Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:47 PM Jarek Piórkowski 
wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 20:26, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> >> > I'm not arguing in favor of a change in language for key name.  But
> the local broadly accepted classification terminology (preferably in
> English for consistency sake) for the value.
> >>
> >> Why in English? Bundesstraße is a broadly accepted classification
> >> terminology, so is autostrada. If you want to do things for
> >> consistency sake, there are the accepted OSM-British-English names.
> >
> >
> > What I'm saying is highway=bundesstraße could be acceptable, but
> straße=bundestraße wouldn't be.  Mostly so way type objects with highway=*
> are still potentially routable.
>
> How do you propose these "potential routable" fallback routers to
> handle highway=Bürgersteig (a sidewalk) vs highway=Fahrradstraße (a
> local street where bicycles have priority)?


Same way I already consider highway=motorway:  Tag for access.  Assumptions
are OKish, but at least in north america, motorway and trunk (aka freeways
and expressways) are ambiguous for non-motorized modes.  Most states allow
nonmotorized modes on motorways, but 15 don't, and about 30 allow it when
not otherwise posted, so foot=no, bicycle=no is *NOT* a safe assumption for
freeways.  Especailly the farther west you go; for example, in British
Columbia, Washington and Oregon (where I grew up), a motorway is probably
safer for cyclists than your average city street with bicycle lanes (no
oncoming traffic, parking on the pavement is not permitted at all, roughly
4.5m wide hard shoulders, 80-110km/h speed limits but that's 3m from
anybody walking or cycling, versus no sidewalks, 1.5-2m wide bicycle lanes
and 60-90 km/h surface street speed limits, with both the speed limits and
bicycle lanes being next to never respected in the northwest).


> How will a router know
> which highways can be used by trucks, buses, pedestrians, other than
> with a giant lookup table?


highway=* is a good start, which is why I'm in favor of "lower is better"
with the exiting system.


> And if you do have a giant lookup table,
> wouldn't be easier to have it in editors rather than in every single
> data consumer?
>

Not really.  UK concepts are entirely foreign to all but roadgeeks in North
America, and, judging by AARoads and NE2's history, not even then.
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Tod Fitch

> On Dec 20, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> 
> What I'm saying is highway=bundesstraße could be acceptable, but 
> straße=bundestraße wouldn't be.  Mostly so way type objects with highway=*  
> are still potentially routable.

I sure wouldn’t want to be the person in charge of maintaining either the style 
definition or the SQL select function that had to decide which of many possible 
highway tag values I was going to render as a freeway, major road, minor road, 
etc. when creating a map that covers the whole world or even just a significant 
part of it.

Cheers!
Tod




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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 20:26, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>> > I'm not arguing in favor of a change in language for key name.  But the 
>> > local broadly accepted classification terminology (preferably in English 
>> > for consistency sake) for the value.
>>
>> Why in English? Bundesstraße is a broadly accepted classification
>> terminology, so is autostrada. If you want to do things for
>> consistency sake, there are the accepted OSM-British-English names.
>
>
> What I'm saying is highway=bundesstraße could be acceptable, but 
> straße=bundestraße wouldn't be.  Mostly so way type objects with highway=*  
> are still potentially routable.

How do you propose these "potential routable" fallback routers to
handle highway=Bürgersteig (a sidewalk) vs highway=Fahrradstraße (a
local street where bicycles have priority)? How will a router know
which highways can be used by trucks, buses, pedestrians, other than
with a giant lookup table? And if you do have a giant lookup table,
wouldn't be easier to have it in editors rather than in every single
data consumer?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:22 PM Jarek Piórkowski 
wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 20:16, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 6:57 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Being able to speak each country's highway lingua franca would make
> it a lot easier for OSM to become the Rosetta Stone of maps simply from
> ease of classification.
> >>
> >> That would mean using "jalan=provinsi" instead of "highway=primary" in
> >> Indonesia, so any global map service (like opencyclemap.org) would
> >> need to interpret all these tags from different languages. If you
> >> limit this to just official languages there would be several hundred
> >> to translate, but there are over 1500 languages with a written
> >> language currently: I don't see why we would limit things to just
> >> official languages.
> >
> >
> > I'm not arguing in favor of a change in language for key name.  But the
> local broadly accepted classification terminology (preferably in English
> for consistency sake) for the value.
>
> Why in English? Bundesstraße is a broadly accepted classification
> terminology, so is autostrada. If you want to do things for
> consistency sake, there are the accepted OSM-British-English names.
>

What I'm saying is highway=bundesstraße could be acceptable, but
straße=bundestraße wouldn't be.  Mostly so way type objects with highway=*
are still potentially routable.
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 20:16, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 6:57 PM Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
>> > Being able to speak each country's highway lingua franca would make it a 
>> > lot easier for OSM to become the Rosetta Stone of maps simply from ease of 
>> > classification.
>>
>> That would mean using "jalan=provinsi" instead of "highway=primary" in
>> Indonesia, so any global map service (like opencyclemap.org) would
>> need to interpret all these tags from different languages. If you
>> limit this to just official languages there would be several hundred
>> to translate, but there are over 1500 languages with a written
>> language currently: I don't see why we would limit things to just
>> official languages.
>
>
> I'm not arguing in favor of a change in language for key name.  But the local 
> broadly accepted classification terminology (preferably in English for 
> consistency sake) for the value.

Why in English? Bundesstraße is a broadly accepted classification
terminology, so is autostrada. If you want to do things for
consistency sake, there are the accepted OSM-British-English names.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 6:57 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> > Being able to speak each country's highway lingua franca would make it a
> lot easier for OSM to become the Rosetta Stone of maps simply from ease of
> classification.
>
> That would mean using "jalan=provinsi" instead of "highway=primary" in
> Indonesia, so any global map service (like opencyclemap.org) would
> need to interpret all these tags from different languages. If you
> limit this to just official languages there would be several hundred
> to translate, but there are over 1500 languages with a written
> language currently: I don't see why we would limit things to just
> official languages.
>

I'm not arguing in favor of a change in language for key name.  But the
local broadly accepted classification terminology (preferably in English
for consistency sake) for the value.
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:22 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> While =primary refers to "A major highway linking large towns, in
> developed countries normally with 2 lanes. In areas with worse
> infrastructure road quality may be far worse"
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dprimary
>

Well, that more or less does it, doesn't it?  Homer, Alaska is almost
exactly a statistically average American city in terms of size, anything
larger than that would be a moderately large city with Juneau, Fairbanks
qualifying as moderately major and Anchorage as quite large.  Keep in mind,
the average US city is only about 5000 people.


