Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

[johnw]

a few months ago I laid out the case for landuse=civic It's literal definition 
is a little restrictive, but basically all government admin and services. from 
a brance office of the city hall to the UN building. local to supranational. 

There was so much back and forth over it - do we need a voting page now?

> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 20:02:
> > what about not-for-profit companies? NGOs etc.
> 
> landuse=organi[z|s]ational ? [oxford allows the 'z'-spelling for BrE, but 's' 
> as well]

Usually the government services are monopolistic - courts, police, elected 
officials (there's only 1 mayor) tax offices, DMV, etc, whereas NGO s and 
non-profits are a business model to support some activity. thehospital could be 
run by a church, an NGO, or by the city, but it's still a hospital. A clinic. a 
pet hospital. maybe we need an amenity=homeless shelter? I dunno. 


On Oct 4, 2014, at 3:31 AM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> Dan S wrote on 2014-10-03 19:21:
>>> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 15:32:
> 
 I see the introduction of a new, more specific key positive, e.g.
 landuse=public_administration
>>> 
>>> +1
>> 
>> I would have suggested landuse=civic. Looking at taginfo, I don't see
>> it in use, though there is a small number of landuse=civil already.
>> (Plus other stuff of course...)
> 
> Civic makes sense as well, however would that not limit the type of offices to
> municipal only, and exclude country government? My built-in Oxford defines:
> 
> civic: "of or relating to a city or town, esp. its administration; municipal"
>   "of or relating to the duties or activities of people in relation
>to their town, city, or local area"
> municipal: "of or relating to a city or town or its governing body"
> 
> 
> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 20:02:
> > what about not-for-profit companies? NGOs etc.
> 
> landuse=organi[z|s]ational ? [oxford allows the 'z'-spelling for BrE, but 's' 
> as well]
> 
> could subsume greenpeaces, red crosses, civil defence, doctors without 
> borders,
> political parties, and maybe even the disputed religious organisations, what 
> else?
> 
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Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

[Tom Pfeifer]

Dan S wrote on 2014-10-03 19:21:

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 15:32:



I see the introduction of a new, more specific key positive, e.g.
landuse=public_administration


+1


I would have suggested landuse=civic. Looking at taginfo, I don't see
it in use, though there is a small number of landuse=civil already.
(Plus other stuff of course...)


Civic makes sense as well, however would that not limit the type of offices to
municipal only, and exclude country government? My built-in Oxford defines:

civic: "of or relating to a city or town, esp. its administration; municipal"
   "of or relating to the duties or activities of people in relation
to their town, city, or local area"
municipal: "of or relating to a city or town or its governing body"


Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 20:02:
> what about not-for-profit companies? NGOs etc.

landuse=organi[z|s]ational ? [oxford allows the 'z'-spelling for BrE, but 's' 
as well]

could subsume greenpeaces, red crosses, civil defence, doctors without borders,
political parties, and maybe even the disputed religious organisations, what 
else?

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Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 03/ott/2014, alle ore 19:14, Tom Pfeifer  
> ha scritto:
> 
> Yes absolutely. Any commercial administration can keep the commercial landuse.


what about not-for-profit companies? NGOs etc.

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

[Dan S]

2014-10-03 18:14 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer :
> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 15:32:
>>
>> 2014-10-03 15:19 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer:
>>
>> I feel the need for a landuse tag for governmental / administrative
>> use,
>> maybe in the context of further civic use.
>>
>> We do have office=administrative and office=government but no
>> appropriate
>> tag for the land they stand on. Often such buildings are surrounded by
>> some land and often fenced off.
>>
>> not sure if office could also apply to the whole area (site) on which the
>> office building stands (similar to how this is done with other amenities).
>
>
> I'd prefer to keep the office= tag to the building, or different offices in
> a building.
>
>> Just to be sure: when writing about "administration" you are referring
>> only to the "public administration"?
>
>
> Yes absolutely. Any commercial administration can keep the commercial
> landuse.
>
>> Yes. I agree that the current practise of using "commercial" for all kinds
>> of offices seems a bit strange, at least from a German point of view. I am
>> not sure if the term "commercial landuse" is understood differently in
>> English speaking countries. E.g.
>> they do call their centres "commercial district" and "central business
>> district" while in other cultures there might be a less business related
>> term in use to articulate high density with mixed usage, but not focused on
>> business (because there are also
>> other features located typically, like theatres, museums and other culture
>> related facilities).
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_district
>>
>> I see the introduction of a new, more specific key positive, e.g.
>> landuse=public_administration
>
> +1

I would have suggested landuse=civic. Looking at taginfo, I don't see
it in use, though there is a small number of landuse=civil already.
(Plus other stuff of course...)

