Re: [Tagging] Change emergency=lifeboat-station to water-rescue

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry, meant to include the link to the previous discussions:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-December/066606.html

Thanks

Graeme


On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 at 16:16, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Hi all & welcome back to the New Year!
>
> With Christmas over, & the start of a new month, thought it must be time
> to revisit
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station
>
> Just prior to Christmas, I had suggested, following various suggestions,
> that this proposal could be changed to become emergency=water_rescue, but
> leave emergency=lifeguard untouched. (Helicopter rescue would also be the
> subject of a further proposal)
>
> Could I please ask for your feedback on the basic idea?
>
> If acceptable, I will re-write the proposal & re-submit it for further RFC.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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[Tagging] Change emergency=lifeboat-station to water-rescue

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi all & welcome back to the New Year!

With Christmas over, & the start of a new month, thought it must be time to
revisit
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station

Just prior to Christmas, I had suggested, following various suggestions,
that this proposal could be changed to become emergency=water_rescue, but
leave emergency=lifeguard untouched. (Helicopter rescue would also be the
subject of a further proposal)

Could I please ask for your feedback on the basic idea?

If acceptable, I will re-write the proposal & re-submit it for further RFC.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Private ambulance / patient transport service

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/01/2023 22:42, Illia Marchenko wrote:

Graeme Fitzpatrick :

A suggestion on the forum of amenity=training for the first-air
training side of things + a description of everything else.


Note that the proposal for  amenity
=training was rejected.
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training 



To be clear, what was rejected was the wiki page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training because 
it suggested deprecating a bunch of other tags.  There are still 3k 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=training in use, and it 
still may be the best fit for "training" if there is an outward-facing 
training facility that doesn't really fit anywhere else.


"office=company" would surely work for the main office though.

Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Tagging] Private ambulance / patient transport service

[Illia Marchenko]

Graeme Fitzpatrick :

> A suggestion on the forum of amenity=training for the first-air training
> side of things + a description of everything else.
>

Note that the proposal for  amenity
=training was rejected.
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training
Regards,
Illia.

>
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Re: [Tagging] Private ambulance / patient transport service

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 at 22:33, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> That would be very misleading, these are not the normal public ambulance
> service crewed by paramedics who you contact in an emergency.
>
> There is one locally who provide patient transport between hospitals for
> the NHS. I would go with a commercial landuse and company=patient_transport
> and a name.
>

Thanks.

Yes, I'd also like to avoid any suggestion of ambulance or medical as that
doesn't appear to be their prime role, so tagging just as a company office
may be best.

A suggestion on the forum of amenity=training for the first-air training
side of things + a description of everything else.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 at 00:21, Nate Wessel  wrote:

> Would anyone object to an attempt to better cross-reference and
> distinguish these categories?
>

That's always a good idea! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Craig Wallace]

On 2023-01-03 12:51, Philip Barnes wrote:
Shops selling wool are commonly referred to as wool shops so why not 
shop=wool?


Yarn doesn't seem very intuitive to me as a native English speaker.


Nowadays, a lot of yarn is acrylic, or polyester, or cotton, or some 
other materials, or a mixture.

It is not necessarily made of wool. Especially the cheaper stuff.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2023-01-03 at 09:16 -0500, Nate Wessel wrote:
> shop=wool ... this seems like almost exactly what I'm proposing. And
> is used much more frequently than shop=yarn. 
> And yet for me, I never even thought to search for this. And the word
> 'yarn' doesn't actually appear anywhere on the page or it would have
> shown up in my searches of the wiki. 
> It's also not referenced anywhere on the shop=sewing page, which
> explicitly mentions knitting needles, etc. Nor on the shop=fabric nor
> shop=haberdashery pages. 
> It seems like maybe the real problem here is that the various tags
> related to the "fibre-arts" aren't all that well documented yet and
> not at all well cross-referenced. Would anyone object to an attempt
> to better cross-reference and distinguish these categories? 
> In particular it seems to me like shop=wool should encompass things
> like knitting needles, and specify that it would be selling (wool)
> yarn, and not wool fabric as that would fall under shop=fabric. 
> I would also want to drop references to yarn and knitting needles
> from shop=sewing, pointing to shop=wool for that. 
> It seems like shop=haberdashery and shop=sewing need some further
> discussion, as they seem almost impossible to distinguish from the
> wiki documentation. Personally, I always thought of a haberdashery as
> a hat shop?? I somehow hadn't even heard of that tag before this
> discussion. 

These were common back in the 70s, now a big part of the problem is
that most of this trade (along with other many other small specialist
retailers) have been taken up by bigger general purpose shops and craft
shops.

Thinking where do I know of a wool shop locally the answer is I don't
but thinking of where have I seen wool for sale I immediately came up
with The Range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Range_(retailer) and
Charlie's (similar to The Range based in Wales and The Borders).

