards. Another senator said motorists would end up in 
glorified golf carts.

John Kerry, D-Mass., sponsor of the fuel economy measure, called such 
predictions Alice in Wonderland comments that ignore that we are 
going backward in reducing the amount of fuel used by motorists. 
It's a scare tactic on soccer moms, complained Kerry.

Kerry wants automakers to increase the average mileage of their new 
fleets to 36 miles per gallon by 2015, about 50 percent from current 
federal standards. He insists they have the technology to do it 
without making vehicles smaller or less safe or sacrificing the 
popular SUVs and minivans.

Nonsense, argue his critics. In an opening salvo Tuesday, they 
enlisted the fear of retribution from soccer moms and pickup 
pops, who they maintain, would no longer be able to buy the vehicles 
they love. And, they argued, it would mean lost auto industry jobs as 
U.S. manufacturers find it harder to compete with foreign producers.

Supporters of the new measures argued that it's impossible to address 
the broader issue of energy conservation without dramatically 
reducing the amount of fuel guzzled on America's highways. Passenger 
vehicles account for 40 percent of all the oil used today, they said.

While auto fuel efficiency increased dramatically in the late 1970s 
and early '80s, there has been no progress since 1988, when the motor 
fleet reached a peak of just under 26 mpg. The average for all 
vehicles was 24 mpg in 2000, about what it was 22 years ago.

The primary reason has been the huge popularity of sport utility 
vehicles (SUVs) and minivans, which are subject to less stringent 
fuel economy requirements and average about 20 mpg, as opposed to 28 
mpg for passenger cars, according to the Environmental Protection 
Agency. These vehicles, along with pickups, now account for nearly 
half of all vehicles sold.

The proposal crafted by Kerry and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., would 
close the gap between cars and SUVs in addition to boosting overall 
mileage of vehicle fleets. In an attempt to garner additional 
support, Kerry said he is considering exempting larger pickups. No 
one in America will have to drive a smaller car, insisted Kerry. 
The technology is available today to meet the higher standard.

Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Mo., said larger vehicles would be 
sacrificed. About the only way we could get there is to put 
everybody into glorified golf carts, said Bond. You'd have families 
picking up their kids in subcompacts. Bond and Sen. Carl Levin, 
D-Mich., offered a more industry-friendly proposal that would require 
the Transportation Department to increase fuel economy requirements 
but would set no specific standard. It requires the agency to 
consider safety, job losses, industry competition, and energy 
conservation in crafting a new rule.

As the Senate debate unfolded Tuesday, both sides cited a study last 
year on fuel economy by the National Academy of Sciences.

Kerry said the study concluded that 

Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-13 Thread Greg and April


- Original Message -
From: Richard Morgan 
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 09:00
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to
 do is change the system of public transport.  Instead of charging a set
 amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops.  A
 person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get
 clipped for a buck or more for a short distance.  Wouldn't it be better
 to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000
 cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between
 points.  Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten
 minutes apart instead of  every twenty or whatever.

Yea, they run about once every 45 min to an hour here, and even then they
don't make any garentees about time and service.   One time I needed the bus
to get to an interview across town, twenty min. if I had my car, I left 2
hrs early, half way thru, the ride, had to switch to a cab because with 30
min left, I was barley halfway to were I needed to be. I then took the bus
back to the interview, and it took 3 hrs. to get home, and this is a small
town.

I'll never ride a bus again if I have a choice.

Greg H.


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-13 Thread Rawls Moore

I am sorry to hear about the poor bus system Greg.  I live in Portland, OR
and the bus system here is great.  I take the bus to school, work, play, and
everything inbetween.  The bus system seems to run on time + or - 5 minutes
at the most.  The main problem here, in my opinion, is that the
transportation system doesn't use any type of biofuel and honestly doesn't
seem that interested.  I used to live in CO and some of the local buses ran
off of ethanol atleast.  They even had a bus that went to many of the ski
resorts on the weekend. In college we used to fight for the passes and the
bus system couldn't keep up with the demand.

I live outside the city so I like the fact that bus system doesn't charge on
mileage(!) but I agree that to many it seems like a pain to pay a dollar to
head up to the store.  I don't know if it is true or not, but my dad used to
tell me that to run a car (on top of the subsidized price we pay for gas and
the environmental damage it does) it costs around $1 to $2 a mile to run on
upkeep and insurance.  If this is the case, then buses could be cheaper, we
just don't realize it.

In the end though, if buses aren't reliable then people wont use them.