> If the only way of getting from A to B is along a particular road, it's
>> very important.
>>
>
> In some of the cases that I'm thinking of, these are the only roads, so
> yes, very important.
>

In which case secondary is going to show up adequately while not
overstating its stature as an even more major road than it is.


> Do we need to broaden our classes of construction/legality somewhat to
>> encompass
>> standards in countries outside the UK?  Probably.  Are the values for the
>> highway key
>> UK-centric and somewhat misleading?  Sure.
>>
>
> Thank you!
>
>
>> Should we map dirt tracks between Hell's Bumhole and Arse-end Of Nowhere
>> as motorways because they're the only
>> way of getting from one place to the other?  No, no, a thousand times no.
>>
>
> & yes, yes, a thousand times yes, :-) I agree that they shouldn't be
> =motorways, BUT, they should be either =trunk or =primary, because, in this
> area, they are the main road, & so are of vital importance
>

But, it's largely been established in the US that highway=trunk is a
special case to mean limited access expressway or controlled access single
carriageway, and primary being either an extremely major locally
significant road or a longer road of national importance.  AK2 might fit
primary for most of its length, and definitely fits trunk for it's
Fairbanks dual-carriageway segment, but I think a stronger case is made
with trunk for the Fairbanks dual carriageway and secondary for the rest.
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
>> This info is probably worth recording,
>> but legal status should go into a separate tag.
>>
> Legal status of roads in the US isn't quite as clearcut as it is in the UK,
> where the highway=* tag is literally equal to that country's legal
> classification, plus private roads with significant public passage and/or
> reach.
> ...
> At an absolute minimum, we really need to establish values lower than
> tertiary yet above unclassified, and we definitely do need to make the
> freeway/expressway distinction.

I agree that adding expressway=yes tags to more roads is a good idea.
It might be useful for rendering and routing in some situations.

If we allow highway=trunk to be used for all major highways (not only
those that have certain physical charateristics) this give us an
additional level to work with: in the UK and Spain, highway=primary
links smaller towns and villages since all the major highways are
highway=trunk, which leaves highway=secondary for pretty minor roads
("B Class" in the UK) linking villages and hamlets, while
highway=tertiary is for quite minor roads to hamlets or small
neighborhoods, and "highway=unclassified" is usually for tiny public
roads connecting farms or individual, isolated houses out in the
countryside

In the USA, most US highways can be highway=trunk or highway=primary,
most State highways are highway=primary or =secondary, and country or
local roads are highway=secondary or highway=tertiary if they are
significant. I use highway=unclassified for very small roads.

I don't know Alaska well, but I suspect that the one-lane, gravel
borough roads should not be highway=unclassified: they would usually
be highway=secondary or highway=tertiary, like most county roads in
the western USA. If they are the main route to the largest small town
within 100 miles, they might be highway=primary.

Here in eastern Indonesia, most of my highway=primary roads have large
sections of gravel, and most highway=secondary are narrow gravel or
dirt roads (though in Java and Bali they will usually be paved).

- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
> Being able to speak each country's highway lingua franca would make it a lot 
> easier for OSM to become the Rosetta Stone of maps simply from ease of 
> classification.

That would mean using "jalan=provinsi" instead of "highway=primary" in
Indonesia, so any global map service (like opencyclemap.org) would
need to interpret all these tags from different languages. If you
limit this to just official languages there would be several hundred
to translate, but there are over 1500 languages with a written
language currently: I don't see why we would limit things to just
official languages.

The main feature tags are in British English and they should be
translated to the appropriate local context by local mappers in each
area, rather than creating new feature tags for every country and
language, so that global maps and routing applications can continue to
work.

It's also helpful that mappers in Germany and Japan can help map my
area here in Indonesia, adding rivers, lakes and roads based on aerial
imagery. They would have trouble if they needed to learn the hundreds
of local languages in each part of Indonesia to tag things properly.

-Joseph Eisenberg

On 12/21/19, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 1:07 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> 20 Dec 2019, 01:25 by ba...@ursamundi.org:
>>
>> So, for example, in the US, instead of motorway, trunk, primary,
>> secondary, tertiary, perhaps something more like freeway, expressway,
>> major/minor_principal (just having this would fix a *lot* of problems
>> with
>> Texas and Missouri and their extensive secondary systems),
>> major/minor_collector...the US just has a way more complex view of how
>> highways work.
>>
>> Or at least some more serious consideration given to the proposal at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:UltimateRiff/HFCS (but perhaps
>> with "other principal arterials" as primary and a new
>> "highway=quartinary".
>>
>> Fitting thing like road classification
>> into UK system is irritating at times.
>>
>> But idea of each country with separate tags
>> for roads is simply a bad idea.
>>
>
> Could you expand on this?  Being able to speak each country's highway
> lingua franca would make it a lot easier for OSM to become the Rosetta
> Stone of maps simply from ease of classification.
>
>
>> This info is probably worth recording,
>> but legal status should go into a separate tag.
>>
>
> Legal status of roads in the US isn't quite as clearcut as it is in the UK,
> where the highway=* tag is literally equal to that country's legal
> classification, plus private roads with significant public passage and/or
> reach.  Off the top of my head we have 1 country, 2 states, 34 tribes, 77
> counties and 597 towns, plus MacQuarie Group Australia running the
> turnpikes and the Boy Scouts of America, Phillips 66, ConocoPhillips, or
> some combination of the three, and potentially scores more private
> entities, operating extensive networks of publicly accessible roads and
> highways in Oklahoma.  And I generally consider myself lucky I have it
> *this* straightforward in the US.
>
> Texas likely has similar situations but throw in the fact that they have 7
> different state highway systems before you get into at least 3 more
> (regional? state? private? unclear...) competing turnpike networks,
> sometimes running side by side on the same right of way (consider TX 121
> with the George Bush Turnpike operated by the North Texas Transportation
> Agency running down the median).
>
> Simply starting with the HFCS and expanding from that (particularly on the
> freeway/expressway distinction, and having more levels between secondary
> and unclassified) would be a fantastic boon to dealing with this mess in a
> more concise fashion as it changes highway=* tagging from almost entirely
> subjective to subjective but within a limited range.  Establish wiki pages
> describing how each region works and let the consumers sort it out from
> there.
>
> At an absolute minimum, we really need to establish values lower than
> tertiary yet above unclassified, and we definitely do need to make the
> freeway/expressway distinction.
>

