Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
2012/7/31 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Johan Jönsson joha...@goteborg.cc wrote: There are several ways to tag landcover with existing tags but if we where to define a new tag for grass along the lines of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landcover Why ? We have 1.066.000 landuse=grass and 756 landcover=grass. No vote required (that's perhaps why the proposed feature never tried one). landuse=grass is not the same as landcover=grass, in fact, grass isn't a landuse at all. If you tag landuse=grass you actually loose the ability to tag a real landuse. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
Hi, On 08/13/12 11:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: landuse=grass is not the same as landcover=grass, in fact, grass isn't a landuse at all. If you tag landuse=grass you actually loose the ability to tag a real landuse. I think the opposite is true. If people know what the landuse is then they will tag that; if not and there's grass on the ground then they'll fall back to landuse=grass. For example, if there's a military area with grass, people will use landuse=military and the fact that there's grass will not be recorded (or maybe landuse=military surface=grass?). I.e. if you use the landuse tag to record the presence of grass then you lose the ability to record the presence of grass in areas subject to land use. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
2012/8/3 Johan Jönsson joha...@goteborg.cc: There are of course several ways to construct hierarchy, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) uses one such approach and when they come sufficently deep they switch to a more complicated system with tailored classifiers and attributes to go further. +1, the FAO system seems quite elaborated (might be too detailed/complicated/long for OSM, not sure, but personally I'd like to have it adopted). It could be translated to OSM by using several tags i.e. you would describe the area with several tags by telling if there is vegetation or not, if the vegetation is dense or sparse, how humid the soil is, so instead of having a detailed value for every exact vegetation/coverage type you'd describe the single characteristics. This also allows for global statistics and comparison between areas that are similar in some attributes, but not all (e.g. the kind of vegetation also depends heavily on temperature and the natural environment). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
2012/8/13 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: On 08/13/12 11:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: landuse=grass is not the same as landcover=grass, in fact, grass isn't a landuse at all. If you tag landuse=grass you actually loose the ability to tag a real landuse. I think the opposite is true. If people know what the landuse is then they will tag that; if not and there's grass on the ground then they'll fall back to landuse=grass. For example, if there's a military area with grass, people will use landuse=military and the fact that there's grass will not be recorded (or maybe landuse=military surface=grass?). I.e. if you use the landuse tag to record the presence of grass then you lose the ability to record the presence of grass in areas subject to land use. You have a strange idea about the opposite ;-), I'm fine with what you wrote as well. The thing is, that landuse=grass should be used, according to the wiki, for smaller areas of mown and managed grass for example in the middle of a roundabout, verges beside a road or in the middle of a dual-carriageway. Should not be used where a more specific tag is available. So this isn't actually a tag for every spot where you can find grass, but it is a tag for auxiliary areas dedicated to traffic. Interpretating the definition strictly, it also appears as if we would be missing a tag for the bigger areas ;-) IMHO it would be less misleading to call that tag landuse=de:Verkehrsnebenflächen (sorry, don't know a precise English term, direct translation is s.th. like auxiliary_traffic_area) and specify the actual cover in a second tag (if you like). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
On 08/13/12 11:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: +1, the FAO system seems quite elaborated (might be too detailed/complicated/long for OSM, not sure, Anything used for OSM must enable someone who knows shit about biology and geology to make a meaningful contribution (that does not make him feel like he's completely useless because he could only fill in 2% of the blanks). Too often, tagging discussion is driven by the wet dreams of specialists in one field or the other (wouldn't it be great it volunteers the world over would record the soil acidity? imagine what we could do with that data!). Remember that it has so far been impossible to educate people to even differentiate between landuse=forest and natural=wood. Anything that contains the word herbaceous is, however attractive to someone working in the field, is very likely not suitable for OSM. Of course enthusiasts can use specialist tags to record esoteric stuff, but I fear that many people believe that such tags, if adopted, would automatically enter the mainstream and their filling out be requested from everyone who adds data, when indeed our presets are often too crowded already. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Advice clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.
