Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation

2013-11-03 Thread Ole Nielsen

François

you'll need to be a bit patient. As long as the main mapnik map and the 
major editors don't support the new tag there won't be a quick switch to 
the new tag. The old sub_station tag (10 uses) will continue to 
exist for a very long time and renders should keep supporting it. At 
least the count for power=station seems to be decreasing now (somebody 
retagging?).


Ole

On 03/11/2013 00:14, François Lacombe wrote:

Hi,

As mentionned in the issue #230 on the main openstreetmap rendering
github, the number of occurences of power=sub_station increased during
the last 15 days.

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/230#issuecomment-27632715

The new value power=substation was introduced not long ago and is the
official value of power template for power substations on the wiki.

It would be great to stop using the old value (sub_station) for new
features, and edit the old ones (case by case, carefully) to suggest
people to support the new tagging scheme.

If you're knowledgable about power networks, you could add the
substation=* tag to indicate the usefulness of the substation.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Substation#Substation_values


Many thanks in advance.


*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com


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Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation

2013-11-03 Thread bredy
I think that problem is present because in Josm the value is not change? Is
it possible to change this?



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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
Dear all,

Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with
a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal
includes the following tags:

- shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events
at agreed upon odds.
- shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets.
- amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game.
- amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines.
- amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker,
lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade.
- leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead.
- shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery,
amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead.
- shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery,
amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead.

Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling
for the full proposal.

I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or
on the discussion page.

In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples
on the wiki-page.

With kind regards,
Matthijs

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[Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
Dear all,

In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following:

- Newspapers
- Magazines
- Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop)
- Stationary
- Post cards
- Bus tickets
- Concert tickets
- Lottery tickets
- Post stamps
- Tobacco
- Mobile phone credit
- Drinks and candy

The name of this type of shop varies across countries. In the
Netherlands and Italy, they are most often refered to as tobacco shop
(although tobacco is only a small fraction of what is being sold). In
Switzerland and Luxembourg, they are refered to as kiosk (although
they are not necessarily small buildings on the sidewalk). In Germany,
they seem to be referred to as lottery shops (although they offer much
more than just lottery tickets). However, the concept seems to be
quite similar in most of these countries.

Some examples (not necessarily under an open license):
Italian tabacchi:
http://www.investmilano.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tabacchi222.jpg
Dutch Primera cigarette shop:
http://wijkaanzee.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Primera-wijkaanzee.jpg
Swiss K-Kiosk: http://www.gaeupark.ch/upload/prj/images/kiosk1.jpg
English WHSmith:
http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/at-the-airport/shop-restaurant-images/WHSmith.ashx
German Lotto lottery shop:
http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg

Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they
referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell?

In any case, we have two options. We can either tag these shops as
they are refered to in the country itself (for example shop=tobacco in
the Netherlands and Italy, shop=lottery in Germany, shop=kiosk in
Switzerland and Luxembourg), or try to come up with a tag that allows
tagging the same type of shop in the same way across the globe. I
would prefer the second option.

Would shop=newsagent be understood for these kind of shops in most
coutries? I'm not sure whether Italian tabacchi also sell news papers,
for example.

Thanks in advance for any input.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Philip Barnes
In the UK the are called newsagents, and fit your description pretty
well.

W H Smith is slightly different, whilst it has news stands and small
shops in railway stations and in airports, it also has larger high
street shops that are principally book shops, although they will sell
newspapers and magazines.

Phil (trigpoint)


On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 13:00 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following:
 
 - Newspapers
 - Magazines
 - Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop)
 - Stationary
 - Post cards
 - Bus tickets
 - Concert tickets
 - Lottery tickets
 - Post stamps
 - Tobacco
 - Mobile phone credit
 - Drinks and candy
 
 The name of this type of shop varies across countries. In the
 Netherlands and Italy, they are most often refered to as tobacco shop
 (although tobacco is only a small fraction of what is being sold). In
 Switzerland and Luxembourg, they are refered to as kiosk (although
 they are not necessarily small buildings on the sidewalk). In Germany,
 they seem to be referred to as lottery shops (although they offer much
 more than just lottery tickets). However, the concept seems to be
 quite similar in most of these countries.
 
 Some examples (not necessarily under an open license):
 Italian tabacchi:
 http://www.investmilano.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tabacchi222.jpg
 Dutch Primera cigarette shop:
 http://wijkaanzee.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Primera-wijkaanzee.jpg
 Swiss K-Kiosk: http://www.gaeupark.ch/upload/prj/images/kiosk1.jpg
 English WHSmith:
 http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/at-the-airport/shop-restaurant-images/WHSmith.ashx
 German Lotto lottery shop:
 http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg
 
 Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they
 referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell?
 