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 4:41 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
>
>
> 20 Dec 2019, 23:04 by graemefi...@gmail.com:
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 19:18, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 20. Dec 2019, at 04:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > that [/the/] (one & only) road servicing an area is dirt, if you're
> lucky, 2 lanes wide, but is used constantly by heavy traffic (semi-trailers
> with 3 o4 4 trailers on the back).
> >
> > How do we tie that into the nice neat Motorway > Primary > Secondary etc
> arrangement?
>
>
> lanes=2
> surface=unpaved
>
>
> Thanks, Martin :-)
>
> But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?
>
> While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not
> high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?
>
> Main road linking villages (even unpaved
> and unmaintained) is
> highway=unclassified (yes, confusing name
> is confusing).
>

The British idea of "unclassified" maps nicely in Alaska to borough roads
(I would generally assume to be paved or at least graded if not graded and
graveled), since the usable space on U roads in the UK is substantially
smaller than tertiary and lanes are typically not present, or even singular
despite two way travel.


> Maybe this fits here?
>

Eeeh, maybe, but a long stretch.  In the US, it's generally established
that state highways are highway=secondary, even if unpaved, in the lower 48
and Hawaii.  Though the "unpaved" part has been obsolete since AR 220 went
from surface=dirt (it wasn't even graveled) to surface=asphalt, 4 years ago
in two weeks in the lower 48 and Hawaii.  Alaska is currently the only
state, territory or posession of the US that has unpaved state highways and
the last of the same that will ever have unpaved highways in the Eisenhower
Interstate Defense Highway System (despite having no signed network US:I
routes presently).  With that context, AK 2 fits pretty obviously as
highway=secondary.  Based on my look just now, looks like that's a good fit
saved for portions within Fairbanks metro, which would be a good
highway=trunk segment.  There are no portions that I see as rising to
highway=motorway, despite being presently mapped as such in some parts of
Fairbanks.
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 1:07 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
> 20 Dec 2019, 01:25 by ba...@ursamundi.org:
>
> So, for example, in the US, instead of motorway, trunk, primary,
> secondary, tertiary, perhaps something more like freeway, expressway,
> major/minor_principal (just having this would fix a *lot* of problems with
> Texas and Missouri and their extensive secondary systems),
> major/minor_collector...the US just has a way more complex view of how
> highways work.
>
> Or at least some more serious consideration given to the proposal at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:UltimateRiff/HFCS (but perhaps
> with "other principal arterials" as primary and a new "highway=quartinary".
>
> Fitting thing like road classification
> into UK system is irritating at times.
>
> But idea of each country with separate tags
> for roads is simply a bad idea.
>

Could you expand on this?  Being able to speak each country's highway
lingua franca would make it a lot easier for OSM to become the Rosetta
Stone of maps simply from ease of classification.


> This info is probably worth recording,
> but legal status should go into a separate tag.
>

Legal status of roads in the US isn't quite as clearcut as it is in the UK,
where the highway=* tag is literally equal to that country's legal
classification, plus private roads with significant public passage and/or
reach.  Off the top of my head we have 1 country, 2 states, 34 tribes, 77
counties and 597 towns, plus MacQuarie Group Australia running the
turnpikes and the Boy Scouts of America, Phillips 66, ConocoPhillips, or
some combination of the three, and potentially scores more private
entities, operating extensive networks of publicly accessible roads and
highways in Oklahoma.  And I generally consider myself lucky I have it
*this* straightforward in the US.

Texas likely has similar situations but throw in the fact that they have 7
different state highway systems before you get into at least 3 more
(regional? state? private? unclear...) competing turnpike networks,
sometimes running side by side on the same right of way (consider TX 121
with the George Bush Turnpike operated by the North Texas Transportation
Agency running down the median).

Simply starting with the HFCS and expanding from that (particularly on the
freeway/expressway distinction, and having more levels between secondary
and unclassified) would be a fantastic boon to dealing with this mess in a
more concise fashion as it changes highway=* tagging from almost entirely
subjective to subjective but within a limited range.  Establish wiki pages
describing how each region works and let the consumers sort it out from
there.

At an absolute minimum, we really need to establish values lower than
tertiary yet above unclassified, and we definitely do need to make the
freeway/expressway distinction.
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
+1 for "cargo_bike", including cargo tricycles and pedalled electric
bicycles and trikes.

On 12/20/19, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Florimond Berthoux wrote:
>> I’m really here just to know the english word.
>> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
>> cargo_bike if none disapprove.
>
> It's definitely a cargo bike in British English too.
>
> Richard
> (owner of a Circe Morpheus, which is a cargo bike of sorts:
> https://www.circecycles.com/products/solutions/cargo/ )
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Tagging-f5258744.html
>
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 23:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Thanks, Paul - I don't disagree with a word you said, except maybe the
> importance of road construction?
>

It's complicated, but you understand the difference between a motorway (or
whatever
it is called where you are) and a dirt track.

