Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
In data lunedì 6 giugno 2011 15:13:42, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer ha scritto: Maybe there is an issue with the wording. Club seems to have a lot of meanings in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_(disambiguation) with the (IMHO) most important one beeing nightclub (apparently not what you are after). What about using association, and have subtags for the organisational form and targets (e.g. voluntary, paid membership, whatever). My english knowledge isn't very advanced but I think using club=* as a Key isn't a big problem about misunderstanding. What kind of problems could rise? club=night ? ok, possible, but as many other tags if the user doesn't look at documentation. But association isn't bad, I'll consider it even if I think that club is more straightforward. I care about the possibility of mapping this great family of POIs whatever tag we will choose :) I also tought about subtags by myself while writing the proposal. It's a matter of tagging philosophy and I still haven't a clear opinion. So I approve but you could help me to thinking about them. How should be the tags? As a side note: in Germany there are now some smoker's clubs (which before where pubs or restaurants or similar) as a result of a law that prohibits smoking in public venues, maybe you could add those? Sure! It's in! :) Obviously I have no idea about all the kind of clubs existing in the world and the Key nature of this proposal always permit to add new and specific Vaules. Another side note: you propose club=chess, but that might also be club=sport, sport=chess (really ;-) ) Eheh, in my opinion it's a game, beautiful, but it's a game. But eventually I haven't problems to change. I don't care very much about this fine tuning. Let's decide a standard and for me it's ok. Using club=sport + sport=chess or club=chess doesn't change very much to me :) I still have a smilar doubt about hiking. Is it a sport? I think that is more an outdoor activity since there aren't real rules, races, winners. That's skyrunning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyrunning A last side note: someone mentioned recently on the German ML that sport=xy should not be used to describe any kinds of sports but only places where you actually can exercise this sport. Personally I don't agree that this is a good definition, but it is what the wiki currently states as well: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sport I really don't understand this definition. So what should we do? create a new Key? sport_whatsoever=* Or create a new tag for each sport? club=soccer, club=tennis, club=rugby ...? A waste of tags.. Alessio ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire alarms
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 11:58 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: I wonder why many people try to force the approval of a tag by fast votes on the wiki. A tag gets approved by uses in the data and software handling it. I find it remarkable that after however many years of OSM's existence, statements like this are, sadly enough, kind of true. If the highest level of evolution of a software ecosystem is standards governed by a managed change process, then what we have here is the lowest: no standards, no organised processes, and the only definition of what tags are accepted is whatever random pieces of software happen to arbitrarily support them, in whatever way they judge fit. And, based on my analysis[1], the end result is pretty messy indeed. The situation described in this statement is not an aspirational goal. It's the current quagmire that we all face, and should be trying to find a way out of. Steve [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Alessio Zanol nar...@infinito.it wrote: Hello, Hello! this is my feature proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club Great, I wished something like this several times! I don't have strong opinions about the specifics of exactly which tags will be used, but I'd really like to have something along the lines you are proposing approved. I don't how typical clubs (or associations, whatever) are in other countries (or even in other parts of my own country...), but here in the part of Brazil where I live the type of a club is frequently a bit fuzzy. Many traditional, older clubs have been founded with a very clear type, like music, hunting, or some kind of sport. Nowadays, however, most of these clubs evolved into something that is effectively a mix of several club types, with departments for many different kinds of activities. A typical club in my city has a building used to hold social events (wedding ceremonies, birthday parties, balls (dancing), artistic performances...), and other places (oftentimes at a different address) used for sport activities or whatever. Maybe it is correct to say tat these clubs are, at heart, something along the lines of English Gentleman's clubs (just less pompous/elitist), with additional facilities for sports and leisure. I think your proposal is very usable as is, and I really can't suggest any improvements to deal with these little local details. Anyway, I thought it would be nice to talk about them -- maybe someone this can somehow help to improve the proposal. And thanks again for this proposal! It is very useful! LMB ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
