Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
'Twas brillig, and Alec Leamas at 07/03/14 19:45 did gyre and gimble: Sorry for not being clear. The priob On 3/7/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. What do you mean by synchronize? Since the service needs to be part of the session, I presume that a /systemd/user service isn't really the way to go (?): This leaves me with the problem to start a service e. .g,, using a desktop file in the autostart dir. The service needs a socket created by a systemd service. You can simply order your system service before systemd-user-sessions.service. All user sessions are only started after that, hence ordering your service before that makes sure for users it is always accesssible. As of now, I simply poll for the socket creation in a shell script. It's just that my gut feeling is that this is not really the way to do this. Is there a better approach? Well, you can make it socket activated, but otherwise just order it like suggested above... Sorry for not being clear... I can't make it socket activated, nor can I order it. My user service is *not* a systemd service since it needs to be part of the session. As of now, it's started as a desktop service using a desktop file. So the question is: is there any good way for a non-systemd user service to to things that systemd services does, like waiting on a socket or somehow become part of the ordering scheme? So I guess one question is, do you have a systemd --user instance running? Typically this happens automatically via PAM with most reasonably recent systemds. So you *could* write a user systemd unit (or combo of units - socket+service) that would start your service. This might or might not really help tho' as whatever consumes your service would still need to block/wait I guess (even if it was socket activated in the user session I'm not sure you currently have any guarantees that non-systemd stuff is started after systemd stuff - would need a full conversion to systemd-based user sessions for that). You could use systemctl --user is-active foo.socket to do the polling which might or might not seem nicer to you. Another option which may work if you have a simple setup and control over the machine, is to write a *system* service but put User=+Group= directives in it to start as your user+group. You can order that before systemd-user-sessions.service and that will allow you to login confident that your service will already have started. This falls down quite royally when you have multiple users tho'! Hope that helps a bit. Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/ ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
On 3/10/14, Colin Guthrie gm...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Alec Leamas at 07/03/14 19:45 did gyre and gimble: Sorry for not being clear. The priob On 3/7/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. What do you mean by synchronize? Since the service needs to be part of the session, I presume that a /systemd/user service isn't really the way to go (?): This leaves me with the problem to start a service e. .g,, using a desktop file in the autostart dir. The service needs a socket created by a systemd service. [cut] I can't make it socket activated, nor can I order it. My user service is *not* a systemd service since it needs to be part of the session. As of now, it's started as a desktop service using a desktop file. So the question is: is there any good way for a non-systemd user service to to things that systemd services does, like waiting on a socket or somehow become part of the ordering scheme? So I guess one question is, do you have a systemd --user instance running? Typically this happens automatically via PAM with most reasonably recent systemds. So you *could* write a user systemd unit (or combo of units - socket+service) that would start your service. This might or might not really help tho' as whatever consumes your service would still need to block/wait I guess (even if it was socket activated in the user session I'm not sure you currently have any guarantees that non-systemd stuff is started after systemd stuff - would need a full conversion to systemd-based user sessions for that). You could use systemctl --user is-active foo.socket to do the polling which might or might not seem nicer to you. Another option which may work if you have a simple setup and control over the machine, is to write a *system* service but put User=+Group= directives in it to start as your user+group. You can order that before systemd-user-sessions.service and that will allow you to login confident that your service will already have started. This falls down quite royally when you have multiple users tho'! Hope that helps a bit. Col Thanks for taking time to reply. That said, it seems hard to get the message through on this list: systemd doesn't always fit the bill :). Again: My service is not a systemd service, neither system nor user. And it can't be, since it needs to be part of the session, accessing the display and similar stuff. As I understand it , systemd only runs processes outside the session, be it system or user ones(?) The obvious approach for such a service is then to start it using a desktop file in the .config/autostart directory (freedesktop specs). However, this service started outside of systemd still need a socket provided by a another systemd service. Actually, I have worked around my problem using socket activation which means that the socket is there. But I have a gut feeling that there will be more of these problems, synchronizing session services started by e. g., gnome and systemd services running outside the session. Perhaps I just got it all wrong, and systemd will (does?) also handle the session services running within the session? Or is there a reasonable robust way for a system user service started outside the session to join it? Or, my first thought, is there a way (API/tool) for non-systemd services to wait for a systemd service being started or so? confused --alec I ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote: […] Perhaps I just got it all wrong, and systemd will (does?) also handle the session services running within the session? Or is there a reasonable robust way for a system user service started outside the session to join it? Or, my first thought, is there a way (API/tool) for non-systemd services to wait for a systemd service being started or so? Currently, there is `systemctl --user import-environment` that the xprofile script can run, to make $DISPLAY and $XAUTHORITY accessible to `systemd --user` services. In the future, the entire session might be started through `systemd --user`. -- Mantas Mikulėnas graw...@gmail.com ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
