Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On 2 August 2010 19:39, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: This has nothing to do with weather conditions, but a stupid driver ignoring signed warnings. Perhaps not the best example of what Liz was thinking of, however this is a better example: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dry_Weather_Road ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On 02/08/2010 10:46, John Smith wrote: On 2 August 2010 19:39, Dave F.dave...@madasafish.com wrote: This has nothing to do with weather conditions, but a stupid driver ignoring signed warnings. Perhaps not the best example of what Liz was thinking of, however this is a better example: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dry_Weather_Road I see - a permanent sign. I've no idea was this was objected to. Was the discussion on how it was to be tagged? Dave F. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On 2 August 2010 20:03, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: Road closed signs are not always put up, but the sign that the road will be closed by wet weather is there all year round. I don't think the report mentioned if there was signs saying the road would be closed during wet weather, but I guess that's the assumption if the council are thinking of fining them for damaging the road, combined with the sign on the wiki that says more or less the same thing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On 2 August 2010 20:05, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: I see - a permanent sign. I've no idea was this was objected to. Was the discussion on how it was to be tagged? I can't remember what happened, and there is nothing really useful on the discussion page at all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: If I wanted the list of colors to be controlled and finite I'd use a check constraint. By the way, if I were going to use a separate table for the list of colors, for instance for performance purposes, I'd still use the name of the color as the key, thus avoiding doing a join every single time you do a select. The lookup would only be necessary when doing adds, in order to check the foreign key constraint. The lookup table on color would have only one column, the color name. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
On 02/08/2010 17:28, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote: If I wanted the list of colors to be controlled and finite I'd use a check constraint. By the way, if I were going to use a separate table for the list of colors, for instance for performance purposes, I'd still use the name of the color as the key, thus avoiding doing a join every single time you do a select. The lookup would only be necessary when doing adds, in order to check the foreign key constraint. The lookup table on color would have only one column, the color name. Fair enough as an optimisation, if it didn't compromise functionality. Which language would you use for the key values? This discussion started about normalisation of different names (soccer, football, association_football etc) for the same thing (that game, whatever you call it). Whatever language you choose for the FK it will not suit everybody; applications will (should?) end up doing an additional select to translate that value to the appropriate locale anyway. You (en_US) prefer soccer, I (en_GB) would prefer football. Using a text value for the field is of course only one step away from using an integer... Constraints are all very well as a last resort way of ensuring only valid data gets stored where the criteria are set in stone. The problem I have with Constraints for this purpose is that the list of valid values has to be maintained in two places - once in the constraint definition, and once in the application code where it presents a list to the user during data entry. Using a foreign key for referential integrity allows a dynamic self-maintaining link between the allowed values and the user interface. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 02/08/2010 17:28, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote: If I wanted the list of colors to be controlled and finite I'd use a check constraint. By the way, if I were going to use a separate table for the list of colors, for instance for performance purposes, I'd still use the name of the color as the key, thus avoiding doing a join every single time you do a select. The lookup would only be necessary when doing adds, in order to check the foreign key constraint. The lookup table on color would have only one column, the color name. Fair enough as an optimisation, if it didn't compromise functionality. Which language would you use for the key values? This discussion started about normalisation of different names (soccer, football, association_football etc) for the same thing (that game, whatever you call it). Whatever language you choose for the FK it will not suit everybody; applications will (should?) end up doing an additional select to translate that value to the appropriate locale anyway. You (en_US) prefer soccer, I (en_GB) would prefer football. Using a text value for the field is of course only one step away from using an integer... I'd use English. Preferably US English, but as British English is the de facto standard I don't have a problem with that. In any event, I'd definitely avoid using ambiguous terms like football (unless the intent was to be ambiguous, e.g. a generic field which is used for all different sorts of football). I'd say soccer is fine, but if it's legitimately offensive I'm open to other suggestions. Wikipedia uses association football, and copying names from Wikipedia is another common OSM thing. Constraints are all very well as a last resort way of ensuring only valid data gets stored where the criteria are set in stone. The problem I have with Constraints for this purpose is that the list of valid values has to be maintained in two places - once in the constraint definition, and once in the application code where it presents a list to the user during data entry. Using a foreign key for referential integrity allows a dynamic self-maintaining link between the allowed values and the user interface. I wouldn't use constraints for this purpose. But then, this is not an instance of wanting the list to be controlled and finite. As for maintaining the list in two places, that isn't strictly necessary. The application can just get the list from the database when it starts up, and cache it for future use. If the list is dynamic, then the application has to get the list every time. In either case though, that really has nothing to do with the constraint. Unless you're suggesting that the constraint be put *only* in the application, and not in the db at all. In which case, that's all fine and dandy until you have a second application using the same database. