Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

I'm disabling mail delivery towards my email account from this list now. 
If you wanted anything just include me in the recipient list.


Have a nice day.


Alberto 


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Okay, thank you ;)


Alberto 


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Ryan Gonzalez]

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 3:34 PM Alberto Salvia Novella 
wrote:

> --- THE REAL QUESTIONS ---
>
> The questions here are:
>
> - Why is the graphical-session targets inactive by default on my system?
> - How should a unit part of the graphical session be started?
>
>
This was sort of explained previously, but to rephrase it a bit: it seems
that graphical-session.target is a sort of "proxy" for the main session,
primarily for window manager authors?


>
> --- TOO IMPLICIT ---
>
> You have to know that I'm helping someone else getting their daemon
> running on SystemD. As even when he
>  has long experience coding
> in Linux, he hasn't been able to figure it out himself.
>
>
*cough cough* systemd *cough cough* Also, that doesn't seem to be a case
where there was really any confusion?

That being said, what you're really looking for (using systemd user
services as a replacement for XDG autostart) is going to be coming soon:
https://blogs.gnome.org/laney/2018/06/26/starting-sessions-with-systemd/


> Take it as a warn that the SystemD operation, even when simple, isn't
> explicit enough.
>
> Also the units manual
>  is
> very descriptive, but not very practical. For example the "Section Options"
> is somehow confusing. It would be better typed in a more schematic way,
> rather than in a paragraph.
>
>
Why did you start with the man pages, though? 樂 They're intended to be
used as a reference manual, not an introduction. For that, you should see
the systemd for Administrators blog series:
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#thesystemdforadministratorsblogseries


> It should start with the simplest user cases, and compose on them. It
> should serve the goal, not the taxonomy.
>
>
> --- CONCLUSION ---
>
> I can talk with whoever is needed to have these things working smoothly,
> but I need to know what's the missing piece of the puzzle: why these
> targets are staying inactive. Because nobody except you seems to know.
>
> Otherwise we could only but assume that graphical-session targets are a
> joke, and start using the default target for graphical services.
>
>
> [image: Alberto] 
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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

--- THE REAL QUESTIONS ---

The questions here are:

- Why is the graphical-session targets inactive by default on my system?
- How should a unit part of the graphical session be started?


--- TOO IMPLICIT ---

You have to know that I'm helping someone else getting their daemon 
running on SystemD. As even when he 
 has long experience 
coding in Linux, he hasn't been able to figure it out himself.


Take it as a warn that the SystemD operation, even when simple, isn't 
explicit enough.


Also the units manual 
 is 
very descriptive, but not very practical. For example the "Section 
Options" is somehow confusing. It would be better typed in a more 
schematic way, rather than in a paragraph.


It should start with the simplest user cases, and compose on them. It 
should serve the goal, not the taxonomy.



--- CONCLUSION ---

I can talk with whoever is needed to have these things working smoothly, 
but I need to know what's the missing piece of the puzzle: why these 
targets are staying inactive. Because nobody except you seems to know.


Otherwise we could only but assume that graphical-session targets are a 
joke, and start using the default target for graphical services.



Alberto 


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Lets see if I have understood the process:

1. The display manager shall start the specific 
"[desktop]-session.target", by running "systemctl --user start 
[desktop]-session.target"
2. "[desktop]-session.target" shall start "graphical-session.target", by 
containing "BindsTo=graphical-session.target".
3. "graphical-session.target" shall start graphical session units, by 
those containing "PartOf=graphical-session.target".


Is this correct?


Alberto 


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Martin Pitt]

Hello Alberto,

Alberto Salvia Novella [2018-07-04  1:56 +0200]:
> Requested on:
> - gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gdm/issues/396
> - github.com/CanonicalLtd/lightdm/issues/29
> - github.com/sddm/sddm/issues/1044
> - bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107107

These are invalid, please see my previous reply on the list.
Also, please don't cut away the https:// from links, this makes it impossible
to click on them.

Martin
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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Requested on:
- gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gdm/issues/396
- github.com/CanonicalLtd/lightdm/issues/29
- github.com/sddm/sddm/issues/1044
- bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107107

You will want to subscribe to those, in case they needed your feedback.


Alberto 


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Martin Pitt]

Hello Alberto,

Alberto Salvia Novella [2018-06-28  6:33 +0200]:
> Currently many Linux Distributions don't activate graphical-session.target
> and graphical-session-pre.target during login.
> 
> I liked to know which software should ideally be in charge of that. So I can
> inform their developers about it, and have that behavior widely adopted.

