Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread SomeoneElse
Richard Fairhurst wrote: *ahem* It's "Llundain" in one of Britain's two official languages. Two? You could make a case for both Irish and Ulster-Scots as well, based on the Anglo-Irish Agreement: http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf :) ___ Tag

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread John Sturdy
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Andrew Errington wrote: > On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:48:37 John Sturdy wrote: > It's also not true that in a 'monolingual' country that there is only one name > for something. For example, London is 'London' to a British person, > but 'Londres' to a French person. T

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Andrew Errington wrote: > It's also not true that in a 'monolingual' country that there is only one > name for something. For example, London is 'London' to a British person *ahem* It's "Llundain" in one of Britain's two official languages. cheers Richard -- View this message in context:

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Peter Wendorff
Am 01.08.2012 22:56, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Peter Wendorff wrote: If you rise a flag for the consumers side and decrease the mapping useability with that, these mappers will go away - and afterwards most probably the data consumers will follow, because there's no (updated) data any m

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread Andrew Errington
On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:48:37 John Sturdy wrote: > > [1] > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Names_localization > > +1, generally; but I'm not keen on deprecating the bare "name=*" tag, > because for many (perhaps most) named features, there is only one > name. For example, a m

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
Peter Wendorff wrote: > If you rise a flag for the consumers side and decrease the mapping > useability with that, these mappers will go away - and afterwards most > probably the data consumers will follow, because there's no (updated) > data any more in a reasonable quality and quantity. I did no

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
Hello Chris, please, do not put words into my mouth. I did not call you or any other OSM contributor a monkey. And I did not call any consumer "super important". If you think, I did, I kindly ask you to read my email again and more carefully. Chris Hill wrote: > most people who make grand stateme

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Peter Wendorff
Am 01.08.2012 21:02, schrieb Mike N: On 8/1/2012 2:51 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote: Bing I think provided the imagery, but I don't think we really got much mappers through bing. Apart from the news we got due to that in the press, I don't even believe many bing users REALIZE that they use an open pr

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Mike N
On 8/1/2012 2:51 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote: Bing I think provided the imagery, but I don't think we really got much mappers through bing. Apart from the news we got due to that in the press, I don't even believe many bing users REALIZE that they use an open project where they could contribute.

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Peter Wendorff
Am 01.08.2012 19:41, schrieb "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]": Frederik Ramm wrote: Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundamental

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Richard Mann
Chill guys. Refs and street names on ways are OK in most countries. So leave well alone. Data consumers can and do cope. If you're one of the few places that use multiple refs on a single street, then code them by local agreement - probably using relations. Yes, relation support should improve.

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Chris Hill
On 01/08/12 18:41, "Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundamentally d

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Paul Johnson wrote: > So fix the other editors. Potlatch is notoriously painful when it > comes to relations, and it really shouldn't be. Sigh. Are you going to quantify that and offer some suggestions (or, hey, some code), or just throw around unsubstantiated assertions? Richard -- View t

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
Frederik Ramm wrote: > Tools must serve mappers. Everything in OSM must be geared towards > making contribution easy for mappers. Anything else is secondary; > consumers are totally unimportant. I think, this is the point on which we fundamentally disagree. Consumers and data usability is importa

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Paul Johnson
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > Obviously you haven't used it enough otherwise you would know better. > It had so many bugs over time the list of broken relations is endless. > Read the archives and you will see. > It has been improved over the years but still far fr

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Apollinaris Schoell
On Aug 1, 2012, at 7:01 AM, Simone Saviolo wrote: > > I use mostly JOSM which has good relation support. But still it's a pain and > a challenge. Just downloading a huge relation takes too much time. No editor > can fix this because it's the nature of the data model. > > What's painful and ch

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi, On 08/01/2012 04:01 PM, Simone Saviolo wrote: What would consumers' assumptions be, reasonably? I think that we are talking too much about consumers here. OpenStreetMap mappers are *already* providing a tremendous value to many "consumers" around the world, no matter how limited and chao