>
> I mentioned "performance" & "importance" as they are the definitions used
> for highway=trunk
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrunk
>

Doesn't mean those are universally applicalbe.  Those are largely UK
definitions.
They are basically routeing definitions.  An A-road is a good way of
getting from
A to B and a B-road is a worse way of doing it,  Depending upon whether your
metric is shortest distance or best road surface or fastest speed if there
is no
other traffic or,,,

>
> In some of the cases that I'm thinking of, these are the only roads, so
> yes, very important.
>
>
But that's still a routeing question.  Yeah, it's the only way from A to
B.  But it's
still  a dirt track, not a motorway.  Use the standard query tool to ask
how to
get from A to B and it will find it.

 we map dirt tracks between Hell's Bumhole and Arse-end Of Nowhere as
> motorways because they're the only way of getting from one place to the
> other?  No, no, a
>
thousand times no.
>
> & yes, yes, a thousand times yes, :-) I agree that they shouldn't be
> =motorways, BUT, they should be either =trunk or =primary, because, in this
> area, they are the main road, & so are of vital importance!
>

Nope, it's down to construction/legality.  Your "vital/importance"
distinction is mere
routeing.  We in the UK have blurred the distinction between
construction/legality
issues and routeing.

--
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Above it was said that the highway=trunk vs highway=primary
distinction is mostly for routing applications. But allowing a proper
rendering is also a main goal of the road tagging system.

While it's true that road class is useful for routing when there are
two alterate routes, a main reason to tag highways with a certain
class is to be able to render maps properly at different zoom levels.

When you are making a high-scale, low-zoom-level map of a large area
(say, the whole State of Alaska, all of England, or all of Australia),
you will want to only render highway=motorway + highway=trunk, because
showing all highway=primary would lead to rendering many smaller roads
which are not reasonable to show at that scale in most places.

In England, where these tags were developed, the distinction between
highway=trunk and highway=primary is subtle: both are "A" roads in the
official classification system, but highway=trunk has a special
sub-classification which says they are more important than other "A"
roads (tagged as primary): "UK OSM users follow the practice that all
green-signed A routes (ie primary routes) are tagged highway=trunk,
while black-and-white-signed A-roads (ie non-primary routes) are
tagged highway=primary".

Thus in the USA it's reasonable to use highway=primary for most State
and some US highways, while the most significant ones which connect
cities and large towns would be tagged highway=trunk.

Look at England at z7 on the Openstreetmap-carto style (the highest
level where highway=primary is not shown):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/52.017/-0.261

The highway=trunk roads shown here are the main routes between cities
and towns. Zooming in to z8 shows a dense network of highway=primary
roads connecting smaller towns and large villages to towns and cities,
which would not be reasonable to show at z7

Unfortunately, the road classification system in parts of Continental
Europe was different, so mappers in some major countries, including
Germany and France, chose to use highway=trunk as synonym for
"motorroad" (somewhat similar to a U.S.A. "expressway"), with other
major roads tagged as highway=primary. If you look around the
Openstreetmap-carto rendering of Europ at z7, you will see many gaps
in the rendered road network in these countries and surrounding areas
that use the same system.

Compare Spain and Romania, which instead use highway=trunk for all major non-
motorway roads between cities: here the country-wide road network is
clearly visible with showing just highway=trunk and highway=motorway
at z6 and z7.

In the USA, it's fine to limit highway=trunk to expressways in eastern
States where all the important US highways are expressways and these
form a dense network connecting all cities and towns. But in
sparsely-populated Western states even some of the Interstate highways
are not fully motorways, and almost all US highways are just 2 lanes
(one each way) in the area between the Cascades and the Rocky
Mountains, even those that are the main cross-State routes. If we
don't tag these highways as highway=trunk it isn't possible to render
this area in a reasonable way while using the same rendering rules for
the whole USA.

Major US and State highways between cities, like AK-2 and CA-199,
CA-299, US 97 (main route in Eastern Oregon) and US 101 should be
tagged as more significant than a tiny State road in Delaware which
only connects small towns and villages.

I would suggest looking at the Indonesian road tagging guidelines
(which I was not involved in developing, but I use in mapping
locally): they show very different road quality between the developed
areas and the remote parts of the country:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Examples_of_road_class_in_several_provinces_in_Indonesia.
Most trunk roads are only 1 lane each way, but they are still the
main, National road connecting the large cities on each island. This
should be expected in other large countries like the USA, Australia
and Canada.

For tagging the status of a road as a "motorroad" or "expressway" I
would recommend using the tags motorroad=yes and expressway=yes,
rather than tagging all expressways and motorroads as highway=trunk no
matter their classification or significance in the road network. And
adding maxspeed=, surface=, lanes= and access=  will allow routing
applications and specialized renderers to treat these roads properly.

Joseph Eisenberg

On 12/21/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 08:53, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 22:05, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?
>>>
>>> While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not
>>> high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?
>>>
>>
>> You have just identified three orthogonal dimensions:
>>
>>- Construction (what you call "performance": motorway or dirt track)
>>- Traffic (number of 

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 23:05, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
>> lanes=2
>> surface=unpaved
> 
> Thanks, Martin :-)
> 
> But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?
> 
> While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not 
> high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?


secondary? 

If they are sufficiently important (for a big area, which maybe doesn’t have 
major population centres), I would consider primary. In Germany or Italy roads 
like this would not qualify for trunk, because we’re using the tag only for 
roads without level grade intersections, but AFAIK there is no globally agreed 
upon definition for trunk.


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 08:53, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 22:05, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?
>>
>> While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not
>> high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?
>>
>
> You have just identified three orthogonal dimensions:
>
>- Construction (what you call "performance": motorway or dirt track)
>- Traffic (number of vehicles per hour)
>- "Importance" (read on)
>
> Thanks, Paul - I don't disagree with a word you said, except maybe the
importance of road construction?

I mentioned "performance" & "importance" as they are the definitions used
for highway=trunk
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrunk

"Use highway =trunk for
high performance or high importance roads that don't meet the requirement
for motorway .
In different countries, either performance or importance is used as the
defining criterion for trunk"

While =primary refers to "A major highway linking large towns, in developed
countries normally with 2 lanes. In areas with worse infrastructure road
quality may be far worse"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dprimary


> If the only way of getting from A to B is along a particular road, it's
> very important.
>

In some of the cases that I'm thinking of, these are the only roads, so
yes, very important.