 In any case, we have two options. We can either tag these shops as
 they are refered to in the country itself (for example shop=tobacco in
 the Netherlands and Italy, shop=lottery in Germany, shop=kiosk in
 Switzerland and Luxembourg), or try to come up with a tag that allows
 tagging the same type of shop in the same way across the globe. I
 would prefer the second option.
 
 Would shop=newsagent be understood for these kind of shops in most
 coutries? I'm not sure whether Italian tabacchi also sell news papers,
 for example.
 
 Thanks in advance for any input.
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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[Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread Gilbert Hangartner
Hi there,

I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or 
Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your 
comments and thoughts.

Nounours!



A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally 
on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A 
crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, 
even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an 
after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, 
even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up 
for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it 
as an after-school, even if it's not.
The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia 
and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known 
asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria).


It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are 
about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do 
not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there 
important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an 
important information. Some use-cases:
I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in 
the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact 
information based on geolocalisation is important.
Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving 
instructions
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Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation

2013-11-03 Thread François Lacombe
Hi Ole,

I actually sent this mail because the main mapnik map won't be updated
until the number of occurences of sub_station become low in tag-info.

I think that Bredy is right saying JOSM isn't updated too but they are
looking for icons to update presets.


Thus, people should move to substation and that's not bad to remind them to
do so.


Cheers.

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com


2013/11/3 Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl

 François

 you'll need to be a bit patient. As long as the main mapnik map and the
 major editors don't support the new tag there won't be a quick switch to
 the new tag. The old sub_station tag (10 uses) will continue to exist
 for a very long time and renders should keep supporting it. At least the
 count for power=station seems to be decreasing now (somebody retagging?).

 Ole


 On 03/11/2013 00:14, François Lacombe wrote:

 Hi,

 As mentionned in the issue #230 on the main openstreetmap rendering
 github, the number of occurences of power=sub_station increased during
 the last 15 days.

 https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-
 carto/issues/230#issuecomment-27632715

 The new value power=substation was introduced not long ago and is the
 official value of power template for power substations on the wiki.

 It would be great to stop using the old value (sub_station) for new
 features, and edit the old ones (case by case, carefully) to suggest
 people to support the new tagging scheme.

 If you're knowledgable about power networks, you could add the
 substation=* tag to indicate the usefulness of the substation.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Substation#Substation_values


 Many thanks in advance.


 *François Lacombe*


 francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
 http://www.infos-reseaux.com


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[Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp

2013-11-03 Thread Manuel Hohmann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dear all,

I propose the tag man_made=lamp for lamps, together with a number of
additional tags for lamp type, light source, power and so on. Central
motivations for this proposal are:

- - Lamps are clearly visible landmarks for orientation, mainly at night.
- - Mapping lamps gives a detailed image of the lighting situation.

The present tagging does not suffice for this:

- - highway=street_lamp does not apply to any other lamp type.
- - Tagging lamps as highway features is at least questionable.
- - There is no tag for other types of lamps.
- - There are no tags for lamp properties, such as light source and power.

You can find the full proposal for a unified lamp tagging here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lamp

This tagging has evolved from a thorough discussion in the German OSM
forum:

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=23041

In the forum it has also been suggested to start voting soon, since
mapping lamps is done most easily during the dark time of the year,
which is just starting (in the northern hemisphere, where most mappers
are located). Voting will therefore be opened soon, unless there are
further suggestions / improvement / discussions required.

Best,
Manuel
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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
Dear Gilbert,

Thank you for proposing this, I agree that there is a need for this
tag. I also agree that creches are clearly distinct from kindergarten,
so they should have different tags.

Are you aware of the earlier efforts to propose this? See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare and
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 .

Does the strong divide between creches and places for older children
also exist in other countries? To prevent confusion, maybe it would be
an idea to propose a tag for places for older children alongside with
the creche tag?

For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is
there a difference between creche and nursery?

-- Matthijs

On 3 November 2013 13:31, Gilbert Hangartner
kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi there,

 I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or
 Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your
 comments and thoughts.

 Nounours!



 A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day,
 normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor
 activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's
 not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A
 crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school
 or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to
 stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered
 kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not.
 The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and
 Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking
 countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly
 Austria).


 It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are
 about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do
 not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there
 important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an
 important information. Some use-cases:

 I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in
 the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting
 contact information based on geolocalisation is important.
 Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving
 instructions


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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread Philip Barnes
On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 13:56 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

 For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is
 there a difference between creche and nursery?
 
My understanding, as a native UK English speaker, is that a nursery is
somewhere that a child attends regularly, a pre-school type place. A
creche is somewhere that looks after young children for occasional
short-term periods, such as in a shopping centre or a university. Where
a child can be left whilst the parent does something else, such as
shopping or attends a lecture.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread Gilbert Hangartner
Dear Matthijs,

Thanks very much for pointing me to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0

I wasn't aware of this!!!

