Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>> Am 03.03.2016 um 14:41 schrieb Marc Gemis :
>>
>> I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
>> there is no need for sales=no.
>> Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes 
>> sense.
>
>
> I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that 
> facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do 
> this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they 
> don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.

While I don't want to defend the scheme of the preset (you should
contact the author of the preset on why he/she choose that scheme),
there are some benefits with that schema.
With this schema I only need 1 query shop=motorcycle + rental=yes (or
whatever is in the preset) to find all places where you can rent
motorcycles.

With the duck tagging, you need the union of 3 "queries"

- one for pure rental places
- one for shop + rental
- one for repair + rental.

Otherwise you might miss places where you can rent a motorcycle. So
the distinction at the top is not useful for this search. The same is
true in case you look for a repair shop, as shops selling motorcycles
usually offer service as well. Hence, the distinction is not always
right imho.

My original comment was just triggered by Martin stating that
sale/sales does not makes sense. It does makes sense in case you merge
all three, But shop=motorcycle is a bad choice in that case. For some
queries it would be nice to have all motorcycle related commercial
activities under 1 tag.
This does not mean that I ask to change the current preferred way of 3
top level tags. I just want to point out that there is a downside on
the current schema (with 3 toplevel tags) as well.

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that
> facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do
> this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they
> don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.
>
> Also from a linguistic point of view, "sales" is not chosen
> extraordinarily well, it sounds like "bargain sale"/"clearance sale" or am
> I over interpreting this?
>

+1

I agree. Top level tags for the main functions of motorcycle rentals, parts
and repairs make sense and are less confusing. In the case of a shop that
primarily sells motorcycles, adding extra tags when it also sells clothing,
parts, service, and inspections is fine as well. However, one could make
the argument that a top level tag of shop=motorcycle with subtags to
determine what particular type of shop it is also makes sense and I think
that's what the writers of this preset are trying to achieve.

As for the sale tag, I think removing it or ignoring it altogether is the
best approach.


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.03.2016 um 14:41 schrieb Marc Gemis :
> 
> I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
> there is no need for sales=no.
> Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes 
> sense.


I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that 
facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do 
this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they 
don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.

Also from a linguistic point of view, "sales" is not chosen extraordinarily 
well, it sounds like "bargain sale"/"clearance sale" or am I over interpreting 
this?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2016-03-03 13:21 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :
>>
>> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
>> sense, not ?
>
>
>
>
> if it is a service station, I'd map it like this, or shop=motorcycle_repair
> in analogy to the very established shop=car_repair
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=car_repair
> There is some usage (more than all sale=no together):
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=motorcycle_repair
>
> There are also some amenity=motorcycle_rental (even combinable with shops),
> similar to the much more used car rentals:
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=motorcycle_rental
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=car_rental and some very few
> vehicle_rental: http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=vehicle_rental
>

I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
there is no need for sales=no.
Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes sense.


m

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Colin Smale]

Is there nothing for motorcycle clothing? Leathers, boots, gloves,
helmets... That doesn't immediately appear to fall under m_parts,
m_rental or m_repair. 

--colin 

On 2016-03-03 14:25, Dave Swarthout wrote:

>> Rather than introducing new tags via editor presets people should "discuss" 
>> new tags (e.g. by dropping a note on the tagging ML), 
> 
> +1 I agree totally. But the sale tag is there in the Preset already - how did 
> that happen? The Wiki page tells us that sale refers to the fact that "whole" 
> motorcycles are being sold, either new or used or by "brand". I have never 
> seen the term used that way. But now that it's there, what can be done about 
> it? It's too much work to go through JOSM channels to change it -- I have 
> other more important things to attend to so I'm inclined to simply ignore it. 
> 
> @Marc - there are tags in use for shop=motorcyle_parts (57), 
> shop=motorcycle_rental (1) and shop=motorcycle_repair (272). This preset is 
> an attempt to bring them all together under one roof, so to speak. 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>  wrote:
>>> How many motorcycle shops do not sell something?
>> 
>> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
>> sense, not ? In case the shop=motorcycle has to be used for places
>> where you can only rent or have your motorcycle repaired. We do have a
>> car_repair and car_rental (sp?), but do we have something like that
>> for motorcycles ?
>> 
>> m
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> 
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

>Rather than introducing new tags via editor presets people should
"discuss" new tags (e.g. by dropping a note on the tagging ML),

+1 I agree totally. But the sale tag is there in the Preset already - how
did that happen? The Wiki page tells us that sale refers to the fact that
"whole" motorcycles are being sold, either new or used or by "brand". I
have never seen the term used that way. But now that it's there, what can
be done about it? It's too much work to go through JOSM channels to change
it — I have other more important things to attend to so I'm inclined to
simply ignore it.

