Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
Paul, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are malls, the third one would not be a mall. Volker On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm thinking this is a shopping mall http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg, and this is a shopping center http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg. Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical, meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182 instances). Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
Isn't shopping centre a collection of disparate stores grouped together for connivence (same parking lot), whereas a mall is a singular large (or several large) buildings full of little shops, primarily accessed by a pedestrian Thoroughfare in the center? To me the defining characteristic is pedestrian centric shopping or not. Both can be named places (separate from the shops), but only the mall is some place where you get out and enter the mall and walk around to see the shops, whereas the shopping centre presents it's choices (and access) from the street/parking lot - similar but bigger than a stripmall. The collection of two or three big box stores and a few smaller stores is in no way a mall - but it often is a named place. These dominate the arterial roads in California. http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=la%20mesa%20ca#map=16/32.7773/-117.0096 There is Grossmont Center, a large mall on the north side of the freeway. The large (outdoor, in this case) pedestrian concourse in the centre where you walk to visit the stores makes it a mall. On the south side of the freeway, there are 3 (formerly 5) bigbox stores just plopped next to the road, all sharing the same parking amenity and lessor ( 8800 Grossmont Blvd, as the street number itself is the sign). To the north of the mall between fletcher parkway and the train line, there is a collection of shops primarily accessed by cars. Named Grossmont Trolley Center. There is a smaller, yet still distinctly named collection of stores on the frontage road on the other side of Parkway Plaza (still further north), all the shops accessed by the parking lot - Grossmont Center North - which again is a single place - but a shopping centre (to me). I put a simple point tag on them so it is easy to find on OSM. These smaller, local Shopping Centres are in no way, shape or form a mall - but they are not just stores along a street. To me, that defines a Shopping centre. A LOT of these are untagged - Probably many times more than malls currently tagged. These are properly named collections of shops togehter that are not a mall - and shouldn't be labeled as a mall (which draw people from far away, vs the shopping centre which does not). I can name all of the malls in San Diego on one hand, but there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of these shopping centres just in San Deigo - and their names are known only to the locals of the area. It's easy to tag the malls, because most everyone of the 2-3 million people know of the 10 or so malls we have, but very few of those people know of these smaller shopping centres - so they remain untagged. Same goes for my local area in Japan, but there are MUCH less named shopping centres here than in San Diego. Maybe that is why there is such a big discrepancy in their tagging numbers - it might be a modern suburban thing that is not reflected well in the tagging that has been competed so far. Baybe I'm confused or unaware of other tags, but that is how I see the difference. On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical, meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182 instances). Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
The second is in no way, shape or form, a mall, in the modern usage of Mall' to define a shopping plaza destination. The word mall can also define a pedestrian walkway with shops, But the singular noun of Mall - meaning a large pedestrian centric shopping plaza - is very different than 5 shops sharing a parking lot. check the reply I was just writing. if there currently is no discerning Paul's example #1 and #2, then we need to change the mall tag ASAP. Because that is totally mislabeling the stripmall / shopping_centre in example #2 - and really diluting the meaning of mall as it is commonly used in California and Japan. javbw On Oct 21, 2014, at 4:00 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Paul, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are malls, the third one would not be a mall. Volker On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm thinking this is a shopping mall, and this is a shopping center. Not to be confused with a mall. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical, meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182 instances). Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
2014-10-21 2:04 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: +1 for leisure=scuba_diving_attraction or better yet, leisure=divespot and define the attraction or divespot further with subkeys I prefer leisure=divespot or dive_spot (?) or leisure=dive_site This could still be coupled with tourism=attraction for relevant cases to transport the attraction meaning. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies
2014-10-21 2:12 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I don't think there's much difference in reality as both sell paper, pens, ink and etc. However, the newer office supply places like Staples and Office Max are superstores that sell desks, computers, and other office furniture as well. When I think of stationary shops I think of smaller, more intimate spaces. +1, I'd also see it this way, a stationary won't sell office furniture or computers (would be more specialized in paper, card board, glue, pens, ...), while office supply stores would sell office furniture as well. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies
On 21/10/2014 05:24, Toby Murray wrote: ... I considered Staples to be different enough to deserve a different tag. I am not convinced that I am right... just stating at how I arrived at my tagging decision. ... that was pretty much my thought process with shop=office_supplies too. I'd be happy to reconsider, but it'd be nice to still have a way of telling the two apart by some form of sub-tag. OSM's big strength is people on the ground able to classify things that don't fit neatly into categories, and which may not make any sense to someone looking at the data from elsewhere. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)
We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload the data to osm. Cheers, Megha On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-19 7:10 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com: Thank you for the suggestion. These are the details that are already available to us and I think they can be huge help if made open which is the reason for me to suggest this tag. I have gone through your suggestions and will make the required edits. Use of existing tag can be a help. I will add the additional information you said will be relevant to the proposal page. There is no such community that keeps these data updated but we are the representatives of OSM in Nepal and we are trying to get data updated regularly in OSM and this is also a part of our project. As you are probably going to import data into OSM you should be aware that there are guidelines which you are required to follow, which contain besides other things the requirement of writing to the import mailing list and documenting everything in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)
2014-10-21 10:27 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com: We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload the data to osm. how did you collect the data, e.g. about landownership, the numbers of male and female workers, etc.? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] cleanup of the key natural
2014-10-20 19:13 GMT+02:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: Most known caves are dry. I know because I have been in thousands of them. being dry doesn't mean they are not water-related. beaches also often are dry. please don't take wikipedia as your one and only reference. I don't, but it is the easiest to quote. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)
We collected the data from field survey. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:39 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-21 10:27 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com: We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload the data to osm. how did you collect the data, e.g. about landownership, the numbers of male and female workers, etc.? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
The third is functionally an esplanade (far, far more people walk it than drive it), and it's official name is the Portland Mall. Originally it only had bus lanes on it, but Portland being too cheap to install bus traps and not exactly having the most rigorous enforcement decided to add a third lane about six years ago for through and left turning cars as well to prevent interfering with transit service. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Paul, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are malls, the third one would not be a mall. Volker On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm thinking this is a shopping mall http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg, and this is a shopping center http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg. Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical, meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182 instances). Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
I agree with Matthjis--I don't see much of a clearly defined and widely agreed on difference between the two. Given that, and the small usage of shopping_centre, I agree with should deprecate shopping_centre. Cheers, Brad On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: The third is functionally an esplanade (far, far more people walk it than drive it), and it's official name is the Portland Mall. Originally it only had bus lanes on it, but Portland being too cheap to install bus traps and not exactly having the most rigorous enforcement decided to add a third lane about six years ago for through and left turning cars as well to prevent interfering with transit service. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Paul, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are malls, the third one would not be a mall. Volker On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm thinking this is a shopping mall http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg, and this is a shopping center http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg. Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical, meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182 instances). Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - cycleway=soft_lane
Hallo, I would like to extend the voting period on my proposal, since it only has 9 votes at the moment. How much more time should I give it. 1 Week? 2 Weeks? Also, please leave your vote and/or comment on the discussion page if you like. Best regards Hubert From: Hubert [mailto:sg.fo...@gmx.de] Sent: Freitag, 12. September 2014 12:21 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - cycleway=soft_lane Hallo together. I would like to ask for any comments and opinions to this proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Soft_lane. Thank you for your time and Best Regards Hubert ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies
On Mon, 2014-10-20 at 23:24 -0500, Toby Murray wrote: I know I have used office_supply for Staples. When I looked it up in the wiki, the stationery page did not include the examples of the office superstores and my impression was that it was intended for smaller shops, including the Hallmark shops that John mentions. I considered Staples to be different enough to deserve a different tag. I am not convinced that I am right... just stating at how I arrived at my tagging decision. I would normally tag staples as office_supplies, but would be wary of changing those tagged as stationary without a survey. It is possible that they could have smaller stationary shops in places such as university campuses. Phil (trigpoint) Toby On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:37 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I haven't noticed one for several years, but there used to be stores that specialized in selling greeting cards and small ornamental gifts. Hallmark greeting cards had a retail chain. On October 20, 2014 7:34:19 PM CDT, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: When I think of a stationery shop, I think of something like a FedEx Office minus the copiers and shipping. When I think of an office supply store, I think of something like Office Depot, Office Max or Staples, which also sell office furniture, computers, adding machines, filing cabinets, etc. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Dear all, We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical, meaning: shop=stationery (8038 instances) and shop=office_supplies (177 instances). Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate shop=office_supplies in favour of shop=stationery? For example, Staples, a large multinational stationery/office supplies shop is tagged 380 times as shop=stationery and 48 times as shop=office_supplies. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging __ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies
On Mon, 2014-10-20 at 22:37 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote: I haven't noticed one for several years, but there used to be stores that specialized in selling greeting cards and small ornamental gifts. Hallmark greeting cards had a retail chain. There are lots of these around, I have not noticed them going anywhere. They are certainly not stationary, although tagging does vary. Most seem to fall under shop=gift, maybe with gift=cards. Shop=cards has 47 uses. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
On Oct 21, 2014, at 8:21 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. Pedestrian centric promenade surrounded by shops is a mall. car parking centric access, with shops adjacent to parking is a Shopping Centre. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Shopping centres almost never have any shared amenities at all. The shops themselves provide everything inside, especially toilets. The Shopping Centre's defining feature is shared parking with adjacent shops. Every example I used before and will use next has no public toilets whatsoever. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). A shopping centre may have a lot of fast food, but it will never be or have a food court (at least in the US and Japan). There are no drive-through food courts. I can't park my car in front of the individual shops in a food court. A mall has a designated, self-contained section full of various fast food with shared seating and amenities for the pedestrian visitors to the mall. I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. Yep. Shopping Centres can be big - it's all about car centric access to each individual shop. https://goo.gl/maps/O0BXI - roadside shopping centre https://goo.gl/maps/3b98e - two shopping centres near a freeway exit. https://goo.gl/maps/cVLrw - a really large shopping centre But Malls are massive - and most shops are accessed only through the center of the mall, by walking the center. https://goo.gl/maps/n0RqP a single mall surrounded by 8 or 9 shopping_centres. Everyone in San Deigo knows of that mall. Not everyone could name the stores or the shopping centres around it. Which is why we tag malls separately. https://goo.gl/maps/ofSO5 The Big Hanyu Aeon mall in Japan - surrounded by houses and rice fields. It has more shops than all 9 of the shopping centres in the above example put together - almost all accessed only from inside the mall. That is a Mall. That 6 shops in a row used as example #2 example in a earlier post isn't a mall whatsoever. - usually a shopping_centre rarely has _any_ shared amenities besides parking/access - a mall would have shared facilities - bathrooms, security, lost found, package wrapping services, and other shopper-centric services. Shopping_centres would usually have a shared front only, adjacent to parking (usually ringing it). - a Mall has a pedestrian exclusive area (indoor or outdoor) surrounded by shops, completely separated from all other forms of access (no cars). Shopping_centres (almost) never have shared access between a individual stores - you always have to leave one store, returning to the shared footway to access the next. - a Mall has shared entrances between large anchor stores (entering a dept store and exiting into the center of the mall, for example) Shopping_centres have no designated areas beyond the stores. - A mall has food courts, shared seating and meeting areas, stages, event areas. some even have attractions like a theme park (carousel, other kids rides) Shopping centres are usually all 1 story (but can be very wide) Occaisionally there is a second floor (or mixed use commerical/residential, which is hard to tag right now) and only basic foot access - It's almost all car centric, or adjacent to some other source of existing traffic (station, university) - A mall is primarily pedestrian based access to a majority of the shops, and often contain multilevel promenades, with elevators, escalators, and bridges connecting everything, either indoors or outdoors. OSM is missing tens of thousands of shopping_centres Javbw elaborate systems of walkways and escalators connecting the pedestrian access to the other stores. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where I live they seem to call anything a “mall”. Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838 and the “Valley Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls) Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely. I usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the buildings. IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop. On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where I live they seem to call anything a “mall”. Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838 and the “Valley Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls) Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has mall in the title . But I will be changing that. Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely. I usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the buildings. Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=＊so much. IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop. Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists. Javbw. On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
A few points: * OSM standard is British English. Shopping Centre is standard British English for an enclosed pedestrian space with lots of shops. Historically these have been covered, but this is changing to a simulated street environment (in UK Liverpool One the Arc at Bury St Edmunds are recent examples. * Use of the shop tag is inherently problematic. These are not shops but retail areas. At the moment whenever I do any kind of retail analytical query I have to do AND NOT IN (shop='mall'). I would prefer to use landuse=retail with retail=mall or retail=shopping centre etc. We certainly don't tag a centre of a village with a few shops as shop=village_centre. * shop=mall is more widely used, and although predominantly US English is not likely to be a confusion which shopping centre obviously is from prior posts here. Some of the examples cited would be usually called Retail Park for what I think is typically called a strip mall in the US, and Shopping Precinct for a smaller pedestrian area, often with only minor weather protection for shoppers. The latter are dying on their feet in the UK as they cant compete with the Retail Park or have a poor selection of shops. * I attempted to provide a fairly detailed typology of these various types of retail area in a blog post last summer (hopefully with some useful illustrations). However I think this could be expanded substantially especially with more examples from different countries. See also the typology used by a specialist Retail GIS Analytics company which features at the start of the blog. Some (largely those featuring the word Parade) may be very UK specific, but most are suitably general. There are also a couple of slides relating to the issue in my SotM-Baltics presentation (#10 in particular). * I noticed whilst attending SotM-Baltics last summer that true shopping centres/malls are very common in the main towns in Latvia and Estonia. Presumably they are a favoured way of adding new retail premises. Unfortunately many of these have 3 or more shopping floors and are even harder to map than 2 storey malls. * The two main shopping centres in Nottingham have had all the retail outlets mapped. There are many issues as to the best way to map shopping centres/malls but it is clear that if one wants to be accurate about the provision of shops in a town it is essential that this is done. They are also difficult to map because most establishments are access=customers and do not allow photography. * I mapped an area E of Pittsburgh, PA which has a nice variety of different kinds of out-of-town retail areas (a mall, Monroeville Mall, several strip malls, smaller areas, numerous car dealers). Unfortunately we don't have active mappers in the area. If anyone can identify a similar location in the US where there are active mappers and useful pictures this would really help sort out the kind of typology we need. I did start drafting a blog post on this very issue mentioning many of the points above, so it's probably time to finish it. Cheers, Jerry OpenStreetMap OpenStreetMap is the free wiki world map. View on osm.org Preview by Yahoo Blogger Free weblog publishing tool from Google, for sharing text, photos and video. View on www.blogger.com Preview by Yahoo On Tuesday, 21 October 2014, 12:22, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. Just a small interjection from a native British speaker. Shopping_centre is the normal term. mall is rarely encountered. That said, I appreciate the distinction in question, and not sure that I have much constructive to say. But I do agree that shop= seems like the wrong tag for an area or a building containing multiple shops. as another post said, landuse=retail (or building=retail?) is surely far better. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
2014-10-21 15:39 GMT+02:00 Jerry Clough - OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk: - Use of the shop tag is inherently problematic. These are not shops but retail areas. At the moment whenever I do any kind of retail analytical query I have to do AND NOT IN (shop='mall'). I would prefer to use landuse=retail with retail=mall or retail=shopping centre etc. We certainly don't tag a centre of a village with a few shops as shop=village_centre. The centre of a village is much more than just shops, but that's another discussion ;-) I agree with you that shop=shopping_centre or mall is not a good tag, unlike shop=department_store or supermarket, these are indeed entities consisting of several shops. On the other hand, landuse doesn't seem a nice tag to me neither, as it is about the use of land, an attribute. Yes, landuse=retail and retail=mall will indicate that this land is used for a mall, but I'd consider this an indirect way of stating: there must be some shopping mall over there, rather than explicitly naming the feature (e.g. amenity=shopping_centre would be a candidate), and I could also imagine situations where several landuse objects together form one shopping mall or centre (because they are interrupted in the middle by something else). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