For the rest, I tried to make it clear in the proposal how to deal with other 
kinds of childcare ... but I will first try to merge with childcare2.0 and then 
see further ..

thanks!

Gilbert


Am 03.11.2013 um 14:56 schrieb Matthijs Melissen:

 Dear Gilbert,
 
 Thank you for proposing this, I agree that there is a need for this
 tag. I also agree that creches are clearly distinct from kindergarten,
 so they should have different tags.
 
 Are you aware of the earlier efforts to propose this? See
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare and
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 .
 
 Does the strong divide between creches and places for older children
 also exist in other countries? To prevent confusion, maybe it would be
 an idea to propose a tag for places for older children alongside with
 the creche tag?
 
 For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is
 there a difference between creche and nursery?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
 On 3 November 2013 13:31, Gilbert Hangartner
 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi there,
 
 I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or
 Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your
 comments and thoughts.
 
 Nounours!
 
 
 
 A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day,
 normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor
 activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's
 not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A
 crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school
 or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to
 stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered
 kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not.
 The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and
 Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking
 countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly
 Austria).
 
 
 It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are
 about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do
 not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there
 important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an
 important information. Some use-cases:
 
 I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in
 the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting
 contact information based on geolocalisation is important.
 Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving
 instructions
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?

2013-11-03 Thread fly
Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
 I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified
 based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city,
 etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road
 system is well maintained.
 
 In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and
 ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several
 objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to
 importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are
 definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller
 national roads. Here's what we ended up with:
 http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png

Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture.

Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually.

It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to
highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road.

As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just
do not use it.

On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics
get involved it gets even more tricky.

In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but
one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one
has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv.

Cheers
fly


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Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
On 3 November 2013 13:48, François Lacombe
francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote:
 I actually sent this mail because the main mapnik map won't be updated until
 the number of occurences of sub_station become low in tag-info.

This is exactly one of the problems I was addressing in the discussion
'How to overcome lack of consensus'.

Mapnik won't be updated until the usage has changed, and the usage
won't changed until Mapnik has been updated. Therefore, it is
effectively impossible to change tags. I see that as a major problem.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread fly
Am 03.11.2013 14:29, schrieb Philip Barnes:
 In the UK the are called newsagents, and fit your description pretty
 well.
 
 W H Smith is slightly different, whilst it has news stands and small
 shops in railway stations and in airports, it also has larger high
 street shops that are principally book shops, although they will sell
 newspapers and magazines.

Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks,
newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things.

That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups
them but should be tagged with an own tag.

cu
fly

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
On 3 November 2013 14:30, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks,
 newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things.

 That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups
 them but should be tagged with an own tag.

What about a shop like this?
http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg

They call themselves 'Lottoshop'. Would you call such a shop lottoshop
in everyday usage, or would you call it a newsagent or kiosk?

What is the difference between kiosks and newsagents in Germany? Could
you give a chain name for each of them, perhaps?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Philip Barnes
I have seen these in Germany, but the only lottery only places I have
come accross in the UK are kiosks in shopping centres.

I would tag that as shop=lottery.

Lottery is the correct english word, I always read lotto as a brand name
for particular lotteries.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 14:36 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
 On 3 November 2013 14:30, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks,
  newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things.
 
  That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups
  them but should be tagged with an own tag.
 
 What about a shop like this?
 http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg
 
 They call themselves 'Lottoshop'. Would you call such a shop lottoshop
 in everyday usage, or would you call it a newsagent or kiosk?
 
 What is the difference between kiosks and newsagents in Germany? Could
 you give a chain name for each of them, perhaps?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread André Pirard

  
  
On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner
  wrote :

Hi there,
  
  
  I wrote a proposal to correctly tag "Crèches" or
"Childcare-centres" or "Daycare-centrers" or
"Kindertagesstätte". Thank you in advance for your comments and
thoughts.

  
  amenity=creche


According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and
.../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is
"crèche", not "creche".
Why make spelling mistakes?

Cheers,


  

  André.

  


  


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Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation

2013-11-03 Thread fly
Am 03.11.2013 15:11, schrieb Matthijs Melissen:
 On 3 November 2013 13:48, François Lacombe
 francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote:
 I actually sent this mail because the main mapnik map won't be updated until
 the number of occurences of sub_station become low in tag-info.
 
 This is exactly one of the problems I was addressing in the discussion
 'How to overcome lack of consensus'.
 
 Mapnik won't be updated until the usage has changed, and the usage
 won't changed until Mapnik has been updated. Therefore, it is
 effectively impossible to change tags. I see that as a major problem.

