[Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
On the Dutch forumhttp://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=394396#p394396there is some discussion on how to tag a common situation. It is about a street that has no traffic sign on one end (side A) and a C6 sign http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C6.svgon the other end (side B) . Ofcoarse it is not allowed to enter this street by car from side B. If you enter the street by car from side A you are allowed to drive all the way. But you are even allowed to drive to (lets say) half way and then return. In other words... this is not a oneway street for motorcars. This makes the traffic sign a more or less imaginary oneway barrier. Let's for simplicity's sake asume the implication of the sign is motorcar=no, how should this be tagged? The direction of the OSM way is from A to B. The options that were mentioned on de forum were: 1 Cut the way where the sign is and use a relation type : restrictionhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction. 2 Add a node on the way where the sign is and add a motorcar:backward=no to this node. (similar to traffic_sign:forwardhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_sign#As_part_of_a_wayon a node that is part of a way) 3 Cut the way where the sign is into a tiny piece of way. Add a motorcar:backward =no to this tiny piece of way. Cheers PeeWee32 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
Hi! 2014-02-01 Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com: 3 Cut the way where the sign is into a tiny piece of way. Add a motorcar:backward =no to this tiny piece of way. That variant has been used in my area. The tiny piece is usually the part from the junction up to where the sign is located. Best regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
Am 01.02.2014 um 10:05 schrieb Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com: 1 Cut the way where the sign is and use a relation type : restriction. 2 Add a node on the way where the sign is and add a motorcar:backward=no to this node. (similar to traffic_sign:forward on a node that is part of a way) 3 Cut the way where the sign is into a tiny piece of way. Add a motorcar:backward =no to this tiny piece of way. 1 seems the best representation, 2 is not working because a node has no direction and for 3 I'd rather use oneway=yes instead of motorcar:backward=no. Cheers, Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
2014-02-01 Martin Koppenhöfer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 1 seems the best representation, But rather complicated I'm afraid 2 is not working because a node has no direction If a node is part of a way (which has a direction) a router should have enough information to conclude in which direction there is a motorcar=no. and for 3 I'd rather use oneway=yes instead of motorcar:backward=no. It is not a oneway street and if you want to make it one I'd rather use the oneway:motorcar=yes/-1 (depending on the direction of the way) Cheers PeeWee32 Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Verbeter de wereld. Word mapper voor Openstreetmaphttp://www.openstreetmap.org . ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Bag shop, pet shop
On 29 January 2014 13:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: regarding the bag shop it might also be useful to add a reference to shop=leather That's a good point. How would you distinguish between a bag shop and a leather shop? For example, how would you tag French 'maroquinerie's? See https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=maroquineriesource=lnmstbm=isch . -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
Am 01.02.2014, 10:05 Uhr, schrieb Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com: 1 Cut the way where the sign is and use a relation type : restrictionhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction. 2 Add a node on the way where the sign is and add a motorcar:backward=no to this node. (similar to traffic_sign:forwardhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_sign#As_part_of_a_wayon a node that is part of a way) 3 Cut the way where the sign is into a tiny piece of way. Add a motorcar:backward =no to this tiny piece of way. Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. Let's look how we tag maxspeed: From the sign to the next sign/intersection/crossing the whole way. So if you come from a residential-driveway or by a u-turn, you can't see the maxspeed limit and you can't drive conform to it. So should we tag the maxspeed also at a very short section? (Router and other software has to must expand the maxspeed to the next intersection.) I suggest it is better to add No. 3: motorcar:backward=no The sign is there by a reason, and motorcars should not go to this road/direction. So OSM-data can give a person/software a bit of more information to show that the road/direction is not allowed (even but from beginning). -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
On 2014-02-01 17:30, Masi Master wrote: Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. That depends on the country - different jurisdictions have different conventions. In the UK the sign's effect is often until further notice, i.e. until there is another sign telling you differently. It doesn't automatically get nullified at the first side road like it does in many countries. Colin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