-rawls





A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
hog, sail a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build
a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate,
act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
  - R. A. Heinlein

-Original Message-
From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms



- Original Message -
From: Richard Morgan 
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 09:00
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to
 do is change the system of public transport.  Instead of charging a set
 amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops.  A
 person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get
 clipped for a buck or more for a short distance.  Wouldn't it be better
 to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000
 cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between
 points.  Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten
 minutes apart instead of  every twenty or whatever.

Yea, they run about once every 45 min to an hour here, and even then they
don't make any garentees about time and service.   One time I needed the bus
to get to an interview across town, twenty min. if I had my car, I left 2
hrs early, half way thru, the ride, had to switch to a cab because with 30
min left, I was barley halfway to were I needed to be. I then took the bus
back to the interview, and it took 3 hrs. to get home, and this is a small
town.

I'll never ride a bus again if I have a choice.

Greg H.


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-13 Thread Greg and April


- Original Message -
From: Rawls Moore 
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 18:09
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
conservationists against soccer moms


 I am sorry to hear about the poor bus system Greg.  I live in Portland, OR
 and the bus system here is great.  I take the bus to school, work, play,
and
 everything inbetween.  The bus system seems to run on time + or - 5
minutes
 at the most.

What area of Portland? I lived in the Tigard area just the other side of the
Beverton city limit, for 18 months, just a few years ago.

I know that Portland has a fairly good bus system.


 I live outside the city so I like the fact that bus system doesn't charge
on
 mileage(!) but I agree that to many it seems like a pain to pay a dollar
to
 head up to the store.  I don't know if it is true or not, but my dad used
to
 tell me that to run a car (on top of the subsidized price we pay for gas
and
 the environmental damage it does) it costs around $1 to $2 a mile to run
on
 upkeep and insurance.  If this is the case, then buses could be cheaper,
we
 just don't realize it.


Around here, last time I road the bus, think that it cost about a doller,
I've heard a rumor that it's up to 1.50 or so.  at that rate, a car is a
better deal even at $1.50 a mile, because of all the time saved, if for
nothing else.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms

2002-03-13 Thread Harmon Seaver

   I don't think that's a valid arguement against buses anyway, most places 
have long-term bus passes you
can buy, or are given to you by school, welfare, jobfare, etc. They aren't that 
much, if you had any
interest in regular bus use, of course you'd buy one, then it makes no 
difference if you're going 3 blocks
or 100. But if it's only 3 blks, why not walk anyway? 


On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:09:33PM -0800, Rawls Moore wrote:
 I am sorry to hear about the poor bus system Greg.  I live in Portland, OR
 and the bus system here is great.  I take the bus to school, work, play, and
 everything inbetween.  The bus system seems to run on time + or - 5 minutes
 at the most.  The main problem here, in my opinion, is that the
 transportation system doesn't use any type of biofuel and honestly doesn't
 seem that interested.  I used to live in CO and some of the local buses ran
 off of ethanol atleast.  They even had a bus that went to many of the ski
 resorts on the weekend. In college we used to fight for the passes and the
 bus system couldn't keep up with the demand.
 
 I live outside the city so I like the fact that bus system doesn't charge on
 mileage(!) but I agree that to many it seems like a pain to pay a dollar to
 head up to the store.  I don't know if it is true or not, but my dad used to
 tell me that to run a car (on top of the subsidized price we pay for gas and
 the environmental damage it does) it costs around $1 to $2 a mile to run on
 upkeep and insurance.  If this is the case, then buses could be cheaper, we
 just don't realize it.
 
 In the end though, if buses aren't reliable then people wont use them.
 
 -rawls
 
 
 
 
 
 A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
 hog, sail a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build
 a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate,
 act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
 computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die gallantly.
 Specialization is for insects.
   - R. A. Heinlein
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms
 
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Richard Morgan 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 09:00
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting
 conservationists against soccer moms
 
 
  It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to
  do is change the system of public transport.  Instead of charging a set
  amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops.  A
  person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get
  clipped for a buck or more for a short distance.  Wouldn't it be better
  to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000
  cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between
  points.  Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten
  minutes apart instead of  every twenty or whatever.
 
 Yea, they run about once every 45 min to an hour here, and even then they
 don't make any garentees about time and service.   One time I needed the bus
 to get to an interview across town, twenty min. if I had my car, I left 2
 hrs early, half way thru, the ride, had to switch to a cab because with 30
 min left, I was barley halfway to were I needed to be. I then took the bus
 back to the interview, and it took 3 hrs. to get home, and this is a small
 town.
 
 I'll never ride a bus again if I have a choice.
 
 Greg H.
 
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
 To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
 
 
 
 
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 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
 

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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