What is the problem about supporting both tags for now ?

Why is carto not supporting accepted tags ?

The power proposal changes are a real success as they show that
discussion and voting can lead to something.

fly


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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl

 Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they
 referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell?



There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country
specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany
could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell
salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books
generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure,
but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g.
your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't
count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very
often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or
newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often
they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches,
etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks.

Lotto is a different issue, in Germany the common couple is a newspaper
agent offering wasting your money on lottery.

Given that already inside a certain country there are huge differences
between these kind of shops. I'd think it is almost impossible to do it
on an international level. E.g. some shop=tobacco are specialized in
tobacco and offer a huge selection of cigars, pipes and pipe tobacco,
cigarette rolling tobacco etc., while others not even offer rolling tobacco
but only a small selection of cigarettes and maybe one or two common cigar
types.

I won't deduct from the shop type what exactly is the offering, either we
had to make specific subtypes (e.g. tobacco bar, tobacco + newspapers, even
tobacco and pastry/bread) or express this with additional attributes in the
form of sell:tobacco=yes, sell:icecream=yes, lotto=yes (or sells for
grammatical reasons, but the sell:* form seems more common currently).

In conclusion to your original question I'd say that this is not one kind
of shop, but there are different kind of shops in different countries,
offering overlapping goods and services.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl

 What about a shop like this?
 http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg



IMHO this is a kind of newsstand or travel supplies shop, offering usually
candies, drinks, newspapers, magazines, tobacco and certain kinds of books,
and also lotto, but lotto isn't their main purpose (maybe I'm too
egocentric here, because I hardly ever play lotto).  In OSM I'd tag this
either newsagent or tobacco (adding a sell:tobacco in the case of
newsagent).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/3 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com

 Looking at the sweets below the desk and maybe some hidden beverages I
 would call it a kiosk.



yes, the typology of offered goods is that of a kind of kiosk in Germany,
but the structure clearly isn't a kiosk (maybe that's not a problem, simply
don't use building=kiosk and you're done? On the other hand, isn't kiosk
refering to a building type and not to a shop?).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread fly
Am 03.11.2013 16:34, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
 
 2013/11/3 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com
 mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com
 
 Looking at the sweets below the desk and maybe some hidden beverages I
 would call it a kiosk.
 
 
 
 yes, the typology of offered goods is that of a kind of kiosk in
 Germany, but the structure clearly isn't a kiosk (maybe that's not a
 problem, simply don't use building=kiosk and you're done? On the other
 hand, isn't kiosk refering to a building type and not to a shop?).

Thought we tag building=* and building:use=* but never heard that
shop=kiosk is connected to building.

Though you often find them in small separate buildings

Did you mean that a kisok does not offer any indoor place for customers
but is only a counter with (covered) shelfs outdoor ?

fly


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling

2013-11-03 Thread fly
Hey Matthijs and the all others

I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid
amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=*
should be used.

cheers fly

Am 03.11.2013 13:10, schrieb Matthijs Melissen:
 Dear all,
 
 Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with
 a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal
 includes the following tags:
 
 - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events
 at agreed upon odds.
 - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery 
 tickets.
 - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game.
 - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling 
 machines.
 - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker,
 lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade.
 - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead.
 - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery,
 amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead.
 - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery,
 amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead.
 
 Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling
 for the full proposal.
 
 I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or
 on the discussion page.
 
 In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples
 on the wiki-page.
 
 With kind regards,
 Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread Gilbert Hangartner
Hi André,

I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and 
the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii 
character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would 
obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of 
questions is treated in OSM?

nounours


Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard:

 On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote :
 Hi there,
 
 I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or 
 Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your 
 comments and thoughts.
 
 amenity=creche
 
 According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as 
 well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche.
 Why make spelling mistakes?
 
 Cheers,
 
 André.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread sabas88
2013/11/3 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com


 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl

 Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they
 referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell?



 There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country
 specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany
 could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell
 salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books
 generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure,
 but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g.
 your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't
 count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very
 often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or
 newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often
 they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches,
 etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks.

 Lotto is a different issue, in Germany the common couple is a newspaper
 agent offering wasting your money on lottery.

 Given that already inside a certain country there are huge differences
 between these kind of shops. I'd think it is almost impossible to do it
 on an international level. E.g. some shop=tobacco are specialized in
 tobacco and offer a huge selection of cigars, pipes and pipe tobacco,
 cigarette rolling tobacco etc., while others not even offer rolling tobacco
 but only a small selection of cigarettes and maybe one or two common cigar
 types.