@Marc - there are tags in use for shop=motorcyle_parts (57),
shop=motorcycle_rental (1) and shop=motorcycle_repair (272). This preset is
an attempt to bring them all together under one roof, so to speak.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
> > How many motorcycle shops do not sell something?
>
> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
> sense, not ? In case the shop=motorcycle has to be used for places
> where you can only rent or have your motorcycle repaired. We do have a
> car_repair and car_rental (sp?), but do we have something like that
> for motorcycles ?
>
> m
>
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>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-03 13:21 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
> sense, not ?
>



if it is a service station, I'd map it like this, or shop=motorcycle_repair
in analogy to the very established shop=car_repair
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=car_repair
There is some usage (more than all sale=no together):
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=motorcycle_repair

There are also some amenity=motorcycle_rental (even combinable with shops),
similar to the much more used car rentals:
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=motorcycle_rental
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=car_rental and some very few
vehicle_rental: http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=vehicle_rental

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] sloped_curb, kerb and god knows what left in limbo ......

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-03 12:24 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> My question was solely if there is some consensus that the kerb proposal
> is actually how it should be tagged now or if it is truly defunct and the
> original tagging scheme should continued to be used (as iD does).



I'm in favour of the kerb=* scheme and propose to add "sloped" as a
suggested value.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> How many motorcycle shops do not sell something?

In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
sense, not ? In case the shop=motorcycle has to be used for places
where you can only rent or have your motorcycle repaired. We do have a
car_repair and car_rental (sp?), but do we have something like that
for motorcycles ?

m

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Re: [Tagging] sloped_curb, kerb and god knows what left in limbo ......

[Simon Poole]

As pointed in my first mail out the issue is deprecating an existing
scheme in the wiki without replacing it with something else that is
either recognized as "how we do it now" or "approved" (the issue is not
that there is yet another scheme bit rotting in proposal state).

My question was solely if there is some consensus that the kerb proposal
is actually how it should be tagged now or if it is truly defunct and
the original tagging scheme should continued to be used (as iD does).

Simon

Am 03.03.2016 um 11:58 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2016-03-03 11:43 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole  >:
>
> The problem is "we" didn't. As already pointed out, there is only
> a proposal that has been bit-rotting for multiple years (it
> probably, when used on a crossing node, should have kerb:right and
> kerb:left variants for the asymmetric cases, but that is the only
> thing I see that might be improved). There's not even a JOSM
> preset for it. 
>
>
>
>
> What is wrong with the proposal ("bitrotting")? The tag it documents
> are used 24.000+ times. I agree with the addition of direction
> dependent tags for asymetric situations, you should put this on the
> discussion page, maybe in this paragraph:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/kerb#Kerb_direction
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] sloped_curb, kerb and god knows what left in limbo ......

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-03 11:43 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> The problem is "we" didn't. As already pointed out, there is only a
> proposal that has been bit-rotting for multiple years (it probably, when
> used on a crossing node, should have kerb:right and kerb:left variants for
> the asymmetric cases, but that is the only thing I see that might be
> improved). There's not even a JOSM preset for it.




What is wrong with the proposal ("bitrotting")? The tag it documents are
used 24.000+ times. I agree with the addition of direction dependent tags
for asymetric situations, you should put this on the discussion page, maybe
in this paragraph:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/kerb#Kerb_direction

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] sloped_curb, kerb and god knows what left in limbo ......

[Simon Poole]

Am 03.03.2016 um 11:23 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2016-03-02 17:42 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole  >:
>
> While the abandoned proposal seems to be more complete and I can't say
> anything about the other variant because of the lacking
> documentation, I
> don't really care either way, it would simply make easier if we could
> come to some consensus on what the actual current state is and
> what the
> preferred tagging is.
>
>
>
> I do care: prefer "kerb" for consistency, as this is Imperial style.
> We already had changed the "curb" to "kerb" many years ago, and IMHO
> there's no gain in re-introducing the yankee curb.