On 3/10/14, Mantas Mikulėnas graw...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote: […] Perhaps I just got it all wrong, and systemd will (does?) also handle the session services running within the session? Or is there a reasonable robust way for a system user service started outside the session to join it? Or, my first thought, is there a way (API/tool) for non-systemd services to wait for a systemd service being started or so? Currently, there is `systemctl --user import-environment` that the xprofile script can run, to make $DISPLAY and $XAUTHORITY accessible to `systemd --user` services. In the future, the entire session might be started through `systemd --user`. Ah... that's it! Perhaps not the most elegant solution, being all-services-or-none. But absolutely a reasonable approach... will test. Thanks! --alec ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
'Twas brillig, and Alec Leamas at 10/03/14 15:46 did gyre and gimble: On 3/10/14, Colin Guthrie gm...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Alec Leamas at 07/03/14 19:45 did gyre and gimble: Sorry for not being clear. The priob On 3/7/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. What do you mean by synchronize? Since the service needs to be part of the session, I presume that a /systemd/user service isn't really the way to go (?): This leaves me with the problem to start a service e. .g,, using a desktop file in the autostart dir. The service needs a socket created by a systemd service. [cut] I can't make it socket activated, nor can I order it. My user service is *not* a systemd service since it needs to be part of the session. As of now, it's started as a desktop service using a desktop file. So the question is: is there any good way for a non-systemd user service to to things that systemd services does, like waiting on a socket or somehow become part of the ordering scheme? So I guess one question is, do you have a systemd --user instance running? Typically this happens automatically via PAM with most reasonably recent systemds. So you *could* write a user systemd unit (or combo of units - socket+service) that would start your service. This might or might not really help tho' as whatever consumes your service would still need to block/wait I guess (even if it was socket activated in the user session I'm not sure you currently have any guarantees that non-systemd stuff is started after systemd stuff - would need a full conversion to systemd-based user sessions for that). You could use systemctl --user is-active foo.socket to do the polling which might or might not seem nicer to you. Another option which may work if you have a simple setup and control over the machine, is to write a *system* service but put User=+Group= directives in it to start as your user+group. You can order that before systemd-user-sessions.service and that will allow you to login confident that your service will already have started. This falls down quite royally when you have multiple users tho'! Hope that helps a bit. Col Thanks for taking time to reply. That said, it seems hard to get the message through on this list: systemd doesn't always fit the bill :). Again: My service is not a systemd service, neither system nor user. Yes, it's not *currently* a systemd service. My first suggestion was to make it into one. FYI, when systemd in the user session is fully supported, it will likely enumerate the .desktop files (whether they are XDG autostart or just regular .desktop files) and they *will* be systemd (user) services. And it can't be, since it needs to be part of the session, accessing the display and similar stuff. Yeah, fair enough, this certainly rules out the second option I suggested (User=+Group=), but eventually this shouldn't be a problem overall when the whole session is also managed by systemd, so you're not too far away from making it all work as a systemd (user) service. As I understand it , systemd only runs processes outside the session, be it system or user ones(?) The obvious approach for such a service is then to start it using a desktop file in the .config/autostart directory (freedesktop specs). At present, I'd say yes, this is likely the case. However, this service started outside of systemd still need a socket provided by a another systemd service. Actually, I have worked around my problem using socket activation which means that the socket is there. But I have a gut feeling that there will be more of these problems, synchronizing session services started by e. g., gnome and systemd services running outside the session. During this early systemd in the user session stage, yes I agree, but longer term, these kind of things will be addressed by probably starting the whole session via systemd --user (and perhaps with systemctl --user import-environment too). Perhaps I just got it all wrong, and systemd will (does?) also handle the session services running within the session? Or is there a reasonable robust way for a system user service started outside the session to join it? Or, my first thought, is there a way (API/tool) for non-systemd services to wait for a systemd service being started or so? It will, but it's all still a little early but people are making good progress here (the whole concept of a session verses a user is a little blurry these days - many services are per-user already (as user activity is very much tied into device access etc.) rather than per-session - think audio access, disk mounting etc. and thus allowing multiple graphical sessions of the same user is likely something that