 I won't deduct from the shop type what exactly is the offering, either we
 had to make specific subtypes (e.g. tobacco bar, tobacco + newspapers, even
 tobacco and pastry/bread) or express this with additional attributes in the
 form of sell:tobacco=yes, sell:icecream=yes, lotto=yes (or sells for
 grammatical reasons, but the sell:* form seems more common currently).

 In conclusion to your original question I'd say that this is not one kind
 of shop, but there are different kind of shops in different countries,
 offering overlapping goods and services.


I'm adding some things here..
We could use vending=* as for vending machines.

I'm mapping as kiosk when there's more items from the list,
shop=tobacco when it's a proper tabacchino or tabaccaio (outside has a
black and white sign with the reference code from the Italian Monopoli),
shop=newsagent when sells exclusively newspapers and magazines or it's a
standalone kiosk with mostly newspapers
for tickets I'd like something like office=tickets (so we'll catch also the
place vending tickets outside a museum).

In Italy through lotto (only the most recent machines) you could pay bills,
taxes and other services.


 cheers,
 Martin

 Bye,
Stefano


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Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?

2013-11-03 Thread Fernando Trebien
Hello fly,

Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a
hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within
Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details
of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only
interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when
we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping
style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by
we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the
graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably
the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity
(objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process)
and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in
the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in
queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder
(but already being addressed) and none related to living streets.

So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to
the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where
pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that
they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries,
secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local
streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These
concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many
definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates
on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for
the international community, we discovered that each country has its
own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other
countries.

Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept
of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those
who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There
are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to
share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is
simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these
places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian
traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow
down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted
driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing
an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand,
he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing
decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge.

On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
 I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified
 based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city,
 etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road
 system is well maintained.

 In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and
 ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several
 objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to
 importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are
 definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller
 national roads. Here's what we ended up with:
 http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png

 Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture.

 Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually.

 It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to
 highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road.

 As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just
 do not use it.

 On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics
 get involved it gets even more tricky.

 In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but
 one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one
 has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv.

 Cheers
 fly


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Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?

2013-11-03 Thread fly
Hi Fernando

Still think you should not change the meaning of a key but use an
new/own key or even only a subkey for the other existing values
considering living_street. Actually, I am in favour of deprecating
living_street as it is already used for too many different cases and
wrong in concept (at least for the original intention).

Comming back to highway=* we do not attribute who is maintaining the
road nor if it is a called and signed as national, state and municipal
roads but we use it to tell about the importance of the road within the
traffic network and about the number of motor_vehicles using the road.

cheers fly

Am 03.11.2013 18:35, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
 Hello fly,
 
 Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a
 hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within
 Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details
 of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only
 interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when
 we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping
 style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by
 we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the
 graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably
 the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity
 (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process)
 and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in
 the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in
 queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder
 (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets.
 
 So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to
 the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where
 pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that
 they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries,
 secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local
 streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These
 concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many
 definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates
 on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for
 the international community, we discovered that each country has its
 own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other
 countries.
 
 Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept
 of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those
 who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There
 are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to
 share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is
 simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these
 places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian
 traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow
 down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted
 driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing
 an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand,
 he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing
 decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge.
 
 On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
 I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified
 based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city,
 etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road
 system is well maintained.

 In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and
 ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several
 objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to
 importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are
 definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller
 national roads. Here's what we ended up with:
 http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png

 Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture.

 Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually.

 It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to
 highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road.

 As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just
 do not use it.

 On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics
 get involved it gets even more tricky.

 In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but
 one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one
 has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv.

 Cheers
 fly


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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread Fernando Trebien
In Brazil, kids up to 5 years old can stay at either a private facility
(creche) or a state-run facility (escola infantil). These are currently
being mapped as kindergartens here.

Preschool is a preparatory 1-year course offered by regular schools, so
these are not mapped as kindergartens here.

Linguistic note: kindergarten literally translates to jardim de infância
which is the former name of preschools in Brazil.


On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Gilbert Hangartner 
kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi André,

 I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list,
 and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a
 non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french
 speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some
 information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM?

 nounours


 Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard:

  On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote :

 Hi there,

  I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or
 Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your
 comments and thoughts.

  amenity=creche


 According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and
 .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is
 crèche, not creche.
 Why make spelling mistakes?

 Cheers,

   André.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling

2013-11-03 Thread Jonathan
Wow, a very well documented RFC! Thanks in advance for your time and 
effort on this.  Will read it and comment where appropriate.


http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 03/11/2013 12:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Dear all,

Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with
a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal
includes the following tags:

- shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events
at agreed upon odds.
- shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets.
- amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game.
- amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines.
- amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker,
lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade.
- leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead.
- shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery,
amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead.
- shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery,
amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead.

Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling
for the full proposal.

I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or
on the discussion page.

In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples
on the wiki-page.

With kind regards,
Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp

2013-11-03 Thread Frederik Ramm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

On 03.11.2013 14:52, Manuel Hohmann wrote:
 - There are no tags for lamp properties, such as light source and
 power.

lamp_type has 20,000 uses and lamp_mount has 17,000; this proposal
tries to replace them both?

 You can find the full proposal for a unified lamp tagging here:

Frankly, this sounds like typical astronaut tagging. A group of people
got together and thought: Now what could we *possibly* want to tag
about a lamp? and everything has been written down.

Next thing, a helpful soul will create a JOSM template that has
*every* *single* *one* of the 20 tags in that proposal, and gives
people the impression that they should really know the aperture angle
or else the tagging isn't good.

I recommend to shorten the proposal to two or three tags and let
people map a couple thousand lamps first, then see where the journey goes.

Therein lies the quality of a proposal - to capture the essential
bits, not to make endless lists of detailed stuff that could possibly
be mapped.

Creating a full blown feature catalog before the first lamp aperture
has ever been mapped hasn't been our style in the past.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp

2013-11-03 Thread Frederik Ramm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

On 03.11.2013 14:52, Manuel Hohmann wrote:
 In the forum it has also been suggested to start voting soon,
 since mapping lamps is done most easily during the dark time of the
 year,

There is no link. Anyone can map lamps whether or not the voting has
been started. Even if the proposal is rejected, people can still map
lamps.

Bye
Frederik

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
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Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?

2013-11-03 Thread Fernando Trebien
If we use a new key, no apps would support it, until the Brazilian
community grows enough to start building its own apps.

Indeed, as discussions progressed, we began associating importance
primarily with traffic intensity and less with city connectivity. But
again, we would have to measure traffic objectively to classify like
that, so we picked observable structural characteristics that
correlate with traffic intensity. Importance was also associated with
safety, where lacking infrastructure (such as hard shoulders)
implicitly represents the (lack of) importance assigned by the state.
This is reinforced by the fact that the state itself publishes a map
where roads are classified by several structural characteristics (most
of which are part of the decision flow now). The only published
alternative classifies by administration level - which, as I said, we
found almost completely useless.

How many vehicles do you assume for each type of road? And how do you
measure it?

Note: I've felt the need for quaternaries and then thought that
ideally we should simply change the idea of road hierarchy into a
numeric tag, like admin_level. But given the length of the current
tradition, it seemed absurd to propose this.

On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 4:12 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Hi Fernando

 Still think you should not change the meaning of a key but use an
 new/own key or even only a subkey for the other existing values
 considering living_street. Actually, I am in favour of deprecating
 living_street as it is already used for too many different cases and
 wrong in concept (at least for the original intention).

 Comming back to highway=* we do not attribute who is maintaining the
 road nor if it is a called and signed as national, state and municipal
 roads but we use it to tell about the importance of the road within the
 traffic network and about the number of motor_vehicles using the road.

 cheers fly

 Am 03.11.2013 18:35, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
 Hello fly,

 Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a
 hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within
 Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details
 of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only
 interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when
 we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping
 style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by
 we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the
 graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably
 the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity
 (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process)
 and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in
 the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in
 queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder
 (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets.

 So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to
 the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where
 pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that
 they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries,
 secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local
 streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These
 concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many
 definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates
 on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for
 the international community, we discovered that each country has its
 own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other
 countries.

 Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept
 of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those
 who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There
 are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to
 share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is
 simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these
 places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian
 traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow
 down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted
 driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing
 an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand,
 he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing
 decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge.

 On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien:
 I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified
 based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city,
 etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road

Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?

2013-11-03 Thread Fernando Trebien
+1 (similar to our discussion here in Brazil)

On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Jonathan bigfatfro...@gmail.com wrote:
 Sorry if I've not seen the old posts on this, the wiki pages are
 contradictory which is why I asked the question.

 In the UK we are defining Trunk or Primary based on some arbitrary
 definition not on anything that is of use to any user or renderer.

 What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to
 build on.  Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user
 nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all.  The tag we give it
 should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance,
 size and potential timings/traffic flow.  A Trunk road that is a dual
 carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that
 winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less!

 Jonathan

 http://bigfatfrog67.me


 On 03/11/2013 00:14, Tom Hughes wrote:

 On 02/11/13 18:47, Jonathan wrote:

 I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki
 suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the
 requirement for highway
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me

 would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway.  Further on in the
 wiki it says that any A road in the UK  signed with Green signs is a
 Trunk road.

 I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country
 lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they
 should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads.