The problem is "we" didn't. As already pointed out, there is only a
proposal that has been bit-rotting for multiple years (it probably, when
used on a crossing node, should have kerb:right and kerb:left variants
for the asymmetric cases, but that is the only thing I see that might be
improved). There's not even a JOSM preset for it.

Simon



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Re: [Tagging] sloped_curb, kerb and god knows what left in limbo ......

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-02 17:42 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> While the abandoned proposal seems to be more complete and I can't say
> anything about the other variant because of the lacking documentation, I
> don't really care either way, it would simply make easier if we could
> come to some consensus on what the actual current state is and what the
> preferred tagging is.
>


I do care: prefer "kerb" for consistency, as this is Imperial style.
We already had changed the "curb" to "kerb" many years ago, and IMHO
there's no gain in re-introducing the yankee curb.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-03 8:35 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout :

> For example, I agree "sells" would be a better tag than "sale" but sale is
> already present in the JOSM preset.




Well, then remove it and change it to "sells:" ;-)
Have a look at the current usage of "sale":
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/sale#values
while at first this looks like an almost established tag (900+ uses),
you'll soon see that it doesn't allow to be interpreted and by what you
state it isn't even documented.
72% of values are "yes" 17% are "no" (so what is "sale=yes" supposed to
mean, that the shop is for sale? That it does sell something? How many
motorcycle shops do not sell something? IMHO these 17% sale=no are ill
tagged and should rather not get a shop=motorcycle at all), some few are
"used" and "used_only" (there is already a different more established tag
for these: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/second_hand#values ), I can't even
guess what sale=brand, sale=retail, sale=architecture, sale=Razzo,
sale=brands, sale=off or sale=now-on or sale=Bing mean. My suggestion is to
mark the tag as not suggested for application.

Rather than introducing new tags via editor presets people should "discuss"
new tags (e.g. by dropping a note on the tagging ML), because this way they
can be pointed to other tags that are already in use for the same thing or
to problems that arise from the proposed way of tagging. After/during this
discussion, the intended meaning of a tag should be documented in the wiki
to avoid people believing the same tags to mean different things.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal about suffixed tags has been approved

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 03/03/2016, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> Am 03.03.2016 um 03:57 schrieb moltonel 3x Combo :
>>
>> The fact that we don't know wether the extra name is an old_name or a
>> loc_name or something else is independant of how the extra name was
>> taged. The information is equally lacking from name_1, name=x;y, and
>> alt_name. Do not shoot the name_1 messenger when it is just telling
>> you that the mapper didn't have nuanced information about which
>> context the extra name fits best in.
>
> didn't you say before, name_n was for equally valid names?

Yes. That's what I said here as well. Same is true for alt_name and name=x;y.

> How do you
> distinguish names that are confirmed to be equally valid and bearing the
> same semantics from names where they are possibly not but the mapper didn't
> know?

You can't just by looking at the osm data, you'd need to
survey/research the question. It's possible that further research
might show that the extra name should go in (for example) old_name,
but that's not a garantee.

I think that Hakuch was refering to some TIGER imports which used
name_1 too lightly (I even believe that sometimes the difference
between name variants is just that one is abbreviated and the other
isn't). Most people agree that this was a bad import.

But Hackuch is (correct me if I'm wrong) using this bad import as an
example to say that semicolons should be used instead of suffixes.
That's reasoning is flawed, because if the import had used semicolons
instead of suffixes, it'd have the exact same problem (plus the
previously mentioned problems of using semicolons for names).

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.03.2016 um 02:23 schrieb Dave Swarthout :
> 
> the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag means the shop sells "whole 
> motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of motorcycles) of a certain brand. Fine, 
> but the brand tag in the main section of the preset already specifies that, 
> doesn't it? Is it logical to expect a shop selling new Hondas to also sell 
> pieces of Yamaha motorcycles? 


I'm occasionally using the prefix "sells:" to say what is sold, particularly in 
cases that are not inferrable. In your case, these could be 
sells:motorcycles=yes/no/used...
sells:motorcycle_parts=yes/no/etc

cheers,
Martin 
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