Dan

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Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

[Tom Pfeifer]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-10-03 15:32:

2014-10-03 15:19 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer:

I feel the need for a landuse tag for governmental / administrative use,
maybe in the context of further civic use.

We do have office=administrative and office=government but no appropriate
tag for the land they stand on. Often such buildings are surrounded by
some land and often fenced off.

not sure if office could also apply to the whole area (site) on which the 
office building stands (similar to how this is done with other amenities).


I'd prefer to keep the office= tag to the building, or different offices in a 
building.


Just to be sure: when writing about "administration" you are referring only to the 
"public administration"?


Yes absolutely. Any commercial administration can keep the commercial landuse.


Yes. I agree that the current practise of using "commercial" for all kinds of offices 
seems a bit strange, at least from a German point of view. I am not sure if the term 
"commercial landuse" is understood differently in English speaking countries. E.g.
they do call their centres "commercial district" and "central business 
district" while in other cultures there might be a less business related term in use to 
articulate high density with mixed usage, but not focused on business (because there are also
other features located typically, like theatres, museums and other culture 
related facilities).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_district

I see the introduction of a new, more specific key positive, e.g. 
landuse=public_administration


+1

Tom


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Re: [Tagging] governmental / administrative landuse are not commercial

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-10-03 15:19 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> I feel the need for a landuse tag for governmental / administrative use,
> maybe in the context of further civic use.
>


> We do have office=administrative and office=government but no appropriate
> tag for the land they stand on. Often such buildings are surrounded by
> some land and often fenced off.
>


not sure if office could also apply to the whole area (site) on which the
office building stands (similar to how this is done with other amenities).

Just to be sure: when writing about "administration" you are referring only
to the "public administration"?



>
> See an example here, an area with German immigration offices, currently
> tagged as landuse=commercial, but this is not a commercial activity:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/275145898
>
> Another complex of mostly ministry buildings. Only a few buildings
> near Leipziger Platz are really commercial:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/47161385
>
> For the Federal Chancellor's office, tagging landuse has simply been
> avoided since there was enough decorative grass around:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157390075
>


Yes. I agree that the current practise of using "commercial" for all kinds
of offices seems a bit strange, at least from a German point of view. I am
not sure if the term "commercial landuse" is understood differently in
English speaking countries. E.g. they do call their centres "commercial
district" and "central business district" while in other cultures there
might be a less business related term in use to articulate high density
with mixed usage, but not focused on business (because there are also other
features located typically, like theatres, museums and other culture
related facilities).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_district

I see the introduction of a new, more specific key positive, e.g.
landuse=public_administration

cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] governmental / administrative landuse are not commercial

[Tom Pfeifer]

I feel the need for a landuse tag for governmental / administrative use,
maybe in the context of further civic use.

We do have office=administrative and office=government but no appropriate
tag for the land they stand on. Often such buildings are surrounded by
some land and often fenced off.

See an example here, an area with German immigration offices, currently
tagged as landuse=commercial, but this is not a commercial activity:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/275145898

Another complex of mostly ministry buildings. Only a few buildings
near Leipziger Platz are really commercial:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/47161385

For the Federal Chancellor's office, tagging landuse has simply been
avoided since there was enough decorative grass around:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157390075

Tom

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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-10-03 13:26 GMT+02:00 SomeoneElse :

> If they're a German-specific thing then why not use the German word rather
> than co-opt an English one that doesn't actually match the primary function
> that these people perform?
>


they are all chimney sweeps. The list of detailed services, obligations and
functions is naturally country specific such as with any other tag as well.
We are not using English tags to describe everything in relation to
Britain, but because it seemed a good way to describe the whole world in a
way that would be understood by most of the mappers.