 It's really very simple, and has been discussed here many, many times
 before and I'm sure there are multiple pages on the wiki covering it.

 First, forget the question of which roads are formally designated as trunk
 roads by the Department for Transport (which is not very many these days).

 Second, understand that there is something called the Primary Route
 Network defined by DfT which covers those A roads connecting specific major
 towns. Those are the A roads with the green signs, and are what we tag as
 highway=trunk. Other A roads are highway=primary.

 In many cases those will be major roads, often ex trunk roads, but in more
 rural areas like the highlands they might look more like a B road does in
 other parts of the country. That is irrelevant though.

 In the UK it is really only residential/unclassified/tertiary where you
 need to make a judgement call. Everything else has a well defined mapping:

   Motorways = highway=motorway
   Green Signed A Roads = highway=trunk
   White Signed A Roads = highway=primary
   B Roads = highway=secondary

 Hopefully that will explain everything ;-)

 Tom



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-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law)
The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law)

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
On 3 November 2013 15:31, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl
 What about a shop like this?
 http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg

 IMHO this is a kind of newsstand or travel supplies shop, offering usually
 candies, drinks, newspapers, magazines, tobacco and certain kinds of books,
 and also lotto, but lotto isn't their main purpose (maybe I'm too
 egocentric here, because I hardly ever play lotto).

In other words, we cannot simply follow how the shop calls itself,
because this shop does call itself a 'lotto shop'. I agree that the
lotto is not the main purpose of this shop.

 In OSM I'd tag this
 either newsagent or tobacco (adding a sell:tobacco in the case of
 newsagent).

So the situation seems to be similar to the Netherlands, where either
of these tags would also make sense.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop

2013-11-03 Thread Matthijs Melissen
On 3 November 2013 15:26, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl
 Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they
 referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell?

 There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country
 specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could
 also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt
 (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally.
 Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will
 also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your
 electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they
 might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say
 they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default,
 but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and
 will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these
 tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks.

Alright, so mapping Italian tobacco shops as shop=newsagent would not
make sense. On the other hand, in the Netherlands there are shops that
offer everything you might find in a German shop=tobacco (newspapers,
magazines, post stamps, lottery bills), except for the tobacco
products. So mapping these shops as shop=newsagent wouldn't make sense
either. So indeed it seems we will need two tags for very similar
shops. Also, we would need to find a way how to tag shops that sell
both tobacco and newspapers.

Also, I'm still not sure how shop=kiosk fits in this picture.

-- Matthijs

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp

2013-11-03 Thread Andy Townsend


On 03/11/13 13:52, Manuel Hohmann wrote:

You can find the full proposal for a unified lamp tagging here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lamp

This tagging has evolved from a thorough discussion in the German OSM
forum:

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=23041




I had a quick scan through those, but it's not immediately clear to me 
what problem you're trying to solve.  What nature of illuminated things 
are OSM mappers failing to capture in the absence of a lamp proposal?


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk? PITA?

2013-11-03 Thread Jonathan
I've just googled PITA and it would appear that it stands for Pain In 
The Ass.  The below quoted email I received to my personal email is not 
a snippet but the full and entire transcript I received this evening.


I can't stress strongly enough how insulted, and a little scared, I feel 
for this personal attack.


Is Chris Hill (user: chilly) trying to intimidate or bully me outside of 
the list?  Is he threatened by my questioning the Status Quo?  Was he 
upset that I didn't shut up after he proffered the first answer  to my 
question?


I thought these lists were aliases for discussion?  It would appear 
that if you ask a question that was raised 3 years before then that 
instantly make you a PITA?


I realise there are mappers like Chris who have many years/edits of 
seniority over us newer mappers but that gives them no right to abuse 
anybody, if anything it confers a responsibility to help newer mappers.  
That help shouldn't come in the form of I say it is so accept it, if 
they can't justify their opinion with a reasoned argument then don't 
give the opinion!


Abusing the  questioner is unacceptable. Either within the list or without.

I was on the fringes of the organising committee for SOTM2013 and the 
subject of an anti-bullying policy was raised, suggesting it should be 
documented and published.  I was against it because I felt it was just 
common human courtesy to treat everyone with respect and kindness.  
Maybe I was wrong, maybe it should be documented so that people like 
Chris Hill (chilly) can be officially sanctioned, given warnings over 
their conduct, and in the extreme, have their account blocked.


I'd like to state that I shall withdraw all involvement in the the 
Trunk/Primary debate and will think twice about any future questions to 
these lists.


If anybody wants to see OSM flourish and bring in new participants from 
other walks of life and grow to be a well respected global organisation 
then think again, some may need to leave before others feel they may 
want to join.


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 03/11/2013 19:55, Chris Hill wrote:

Why are you being a PITA about this?