On 21/10/2014 12:06, Brad Neuhauser wrote: I agree with Matthjis--I don't see much of a clearly defined and widely agreed on difference between the two. Given that, and the small usage of shopping_centre, I agree with should deprecate shopping_centre. Just chipping in to say that 'mall' is still considered a foreign word in Britain. The OED defines it thus: 'Chiefly N. Amer., Austral., and N.Z. A shopping precinct or street closed to vehicles; a large (usually covered) shopping centre'. -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Truckage company
As Dudley said, Haulage contractor is standard British-English for firms (and individuals) who own and operate Heavy Goods Vehicles (over 3.5 t IIRC) to transport a whole range of loads. As others have said logistics is about the whole chain of processes rather than specifically individual movements. A more generic term might be road freight. Jerry On Thursday, 9 October 2014, 23:35, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: Distribution logistics is the *planning* of moving goods from a factory to the customer - the post office isn't a logistics company. Fedex or UPS, wich will pick up, store, warehouse, and ship another company's goods as they request them to be shipped to the customer for them is a Distribution Logistics company. - they plan it (to guarantee delivery) and move it all too. It seems that Haulage is like for ore transport or bulk goods - not something you'd do with a truck on the highway. I think it is something commonly described as a logistics company. Courrier just delivers a package for a to b for a fee, like a local or regional delivery company. maybe commercial=logistics logistics=Distribution logistics=Courrier logistics=Trucking to pick up the remainder, as there are a myriad of special delivery places - piano movers, livestock delivery, boat movers, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_driver#Job_categories missed a couple: logistics would also cover the intermodal companies - moving shipping containers from boat to train to truck, as well as moving companies (people who move your house contents to another house) and storage/delivery companies. logistics=yard [for freight yards] logistics=warehouse [for the gigantic warehouses they use] logistics=intermodal logistics= movers Javbw Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away part of the fun it was contributing to this project. I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki. I asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not) give me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the changes he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm wanted to discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead wanted to make clear to him that he should get consensus first and after that change the wiki. For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of private mail. You can read that in Talk http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathpage from bicycle=yes everywhere Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I also pointed him to the wiki page on tag for routing/Access restrictions http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions with which his change conflicts. He now states that it does not conflict because those the road types under discussion are excluded from this wiki. That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this wiki was also changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of Special feature: Roadside cycletracks. So Ulamm seems to change one wiki and justifies with another wiki he has just changed. My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just changes wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development undermining the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement in OSM. I am wondering what your opinion is on this. Cheers PeeWee32 PS : History on use_sidepath wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history History Access page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictionsaction=history 2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 osmu715...@gmx.de: Hi, I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the osm-db, but also on the wiki. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so far as I know. Now he is claiming this in discussions. Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim his proposal was right. You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5]. Please bann him. Cheers, Tobias [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Verbeter de wereld. Word mapper voor Openstreetmap http://www.openstreetmap.org. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
+10 It is frustrating and I only rarely change the wiki. I always try to be polite and get into contact but only once. If there is no real reaction and only more pages are changed or directly changed after the revert, I would revert them all immediately as it is a problem if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread. cu fly Am 21.10.2014 18:36, schrieb Pee Wee: Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away part of the fun it was contributing to this project. I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki. I asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not) give me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the changes he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm wanted to discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead wanted to make clear to him that he should get consensus first and after that change the wiki. For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of private mail. You can read that in Talk http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathpage from bicycle=yes everywhere Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I