Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
2013/11/14 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
2013/11/14 Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com
For the access tags (and we do discuss access tags here), it is common
practice to have country-specific defaults on certain highway types as
listed in the wiki [1] and only tag what contradicts those defaults.
I'm not sure any of the current routers uses these country specific
defaults. My guess is that normal roads will always be allowed for
everybody except specified explicitly differently, and motorways and roads
with motorroad=yes will exclude certain slow vehicles. Cycleways will allow
cycling and footways walking and usually not cycling. If some country
specific defaults are different and nothing is tagged, it probably won't
work. Usually mappers do add default properties explicitly on roads and
ways, and the more mature a region is mapped, the more of those attributes
you'd usually find.
cheers,
Martin
I think many mappers are very happy with these country specific access
rules. This will prevent an overload of tags on roads. There is only one
router I know personnaly and that is the creator of the Openfietsmap
http://www.openfietsmap.nl/homeGarmin map. His map (lite version) is
also worldwide
http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/available.
He uses this country specific scheme.
Part of his script is here. I think it makes clear that trunk roads are not
accessabel for bicycles in some countries regardless of any bicycle=no
tag.
highway=trunk mkgmap:country ~
'(NLD|BEL|LUX|FRA|DEU|AUT|CHE|
DNK|HUN|ROU)' { set highway=motorway }
highway=trunk bicycle=no { set highway=motorway }
highway=trunk { set highway=primary }
Cheers
PeeWee32
http://www.openstreetmap.nl/.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
On Tuesday, November 12, 2013, Masi Master wrote: Hi all, I'm the co-author of this proposal. There are a difference about bicycle-forbidden and a compulsory cycleway. In Germany it is allowed to leave the cycleway for a leftturn, if you choose the normal leftturn-lane (which cars use). Or in Austria training with a racebike is allowed to don't look after compulsory cycleway. I.e. for the last case the router can give you an option to allow bicycle=use_cycleway-roads. Then you really want bicycle=destination and this whole use_cycleway crud is redundant if you've mapped the cycleway correctly. I see no compelling argument to change the world when access=destination already exists for exactly this situation. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
2013/11/15 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org Then you really want bicycle=destination and this whole use_cycleway crud is redundant if you've mapped the cycleway correctly. I see no compelling argument to change the world when access=destination already exists for exactly this situation. If you go back in this thread you'll see that destination is only one of several possibilities for making the cycleway not compulsory any more to the cyclist. I think there is a misconception regarding changing the world, this is nothing you'll have to tag or bother with if you live in an area without compulsory cycleways, so it really doesn't affect you at all. This is about tagging a certain property to a road (this road has a compulsory cycleway associated with it) in certain jurisdictions (e.g. NL, DE), where it does matter. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
On Friday, November 15, 2013, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: If you go back in this thread you'll see that destination is only one of several possibilities for making the cycleway not compulsory any more to the cyclist. I think there is a misconception regarding changing the world, this is nothing you'll have to tag or bother with if you live in an area without compulsory cycleways, so it really doesn't affect you at all. This is about tagging a certain property to a road (this road has a compulsory cycleway associated with it) in certain jurisdictions (e.g. NL, DE), where it does matter. I do live someplace where this is relevant, and I'm still not seeing how the difference between the proposal and bicycle=destination isn't so subtle as to render the distinction irrelevant. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
2013/11/15 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org I do live someplace where this is relevant, and I'm still not seeing how the difference between the proposal and bicycle=destination isn't so subtle as to render the distinction irrelevant. because of the insuitable conditions of the cycleway (e.g. ice and snow in the winter, quite frequent and a lot of time in the year) and because of bicycles too big for the cycleway. These aren't actually caught by destination. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] country specific scheme - was: Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
Am 15.11.2013, 16:45 Uhr, schrieb Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com:
2013/11/14 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
2013/11/14 Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com
For the access tags (and we do discuss access tags here), it is common
practice to have country-specific defaults on certain highway types as
listed in the wiki [1] and only tag what contradicts those defaults.
I'm not sure any of the current routers uses these country specific
defaults. My guess is that normal roads will always be allowed for
everybody except specified explicitly differently, and motorways and
roads
with motorroad=yes will exclude certain slow vehicles. Cycleways will
allow
cycling and footways walking and usually not cycling. If some country
specific defaults are different and nothing is tagged, it probably won't
work. Usually mappers do add default properties explicitly on roads
and
ways, and the more mature a region is mapped, the more of those
attributes
you'd usually find.
cheers,
Martin
I think many mappers are very happy with these country specific access
rules. This will prevent an overload of tags on roads. There is only one
router I know personnaly and that is the creator of the Openfietsmap
http://www.openfietsmap.nl/homeGarmin map. His map (lite version) is
also worldwide
http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/available.
He uses this country specific scheme.
Part of his script is here. I think it makes clear that trunk roads are
not
accessabel for bicycles in some countries regardless of any bicycle=no
tag.
highway=trunk mkgmap:country ~
'(NLD|BEL|LUX|FRA|DEU|AUT|CHE|
DNK|HUN|ROU)' { set highway=motorway }
highway=trunk bicycle=no { set highway=motorway }
highway=trunk { set highway=primary }
In Germany trunk generally is able to cycle.
In Germany we tag car-roads/fast-roads with motorroad=yes, this could
be trunk and primary (and perhaps secondary too?). This roads are
forbidden (implicit) for bicycles and foot.