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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk? PITA?

2013-11-03 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 03.11.2013 21:51, Jonathan wrote:
 I've just googled PITA

Please keep replies to talk-uk where this thread originated.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling

2013-11-03 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 11:58 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid
 amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=*
 should be used.


+1

To spur the discussion on which key to use here are some numbers from
Taginfo for the value *=casino:

amenity=casino/Casino   1123
lesiure=casino   69
gambling=casino   60
shop=casino/Casino   25
tourism=casino/Casino = 11
amusement=casino   1
attraction=casino   1
entertainment=casino   1

amenity=casino is the most used tag by far, but I think that is because
amenity=* seems to be the default key for any undocumented object and not
because amenity=casino is the best tag to use.
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Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche

2013-11-03 Thread André Pirard
On 2013-11-03 17:07, Gilbert Hangartner wrote :
 Hi André,

 I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing
 list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that
 having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance …
 I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me
 to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM?

 nounours
Bonsoir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1xj_LQg-oI Nounours
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtVUOru8YM,

The bible speaks of that
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#General_information: Any
payload is in XML form, using the MIME type text/xml and UTF-8
character encoding, ... [hence the database...] but most of all this
page, very explicitly
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Characters. 
There was also a page whose discussion was very positive about UTF-8,
can't find it any more.

The choice of a key or value is not a matter of character set but of
understanding, English being the mostly used common language between
people talking different languages.

Contrary to what certain people claim, no more that a Chinese character
is typographically an assembly of little signs, è is not an accent on
an e. It used to be like that before 1985, when people used e
backspace accent with Wordstar on CP/M computers, but that's now
ancient history.  It should be noticed that the new 8859-1 code that
made è a single character is also (almost) the ANSI code (American
National Standards Institute).
All that has been swept away by a single worldwide code ISO 10646,
shortly said, aka UNICODE, aka UTF-8 that the world waited for decades. 
There is now no reason to use anything else.

No more than tagging for the renderer, UTF-8 must not be avoided
because of a few bugs here and there.  Just as the renderer must be
fixed, they say, so must the bugs.

Cordialement,

Papou.


 Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard:

 On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote :
 Hi there,

 I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres
 or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance
 for your comments and thoughts.

 amenity=creche

 According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and
 .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is
 crèche, not creche.
 Why make spelling mistakes?

 Cheers,

 André.


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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp

2013-11-03 Thread Manuel Hohmann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 lamp_type has 20,000 uses and lamp_mount has 17,000; this proposal 
 tries to replace them both?

Yes.

 Frankly, this sounds like typical astronaut tagging. A group of
 people got together and thought: Now what could we *possibly* want
 to tag about a lamp? and everything has been written down.

Basically that's the plan.

 Next thing, a helpful soul will create a JOSM template that has 
 *every* *single* *one* of the 20 tags in that proposal, and gives 
 people the impression that they should really know the aperture
 angle or else the tagging isn't good.

The first part is true, the second is wrong. It is written in the
proposal that these additional tags are optional and should be added
only if known. This will also be emphasized in the JOSM template.
Nobody is forced to enter any of this information. This is just the
same as with parking lots, highways and so on - also there the JOSM
templates contain lots of tags such as surface, width, maxheight,
maxspeed and a plethora of access tags. Yet it works.

 I recommend to shorten the proposal to two or three tags and let 
 people map a couple thousand lamps first, then see where the
 journey goes.

As you wrote above, we already have thousands of lamps with 2-3 tags.

 Therein lies the quality of a proposal - to capture the essential 
 bits, not to make endless lists of detailed stuff that could
 possibly be mapped.

Of course, essential and non-essential things should be distinguished,
I don't doubt that. I'll try to make this distinction more apparent in
the proposal, which goes beyond the essential (and yet done) there is
a lamp tagging.

 Creating a full blown feature catalog before the first lamp
 aperture has ever been mapped hasn't been our style in the past.

Indeed it has been the past style that everybody starts mapping
something and invents new tags, and when there is a number of
conflicting taggings, it needs to be cleaned up. This is exactly the
reason why I suggest tags for these things, before everybody comes up
with their own tags and we get the same mess again.

 There is no link. Anyone can map lamps whether or not the voting
 has been started. Even if the proposal is rejected, people can
 still map lamps.

If there is no agreed way to map something, people will either invent
their own tagging or not map something at all. Of course I could just
start mapping lamps, powers, colours and apertures right away, but if
nobody else agrees with this, it does not make much sense.

 I had a quick scan through those, but it's not immediately clear
 to me what problem you're trying to solve.  What nature of
 illuminated things are OSM mappers failing to capture in the
 absence of a lamp proposal?

Have a look at the examples / pictures in the proposal which are not
street lamps.

Manuel
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