> Do we need to broaden our classes of construction/legality somewhat to
> encompass
> standards in countries outside the UK?  Probably.  Are the values for the
> highway key
> UK-centric and somewhat misleading?  Sure.
>

Thank you!


> Should we map dirt tracks between Hell's Bumhole and Arse-end Of Nowhere
> as motorways because they're the only
> way of getting from one place to the other?  No, no, a thousand times no.
>

& yes, yes, a thousand times yes, :-) I agree that they shouldn't be
=motorways, BUT, they should be either =trunk or =primary, because, in this
area, they are the main road, & so are of vital importance!

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

2019-12-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Just duty_free=yes would be good for a shop in town which offers tax-free
sales for international travelers.

But the tag ship=duty_free is probably fine for shops in the international
airport terminal which sell a mix of alcohol, perfume and other expensive
gifts.

Joseph

On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 7:59 AM Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:

> On 12/20/19 16:35, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> > Using shop=duty_free would unfortunately remove possible existing tags
> > like shop=fashion, therefore I hope for additional tags as I mentioned.
> And I think this is enough reason to deprecate shop=duty_free in favor
> of e.g. shop:duty_free=yes or similar.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
> http://www.rantroulette.com
> http://www.skqrecordquest.com
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

2019-12-20 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 12/20/19 16:35, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> Using shop=duty_free would unfortunately remove possible existing tags
> like shop=fashion, therefore I hope for additional tags as I mentioned.
And I think this is enough reason to deprecate shop=duty_free in favor
of e.g. shop:duty_free=yes or similar.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 22:05, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?
>
> While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not
> high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?
>

You have just identified three orthogonal dimensions:

   - Construction (what you call "performance": motorway or dirt track)
   - Traffic (number of vehicles per hour)
   - "Importance" (read on)

Depending on the country (or area of a country) those three may be highly
correlated or loosely correlated.  And even within a given area of a given
country, the degree of correlation may vary.

I put "importance" in quotes because I think it's really routeing.  If the
only
way of getting from A to B is along a particular road, it's very
important.  If
you can get from A to B via many routes, but one is by far the shortest,
it's
probably important.  OTOH if, of the many routes from A to B, one is very
much shorter than the others but one of the others takes far less time to
traverse then that second one is probably more important.  So I think
"importance" really means "routeing" (feel free to contradict me).

So how do we represent these three dimensions on a map?  I'd say we go
primarily by construction (with some concession to legalities, because
motorways/
freeways/autobahns have legal constraints that differ from other highways).
  Traffic
rates are irrelevant to what is physically there (but have some bearing on
choosing a
route) and routeing is a decision left to algorithms.

Note that routeing algorithms can be run by a computer or they can be run
by wetware in a human brain looking at representations on a map.  So...

Is the route between A and B a motorway or a dirt track?  This is important
for
routeing algorithms on computers and in human wetware because it indicates
typical speed limits, legal requirements, etc.  Is this the shortest route
between
A and B?  A routeing algorithm can determine that whether it's represented
as
a motorway or a dirt track, and so can a human looking at a map.  Is it the
fastest route between A and B?  A routeing algorithm can determine that from
speed limits, but wetware is aided by seeing if the map renders it as a
motorway
or a dirt track.  Is it important?  Depends whether you want to go from A
to B or not,
but the desirability of using it to get from A to B is down to routeing
algorithms
(whether computer or human wetware).

So I come down firmly on construction (as modified by legislation0.  That's
verifiable.
All else is essentially routeing, whether done by computer or done by
wetware in a
human brain looking at a map.  Want to get from A to B?  That's what the
query tool
in standard carto is for.  Maybe one day it will offer the choice of
"fastest" and
"shortest" (maybe it already does).  Or just look at the map, as we boomers
are
used to from looking at printed maps, and figure out what the best route
might be.

Do we need to broaden our classes of construction/legality somewhat to
encompass
standards in countries outside the UK?  Probably.  Are the values for the
highway key
UK-centric and somewhat misleading?  Sure.  Should we map dirt tracks
between
Hell's Bumhole and Arse-end Of Nowhere as motorways because they're the only
way of getting from one place to the other?  No, no, a thousand times no.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Mateusz Konieczny



20 Dec 2019, 23:04 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 19:18, Martin Koppenhoefer <> dieterdre...@gmail.com> 
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On 20. Dec 2019, at 04:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick <>> graemefi...@gmail.com>> 
>> > > wrote:
>>  > 
>>  > that [/the/] (one & only) road servicing an area is dirt, if you're 
>> lucky, 2 lanes wide, but is used constantly by heavy traffic (semi-trailers 
>> with 3 o4 4 trailers on the back).
>>  > 
>>  > How do we tie that into the nice neat Motorway > Primary > Secondary etc 
>> arrangement?
>>  
>>  
>>  lanes=2
>>  surface=unpaved
>>
>
> Thanks, Martin :-)
>
> But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?
>
> While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not 
> high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?
>
Main road linking villages (even unpaved
and unmaintained) is 
highway=unclassified (yes, confusing name
is confusing).

Maybe this fits here?

There are also secondary, tertiary
for main links between 
smaller settlements (and also the main
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

2019-12-20 Thread Hauke Stieler
Hi Graeme,

unfortunately the situation is slightly different in Germany. Those
shops I meant are no duty-free shops in general. According to the German
customs [0] the refund of the taxes is also only possible under certain
conditions. As far as I understand it's not possible for me as German
citizen to get tax refund.

Using shop=duty_free would unfortunately remove possible existing tags
like shop=fashion, therefore I hope for additional tags as I mentioned.

