Edward Franks wrote:
1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?
Nope. :) Space War was (circa 1960). MIT students meet the PDP-1
and the cathode-ray tube.
I meant PERSONAL computer. Adventure was playable on CPM machines if memory
serves; it was certainly the first game I
Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
Then again, if you want to invent new terminology, that's your business I
suppose.
No, it isn't, which is why this entire discussion was initiated. You (and
everyone else here) will be happy to know that I am fixing the system at
MobyGames (the first and hopefully
amongst the other genres listed.
Stuart
-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 7:17 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
Then again, if you want to invent new terminology
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 06:14 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
Edward Franks wrote:
1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?
Nope. :) Space War was (circa 1960). MIT students meet the
PDP-1
and the cathode-ray tube.
I meant PERSONAL computer. Adventure was playable on
Jim Leonard wrote:
Jagged Alliance: Strategy, subgenres Role-Playing.
Birthright: Same as Jagged Alliance, with Medieval Fantasy thrown in.
Europa 1400: The Guild: Strategy, subgenres Managerial.
I can agree on the first two, but I'd think this one could be Adventure :)
King of Dragon Pass:
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 05:26 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip
You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think
about
them before coming up with a rebuttal. But first let me pose some
situations
and questions:
1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?
Stuart Feldhamer schrieb:
Jim,
Your system is very interesting but I don't like it. Maybe according to YOUR
definition of Adventure it encompasses all fantasy-style gaming, but this is
not the commonly accepted definition of the genre. As I see it, adventures
are games where the focus is
Marco Thorek wrote:
Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for
Sierra-like games. As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever
remain in our system as what they really are: Interactive Fiction with
Graphics. This puts them in the same category as Mask of the
Jim Leonard schrieb:
It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
Hm,
Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and
nouns
you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this
time
the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very
specific two-word combo). The pick words from a list-style
Jim Leonard wrote:
What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were
good enough to force people through the awful interface.
Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful interface? I admit the first
Jim Leonard wrote:
Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
Jagged Alliance, Birthright.
Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of Dragon Pass :)
--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:01 AM, John Romero wrote:
[Snip]
The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early
double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used
that graphics mode. Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16
colors. Mixed-mode graphics
At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character
development aspects of the game and simply labeling a game where shooting
occurs as Action would lump Space Invaders, Doom and Tomb Raider into the
same
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your
decisions, it's
not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that
great
Pedro Quaresma wrote:
Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful
interface? I admit the first version of the SCUMM system (Zak Mcracken,
Maniac Mansion) was poor, but the one used on the Monkeys and DoTT is, IMHO,
in the very least pretty decent. And so was
To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
input
using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns
(items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or
noun-only
input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction.
This
Edward Franks wrote:
From a game developer's viewpoint, when or what things made the IBM PC
the platform of choice over the Apple IIs, C64s, etc.? I know that on
the business side of programming the common wisdom is that 640K RAM was
the key (VisiCalc vs. Lotus 1-2-3). Was it the
Pedro Quaresma wrote:
Jim Leonard wrote:
Trust me, I can classify them. :) Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
have. Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
Jagged Alliance, Birthright.
Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of
Dragon Pass :)
Karl Kuras wrote:
At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character
development aspects
Sorry, I may have forgotten to add subgenre Role-Playing, which should be
there.
of the game and simply
Edward Franks wrote:
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your
decisions, it's
not an adventure game. People confuse this a
Karl Kuras wrote:
Adventures progress through decision, not action. Since you can't
significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions,
it's
not an adventure game. People confuse this a lot; they think that great
storytelling equals adventure game, which is
Yech, it seems like Gamedex is confusing genre with plot.
Jim Leonard wrote:
Karl Kuras wrote:
To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
input
using text labels must be maintained. If the verbs (actions) and nouns
(items) are replaced by icons or
Marco Thorek wrote:
Well, according to Moby it belongs to six genres.
Two main, four sub. Sorry if that's not obvious in our presentation; I should
probably mention to Brian that our main genres should be highlighted
differently.
I thought about a game
belonging to one genre, like in the
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Edward Franks wrote:
The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as
a
basic building block in place of Adventure. The same justifications
work for either. The two are so close together (more than
and not
a sub-genre. A game can have this as its only focus and be fun. See Telengard,
Rogue, Temple of Apshai, NetHack, etc.