Think the added 2 (and changed 4th) lines are better:
motorroad=yes mkgmap:country ~
'(DEU)' { set highway=motorway } //think for CH and AT the same
highway=trunk mkgmap:country ~
'(NLD|BEL|LUX|FRA|AUT|CHE|
DNK|HUN|ROU)' { set highway=motorway }
highway=trunk bicycle=no { set highway=motorway }
highway=trunk { set highway=primary }
--
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
Am 15.11.2013, 17:13 Uhr, schrieb Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: On Tuesday, November 12, 2013, Masi Master wrote: Hi all, I'm the co-author of this proposal. There are a difference about bicycle-forbidden and a compulsory cycleway. In Germany it is allowed to leave the cycleway for a leftturn, if you choose the normal leftturn-lane (which cars use). Or in Austria training with a racebike is allowed to don't look after compulsory cycleway. I.e. for the last case the router can give you an option to allow bicycle=use_cycleway-roads. Then you really want bicycle=destination and this whole use_cycleway crud is redundant if you've mapped the cycleway correctly. I see no compelling argument to change the world when access=destination already exists for exactly this situation. First, we call this value designated. Then we have also cycleways without compulsory, which have also a (different) sign. Belongs the bicycle=designated-tag only to them with compulsory? Why this tag is generally implicit in highway=cycleway? We have also cycleways without signs, which are non-compulsory. So there are no uniformly tagging for compulsory cycleways on the cycleway. I.e., if I hate cycleway and need a route without to use cycleways, how does it work with compulsory cycleways? Banning all cycleways don't work, because near a compulsory cycleways I ride illegally on the road. I have to ban all cycleways and all roads which have a compulsory cycleway (=bicycle=use_cycleway). -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
On Friday, November 15, 2013, Masi Master wrote: Am 15.11.2013, 17:13 Uhr, schrieb Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: On Tuesday, November 12, 2013, Masi Master wrote: Hi all, I'm the co-author of this proposal. There are a difference about bicycle-forbidden and a compulsory cycleway. In Germany it is allowed to leave the cycleway for a leftturn, if you choose the normal leftturn-lane (which cars use). Or in Austria training with a racebike is allowed to don't look after compulsory cycleway. I.e. for the last case the router can give you an option to allow bicycle=use_cycleway-roads. Then you really want bicycle=destination and this whole use_cycleway crud is redundant if you've mapped the cycleway correctly. I see no compelling argument to change the world when access=destination already exists for exactly this situation. First, we call this value designated. Then we have also cycleways without compulsory, which have also a (different) sign. Belongs the bicycle=designated-tag only to them with compulsory? Why this tag is generally implicit in highway=cycleway? We have also cycleways without signs, which are non-compulsory. So there are no uniformly tagging for compulsory cycleways on the cycleway. I.e., if I hate cycleway and need a route without to use cycleways, how does it work with compulsory cycleways? Banning all cycleways don't work, because near a compulsory cycleways I ride illegally on the road. I have to ban all cycleways and all roads which have a compulsory cycleway (=bicycle=use_cycleway). Sounds about right. If you have a cycleway next to a road that you can only use to access locations on it's frontage, or for odd turn situations, seems like the cycleway could be explicitly tagged bicycle=designated, and the road adjacent as bicycle=destination. This, and maybe some turn restriction relations to handle spots where cyclists need to switch to the other roadway to turn, should be ample to deal with all but the most bogus routers. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway
The proposed tag is also for odd vehicles. In NL and DE some bicycles with certain measurments may use the adjacent road. Not just for destination purposes. So I'm afraid a bicycle=destination will not work. 2013/11/16 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org On Friday, November 15, 2013, Masi Master wrote: Am 15.11.2013, 17:13 Uhr, schrieb Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: On Tuesday, November 12, 2013, Masi Master wrote: Hi all, I'm the co-author of this proposal. There are a difference about bicycle-forbidden and a compulsory cycleway. In Germany it is allowed to leave the cycleway for a leftturn, if you choose the normal leftturn-lane (which cars use). Or in Austria training with a racebike is allowed to don't look after compulsory cycleway. I.e. for the last case the router can give you an option to allow bicycle=use_cycleway-roads. Then you really want bicycle=destination and this whole use_cycleway crud is redundant if you've mapped the cycleway correctly. I see no compelling argument to change the world when access=destination already exists for exactly this situation. First, we call this value designated. Then we have also cycleways without compulsory, which have also a (different) sign. Belongs the bicycle=designated-tag only to them with compulsory? Why this tag is generally implicit in highway=cycleway? We have also cycleways without signs, which are non-compulsory. So there are no uniformly tagging for compulsory cycleways on the cycleway. I.e., if I hate cycleway and need a route without to use cycleways, how does it work with compulsory cycleways? Banning all cycleways don't work, because near a compulsory cycleways I ride illegally on the road. I have to ban all cycleways and all roads which have a compulsory cycleway (=bicycle=use_cycleway). Sounds about right. If you have a cycleway next to a road that you can only use to access locations on it's frontage, or for odd turn situations, seems like the cycleway could be explicitly tagged bicycle=designated, and the road adjacent as bicycle=destination. This, and maybe some turn restriction relations to handle spots where cyclists need to switch to the other roadway to turn, should be ample to deal with all but the most bogus routers. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Verbeter de wereld. Word mapper voor openstreetmaphttp://www.openstreetmap.nl/. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