Greetings
Hauke

[0]
https://www.zoll.de/EN/Private-individuals/Travel/Leaving-Germany/Tax-free-shopping/tax-free-shopping.html

On 20.12.19 23:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Hauke Stieler  > wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently found several stores (pharmacy, clothing store, jewelery and
> others) which offer "tax free shopping". For those of you who don't know
> it, this works as follows:
> 
> 
>   At least in Australia, & apparently internationally as well, they're
> "duty-free" shops, frequently found at airports, but can also be in just
> normal retail areas.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty-free_shop  
> 
> According to taginfo, shop=duty_free has been used 56 times.
> 
> That may be what you're looking for?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

2019-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Hauke Stieler  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I recently found several stores (pharmacy, clothing store, jewelery and
> others) which offer "tax free shopping". For those of you who don't know
> it, this works as follows:
>

  At least in Australia, & apparently internationally as well, they're
"duty-free" shops, frequently found at airports, but can also be in just
normal retail areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty-free_shop

According to taginfo, shop=duty_free has been used 56 times.

That may be what you're looking for?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 19:18, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> > On 20. Dec 2019, at 04:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > that [/the/] (one & only) road servicing an area is dirt, if you're
> lucky, 2 lanes wide, but is used constantly by heavy traffic (semi-trailers
> with 3 o4 4 trailers on the back).
> >
> > How do we tie that into the nice neat Motorway > Primary > Secondary etc
> arrangement?
>
>
> lanes=2
> surface=unpaved
>

Thanks, Martin :-)

But would they still count as either =trunk or =primary?

While they're of high local importance, they're definitely not
high-performance & they don't link major population centres either?

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

2019-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt
Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used (the
wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should be) and
in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of roundtrip=yes|no for
anything else than loop=yes|no.
It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
A fast overpass turbo wizard query
"type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
Italy|France|England|USA|Bayern"
resulted in
Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
England:  25 lines, all loops.
USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
I think this is a strong case against any change.

Taginfo points in the same direction
12665 roundtrip=no
21774 roundtrip=yes
42 closed_loop=yes
no closed_loop=no

Volker






On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

> In my opinion the options are:
>
> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
> convention (best at this point)
> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
> (relations must be updated accordingly)
>
> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not a
> resolution because tag is currently messed up
>
> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha
> scritto:
>
>> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>>
>> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
>> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
>> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
>> meaning of the term in British English.
>>
>>
>> The OED definitions read as follows:
>>
>> Originally U.S.
>>  A. n.
>>  1.
>>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
>> journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
>> ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>>
>>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>>
>>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an act
>> of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>>
>>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
>> and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
>> round turn n. 4.
>>
>>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>>
>>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
>> Compounds 1.
>>
>>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>>
>>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>>
>>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>>
>> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
>> American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.
>>
>> --
>> Steve
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Re: [Tagging] pavement placed plaque

2019-12-20 Thread Andy Townsend

On 20/12/2019 20:41, ael wrote:

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 06:02:50PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:

Hi

I've a carved stone plaque(?) that's fixed flush into the pavement. it's to
indicate the start/finish point of a long distance walk.
https://whatsdavedoing.com/cotswold-way-guide/#start

Two questions:

1 Is plaque the best name? Our Wiki quotes Wikipedia as it being vertical,
but that seems a bit restrictive to me.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:memorial%3Dplaque
  
  It seems to be a sort of waymark to me. As far as I can see, we don't

  have a generic tag for waymarks, although there are lots of special
  cases like milestons. Perhaps we should have a waymark tag with subtags
  for material and orientation?


Here's one I made earlier:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6960819404

I went with "tourism=information; information=stone" to parallel 
"information=guidepost" and "information=route_marker" which are more 
commonly used as route markers.


Another example (tagged slightly differently, that probably wouldn't 
work for the Cotswold Way one) is:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1651183163

Another one (not part of a route this time) is

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6785704793

That one is a stone flush with the pavement nd sounds a bit like yours 
but perhaps a bit more arty.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] pavement placed plaque

2019-12-20 Thread ael
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 06:02:50PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I've a carved stone plaque(?) that's fixed flush into the pavement. it's to
> indicate the start/finish point of a long distance walk.
> https://whatsdavedoing.com/cotswold-way-guide/#start
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1 Is plaque the best name? Our Wiki quotes Wikipedia as it being vertical,
> but that seems a bit restrictive to me.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:memorial%3Dplaque
 
 It seems to be a sort of waymark to me. As far as I can see, we don't
 have a generic tag for waymarks, although there are lots of special
 cases like milestons. Perhaps we should have a waymark tag with subtags
 for material and orientation?

 ael


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Re: [Tagging] pavement placed plaque

2019-12-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:03, Dave F via Tagging 
wrote:

>
> 1 Is plaque the best name? Our Wiki quotes Wikipedia as it being vertical,
> but that seems a bit restrictive to me.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:memorial%3Dplaque
>

The wiki actually says "typically attached to a wall, stone, or other
vertical
surface."  Typically, not always.  I've seen memorial plaques that are about
30 degrees to the horizontal.

2. Are there any alternatives to 'memorial' which again, seems too
> specific/restrictive,  tourism=information, information=plaque maybe?


For the example you give, calling it a memorial seems wrong.  It isn't
commemorating
anything.  memorial=plaque is often used with historic=memorial.  The wiki
for that
says "A feature for tagging smaller memorials usually remembering special
persons,
peoples lost their lives in the wars, past events or missing places."

I'd say that tourism=information + information=plaque is better.  You could
maybe
go with tourism=information + information=board + board_type=geography but
few people would expect to see a horizontal board.  Since information says
user-defined values are OK then information=plaque.

If somebody can come up with a word for plaques set in the ground, then go
with that.