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Peter Wendorff
Am 01.08.2012 17:24, schrieb Simone Saviolo: 2012/8/1 Peter Wendorff > Am 01.08.2012 16:01, schrieb Simone Saviolo: Do you know how many editors are out there? and there are bots all kinds of scripts with API upload support ... Feel free to fix

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread Johan Jönsson
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] writes: > > Johan Jönsson wrote: > > > By the way, is it only meant as an internal OSM-thing or is it supposed to > > also be a mapping of official languages in the place (or official languages > > expected on road signs)? > > Could you provide an example, where those

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: > I apologize if my words sounded harsh or offending. I admit that I'm > not regular user of Potlach, so my knowledge of it is kind of limited. I can tell... you can't even spell it. ;) (Sorry, cheap shot. But it's PotlaTch.) > 1) Pointless members of relations, e.

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
Johan Jönsson wrote: > lang= is supposed to tell what languages that are used in the > tag name= > > May I propose to use lang:name= instead of lang= > (or is it name:lang=) I don't like name:lang simply because it conflicts with the established scheme for tagging names in different languages, e

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread Johan Jönsson
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] writes: > > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Names_localization > OK, so if I understand this right lang= is supposed to tell what languages that are used in the tag name= May I propose to use lang:name= instead of lang= (or is it name:lang=)

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread SomeoneElse
"Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" wrote: On the other side of the spectrum is Potlach, which makes anything involving relations overly complicated. I've fixed my share of relation bugs, that I dare to say came from these poor editing capabilities. I've resurrected about half a dozen relations since t

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: >> On the other side of the spectrum is Potlach, which >> makes anything involving relations overly >> complicated. I've fixed my share of relation bugs, that I dare to say >> came from these poor editing capabilities. > > Wow. When was th

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Simone Saviolo
2012/8/1 Peter Wendorff > Am 01.08.2012 16:01, schrieb Simone Saviolo: > > > Do you know how many editors are out there? and there are bots all kinds > of scripts with API upload support ... Feel free to fix all of them. As far > as I know not a single editor for mobile applications has any rela

Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover

2012-08-01 Thread Martin Vonwald
Am 01.08.2012 um 17:09 schrieb John Sturdy : > I think it's a good idea to fix this, but it may have gone too far to > be fixable. Oh come on! Be a little bit optimistic! ;-) >> I started an overview on my user page of the current usage of >> landuse/natural and how it might look if we use landco

Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover

2012-08-01 Thread John Sturdy
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote: > That's the main reason why landuse (and also natural) needs some heavy > cleanup which of course would deprecate some tags and for sure take > some time. But I don't see any other way. I think it's a good idea to fix this, but it may have g

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Peter Wendorff
Am 01.08.2012 16:01, schrieb Simone Saviolo: 2012/7/31 Apollinaris Schöll > Instead of saying "don't impose your views on others", you should provide an argument why the proposal is bad and ideally, propose alternative solution to the presented

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: > On the other side of the spectrum is Potlach, which > makes anything involving relations overly > complicated. I've fixed my share of relation bugs, that I dare to say > came from these poor editing capabilities. Wow. When was the last time you used Potlatch? 1873

Re: [Tagging] Data redundancy with "ref" tag on ways vs relations

2012-08-01 Thread Simone Saviolo
2012/7/31 Apollinaris Schöll > Instead of saying "don't impose your views on others", you should >> provide an argument why the proposal is bad and ideally, propose >> alternative solution to the presented problem. This way, I can react >> with counter-argument, or admit that the original propos

Re: [Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread John Sturdy
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Names_localization +1, generally; but I'm not keen on deprecating the bare "name=*" tag, because for many (perhaps most) named features, there is only one name. For example, a minor rural road in England will probably have a name (in Engl

[Tagging] RFC: Names localization

2012-08-01 Thread Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
Hello, I've summarized [1] the ideas that were recently discussed in talk@ regarding the names, their different language mutations, ... I would like to hear some comments, additional pros/cons I could not think of myself, etc. Although I was arguing for the "don't repeat yourself" solution, I ca