On Sat, 1 Feb 2014, Masi Master wrote: Am 01.02.2014, 10:05 Uhr, schrieb Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com: 1 Cut the way where the sign is and use a relation type : restrictionhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction. 2 Add a node on the way where the sign is and add a motorcar:backward=no to this node. (similar to traffic_sign:forwardhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_sign#As_part_of_a_wayon a node that is part of a way) 3 Cut the way where the sign is into a tiny piece of way. Add a motorcar:backward =no to this tiny piece of way. Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. Let's look how we tag maxspeed: From the sign to the next sign/intersection/crossing the whole way. So if you come from a residential-driveway or by a u-turn, you can't see the maxspeed limit and you can't drive conform to it. So should we tag the maxspeed also at a very short section? (Router and other software has to must expand the maxspeed to the next intersection.) I suggest it is better to add No. 3: motorcar:backward=no The sign is there by a reason, and motorcars should not go to this road/direction. So OSM-data can give a person/software a bit of more information to show that the road/direction is not allowed (even but from beginning). Which is oneway but for some reason it wasnt't marked as such. If there's a true oneway street with proper signage, it's actually obvious from both ends (just consider the signs specific to oneway case) so you cannot miss it and u-turn. This non-oneway case is no different from =destination or a turn restriction in which only a particular route is forbidden, not the actual traffic on the road. Are there some real world examples where a maxspeed for opposing direction is really different? (Signage bugs don't count or short sections that occur due to sign placement). -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] TMC proposal - RFC
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi everybody, I would like to propose the following tagging scheme for Traffic Message Channel (TMC) locations. This data is used to locate the roads and places to which traffic messages apply. See here for a description of TMC and the available data: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TMC http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TMC/Location_Code_List http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_Message_Channel See here for an overview of the location code tables for a few countries: http://manuelhohmann.dyndns.org/osm/TMC.html The plan of the overall proposal is as follows: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:tmc This proposal is in fact a collection of several independent proposals. Each proposal should thus be treated separately. The first stage of the proposal can be found here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:tmc/TMC_Points Best, Manuel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJS7Vg8AAoJEPvf9RrsekSyCEcH+wTZtzjBSFowaYuy5AzYE5yG J1+O/Az/8cD3SPTELjxF2KhoronUP4RqD6/DOJtaXqpBXRlpf4b8Mfosda7XiSWn iL7MWHNknUPZdSQ79RiXIws8O4svu/HTUMCvxN4kSs0YlqVjeA/YJJJiSnUE3Jmh jkDLZ2m7YP6Oa4RYMj0p1I5a+N198nqkQFjmuOalOI6sCPPmv7feVcWrVvmtExOm /ZGY+vjj61dgvQCGPmkgcu19d5MacrzlX8Yj1bx1diybzaS9ld8UrSh7yvWV7oqa uIKYfosuza7w9q1VJ0ru0BiTGdGQaEyvyFbtBsN8LVNSL0murJX9JWta83+YzHY= =9XXJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
http://goo.gl/maps/H49dF on cycleway going down the hill. Note that it is possible count this entire traffic interchange as a giant traffic planning bug (especially cycleways). I encountered the same for cars, in Poland in mountainous areas very, very, very rarely there is a maxspeed for downhill direction without anything in the different direction. On Sat, 01 Feb 2014 08:53:06 -0800 Ilpo Järvinen lt;ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.figt; wrote Are there some real world examples where a maxspeed for opposing direction is really different? (Signage bugs don't count or short sections that occur due to sign placement). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
On 2014-02-01 10:05, Pee Wee wrote : On the Dutch forum http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=394396#p394396 there is some discussion on how to tag a common situation. It is about a street that has no traffic sign on one end (side A) and a C6 sign http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C6.svg on the other end (side B) . Ofcoarse it is not allowed to enter this street by car from side B. If you enter the street by car from side A you are allowed to drive all the way. But you are even allowed to drive to (lets say) half way and then return. In other words... this is not a oneway street for motorcars. This makes the traffic sign a more or less imaginary oneway barrier. Let's for simplicity's sake asume the implication of the sign is motorcar=no, how should this be tagged? In Belgium, sign C3 and similar means no entry in both directions http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#C3. C3 Sign C1 means one-way http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#C1. C1 The difference is that the driver facing C1 is told that he can drive round the block to enter the street while that there is no hope to do so in case of C3. This sounds very sound. I think it's a European rule and so, that, from a European perspective, it's a Road Administration error to place a C3 signal at only one end and hence that OSM shouldn't try to map signaling errors. From a pure logical point of view This signs tell you that you cannot enter this street, but that you may go round the block and that, if you're lucky enough, you may find no sign there. In that case, you may come back here through the other end and U-turn right behind this sign just as if it did not exist. Good luck. sounds kinda funny. But maybe only to me. On 2014-02-01 17:39, Colin Smale wrote : On 2014-02-01 17:30, Masi Master wrote: Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. That depends on the country - different jurisdictions have different conventions. In the UK the sign's effect is often until further notice, i.e. until there is another sign telling you differently. It doesn't automatically get nullified at the first side road like it does in many countries. Strange to me again because the reason why the signs *have to* be repeated is that drivers entering the road at that next crossing wouldn't know them otherwise. How do the UK drivers know? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
