Re: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
Josh Lulewicz wrote: So I am reading correctly that these FDI files only work with emulators? Yes, but in the future that may not be the case. The point is to archive them now into a fully documented the file format so that the information is not lost when the disk dies. What if you don't use an emulator? I don't because when I play my games I must have my MT-32!! Then back up your disks with a copy-protection-aware program on original old hardware (like, a 386 and a copy of CopyWrite or CopyIIPC) or use an Option Board. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
[SWCollect] Preserving original games
At 13:22 15/03/2004 -0600, you wrote: I totally agree. Howard I don't think distributing this image of your is a good idea and I encourage to think twice and not do it. I didn't plan to do this e-mail as early, but here we go ;-) I hope Jim will comment on this. As you may know, I am the author of Disk2FDI, a small .COM DOS utility which took about one *full* year of development to be able to make 100% accurate disk images of *any* floppy disk, at least with the appropriate disk drive of course. From this, you can understand that I'm really serious about *preserving* old games on floppies (but of course not limited to floppies), so that the *original* version of games, the ones you people are collecting, are preserved *intact* for the ages to come. I am only a few days from finishing a fully working version of Disk2FDI, then will start imaging any original game I have or may find. I will also scan all documentation, box, disks, etc. at 600 dpi. I think the motivation behind this obvious: the scanned original material will not age, the FDIed floppy disks will not get corrupt, nor will the WAVed tapes, and the dumped cartridges. The digital version of the game will be as close to the original as can be as of 2004. On the other hand, I completely agree to what both C.E. Forman and Josh are talking about. I have read the Eyal Katz case on vintage-sierra, and was shocked to see this. The project I'm talking about is in fact very similar and tightly linked to what mobygames.com is, so what I'd like to suggest is that both Jim and I conduct this project of preserving the old (and the not-so-old) games. A few more members could join the team, but it cannot be too big for the reason explained. So, in the case of such a rare game as Drash, I would suggest that Josh makes scans of all materials, but only send the files to either Jim or me (or both), but no one else, and I'm sure Jim will join me to completely *guarantee* that these files will *not* be spread to anyone in their 600 dpi form. Of course, mobygames could someday display any box/doc/disk at a downgraded quality (say 75 dpi), with the usual MobyGames mark on them. In the future, I think it would be very nice if many (or all) of you could contribute to the project with scans, FDI files, WAV files, etc... The Disk2FDI registration is not an issue in our case, I can ease the problem ;-) Please reply with any comment, as this is a very open discussion. -josh BTW, if I'm not mistaken, you are running vintage-sierra.com. In this case, would you also consider selling your 1983 version of King's Quest PCjr on eBay. I'd be happy to be the high bidder ;-) Vincent. I'd just like to (as always) voice my concern about how widely these images would get distributed. Not that I'm against preserving it, I'm just worried about it falling into the wrong hands and we get inundated with fakes being sold as originals. Before actually sending the game to the high bidder, do you think you could completely preserve it? There are so few copies that any image of the original tape is *very* important. Nobody knows where this tape will go and if it can be properly preserved after you sell it. Also, the game will have another trip to the high bidder, which can even more damage the game... What you would need to do is to scan *all* documentation, box, tape (both sides), etc. at 600 dpi. The most important is to record both sides of the tape at a very high rate (44100 Hz, 16 bit), with proper sound level adjustment. Do you have the hardware to do this? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
Vincent, I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. I am very much for preserving our games so that they may be played for years to come without the fear of using unstable/unpredictable floppy disks. I am, however, against distributing these images/backups/etc on a large scale. Personally, I believe that given the right tools and materials a game like Mt. Drash (in fact any older game as we have seen with Eyal) could be reproduced and sold as an original. Obviously Eyal was sloppy and didn't have the disk images so he just put garbage on the disks but given original images I hate to think about what is possible. I have been backing up my collection with a program called winima40. It seems to work pretty well for making images of disks. I look forward to when yours is released so that I may try it as well. I do, however, keep these images to myself and for my own use. I know it sucks and I don't want to sound like an old miser, because I would love for everyone to enjoy these games in the way I have. But at this point 85% of the Sierra disks you can get off ebay still work so if people want to play these games they are welcome to get them from there. By they way does anyone actually know what the lifespan of a floppy is? I read somewhere once that it was supposed to deteriorate after about 10 years. My Mystery House disk is 20+ years old and it still boots... What about hardware?? I do not look forward to the day my 486 (nicknamed Sierra 1) doesn't turn on Anyway I think this is a good discussion and I would like to hear everyone's opinions. -josh Vincent - I do run vintage-sierra.com unfortunately the '83 KQ is not for sale at this time :( I will keep you in mind though if it ever is! -Original Message- From: Vincent Joguin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Preserving original games At 13:22 15/03/2004 -0600, you wrote: I totally agree. Howard I don't think distributing this image of your is a good idea and I encourage to think twice and not do it. I didn't plan to do this e-mail as early, but here we go ;-) I hope Jim will comment on this. As you may know, I am the author of Disk2FDI, a small .COM DOS utility which took about one *full* year of development to be able to make 100% accurate disk images of *any* floppy disk, at least with the appropriate disk drive of course. From this, you can understand that I'm really serious about *preserving* old games on floppies (but of course not limited to floppies), so that the *original* version of games, the ones you people are collecting, are preserved *intact* for the ages to come. I am only a few days from finishing a fully working version of Disk2FDI, then will start imaging any original game I have or may find. I will also scan all documentation, box, disks, etc. at 