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
On Fri, 07.03.14 20:45, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Sorry for not being clear. The priob On 3/7/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. What do you mean by synchronize? Since the service needs to be part of the session, I presume that a /systemd/user service isn't really the way to go (?): This leaves me with the problem to start a service e. .g,, using a desktop file in the autostart dir. The service needs a socket created by a systemd service. You can simply order your system service before systemd-user-sessions.service. All user sessions are only started after that, hence ordering your service before that makes sure for users it is always accesssible. As of now, I simply poll for the socket creation in a shell script. It's just that my gut feeling is that this is not really the way to do this. Is there a better approach? Well, you can make it socket activated, but otherwise just order it like suggested above... Sorry for not being clear... I can't make it socket activated, nor can I order it. My user service is *not* a systemd service since it needs to be part of the session. As of now, it's started as a desktop service using a desktop file. So the question is: is there any good way for a non-systemd user service to to things that systemd services does, like waiting on a socket or somehow become part of the ordering scheme? I really don't grok this? Do you have a system systemd service and a non-systemd session service? Or do you have a user systemd service and a non-systemd session service? The former should a non-issue, as pointed above, as you can just order your system systemd service before systemd-user-session.service. Since user sessions are only started after that barrier you don't have to synchronize for anything else... The latter doesn't make much sense to me... Anyway, really not grokking what you are trying to do... Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Red Hat ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
On 3/10/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 20:45, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Sorry for not being clear. The priob On 3/7/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. [cut] So the question is: is there any good way for a non-systemd user service to to things that systemd services does, like waiting on a socket or somehow become part of the ordering scheme? I really don't grok this? Do you have a system systemd service and a non-systemd session service? Yup Or do you have a user systemd service and a non-systemd session service? No The former should a non-issue, as pointed above, as you can just order your system systemd service before systemd-user-session.service. Since user sessions are only started after that barrier you don't have to synchronize for anything else... Now, it was some time i really stumbled into this together with other lirc users.. But it really was (is?) the case that the session service was started ahead of the system, systemd service. Or to be more precise, before that service had created it's pipe. A shellscript polling for the pipe during startup solved it, but left a bad taste in the mouth. As I said, I have walked around the problem using socket activation. So this discussion is somewhat academic. But I''m still a little curious. And confused, although on a higher level. ;) --alec ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. What do you mean by synchronize? Since the service needs to be part of the session, I presume that a /systemd/user service isn't really the way to go (?): This leaves me with the problem to start a service e. .g,, using a desktop file in the autostart dir. The service needs a socket created by a systemd service. You can simply order your system service before systemd-user-sessions.service. All user sessions are only started after that, hence ordering your service before that makes sure for users it is always accesssible. As of now, I simply poll for the socket creation in a shell script. It's just that my gut feeling is that this is not really the way to do this. Is there a better approach? Well, you can make it socket activated, but otherwise just order it like suggested above... Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Red Hat ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
Re: [systemd-devel] synchronizing user service
Sorry for not being clear. The priob On 3/7/14, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net wrote: On Fri, 07.03.14 19:58, Alec Leamas (leamas.a...@gmail.com) wrote: Dear list, Being a systemd dummie, I have a problem. It's a about running a service as a user, which needs to synchronize with a systemd service. What do you mean by synchronize? Since the service needs to be part of the session, I presume that a /systemd/user service isn't really the way to go (?): This leaves me with the problem to start a service e. .g,, using a desktop file in the autostart dir. The service needs a socket created by a systemd service. You can simply order your system service before systemd-user-sessions.service. All user sessions are only started after that, hence ordering your service before that makes sure for users it is always accesssible. As of now, I simply poll for the socket creation in a shell script. It's just that my gut feeling is that this is not really the way to do this. Is there a better approach? Well, you can make it socket activated, but otherwise just order it like suggested above... Sorry for not being clear... I can't make it socket activated, nor can I order it. My user service is *not* a systemd service since it needs to be part of the session. As of now, it's started as a desktop service using a desktop file. So the question is: is there any good way for a non-systemd user service to to things that systemd services does, like waiting on a socket or somehow become part of the ordering scheme? --alec ___ systemd-devel mailing list systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