These should never be enabled or started directly. It is merely an abstract
alias for any concrete X session such as {gnome,xfce,kde}-session.target.
Please see the following for more information:

  * man systemd.special
  * https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/c92fcc4f4375b0
  * My talk about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq18daxTkLA
  * Slides for the talk: 
https://people.debian.org/~mpitt/systemd.conf-2016-graphical-session.pdf

Martin


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

The graphical target not for the system, but for the user session:

systemctl --user status graphical-session.target
● graphical-session.target - Current graphical user session
   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/graphical-session.target; 
static; vendor preset: enabled)

   Active: inactive (dead)
 Docs: man:systemd.special(7)

cat /usr/lib/systemd/user/graphical-session.target
[Unit]
Description=Current graphical user session
Documentation=man:systemd.special(7)
Requires=basic.target
RefuseManualStart=yes
StopWhenUnneeded=yes


Alberto 


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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Mantas Mikulėnas]

The thread is about systemd --user.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 18:06 Reindl Harald  wrote:

> what problem needs to be solved?
>
> [root@srv-rhsoft:/usr/lib/systemd/system]$ ls | grep graphical
> drwxr-xr-x. 2 root root 4,0K 2018-05-04 12:46 graphical.target.wants
> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   16 2018-05-04 10:40 default.target ->
> graphical.target
> -rw-r--r--  1 root root  558 2018-02-21 12:29 graphical.target
> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   16 2018-05-04 10:40 runlevel5.target ->
> graphical.target
>
> [root@srv-rhsoft:/usr/lib/systemd/system]$ cat graphical.target
> #  This file is part of systemd.
> #
> #  systemd is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
> #  under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by
> #  the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, or
> #  (at your option) any later version.
>
> [Unit]
> Description=Graphical Interface
> Documentation=man:systemd.special(7)
> Requires=multi-user.target
> Wants=display-manager.service
> Conflicts=rescue.service rescue.target
> After=multi-user.target rescue.service rescue.target
> display-manager.service
> AllowIsolate=yes
> [root@srv-rhsoft
>
> Am 28.06.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Ryan Gonzalez:
> > I *think* it's the login manager?
> >
> > On June 27, 2018 11:41:22 PM Alberto Salvia Novella
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Currently many Linux Distributions don't activate
> >> graphical-session.target and graphical-session-pre.target during login.
> >>
> >> I liked to know which software should ideally be in charge of that. So
> >> I can inform their developers about it, and have that behavior widely
> >> adopted
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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Peter Hoeg]

Reindl,


what problem needs to be solved?
[root@srv-rhsoft:/usr/lib/systemd/system]$ ls | grep graphical


we are talking about the *user* targets that will be activated by login 
managers, not the *system* targets.

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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Reindl Harald]

what problem needs to be solved?

[root@srv-rhsoft:/usr/lib/systemd/system]$ ls | grep graphical
drwxr-xr-x. 2 root root 4,0K 2018-05-04 12:46 graphical.target.wants
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   16 2018-05-04 10:40 default.target ->
graphical.target
-rw-r--r--  1 root root  558 2018-02-21 12:29 graphical.target
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   16 2018-05-04 10:40 runlevel5.target ->
graphical.target

[root@srv-rhsoft:/usr/lib/systemd/system]$ cat graphical.target
#  This file is part of systemd.
#
#  systemd is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
#  under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by
#  the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, or
#  (at your option) any later version.

[Unit]
Description=Graphical Interface
Documentation=man:systemd.special(7)
Requires=multi-user.target
Wants=display-manager.service
Conflicts=rescue.service rescue.target
After=multi-user.target rescue.service rescue.target display-manager.service
AllowIsolate=yes
[root@srv-rhsoft

Am 28.06.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Ryan Gonzalez:
> I *think* it's the login manager?
> 
> On June 27, 2018 11:41:22 PM Alberto Salvia Novella
>  wrote:
> 
>> Currently many Linux Distributions don't activate
>> graphical-session.target and graphical-session-pre.target during login.
>>
>> I liked to know which software should ideally be in charge of that. So
>> I can inform their developers about it, and have that behavior widely
>> adopted
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Re: [systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Ryan Gonzalez]

I *think* it's the login manager?


On June 27, 2018 11:41:22 PM Alberto Salvia Novella  
wrote:



Currently many Linux Distributions don't activate
graphical-session.target and graphical-session-pre.target during login.

I liked to know which software should ideally be in charge of that. So I
can inform their developers about it, and have that behavior widely adopted.


Alberto 



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[systemd-devel] Graphical session targets as standard

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Currently many Linux Distributions don't activate 
graphical-session.target and graphical-session-pre.target during login.


I liked to know which software should ideally be in charge of that. So I 
can inform their developers about it, and have that behavior widely adopted.



Alberto 


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