600 dpi. I think the motivation behind this obvious: the scanned original material will not age, the FDIed floppy disks will not get corrupt, nor will the WAVed tapes, and the dumped cartridges. The digital version of the game will be as close to the original as can be as of 2004. On the other hand, I completely agree to what both C.E. Forman and Josh are talking about. I have read the Eyal Katz case on vintage-sierra, and was shocked to see this. The project I'm talking about is in fact very similar and tightly linked to what mobygames.com is, so what I'd like to suggest is that both Jim and I conduct this project of preserving the old (and the not-so-old) games. A few more members could join the team, but it cannot be too big for the reason explained. So, in the case of such a rare game as Drash, I would suggest that Josh makes scans of all materials, but only send the files to either Jim or me (or both), but no one else, and I'm sure Jim will join me to completely *guarantee* that these files will *not* be spread to anyone in their 600 dpi form. Of course, mobygames could someday display any box/doc/disk at a downgraded quality (say 75 dpi), with the usual MobyGames mark on them. In the future, I think it would be very nice if many (or all) of you could contribute to the project with scans, FDI files, WAV files, etc... The Disk2FDI registration is not an issue in our case, I can ease the problem ;-) Please reply with any comment, as this is a very open discussion. -josh BTW, if I'm not mistaken, you are running vintage-sierra.com. In this case, would you also consider selling your 1983 version of King's Quest PCjr on eBay. I'd be happy to be the high bidder ;-) Vincent. I'd just like to (as always) voice my concern about how widely these images would get distributed. Not that I'm against preserving it, I'm just worried about it falling into the wrong hands and we get inundated with fakes being sold as originals. Before actually sending the game to the high bidder, do you think you could completely preserve it? There are so few
Re: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
Josh Lulewicz wrote: I have been backing up my collection with a program called winima40. It WinImage only makes images of unprotected disks. If you have used it to make any images of protected disks (any game made before 1990), your images are useless. By they way does anyone actually know what the lifespan of a floppy is? I read somewhere once that it was supposed to deteriorate after about 10 years. My Mystery House disk is 20+ years old and it still boots... It ranges based on how much information is packed into how large a physical surface area. 3.5 high-density disks 10-15 years; typical 5.25 low-density disks 20+ years. I myself have a Microsoft Flight Simulator (PC, 1982) that still boots fine. The label has come off the disk due to the amount of oil passed on from fingers and hundreds of hours of use, but hey, the disk still works :) What about hardware?? I do not look forward to the day my 486 (nicknamed Sierra 1) doesn't turn on ebay. 486s are $25 or even less. Shipping is the only gotcha. But I do feel your concern; I have two Tandy 1000s, two IBM PCjrs, three IBM PC 5150s (the original IBM PC), etc. because I have a crawlspace I can stuff them into. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
Jim Leonard wrote: WinImage only makes images of unprotected disks. If you have used it to make any images of protected disks (any game made before 1990), your images are useless. Wow! Interesting, I didn't know that! Great... :( -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
On Mar 15, 2004, at 3:19 PM, Josh Lulewicz wrote: Jim Leonard wrote: WinImage only makes images of unprotected disks. If you have used it to make any images of protected disks (any game made before 1990), your images are useless. Wow! Interesting, I didn't know that! Great... :( Copy protection bites in many ways. :sigh: -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
So I am reading correctly that these FDI files only work with emulators? What if you don't use an emulator? I don't because when I play my games I must have my MT-32!! -josh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 4:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Preserving original games Edward Franks wrote: Wow! Interesting, I didn't know that! Great... :( Copy protection bites in many ways. :sigh: This is why Central Point Option Boards used to auction for $130-$200 (and why I have six). You can use them to image and back up protected software to blank disks, protection intact. Unfortunately, the Option Board is very finicky (won't work on anything faster than 386/40), and it is not 100% perfect (there are still a handful of games, about 20, that can't be copied with it). But it was my pride and joy from 1987-1990. Vincent's FDI project is fundamentally different from the OB in the following ways: - You can NOT use it to make duplicates (it has full reading but it is currently impossible to write back) - It reads nearly ANY diskette with nearly ANY format and ANY protection (Option Board is limited to protected PC disks and unprotected Apple/Mac/C64/Atari ST disks), and saves every single relevant bit into a file for perfect archival - The file it creates is called an .FDI file, which is a documented file format, so that current and future emulator programmers can easily add support for the files. Currently WinUAE supports the .FDI format, which Vincent's utility creates. So you can take original copy-protected Amiga games, dump them to .FDI (on a PC, no less!), and use those files with the WinUAE emulator. Hopefully as the years roll on more emulators will support FDI files. You can learn more about Disk2FDI at www.oldskool.org (there is a Disk2FDI link on the main page). -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Preserving original games
I have to agree with Vincent. If we start living in fear of preserving the games in our collections digitally because of the Eyal's out there, then the terrorists have won. (sorry, couldnt resist) I am only a few days from finishing a fully working version of Disk2FDI, then will start imaging any original game I have or may find. I will also scan all documentation, box, disks, etc. at 600 dpi. I think the motivation behind this obvious: the scanned original material will not age, the FDIed floppy disks will not get corrupt, nor will the WAVed tapes, and the dumped cartridges. The digital version of the game will be as close to the original as can be as of 2004. On the other hand, I completely agree to what both C.E. Forman and Josh are talking about. I have read the Eyal Katz case on vintage-sierra, and was shocked to see this. -- -- Howard Feldman, Author of The Search for Freedom A Computer Fantasy Role-Playing Game Visit its Homepage at http://home.golden.net/~feldman/SearchForFreedom/ Visit the Computer and Book RPG Museum at http://vgmuseum.chaoticmonkey.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