I'd also expect chimney sweeps to be operating (still) in Britain, as they
do necessary maintenance work (maybe you have less frequent sweeping, but
it still has to be done from time to time).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-10-03 13:15 GMT+02:00 Dan S :

> Please, no! "Chimney sweeping" is not a phrase in British English,
> whereas "chimney sweep" is. Plus, most of the craft=* tags use the
> professional (person):
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/craft#values
>


you are right, the most used tags are refering to the person, see this
top-list from taginfo:

carpenter 



shoemaker 



photographer 



electrician 



tailor 



plumber 



brewery 



metal_construction




gardener 



hvac 



painter 



sawmill 


actually I'd prefer to have either, but consistent. Either carpentry,
photography, shoemaking, electricity_installation, plumbing, ... or the
professions and hence master_brewer (or brewer), metalworker, sawyer,
pipelayer, ...

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[SomeoneElse]

On 03/10/2014 12:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2014-10-03 13:17 GMT+02:00 SomeoneElse >:


That doesn't much sound primarily like a chimney sweep at all, but
some official function to do with gas etc. certification.



exactly. This is what chimney sweeps in Germany are, an official 
function to control gas, burners, boilers, stoves etc. and to 
certificate them. Until 2 years ago you couldn't even choose someone, 
you had to take the one and only official company with the license for 
your area. (But they had to charge you the official price, no price 
flexibility possibile obviously).




If they're a German-specific thing then why not use the German word 
rather than co-opt an English one that doesn't actually match the 
primary function that these people perform?


Cheers,

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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-10-03 13:17 GMT+02:00 SomeoneElse :

> That doesn't much sound primarily like a chimney sweep at all, but some
> official function to do with gas etc. certification.
>


exactly. This is what chimney sweeps in Germany are, an official function
to control gas, burners, boilers, stoves etc. and to certificate them.
Until 2 years ago you couldn't even choose someone, you had to take the one
and only official company with the license for your area. (But they had to
charge you the official price, no price flexibility possibile obviously).
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[SomeoneElse]

On 03/10/2014 09:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I guess this depends on the region. In Germany they are sort of 
authority not only for cleaning but for chimney and combustion plant 
verification and certification of the installed instances. Typically 
you will have no choice, the whole country is divided into sweeping 
districts with one sweeper for each district (they've been monopolies 
by law until 2012), and you will have to have your stoves and chimneys 
and boilers and smoke tubes etc. controlled periodically by "your" 
sweeper...




That doesn't much sound primarily like a chimney sweep at all, but some 
official function to do with gas etc. certification.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Dan S]

2014-10-03 12:06 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
> 2014-10-03 12:58 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :
>>
>> I agree that craft=chimney_sweep is less ambiguous than =sweep
>> alone, and with currently 24 instances in taginfo it would be a
>> good time to change wiki and tags.
> +1

Yes, fine, I would say.

> what about "chimney_sweeping" to indicate the trade/craft (?) rather than
> the professional (person)?

Please, no! "Chimney sweeping" is not a phrase in British English,
whereas "chimney sweep" is. Plus, most of the craft=* tags use the
professional (person):
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/craft#values

Dan

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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-10-03 12:58 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> I agree that craft=chimney_sweep is less ambiguous than =sweep
> alone, and with currently 24 instances in taginfo it would be a
> good time to change wiki and tags.
>


+1
what about "chimney_sweeping" to indicate the trade/craft (?) rather than
the professional (person)?

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Tom Pfeifer]

Now as we have clarified that they still exist, we could come back
to the original question what would be the best tag.

I agree that craft=chimney_sweep is less ambiguous than =sweep
alone, and with currently 24 instances in taginfo it would be a
good time to change wiki and tags.

Andreas Goss wrote on 2014-10-03 09:11:

Tying to clean up the Wiki a bit and found craft=sweep. I think it would be 
better to tag it craft=chimney_sweep as this makes it clearer and a lot easier 
to understand for non-native speakers.