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:56 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Well, in this particular case, the issue was regional preferences about whether to call a particular game football, association football, soccer, etc., and the reason for using a link to an associated table was so that multiple names could map to the same field value. Fine. But you can still use a natural key for that associated table. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 3 August 2010 05:51, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: We've seen recently how people responding to disasters have used OSM data on handheld devices - someone right now could quite possibly be using such a map to try and deal with, say, the floods in Pakistan. If that map is suddenly missing hospitals what are they to do? Similar hacks to what they did in Haiti I suspect, use what ever tags render, like camping sites, which are really refugee camps... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 3 August 2010 10:46, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Similar hacks to what they did in Haiti I suspect, use what ever tags render, like camping sites, which are really refugee camps... Haiti is the antithesis of OSM tagging. Sure, the initial few hours had tagging for the renderer, but the community got together fairly quickly with the CrisisMappers community to develop preset groups that were specifically designed for crisis response. Additionally, new renderers specific to the cause (rendering the crisis-specific tags) came up as there was demand. This is how it should be. I would use Haiti as an example of what to do, not what NOT to do. So you are effectively saying things can change quickly? I don't think I remember hearing about all the problems people seem to be complaining about, must have missed that thread. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:10 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 August 2010 20:05, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: I see - a permanent sign. I've no idea was this was objected to. Was the discussion on how it was to be tagged? I can't remember what happened, and there is nothing really useful on the discussion page at all. Looks like the usual tussle between mapping at some deep semantic level (can you use the road in the wet season? does it flood? does it become muddy? is it illegal to drive on it after rain?) vs mapping the concrete (is there a sign marking this road as a dry weather road?) In Australia, we have these signs, and they are regularly marked on maps. Therefore, I don't think we need permission from the rest of the OSM community to map dry_weather_road=yes (or better, dry_weather_road=signed perhaps). I did sort of like the idea of a more generic tag like seasonal_closure=yes, which gets interpreted as appropriate for the local area. In some places that means winter, in some places it means wet season, perhaps for the country in temperate Australia, it means any time after heavy rain. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Polite request for when replying.
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: I suspect the problem is partly that people who are only subscribed to talk@ are replying to the discussion, which is crossposted to talk@ and tagg...@. The tagging@ list then rejects their messages because they're not subscribed, causing a break in the threading. Yes. Simple solution: for anything except announcements, don't cross-post. If replying to a cross-post, pick one list. Cross-posting anything which will cause discussion invariably creates a mess. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tag groupings
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Daniel Tremblay tremb...@gmail.com wrote: I've suggested a shoulder=yes/no tag. Somebody came out with a complex structure (probably valid) for shoulders. Does it really have to be that complicated? I don't know. You, speclists, know better than me. What are the objective of the openstreetmap project? Identify everthing on earth? Or provide a complete free map of the world? Hi Daniel, thanks for your input. Creating a workable folksonomy with the right balance between expressiveness and simplicity is an incredibly difficult task. You may only be interested in shoulder/no shoulder, but OSM has to serve a lot of different needs. That's where the complexity comes from. Maybe I don't get it right... But don't kill the project with unfollowable and incomprehensive rules / tags. Right. But what you really mean is don't scare off newbies with too much complexity. We're aware of that, and that's why there are a number of efforts to produce simpler editors which hide some of these details. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On 3 August 2010 11:28, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:10 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I can't remember what happened, and there is nothing really useful on the discussion page at all. Looks like the usual tussle between mapping at some deep semantic level (can you use the road in the wet season? does it flood? does it become muddy? is it illegal to drive on it after rain?) vs mapping the concrete (is there a sign marking this road as a dry weather road?) If it's the discussion I'm remembering, I think the debate may have started with the tag 4wd_only, (something like that, may not be exact). Which had the same issues - people were debating the questions, while my point of view is that there's a big sign at the end of the road that has that on it. Then it spread. Stephen ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Road closed in wet weather
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: If it's the discussion I'm remembering, I think the debate may have started with the tag 4wd_only, (something like that, may not be exact). Which had the same issues - people were debating the questions, while my point of view is that there's a big sign at the end of the road that has that on it. Then it spread. Yep, so kind of a backwards variation of the cycleway dramas. For the Germans and Brits it's very easy: a cycleway has a sign, so there's never any doubt, but in other places, they don't, so there is. I feel like some incredibly wise person could come along and find a solution to all of these problems once and for all, but it's beyond me. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