Hugh
---Original Message---
From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01/22/03 03:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Hugh and Edward
Karl Kuras wrote:
Now your main gripe seems to be with the fact that you can't just be in a
room and say I want to do X. This was at first mainly a technical problem
of doing pathfinding routines (notice that later Sierra and Lucasarts games
all take care of this for you automatically
concerns. I know that Karl is a big Amiga fan,
and they might have had two very different experiences playing the same game.
Hugh
---Original Message---
From: John Romero [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01/21/03 01:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
:39 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Starting in 1986, I played most of these games on the Atari
ST and/or
Amiga. I seem to recall the graphics being improved over the
Apple/PC/C-64 versions, and I recall using a mouse. Has
anybody compared the originals to the Amiga/ST
Sadly, most PC-to-Amiga conversions (I've never used an ST, sadly) were
slower
than the original. PC programmers were contracted to port to Amiga
instead of
hiring Amiga people to do the conversions. Or, if Amiga people were
contracted, they had a hard time porting 8086 assembler over to
Karl Kuras wrote:
I didn't know that the SCI version was rare... the Amiga and ST ports both
used that graphic set... most likely due to the porting happening later.
No, the AGI version was rare. The SCI version was pimped heavily because it
was the first interpreter to allow external music
Jim Leonard schrieb:
At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to somehow
*define* the words adventure game to mean Sierra games (the Quest games,
etc.)
Well, I can imagine. I remember having vivid discussions over at
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure over this
Jim Leonard schrieb:
At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to
somehow
*define* the words adventure game to mean Sierra games (the Quest
games,
etc.)
I always called that type of game a Graphic Adventure, mainly because it's
what Lucasarts put as a label on
Jim Leonard schrieb:
I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a
3D perspective. To contrast, the Quest games let you move something in
front of or behind another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D
than Mystery House.
I remember that back in
Marco Thorek wrote:
Was there ever a special subcategory named to classify the later Sierra
and Lucasfilm adventures?
At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to somehow
*define* the words adventure game to mean Sierra games (the Quest games,
etc.) Others want to
Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
First of all, there was the novelty. At first it was pretty cool to be able
to see your character on the screen.
That is 90% of it right there. I can't see any other reason.
Second, the animations. Even in their first game, KQ1, Sierra animated stuff
like
Hugh Falk wrote:
Sure, I wouldn't call it 3D either, but I would call it quasi-3D, which is
why I asked for a definition (since the default definition would be almost
but not quite 3D). One could argue that true 3D is not possible on a 2D
monitor.
One could argue the game wasn't 3D at all.
://www.adventurecollective.com/reviews/kq1.htm
- John
-Original Message-
From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Sure, I wouldn't call it 3D either, but I would call it
quasi
On Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 03:09 PM, John Romero wrote:
[Snip]
(3) Your question Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D
adventure game released for the IBM line? The answer: King's Quest
1 was the first GAME ever released for the new IBM PC back in 1984.
The
release date on
(1) The first adventure game with text + graphics was Mystery House.
All adventure games before Mystery House were purely text.
http://www.xyzzynews.com/xyzzy.7f.html
Don't put too much stock in anything in XYZZYnews... I'm the one who wrote
this, back when I was first getting into game
PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 1:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
(1) The first adventure game with text + graphics was Mystery House.
All adventure games before Mystery House were purely text.
http://www.xyzzynews.com/xyzzy
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game
PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
were already hundreds of game titles available
Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
would be difficult to prove this...
Stuart
-Original Message-
From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 9:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
would be difficult to prove this...
Hardly -- I remember playing Mask of the Sun in 1983, a full year before
King's Quest. The very first interactive fiction game with graphics would be
pretty
Chris Newman wrote:
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
If you are defining quasi-3D adventure game as the stereotypical Sierra
game
I was talking about Mystery House, not King's Quest...
-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
Supposedly it was the first text
Hugh Falk wrote:
Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure? You could say that Mystery
House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).
I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a
Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
I was talking about Mystery House, not King's Quest...
Whoops -- my bad. :) It was the first commercially successful one, but I
agree it seems foolish to call it the *first* interactive fiction with
graphics. But until another is found, it wins.
--
Jim Leonard
, January 17, 2003 11:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Chris Newman wrote:
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line
Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's Quest games? Anyone who likes
them, please shed some light on the subject.
Ok, I guess I have to throw my hat into this ring... As a huge fan of both
the old text/still graphic adventures AND the Sierra/Lucasart style games,
they both have their own
PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Hugh Falk wrote:
Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure? You could say that Mystery
House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).
I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
made its debut with Sierra's
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
were already hundreds of game titles available
, January 16, 2003 5:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
were already hundreds
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