What do you think? I would then also like to retagg the few that are already in 
use if others agree and change it in the craft table.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dsweep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
__
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wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-10-03 10:41 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes :

> Apart from my first reaction, do they still exist? The last time I saw a
> chimney sweep was sometime before the moon landing.
>


>
> The other and more important to OSM is, do they have a physical
> presence? It is the type of trade that works from a van and is contacted
> by phone/maybe email, much like a window cleaner.
>


I guess this depends on the region. In Germany they are sort of authority
not only for cleaning but for chimney and combustion plant verification and
certification of the installed instances. Typically you will have no
choice, the whole country is divided into sweeping districts with one
sweeper for each district (they've been monopolies by law until 2012), and
you will have to have your stoves and chimneys and boilers and smoke tubes
etc. controlled periodically by "your" sweeper...


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Volker Schmidt]

I don't think they are extinct.
There are countries that require by regulation regular inspections of
chimneys. For example, they check  that  the hot exhaust gases from your
methane-fired central heating have non corroded the lining of your chimney,
which would be a fire hazard.
In Germany here is a federal law that regulates these businesses:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schornsteinfeger-Handwerksgesetz
They work from offices and come to your home in vans.

On 3 October 2014 10:41, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 09:11 +0200, Andreas Goss wrote:
> > Tying to clean up the Wiki a bit and found craft=sweep. I think it would
> > be better to tag it craft=chimney_sweep as this makes it clearer and a
> > lot easier to understand for non-native speakers.
> >
> > What do you think? I would then also like to retagg the few that are
> > already in use if others agree and change it in the craft table.
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dsweep
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
> > __
> > openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
> > wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
> >
> Apart from my first reaction, do they still exist? The last time I saw a
> chimney sweep was sometime before the moon landing.
>
> The other and more important to OSM is, do they have a physical
> presence? It is the type of trade that works from a van and is contacted
> by phone/maybe email, much like a window cleaner.
> As they are self-employed the registered office may be their home, but
> that is not necessarily in the area they work and it is not somewhere
> that will have a physical verifiable sign or be somewhere you would
> call.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Marc Gemis]

According to http://www.goudengids.be/schoorsteenvegers/ there are still
396 of them in Belgium.
I think it's even required to let the chimney of your house cleaned for
insurance purposes. Many people still use wood or pellets to (partially)
heat their house.

Several crafts men (carpenters, roof repair, etc.) have a sign in the
garden in front of their house, typically mentioning a phone number or
email address.
So one can verify this information on the ground in those cases.

regards

m

On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 09:11 +0200, Andreas Goss wrote:
> > Tying to clean up the Wiki a bit and found craft=sweep. I think it would
> > be better to tag it craft=chimney_sweep as this makes it clearer and a
> > lot easier to understand for non-native speakers.
> >
> > What do you think? I would then also like to retagg the few that are
> > already in use if others agree and change it in the craft table.
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dsweep
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
> > __
> > openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
> > wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
> >
> Apart from my first reaction, do they still exist? The last time I saw a
> chimney sweep was sometime before the moon landing.
>
> The other and more important to OSM is, do they have a physical
> presence? It is the type of trade that works from a van and is contacted
> by phone/maybe email, much like a window cleaner.
> As they are self-employed the registered office may be their home, but
> that is not necessarily in the area they work and it is not somewhere
> that will have a physical verifiable sign or be somewhere you would
> call.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 09:11 +0200, Andreas Goss wrote:
> Tying to clean up the Wiki a bit and found craft=sweep. I think it would 
> be better to tag it craft=chimney_sweep as this makes it clearer and a 
> lot easier to understand for non-native speakers.
> 
> What do you think? I would then also like to retagg the few that are 
> already in use if others agree and change it in the craft table.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dsweep
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
> __
> openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
> 
Apart from my first reaction, do they still exist? The last time I saw a
chimney sweep was sometime before the moon landing.

The other and more important to OSM is, do they have a physical
presence? It is the type of trade that works from a van and is contacted
by phone/maybe email, much like a window cleaner.
As they are self-employed the registered office may be their home, but
that is not necessarily in the area they work and it is not somewhere
that will have a physical verifiable sign or be somewhere you would
call.

Phil (trigpoint)




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[Tagging] Retag: craft=sweep => craft=chimney_sweep

[Andreas Goss]

Tying to clean up the Wiki a bit and found craft=sweep. I think it would 
be better to tag it craft=chimney_sweep as this makes it clearer and a 
lot easier to understand for non-native speakers.


What do you think? I would then also like to retagg the few that are 
already in use if others agree and change it in the craft table.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dsweep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


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