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jan 3, 2023, 15:16 by n...@natewessel.com:

>
> shop=wool >  ... this 
> seems like almost exactly what I'm proposing. And is used  much > more 
> frequently >  than  shop=yarn. 
>
>
> And yet for me, I never even thought to search for this. And the  word 
> 'yarn' doesn't actually appear anywhere on the page or it  would have 
> shown up in my searches of the wiki. 
>
>
Added in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dwool=2458814=2018646

>
> It's also not referenced anywhere on the > shop=sewing 
> >  page, which 
> explicitly mentions knitting needles, etc. Nor on the > shop=fabric 
> >  nor > 
> shop=haberdashery 
> >  pages. 
>
>
Feel free to add them to "See also" section!

>
> It seems like maybe the real problem here is that the various  tags 
> related to the "fibre-arts" aren't all that well documented  yet and not 
> at all well cross-referenced. Would anyone object to  an attempt to 
> better cross-reference and distinguish these  categories? 
>
>
No, and in general feel free to add such "see also" 
(except cases like linking barely used controversial tags, but this does not 
apply here)

>
> In particular it seems to me like shop=wool should encompass  things like 
> knitting needles, and specify that it would be selling  (wool) yarn, and 
> not wool fabric as that would fall under  shop=fabric. 
>
>
> I would also want to drop references to yarn and knitting needles  from 
> shop=sewing, pointing to shop=wool for that. 
>
>
> It seems like shop=haberdashery and shop=sewing need some further  
> discussion, as they seem almost impossible to distinguish from the  wiki 
> documentation.
>
>
Note that maybe they are effectively duplicates with the same meaning in 
practice
And in such cases OSM Wiki should not pretend that there is some systematic 
difference.
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a hole in the ground

[Alan Mackie]

The wiki page for natural=sinkhole [1] suggests that it can be used with
anthropogenic=yes as supplementary tag.

That's assuming that this was covered and collapsed, but even without that
history this might be "close enough" to use as a tag.

I'd probably double tag as a sinkhole and hazard.

[1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dsinkhole

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, 11:13 Niels Elgaard Larsen,  wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 12:48:30 +0100
> Troels Arvin  wrote:
>
> >Hello,
>
>
> If it can be harmful then
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ahazard%3Dhole
>
>
> >When I was trekking south of Olympos in Tyrkey, I came across some
> >ruins which were not on OSM. Within the ruins there is a hole in the
> >ground, approximately 6 meters deep. I don't know what the hole has
> >been used for. Maybe it's a dried out well, or it has been used for
> >storage: http://troels.arvin.dk/osm/topics/hole_in_ground_in_tyrkey/
> >
> >I've tried to tag it in a meaningful way, first and foremost because
> >the hole is easy to overlook when walking around in the area, and it
> >would be rather harmful for anyone falling into it.
> >
> >However, my efforts don't result in anything showing up in
> >openstreetmap.org default map:
> >https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10287990615#map=18/36.36082/30.47644
> >
> >Have I tagged this in a good way? Or does someone have suggestions for
> >improving it?]
> >
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Nate Wessel]

shop=wool  ... this 
seems like almost exactly what I'm proposing. And is used much more 
frequently  than shop=yarn.


And yet for me, I never even thought to search for this. And the word 
'yarn' doesn't actually appear anywhere on the page or it would have 
shown up in my searches of the wiki.


It's also not referenced anywhere on the shop=sewing 
 page, which 
explicitly mentions knitting needles, etc. Nor on the shop=fabric 
 nor 
shop=haberdashery 
 pages.


It seems like maybe the real problem here is that the various tags 
related to the "fibre-arts" aren't all that well documented yet and not 
at all well cross-referenced. Would anyone object to an attempt to 
better cross-reference and distinguish these categories?


In particular it seems to me like shop=wool should encompass things like 
knitting needles, and specify that it would be selling (wool) yarn, and 
not wool fabric as that would fall under shop=fabric.


I would also want to drop references to yarn and knitting needles from 
shop=sewing, pointing to shop=wool for that.


It seems like shop=haberdashery and shop=sewing need some further 
discussion, as they seem almost impossible to distinguish from the wiki 
documentation. Personally, I always thought of a haberdashery as a hat 
shop?? I somehow hadn't even heard of that tag before this discussion.


Best,

Nate Wessel
Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd
NateWessel.com 

On 2023-01-03 07:51, Philip Barnes wrote:
Shops selling wool are commonly referred to as wool shops so why not 
shop=wool?


Yarn doesn't seem very intuitive to me as a native English speaker.