The 4th option is to use turn restrictions on the crossing where the 'virtual' sign is placed. Jo 2014-02-02 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-02-01 10:05, Pee Wee wrote : On the Dutch forumhttp://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=394396#p394396there is some discussion on how to tag a common situation. It is about a street that has no traffic sign on one end (side A) and a C6 signhttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C6.svgon the other end (side B) . Ofcoarse it is not allowed to enter this street by car from side B. If you enter the street by car from side A you are allowed to drive all the way. But you are even allowed to drive to (lets say) half way and then return. In other words... this is not a oneway street for motorcars. This makes the traffic sign a more or less imaginary oneway barrier. Let's for simplicity's sake asume the implication of the sign is motorcar=no, how should this be tagged? In Belgium, sign C3 and similar means no entry in both directionshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#C3 . [image: C3] Sign C1 means one-wayhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#C1 . [image: C1] The difference is that the driver facing C1 is told that he can drive round the block to enter the street while that there is no hope to do so in case of C3. This sounds very sound. I think it's a European rule and so, that, from a European perspective, it's a Road Administration error to place a C3 signal at only one end and hence that OSM shouldn't try to map signaling errors. From a pure logical point of view This signs tell you that you cannot enter this street, but that you may go round the block and that, if you're lucky enough, you may find no sign there. In that case, you may come back here through the other end and U-turn right behind this sign just as if it did not exist. Good luck. sounds kinda funny. But maybe only to me. On 2014-02-01 17:39, Colin Smale wrote : On 2014-02-01 17:30, Masi Master wrote: Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. That depends on the country - different jurisdictions have different conventions. In the UK the sign's effect is often until further notice, i.e. until there is another sign telling you differently. It doesn't automatically get nullified at the first side road like it does in many countries. Strange to me again because the reason why the signs *have to* be repeated is that drivers entering the road at that next crossing wouldn't know them otherwise. How do the UK drivers know? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier
On 2014-02-02 02:15, André Pirard wrote: On 2014-02-01 17:39, Colin Smale wrote : On 2014-02-01 17:30, Masi Master wrote: Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. That depends on the country - different jurisdictions have different conventions. In the UK the sign's effect is often until further notice, i.e. until there is another sign telling you differently. It doesn't automatically get nullified at the first side road like it does in many countries. Strange to me again because the reason why the signs HAVE TO be repeated is that drivers entering the road at that next crossing wouldn't know them otherwise. How do the UK drivers know? They have to use their memory. The legal basis is also often different. There is often (it depends on the sign/restriction) a Traffic Order which says something like the road from A to B is now 30mph maximum speed and prima facie you are committing an offence if you disobey the order whether there are signs or not. However you can defend yourself in court by saying the signs were absent, hidden, confusing etc. So the highway authority has to be reasonable about putting up signs, and it is your problem if you miss one. In NL at least the offence is created by the sign itself, so no sign = no offence. By the way, diving off-topic for a second, their memory is not tested as much as drivers on Dutch motorways. You may have to have a stack of up to 5 speed limits at any one time. Imagine encountering the following signs, in order: 1) start of motorway - class of road says it is 130 2) static sign says it is 120 3) static sign also says it is 100 between 0700 and 1900 4) temporary static sign says it is 90 (e.g. for roadworks) 5) overhead displays say temporary speed limit is 70 (e.g. for congestion ahead) 6) in the course of the traffic jam you see a temporary static sign at the end of the road works which says end of 90 limit (black circle, diagonal bar, grey 90 visible) 7) overhead displays say end of restriction (circle with diagonal bar) What is the speed limit after sign 6 (the time is 1859)? And after sign 7? And why is everybody suddenly overtaking you? There is a catch at point 7) - end of restriction on overhead displays now only cancel limits from overhead displays. So is the limit after sign 6) 100, or 130? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
