Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Andrey Borzenkov arvidj...@gmail.com wrote: commit f4ce2b3e5ce93b83f14f8785e205ebb5a9b8c1df Author: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net Date: Mon Jan 21 01:02:53 2013 +0100 efi: add efi boot generator that automatically mounts the ESP to /boot Has something changed? ESP has always been mounted on /boot/efi, and mounting it on /boot is plain wrong; ESP is shared resource for all OS installed, not private space to place files of this specific installation. The Linux kernel acts as an EFI boot loader, if copied to the ESP it can be directly executed by the EFI firmware. The initramfs and the kernel live in a vendor sub-directory in the ESP and are read directly by EFI code, and there is no need for grub2, any other additional filesystem driver, raid, network setup, or whatever additional code people think they would need to bring up all sorts of systems. The kernel itself with the initramfs can boot everything, has all the filesystem access which is ever needed, there is no need for anything else on EFI machines. Even the craziest setups can boot directly out of the firmware that way. It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. And plain wrong is the sick game which is called grub2, not mounting the EFI partition at /boot. :) Kay ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
'Twas brillig, and Kay Sievers at 21/01/13 11:03 did gyre and gimble: On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Andrey Borzenkov arvidj...@gmail.com wrote: commit f4ce2b3e5ce93b83f14f8785e205ebb5a9b8c1df Author: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net Date: Mon Jan 21 01:02:53 2013 +0100 efi: add efi boot generator that automatically mounts the ESP to /boot Has something changed? ESP has always been mounted on /boot/efi, and mounting it on /boot is plain wrong; ESP is shared resource for all OS installed, not private space to place files of this specific installation. The Linux kernel acts as an EFI boot loader, if copied to the ESP it can be directly executed by the EFI firmware. The initramfs and the kernel live in a vendor sub-directory in the ESP and are read directly by EFI code, and there is no need for grub2, any other additional filesystem driver, raid, network setup, or whatever additional code people think they would need to bring up all sorts of systems. The kernel itself with the initramfs can boot everything, has all the filesystem access which is ever needed, there is no need for anything else on EFI machines. Even the craziest setups can boot directly out of the firmware that way. It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. And plain wrong is the sick game which is called grub2, not mounting the EFI partition at /boot. :) Forgive the noob question (as I have no EFI h/w to be bothered to learn this stuff!), but if What Andrey says is correct would this mean we cannot have two separate installs without sharing the same /boot? (or even a Windows install assuming it uses that space too?). Can you comment on those kind of set ups? Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/ ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 12:03 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit : On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Andrey Borzenkov arvidj...@gmail.com wrote: commit f4ce2b3e5ce93b83f14f8785e205ebb5a9b8c1df Author: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net Date: Mon Jan 21 01:02:53 2013 +0100 efi: add efi boot generator that automatically mounts the ESP to /boot Has something changed? ESP has always been mounted on /boot/efi, and mounting it on /boot is plain wrong; ESP is shared resource for all OS installed, not private space to place files of this specific installation. The Linux kernel acts as an EFI boot loader, if copied to the ESP it can be directly executed by the EFI firmware. The initramfs and the kernel live in a vendor sub-directory in the ESP and are read directly by EFI code, and there is no need for grub2, any other additional filesystem driver, raid, network setup, or whatever additional code people think they would need to bring up all sorts of systems. The kernel itself with the initramfs can boot everything, has all the filesystem access which is ever needed, there is no need for anything else on EFI machines. Even the craziest setups can boot directly out of the firmware that way. It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. But this setup is not shim loader/Secure Boot compatible. And it will force most (if not all) distributions to probably patch (or disable) this generator so it behave as it is expected by them (ie /boot/efi). -- Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com SUSE ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Colin Guthrie gm...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kay Sievers at 21/01/13 11:03 did gyre and gimble: On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Andrey Borzenkov arvidj...@gmail.com wrote: commit f4ce2b3e5ce93b83f14f8785e205ebb5a9b8c1df Author: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net Date: Mon Jan 21 01:02:53 2013 +0100 efi: add efi boot generator that automatically mounts the ESP to /boot Has something changed? ESP has always been mounted on /boot/efi, and mounting it on /boot is plain wrong; ESP is shared resource for all OS installed, not private space to place files of this specific installation. The Linux kernel acts as an EFI boot loader, if copied to the ESP it can be directly executed by the EFI firmware. The initramfs and the kernel live in a vendor sub-directory in the ESP and are read directly by EFI code, and there is no need for grub2, any other additional filesystem driver, raid, network setup, or whatever additional code people think they would need to bring up all sorts of systems. The kernel itself with the initramfs can boot everything, has all the filesystem access which is ever needed, there is no need for anything else on EFI machines. Even the craziest setups can boot directly out of the firmware that way. It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. And plain wrong is the sick game which is called grub2, not mounting the EFI partition at /boot. :) Forgive the noob question (as I have no EFI h/w to be bothered to learn this stuff!), but if What Andrey says is correct would this mean we cannot have two separate installs without sharing the same /boot? Sure, why not? You just have to make sure, that the files you copy to /boot are in properly named subdirectories. /boot is meant to be owned by the machine, not by the installed distribution, so the distribution has to behave in /boot and not do what they usually do with RPM today. The kernel+initramfs acts as the boot loader here, which can boot from everything and can read every hardware, every sotrage setup, that's all; nothing else is needed on /boot in a non-bullshit setup. Did I mention grub2 already? :) (or even a Windows install assuming it uses that space too?). Can you comment on those kind of set ups? Should all work fine. The EFI partition with the vendor sub-directories is by-design intended to be shared by multiple installations. Anyway, this is all just what we personally use, what we want to have supported by default. It will not get active for any other setup because of the conditions in the generator. It's not any distributions default, it's just the simplest and most efficient setup an EFI boot can have. ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 11:49 +, Colin Guthrie a écrit : 'Twas brillig, and Kay Sievers at 21/01/13 11:03 did gyre and gimble: On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 7:29 AM, Andrey Borzenkov arvidj...@gmail.com wrote: commit f4ce2b3e5ce93b83f14f8785e205ebb5a9b8c1df Author: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net Date: Mon Jan 21 01:02:53 2013 +0100 efi: add efi boot generator that automatically mounts the ESP to /boot Has something changed? ESP has always been mounted on /boot/efi, and mounting it on /boot is plain wrong; ESP is shared resource for all OS installed, not private space to place files of this specific installation. The Linux kernel acts as an EFI boot loader, if copied to the ESP it can be directly executed by the EFI firmware. The initramfs and the kernel live in a vendor sub-directory in the ESP and are read directly by EFI code, and there is no need for grub2, any other additional filesystem driver, raid, network setup, or whatever additional code people think they would need to bring up all sorts of systems. The kernel itself with the initramfs can boot everything, has all the filesystem access which is ever needed, there is no need for anything else on EFI machines. Even the craziest setups can boot directly out of the firmware that way. It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. And plain wrong is the sick game which is called grub2, not mounting the EFI partition at /boot. :) Forgive the noob question (as I have no EFI h/w to be bothered to learn this stuff!), but if What Andrey says is correct would this mean we cannot have two separate installs without sharing the same /boot? (or even a Windows install assuming it uses that space too?). Can you comment on those kind of set ups? You can have several kernel / boot managers on a UEFI partition, usually from different vendors, because each vendor must use a different prefix (/EFI/openSUSE vs /EFI/Fedora for instance), so it shouldn't conflict, unless you try to use different release of the same distributions. In that case, you'll probably need to edit the EFI Boot Manager entries (using efibootmgr) and hope each kernel / initrd are stored with a versioned name. -- Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com SUSE ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com wrote: Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 12:03 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit : It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. But this setup is not shim loader/Secure Boot compatible. Sure it is. Why not? It has nothing to do which filesystem /boot uses. And it will force most (if not all) distributions to probably patch (or disable) this generator so it behave as it is expected by them (ie /boot/efi). If you would have read the code or the commit or the wiki page, you would have noticed that the generator never gets active in any other setup. Kay ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 13:09 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit : On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com wrote: Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 12:03 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit : It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. But this setup is not shim loader/Secure Boot compatible. Sure it is. Why not? It has nothing to do which filesystem /boot uses. the generator isn't a problem, I was commenting on the simplest part. You still need a shim loader there, since an EFI-stubed kernel can't be signed by UEFI Signing Service (I'm not discussing signing a kernel yourself or injecting its key into EFI firmware). And it will force most (if not all) distributions to probably patch (or disable) this generator so it behave as it is expected by them (ie /boot/efi). If you would have read the code or the commit or the wiki page, you would have noticed that the generator never gets active in any other setup. I read the code before commenting, and I noticed it won't quick in as long as /boot is not empty nor mounted in fstab. But you are still deviating from the common practice among distributions and to be useful and work as expected on such distributions, this generator should use /boot/efi instead. Obviously, you already made you mind, so I guess it is useless to argue anymore but I doubt it will be of great usage on most distributions. -- Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com SUSE ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com wrote: Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 13:09 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit : On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Frederic Crozat fcro...@suse.com wrote: Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 12:03 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit : It's the simplest and most efficient setup a system can have. But this setup is not shim loader/Secure Boot compatible. Sure it is. Why not? It has nothing to do which filesystem /boot uses. the generator isn't a problem, I was commenting on the simplest part. You still need a shim loader there, since an EFI-stubed kernel can't be signed by UEFI Signing Service (I'm not discussing signing a kernel yourself or injecting its key into EFI firmware). It's just a matter of the features of the EFI loader you use, it still has absolutely nothing to do with how /boot looks like, or what its filesystem is. And it will force most (if not all) distributions to probably patch (or disable) this generator so it behave as it is expected by them (ie /boot/efi). If you would have read the code or the commit or the wiki page, you would have noticed that the generator never gets active in any other setup. I read the code before commenting, and I noticed it won't quick in as long as /boot is not empty nor mounted in fstab. But you are still deviating from the common practice among distributions and to be useful and work as expected on such distributions, this generator should use /boot/efi instead. Obviously, you already made you mind, so I guess it is useless to argue anymore but I doubt it will be of great usage on most distributions. Yes, we do not want to get into any grub2 business or any other bootloader configuration. This is just an option that will not be used by any current default setup. The whole point of this thing is to not need another OS like grub2 to read all sorts of storage setups and filesystems, just to load a kernel that does all the same stuff again, but properly, and for real. We can just skip that whole nonsense by making /boot the EFI system partition and store the kernel there. Distribution with their getting-more-fragile-and-insane-every-week boot setup can do their stuff and will not be affected in any way by this. Kay ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] [systemd-commits] 3 commits - .gitignore Makefile.am src/bootchart src/core src/efi-boot-generator src/shared
В Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:04:30 -0800 (PST) lenn...@kemper.freedesktop.org (Lennart Poettering) пишет: commit f4ce2b3e5ce93b83f14f8785e205ebb5a9b8c1df Author: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net Date: Mon Jan 21 01:02:53 2013 +0100 efi: add efi boot generator that automatically mounts the ESP to /boot Has something changed? ESP has always been mounted on /boot/efi, and mounting it on /boot is plain wrong; ESP is shared resource for all OS installed, not private space to place files of this specific installation. ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