Phil (trigpoint)

On 2 January 2023 17:14:28 GMT, Nate Wessel  wrote:

Howdy y'all,

I am proposing to make official a tag that is already in use to
some degree, *shop=yarn*, for shops that primarily sell yarn and
other knitting/crochet supplies. Currently the wiki has these
falling under shop=sewing. As a long-time sewer who has recently
taken up knitting, I can say with confidence that these are very
different things; though sometimes larger stores will sell both.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/yarn_shops

Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.

Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd
NateWessel.com 


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Alan Mackie]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2023, 16:20 Nate Wessel,  wrote:

> I was at a store like that
>  just recently.
>
> In that case I would probably tend to separate with a semicolon
> `shop=yarn;sewing` or just pick the dominant type. There can be a bit of a
> blurry boundary there for sure, same as for `shop=sewing` and
> `shop=fabric`. In that case I usually try to decide whether it's mostly
> fabric or other stuff like sewing machines and just pick one.
>
> The problem with `sewing=yarn` IMO is that sewing and knitting aren't
> really all that closely related. You can be an expert at one without
> knowing the first thing about the other. None of the equipment or materials
> are the same.
>
> I think there's a bigger discussion to be had about how to tag "craft
> stores" and "art supply stores", and the things they sell, and maybe
> everything here is a subclass of whatever that category is most properly
> called. But I fear that may be a can of worms that will have us attempting
> to define "art".
>
I think one of the issues here is that in OSM we use the craft key for
trades so there's no obvious catch all category left for activities you'd
expect to be part time or pastimes.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Philip Barnes]

Shops selling wool are commonly referred to as wool shops so why not shop=wool?

Yarn doesn't seem very intuitive to me as a native English speaker.

Phil (trigpoint)

On 2 January 2023 17:14:28 GMT, Nate Wessel  wrote:
>Howdy y'all,
>
>I am proposing to make official a tag that is already in use to some degree, 
>*shop=yarn*, for shops that primarily sell yarn and other knitting/crochet 
>supplies. Currently the wiki has these falling under shop=sewing. As a 
>long-time sewer who has recently taken up knitting, I can say with confidence 
>that these are very different things; though sometimes larger stores will sell 
>both.
>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/yarn_shops
>
>Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Nate Wessel
>Cartographer, Planner, Transport Nerd
>NateWessel.com 
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Re: [Tagging] Private ambulance / patient transport service

[Philip Barnes]

That would be very misleading, these are not the normal public ambulance 
service crewed by paramedics who you contact in an emergency.

There is one locally who provide patient transport between hospitals for the 
NHS. I would go with a commercial landuse and company=patient_transport and a 
name. 

Phil (trigpoint)

On 3 January 2023 11:23:07 GMT, Anne- Karoline Distel  
wrote:
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Re: [Tagging] Private ambulance / patient transport service

[Anne- Karoline Distel]

 
 Maybe it would be more like an amenity=ambulance_station?--Sent from my Android phone with WEB.DE Mail. Please excuse my brevity.On 03/01/2023, 07:10 Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

  
   
Tried asking about this on the Community but no response so I'll bring it out here.
   
   

   


 In the process of clearing Notes & found one referring to this business: https://moretongroup.com/ It’s a private business that does first aid training, but also provides ambulances to attend sporting events, does patient transport between hospitals or hospital > home, & even takes doctor’s around acting as mobile clinics! 
 What to tag them as? 
 Talk:Tag:emergency=ambulance station - OpenStreetMap Wiki says it is for emergency vehicles only, NOT patient transport? 
 I wouldn’t call it a medical centre, as by their description, they don’t have doctor’s there, they only transport them. 
 Thoughts?
 
   
   

 
  
   

 Thanks
 
  
 
 
  Graeme
 

   
  
 

   
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - yarn shops

[Warin]

On 3/1/23 10:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Am Mo., 2. Jan. 2023 um 18:17 Uhr schrieb Nate Wessel 
:


Howdy y'all,

I am proposing to make official a tag that is already in use to
some degree, *shop=yarn*, for shops that primarily sell yarn and
other knitting/crochet supplies. Currently the wiki has these
falling under shop=sewing. As a long-time sewer who has recently
taken up knitting, I can say with confidence that these are very
different things; though sometimes larger stores will sell both.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/yarn_shops

Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.



is it different from shop=haberdashery?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dhaberdashery



Very different.


Haberdashery'; is some times called 'notions'., buttons, zippers, buckles..

yarn: Knitting is making clothing/bedding from yarn.. so along with yarn 
you get knitting needles, knitting machines..


sewing; needles, thread, sewing machines ...

fabric: cloth used to make clothing, curtains, cover furniture ..


I regard these as different products... some stores do stock more than 
one of the above, some only have one and others do mostly one but have a 
little of another.



The problem of tagging the shop that sells more than one category has to 
be dealt with. A baker that also sells fruit and vegetables for instance?




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