In data martedì 7 giugno 2011 14:27:32, Leandro Motta Barros ha scritto: I don't how typical clubs (or associations, whatever) are in other countries (or even in other parts of my own country...), but here in the part of Brazil where I live the type of a club is frequently a bit fuzzy. Thank you for your feedback Leandro. I understand what you say and, in general, we know how is hard to concentrate the variety of the world in a key/value tag :) For this reason at the bottom of the club=* list I put a generic first-level tag: leisure=club I would like to discuss with the list about the possible usage of leisure=club. Should we set it as strongly suggested tag to use in every club mapped? Or do you think that club=* only is enough for most of uses? I have no doubt about this. I would prefer a first-level + subtag (if known) (see: leisure=club + club=*). But I would like to know what the community thinks about this. Alessio ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Alessio Zanol nar...@infinito.it wrote: In data martedì 7 giugno 2011 14:27:32, Leandro Motta Barros ha scritto: [...] Thank you for your feedback Leandro. I understand what you say and, in general, we know how is hard to concentrate the variety of the world in a key/value tag :) For this reason at the bottom of the club=* list I put a generic first-level tag: leisure=club I would like to discuss with the list about the possible usage of leisure=club. Should we set it as strongly suggested tag to use in every club mapped? Or do you think that club=* only is enough for most of uses? I have no doubt about this. I would prefer a first-level + subtag (if known) (see: leisure=club + club=*). But I would like to know what the community thinks about this. I really don't feel experienced enough to give sound advice about this, but here is a concrete case to think about: One club in my city has two places. The first one (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/92612662) is their building used mostly for social events. I tagged it as amenity=community_centre, which is not very good, but I think it was the best tag I had at the time. Retaggin it as leisure=club (and see note 1, below) would be perfect. The second place owned by this club (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/92715686) is tagged as leisure=sports_centre, which, I think, is very adequate. That place *is* a sports center (which, incidentally, is used almost exclusively by club members.) I could retag it as leisure=club club=sport sport=multi, but we would be losing a bit of useful information (namely, that that place is a sports center). (I could use leisure=club;sports_centre, but I am not a big fan of multiple values for a tag). That said, I am not advocating one approach or another. As I said before, I am not experienced enough to see the deeper implications of using one or another tagging scheme. Take this as food or though, and feel free to just ignore it :-) Just two other notes: 1) Would the building for social events be one of these generic clubs, without a specific club=*? Maybe we could add a tag like club=social, club=social_events. (Or something that sounds better in English...) 2) Now a suggestion that may actually be useful: I see you suggested a club=history tag, for clubs devoted to (local) history and traditions. I'd suggest using separate tags for club=history and club=tradition. Here in my state, there is an important chain of clubs that is devoted to preserve the regional traditions (music, dance, food, legends...) But calling a club like this club=history just doesn't feel right. History often clashes with the traditions, local legends and local heroes... they are different things, IMHO. OK, I talked too much for the day. I'll try to stay quiet now :-) Cheers, LMB ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:13:42 +0200, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: [..] What about using association, and have subtags for the organisational form and targets (e.g. voluntary, paid membership, whatever). Just my opinion, but association is longer to type and more error-prone. I can already imagine the whole spanish-speaking world mistyping it and ending up using associacion :) (source of the above statement: I found some highway=residencial ways in Italy :D) -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 02:50:18PM +0200, Alessio Zanol wrote: I am not sure how the suggestion would cover something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_and_Cambridge_Club or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen%27s_club most of which are no longer restricted to males, let alone gentlemen :-) Seriously, in the UK, I am going to my club would normally be understood to refer to some such institution, at least among some sections of the community. Perhaps also in the US, given Groucho Marx: I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 22:15 +0100, ael wrote: Seriously, in the UK, I am going to my club would normally be understood to refer to some such institution, at least among some sections of the community. In Australia, 'going to the club' means (generally) going to a licenced members-only venue, often associated with sports but generally not where sports are played. www.clubsvic.com.au and www.clubsnsw.com.au for example (second one requires some proprietary microsoft plugin to view fully). http://www.vikings.com.au/ is an example of a licenced club associated with a football team, but which also offers food service, gambling, drinking, and at various venues (the Vikings Club consists of 4 venues) they have other sports including bowls and tennis. A lot of the proposed club= values, already have tags that exist for their mapping for physical entities, but I also found a lot of the 'club' values apply more to a group of people than any particular venue, for example club=diy / fan / fishing / hiking / openstreetmap. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Club
On 8 June 2011 10:08, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: In Australia, 'going to the club' means (generally) going to a licenced members-only venue, often associated with sports but generally not where sports are played. www.clubsvic.com.au and www.clubsnsw.com.au for example (second one requires some proprietary microsoft plugin to view fully). I'm sure you're aware of this, but we added these sort of regional specific things to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Cultural_Features ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