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Re: [Tagging] eelgrass

2019-12-20 Thread Jerry Clough - OSM via Tagging
Apologies for top-posting, but the interface in the browser does not enable me 
to make any sense of multiple comments. Anyway here goes:
Zostera (eel-grass) grows below the tide line, so really is not an emergent 
plant. Other things in your list of aquatic bed vegetation are also not usually 
apparent on the surface (e.g., Chara). Some such as Kelp will be visible at the 
lowest tides. I don't think any of these sensibly qualify for the current 
natural=wetland tag, which implicitly connotes emergent vegetation typically on 
a land surface which can dry out. Some emergent vegetation will have it's foot 
in the water, but water depth will be shallow (typical Phragmites beds). I'd 
suggest considering a new tag for submerged vegetation in marine environments.
At this point I'm not sure about freshwater vegetation which is totally 
submerged (but see below).
For the detailed US classification of wetlands, this is what the 
plant_community tag is there for: more detailed, more scientifically precise 
categories. Obviously many of these are not easy for the average mapper to 
identify, but when information is available it is often a good way of enhancing 
the base tagging. I think there is also a US National Vegetation 
Classification. I've documented some parts of the UK equivalent, including one 
of the types of Alder Carr (equivalent to your Alder meadow).
Phragmites does grow in estuarine environments, with brackish water.
I learnt some years ago that German usage of reedbed (Rohr) includes other tall 
emergent plants: notably sedges (Carex), Cladium, reed-mace/cat's-tails 
(Typha), cane (Arundo) and club-rushes. PresumabThus the meaning of 
wetland=reedbed may well be wider than expected in some countries. One way to 
be sure is to add a dominant_taxon tag (e.g., Phragmites australis, Carex, 
Typha etc).
As for floating water plants (which I would not particularly class as emergent, 
including water-lilies) they can have odd life cycles. Some living on the bed 
of the water body when dormant and later floating during the growth season 
(Water Soldier & Frogbit). There are certainly places in France where a carpet 
of Duckweed coats the waterways during the summer. Unlike Kelp & Eelgrass beds 
(one a significant carbon sink, the other increasingly threatened) I've never 
felt the need to map such things (they are seasonal, and usually quite small 
features). Even something like Water Hyacinth which does form large patches is 
likely to change because of control measures.
Jerry

In Wednesday, 18 December 2019, 22:25:50 GMT, Kevin Kenny 
 wrote:  
 
 On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:08 PM Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
> How should eelgrass[1] be tagged? I see that wetland=reedbed [2]  has been 
> used in tidal areas mainly in Europe but also in the US but they are two 
> different plants.

Perhaps wetland_class=emergent or wetland_class=aquatic_bed? (How does
the eelgrass grow in the area you're considering?)

Thus saith 'Classification of Wetlands and Deepwater Habitats of the
United States' (https://www.fws.gov/wetlands/documents/classwet/index.html):

https://www.fws.gov/wetlands/documents/classwet/emergent.htm :
Definition. The Emergent Wetland Class is characterized by erect,
rooted, herbaceous hydrophytes, excluding mosses and lichens. This
vegetation is present for most of the growing season in most years.
These wetlands are usually dominated by perennial plants. All water
regimes are included except subtidal and irregularly exposed.


https://www.fws.gov/wetlands/documents/classwet/aquatic.htm
Definition. The Class Aquatic Bed includes wetlands and deepwater
habitats dominated by plants that grow principally on or below the
surface of the water for most of the growing season in most years.
Water regimes include subtidal, irregularly exposed, regularly
flooded, permanently flooded, intermittently exposed, semipermanently
flooded, and seasonally flooded.

Aquatic beds further divide into algal (e.g., kelp, rockweed,
stoneword), moss (e.g. Fisseidens, Fontinalis), rooted vascular
(Zostera would fall in this category), and floating vascular
(duckweed, water lettuce, water hyacinth, water-nut (Trapa), water
fern (Salvinia), bladderwort, and so on).

Rooted vascular aquatic beds occur in marine, estuarine, riverine,
lacustrine and palustrine systems

Some species, such as the water lily Nuphar luteum, are hard to
classify between 'aquatic bed' and 'emergent', since it usually grows
as lily pads, but occasionally stands erect above the water surface.
Some of the eelgrasses have the same difficulty in classifying.

The categories are always going to be fuzzy around the edges.

USFWS would therefore label your eelgrass bed - if I understand
correctly what you're trying to label - as "Marine, subtidal, aquatic
bed, rooted vascular"  while a typical reedbed might be "palustrine,
emergent wetland, persistent, dominant vegetation Phragmites spp." and
a typical alder meadow near me could be "palustrine, scrub-shrub
wetland, 

[Tagging] pavement placed plaque

2019-12-20 Thread Dave F via Tagging

Hi

I've a carved stone plaque(?) that's fixed flush into the pavement. it's 
to indicate the start/finish point of a long distance walk. 
https://whatsdavedoing.com/cotswold-way-guide/#start


Two questions:

1 Is plaque the best name? Our Wiki quotes Wikipedia as it being 
vertical, but that seems a bit restrictive to me.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:memorial%3Dplaque

2. Are there any alternatives to 'memorial' which again, seems too 
specific/restrictive, tourism=information, information=plaque maybe?


Anybody have similar examples?

Cheers
DaveF
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

2019-12-20 Thread Francesco Ansanelli
In my opinion the options are:

- deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
convention (best at this point)
- keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
(relations must be updated accordingly)

I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not a
resolution because tag is currently messed up

Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr  ha scritto:

> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>
> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
> meaning of the term in British English.
>
>
> The OED definitions read as follows:
>
> Originally U.S.
>  A. n.
>  1.
>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
> journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
> ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>
>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>
>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an act
> of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>
>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
> and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
> round turn n. 4.
>
>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>
>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
> Compounds 1.
>
>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>
>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>
>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>
> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
> American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.
>
> --
> Steve
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Re: [Tagging] Public WLAN boxes

2019-12-20 Thread marc marc
Le 20.12.19 à 15:47, Cascafico Giovanni a écrit :
> 
> 
> Il mer 18 dic 2019, 16:48 Tom Pfeifer ha scritto:
> 
> 
> The 'box' would contain a full access point and not just the
> antenna, thus I'd prefer not to tag the
> antenna alone.
> 
> 
> So how to tag the whole hardware? 
> Shall I refer to Key:communication:radio:repeater?

2/3 objets exist :
the antenna itself
the box amenity=wlan
you may add support=* if you also want.
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Re: [Tagging] Public WLAN boxes

2019-12-20 Thread Cascafico Giovanni
Il mer 18 dic 2019, 16:48 Tom Pfeifer  ha scritto:

>
> The 'box' would contain a full access point and not just the antenna, thus
> I'd prefer not to tag the
> antenna alone.
>

So how to tag the whole hardware? Shall I refer
to Key:communication:radio:repeater?

