Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Fernando Trebien 
I agree with Martin. If I were implementing a map renderer, it would be far
easier to treat categorized things (such as school and restaurant) using
the same visual style and same icon, instead of specifying each possible
variation separately (I would need to know all possible values in that
category and the app would definitely miss any new values until I manage to
update it again). Same thing if I were implementing a POI menu in a
navigation app. Same if I were compiling a list of places to print down
(this way it easily transforms into a nice hierarchical index).

And I don't see why this tagging style would prevent anyone from searching
for a "Chinese restaurant": just search for amenity=restaurant +
cuisine=chinese instead of amenity=chinese_restaurant. Similarly for
language schools.

So my vote goes for either:
- amenity=school + (if not a regular school) training={driving, language,
music, cram, etc.} (<< should work with practically all major
applications); or
- amenity=education + education={kindergarten, school, college, university,
driving, language, music, cram, etc.}

And definitely against amenity=driving_school, amenity=language_school,
amenity=cram_school, amenity=business_school, amenity=computer_school,
amenity=photography_school, amenity=dance_school, etc.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
wrote:

>
> 2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser 
>
>> Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of
>> worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I
>> am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"
>>
>
>
> yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a
> language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving
> school.
>
>
> school546360
>> driving_school3851
>>
>
>
> these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as
> well.
>
>
>
>> preschool225
>>
>
>
> not a school IMHO ;-)
>
> ...
>
>
> And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing,
> art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least
> be good to document a list of values people can refer to.
>
>
> +1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot
> of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the
> groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is
> "school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of
> stuff.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser 

> Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of
> worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I
> am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"
>


yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a
language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving
school.


school546360
> driving_school3851
>


these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well.



> preschool225
>


not a school IMHO ;-)

...

And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing,
art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least
be good to document a list of values people can refer to.


+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot
of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the
groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is
"school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of
stuff.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread fly 
On 06.09.2013 15:07, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 06/set/2013 um 14:07 schrieb fly :
> 
>> * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not
>> possible with the mix under amenity
> 
> 
> if you'd Mix all kind of stuff under education it would be similar...

Maybe, but by far more less than adding 100 or more values to amenity
and they would have more in common. Our education system is quite
complex and you will find lots of special cases depending on the
countries but we are always talking about learning something.

Cheers
fly

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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Brad Neuhauser 
I think you misunderstood my transition to a second point (maybe "That
said" was not a clear enough pivot).  The list was showing what is "in the
wild" right now, and that things like
amenity=ski_school/dance_school/language_school/driving_school/riding_school/etc
are in use now, at least in a limited way.  I thought that's what you were
advocating for?  If not, please clarify.  Brad


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser 
>
>> Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of
>> worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I
>> am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"
>>
>
>
> yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a
> language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving
> school.
>
>
> school546360
>> driving_school3851
>>
>
>
> these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as
> well.
>
>
>
>> preschool225
>>
>
>
> not a school IMHO ;-)
>
> ...
>
>
> And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing,
> art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least
> be good to document a list of values people can refer to.
>
>
> +1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot
> of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the
> groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is
> "school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of
> stuff.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Brad Neuhauser 
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of
worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I
am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"

That said, what you're proposing (separate amenity tags for different types
of other schools) seems to be what's happening anyway, albeit slowly.
Here's the top amenity tags with a value including school (from
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=amenity#values, searching for
values with "school"):

school546360
driving_school3851
preschool225
dancing_school174
ski_school112
school;place_of_worship92
music_school65
language_school40
prep_school35
dance_school19
School18
school;kindergarten12
place_of_worship;school10
schoolyard10
couching_school8
pre_school8
riding_school8
boarding_school6
kindergarten;school6
nursery_school6
diving_school5
musical_school5
private_school5
professional_school5
sport_school5
art_school4
school (historic)4
tuition_school4

And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing,
art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least
be good to document a list of values people can refer to.

Also, fwiw, amenity=tutoring is used 15 times and amenity=tutor 9 times.

Brad


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:52 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
wrote:

>
> 2013/9/6 fly 
>
>> -1
>>
>> Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
>> subkeys ?
>>
>> I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
>> service or training.
>>
>
>
>
> What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not
> interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving
> schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost
> nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags
> neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery).
> This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not
> much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should
> be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer
> courses, but "training" is really too generic to give any reasonable
> results if standing alone.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


Am 06/set/2013 um 14:07 schrieb fly :

> * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not
> possible with the mix under amenity


if you'd Mix all kind of stuff under education it would be similar...

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread fly 
On 06.09.2013 13:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 2013/9/6 fly  >
> 
> -1
> 
> Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
> subkeys ?
> 
> I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
> service or training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not
> interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving
> schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have
> almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other
> tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop,
> shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but
> there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely
> different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g.
> for which language they offer courses, but "training" is really too
> generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone.

Major advantage is the structure. It is easy to have more many keys than
kind of stuff under only a handful major keys. Especially amenity=* is
still crowded.

* it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not
possible with the mix under amenity
* it makes it easier to document and design presets as we do not have to
create a structure there as we already have defined one with the major tag.

You are right that training is too generic but there is no difference in
search if you either search for "amenity=*" or "education=*".

cu

fly


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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2013/9/6 fly 

> -1
>
> Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
> subkeys ?
>
> I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
> service or training.
>



What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not
interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving
schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost
nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags
neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery).
This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not
much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should
be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer
courses, but "training" is really too generic to give any reasonable
results if standing alone.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread fly 
On 06.09.2013 09:58, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> I think Martin is right in asking to invent new tags for different
> types of schools. Makes it easier for the new mapper.
> Also, we already have amenity=driving_school.
> 
> +1 amenity=language_school

-1

Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
subkeys ?

I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
service or training.

cu

fly.


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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Pieren 
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:

> there was a conclusion after some discussion some time ago that
> amenity=school should only be used for general education schools (primary
> and secondary schools). This is also described in the wiki.


Well. It was discussed and decided within the German community.
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Dancing-school-td5264543.html

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien 

> Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate
> support by current renderers and applications and no need for new
> tags.
>


-1, you won't have immediate support for the feature, you just will see
_something_ on the map, you could also use shop=supermarket for the
language school and it would show up on the map ;-)



> While being "tagging for the application", it doesn't sounds so
> incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language
> barrier). Would it be wrong to combine "amenity=school" and
> "training=" or should "amenity=school" be restricted solely to primary
> and secondary schools?
>


there was a conclusion after some discussion some time ago that
amenity=school should only be used for general education schools (primary
and secondary schools). This is also described in the wiki.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] School and training

2013-09-06 Thread Janko Mihelić 
I think Martin is right in asking to invent new tags for different
types of schools. Makes it easier for the new mapper.
Also, we already have amenity=driving_school.

+1 amenity=language_school

2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien :
> Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate
> support by current renderers and applications and no need for new
> tags. While being "tagging for the application", it doesn't sounds so
> incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language
> barrier). Would it be wrong to combine "amenity=school" and
> "training=" or should "amenity=school" be restricted solely to primary
> and secondary schools?
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien 
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging
>>>
>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos).
>>>
>>> There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet:
>>> language schools and cram schools.
>>>
>>> I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training
>>>
>>> Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've
>>> suggested we use "training=tutoring", which is somehow more generic.
>>> What do you think?
>>
>>
>>
>> training=tutoring isn't very clear to me, could mean everything, I'd use a
>> more specific word. What about amenity=language_school?
>>
>> There is a (possible incomplete) list of educational features here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education_features
>>
>> and there is also a proposal amenity=education (if I recall right).
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>
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