2012/8/11 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com: I've added track_detail=yes in places where there are tracks1 tags but the lines are separately drawn. I've included some that have been there for a while. I've contacted the only people who I'm aware that use the tracks data (itoworld) to see if deleting the tracks tags (or setting them all to tracks=1) causes them any stress, and whether they prefer it one way or the other. Deleting a lot of tracks tags (or setting them all to 1) involves removing data that some people may be using, so I'm not proposing to do that yet. I'd propose to set tracks to 1 in cases where a osm way represents a single track, and to the number of tracks in the other cases. Adding an additional track_detail=yes without modifying the tracks value doesn't sound like a good idea. How could this be evaluated to see the actual number of tracks (you won't be able to see which tracks belong together e.g. in situations where several routes share the same place for a short time)? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
according to the wiki, for smaller areas of mown and managed grass for example in the middle of a roundabout, verges beside a road or in So this isn't actually a tag for every spot where you can find grass, but it is a tag for auxiliary areas dedicated to traffic. It reads for example above. My point in this message: Not all of them are auxiliary areas of highways. I've always taken landuse=grass to mean any area, that grows grass, but where said area is not used for anything else, except for growing that grass, and which gets mowed at least sometimes, to keep it from naturally becoming something else. If it would be left unmaintained, it would turn into scrub, mud, or meadow, or similar. In a few years anyway. If it would be used for leisure, it'd be (a part of a) leisure=park. If it would be used for sport, it'd probably be leisure=pitch. -- Alv ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
2012/8/13 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi: according to the wiki, for smaller areas of mown and managed grass for example in the middle of a roundabout, verges beside a road or in So this isn't actually a tag for every spot where you can find grass, but it is a tag for auxiliary areas dedicated to traffic. It reads for example above. My point in this message: Not all of them are auxiliary areas of highways. +1, but this doesn't change anything, you simply tag the landuse of other areas where grass grows according to what it is. Still grass doesn't become a landuse. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/8/13 Kytömaa Lauri lauri.kyto...@aalto.fi: according to the wiki, for smaller areas of mown and managed grass for example in the middle of a roundabout, verges beside a road or in So this isn't actually a tag for every spot where you can find grass, but it is a tag for auxiliary areas dedicated to traffic. It reads for example above. My point in this message: Not all of them are auxiliary areas of highways. +1, but this doesn't change anything, you simply tag the landuse of other areas where grass grows according to what it is. Still grass doesn't become a landuse. cheers, Martin The only situations, in my opinion, where the landuse=grass tag would be appropriate would be for a hay field and for a sod farm (where grass is being grown for future transplanting). In both cases, grass is being grown as a crop. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
Still grass doesn't become a landuse. I woul dnot agree with this statement. In many areas of the world, grass is grown and harvested as (winter) fodder for animals. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landuse this is tagged as landuse=grass If the grass is used for grazing, the wiki suggests landuse=meadow For the the mapper who is not a farming expert, it's often difficult to distinguish between the two uses. In addition in many cases both uses apply to the same piece of land at different seasons. Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
2012/8/13 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: I woul dnot agree with this statement. In many areas of the world, grass is grown and harvested as (winter) fodder for animals. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landuse this is tagged as landuse=grass IMHO the general landuse=farmland would make more sense, if you want to tag that grass is grown you could use a subtag. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Still grass doesn't become a landuse. I woul dnot agree with this statement. In many areas of the world, grass is grown and harvested as (winter) fodder for animals. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Landuse this is tagged as landuse=grass If the grass is used for grazing, the wiki suggests landuse=meadow For the the mapper who is not a farming expert, it's often difficult to distinguish between the two uses. In addition in many cases both uses apply to the same piece of land at different seasons. Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Yes, if animals are intended to graze on the grass, if the grass will be harvested for use as fodder (what my earlier message termed a hay field), or if sod will subsequently be transplanted elsewhere (a sod farm), then the grass is being grown as a crop, and landuse=grass is appropriate. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover
2012/8/13 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com: Yes, if animals are intended to graze on the grass, if the grass will be harvested for use as fodder (what my earlier message termed a hay field), or if sod will subsequently be transplanted elsewhere (a sod farm), then the grass is being grown as a crop, and landuse=grass is appropriate. I think that it is not a good idea to tag grass grown for agricultural use as a crop the same as green areas besides or between streets. Physically they might be the same, but there is a big difference. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Advice clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.
On 10/08/2012 23:30, Richard Mann wrote: I've added track_detail=yes in places where there are tracks1 tags but the lines are separately drawn. I've included some that have been there for a while. I've contacted the only people who I'm aware that use the tracks data (itoworld) to see if deleting the tracks tags (or setting them all to tracks=1) causes them any stress, and whether they prefer it one way or the other. Deleting a lot of tracks tags (or setting them all to 1) involves removing data that some people may be using, so I'm not proposing to do that yet. There is no benefit in adding yet another tag to cover up other inaccurate tags. Just revert your detrimental edits. I fail to see the point in asking ITO as the tag usage is clearly laid out in the wiki. Please rescind your edits. They add errors into the OSM database. Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