>
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Re: [Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

2019-12-20 Thread Steve Doerr

On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are 
dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by 
OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have 
explained the meaning of the term in British English.


The OED definitions read as follows:

   Originally U.S.
 A. n.
 1.
 a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route;
   (also) a journey to one or more places and back again which does not
   cover the same ground twice, a circular tour or trip.

 b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.

 2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry)
   an act of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.

 3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of
   buying and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often
   simultaneously. Cf. round turn n. 4.

 B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.

 1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return
   n. Compounds 1.

 2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).

 C. adv. Chiefly North American.

  As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.

Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an 
American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.


--
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[Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

2019-12-20 Thread Hauke Stieler
Hi,

I recently found several stores (pharmacy, clothing store, jewelery and
others) which offer "tax free shopping". For those of you who don't know
it, this works as follows:

You buy something and next to your normal receipt, you'll also get an
additional receipt with some tax information on it. When you travel back
home and come along the airport, you can hand this tax-receipt in and
get the taxes back.

Not all shops are offering this service and I couldn't find any suitable
tag. Does such tag exist or is this something new?

I think of something like "tax_refund=" or "tax_free=" (for shops at the
airport where you don't pay any taxes).

Greetings
Hauke (aka hauke-stieler)



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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Florimond Berthoux wrote:
> I’m really here just to know the english word.
> In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
> cargo_bike if none disapprove.

It's definitely a cargo bike in British English too.

Richard
(owner of a Circe Morpheus, which is a cargo bike of sorts:
https://www.circecycles.com/products/solutions/cargo/ )



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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Florimond Berthoux
Well, I don’t know what the french law say, but that’s not an issue,
we don’t tag the law ;)
I’m really here just to know the english word.
In France we also say "vélo cargo" (cargo bike), so I’d go for
cargo_bike if none disapprove.

Le ven. 20 déc. 2019 à 10:42, Martin Koppenhoefer
 a écrit :
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 20. Dec 2019, at 09:42, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> Just for information the size limits for bicycles in Italy (from Polizia di 
> Stato):
>
>
>
> in other words the Italian law doesn’t distinguish between cargo bikes and 
> other bikes. What about France?
>
> Cheers Martin
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



-- 
Florimond Berthoux

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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt
> in other words the Italian law doesn’t distinguish between cargo bikes and
> other bikes.
>
Looks like it.

But: most cargo bikes are not "bicycles" or "pedelecs"  because they have
more powerful motors - they fall into the S-pedelec class of vehicles, with
number plates, insurance ecc. I presume they fall into this class:

" a) i *quadricicli leggeri*, la cui massa a vuoto è inferiore o pari a 350
kg (categoria L6e), esclusa la massa delle batterie per i veicoli
elettrici, la cui velocità massima per costruzione è inferiore o uguale a
45 km/h e
1) la cui cilindrata del motore è inferiore o pari a 50 cm3 per i motori ad
accensione comandata; o
2) la cui potenza massima netta è inferiore o uguale a 4 kW per gli altri
motori a combustione interna; o
3) la cui potenza nominale continua massima è inferiore o uguale a 4 kW per
i motori elettrici. Tali veicoli sono conformi alle prescrizioni tecniche
applicabili ai ciclomotori a tre ruote della categoria L2e salvo altrimenti
disposto da una direttiva CE particolare."

and with these dimension limits:
Le dimensioni massime autorizzate dei veicoli a motore a due o tre ruote
sono le seguenti:
- lunghezza: 4,00 m;
- larghezza: 1,00 m per i ciclomotori a due ruote;
- larghezza: 2,00 m per gli altri veicoli;
- altezza: 2,50 m.

(source: ACI

)

Volker
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 09:42, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Just for information the size limits for bicycles in Italy (from Polizia di 
> Stato):


in other words the Italian law doesn’t distinguish between cargo bikes and 
other bikes. What about France?

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

2019-12-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2019, at 04:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> that [/the/] (one & only) road servicing an area is dirt, if you're lucky, 2 
> lanes wide, but is used constantly by heavy traffic (semi-trailers with 3 o4 
> 4 trailers on the back).
> 
> How do we tie that into the nice neat Motorway > Primary > Secondary etc 
> arrangement?


lanes=2
surface=unpaved


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] What access key for cargo bike ?

2019-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 22:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> what’s the legal definition for this kind of bicycle in France? Are there
> minimum/maximum dimensions? Number of wheels?
>

Just for information the size limits for bicycles in Italy (from Polizia di
Stato

):
" Il codice li chiama "velocipedi" e li definisce come veicoli a 2 o più
ruote mosse dalla propulsione muscolare umana attraverso pedali o analoghi
dispositivi."
("The highway code calls them" velocipedi "and defines them as vehicles
with 2 or more wheels moved by human muscle propulsion through pedals or
similar devices.")

"Chi li costruisce, ma anche chi li utilizza sulla strada, deve rispettare
precise disposizioni per quanto riguarda le loro dimensioni massime: 1,30 m
di larghezza, 3 m di lunghezza, 2,20 m di altezza"
("Who builds them, but also who uses them on the road, must respect precise
dispositions regarding their maximum dimensions: 1,30m of width, 3m of
length, 2,20m of height")

And for completeness:
" A tutti i tipi di velocipedi possono essere agganciati rimorchi costruiti
appositamente per tali veicoli, a condizione che: la lunghezza del
velocipede e del rimorchio non superi 3 m; la larghezza massima totale del
rimorchio non sia superiore a 75 cm; l'altezza massima, compreso il carico,
non sia superiore a 1 m; la massa trasportabile, non sia superiore a 50 kg.
Su questi rimorchi è consentito anche il trasporto di bambini, nei limiti
sopraindicati."
("All types of cycles can be equipped with trailers specifically built for
these vehicles, provided that: the length of the velocipede and of the
trailer does not exceed 3 m, the maximum total width of the trailer is not
more than 75 cm, the maximum height; including the load, it should not
exceed 1 m, the transportable mass should not exceed 50 kg.On these
trailers children may also be transported within the limits indicated
above")
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