also pointed him to the wiki page on tag for routing/Access restrictions http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions with which his change conflicts. He now states that it does not conflict because those the road types under discussion are excluded from this wiki. That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this wiki was also changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of Special feature: Roadside cycletracks. So Ulamm seems to change one wiki and justifies with another wiki he has just changed. My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just changes wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development undermining the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement in OSM. I am wondering what your opinion is on this. Cheers PeeWee32 PS : History on use_sidepath wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history History Access page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictionsaction=history 2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 osmu715...@gmx.de mailto:osmu715...@gmx.de: Hi, I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the osm-db, but also on the wiki. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so far as I know. Now he is claiming this in discussions. Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim his proposal was right. You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5]. Please bann him. Cheers, Tobias [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)
On Tue, 2014-10-21 at 02:21 -0700, Megha Shrestha wrote: We collected the data from field survey. By field survey what do you mean? You can obviously collect data from what you can see, from signs. But my concern is much of this information could be seen as commercially sensitive, where does this information come from? Have you the necessary permissions to use that information? Was the person giving it authorised to do so? Did the person giving it understand how you intend to use the information? Phil (trigpoint) On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:39 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-21 10:27 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com: We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload the data to osm. how did you collect the data, e.g. about landownership, the numbers of male and female workers, etc.? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
2014-10-21 18:52 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: it is a problem if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread. while I agree, I'd like to point out that this is not an isolated problem with a single user, it is systematically happening all the time. I believe that the overwhelming majority (if not all) of the wiki edits are done in good faith and with the intent to improve the documentation*, but despite this, many tags slowly move in their meaning (or better, the definition in the wiki slowly changes, the tagged objects in the db typically don't adjust automagically). Often these changes are not happening by changing what is already written but by amending the definition or restricting the suggested use case (e.g. but if A or C and not D then you should not use this tag but tag B or this tag can also be used for E). Sometimes changes are justified with differing tag definitions from translated pages (e.g. adjust definition to German wiki page). Cheers, Martin * thing is, that different people see/interpret tags differently, and even if trying to be neutral it is practically impossible to ignore your own view/interpretation ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC Tagging for complex junctions
Yes, I’m aware of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction However, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction focuses on the tagging style of intersecting roads and proposes to not connect them anymore and so avoid turn restrictions. But https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Tagging_for_complex_junctions focuses on the junction area. I would prefer to keep both discussions separate. (My first combined proposal for complex junctions and traffic signals has shown that mixing up to much topics makes the discussion harder.) However, I think both things are compatible. Concerning the tag: junction=yes or highway=junction or something completely different? The tag junction=yes is ugly, but currently yet in use for simple junctions. If we decide to use highway=junction for the area, we should use it also for the simple sections and move the existing nodes with junction=yes to highway=junction. However, I’m open for both solutions… Lukas Lukas Sommer 2014-10-21 16:00 GMT+00:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Am 18.10.2014 08:45, schrieb Lukas Sommer: Hello. The combined proposal for complex junctions and complex traffic signal systems had less support than I hoped (5 of 9 votes). Initially, I was thinking it was a good idea to treat these two features together. However, this was obviously not a good idea. It made the discussion harder. These two subjects seem to be to different to be treated together. So it seems to be better to split this into two different proposals: one for complex junctions and one for complex traffic signals. Today I start RFC for the complex junction tagging. A new proposal page has been created at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tagging_for_complex_junctions which takes into account the comments which have been made during the previous voting. Please have a look at the proposal for highway=junction [1]. It describes the same but with a different tag and the two proposal should be merged. Cheers fly [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
Pre up: I have worked with him on the soft_lane proposal - results pending. I think his intentions are good and that he just takes the be bold part of the wiki too seriously, or the changes he makes are too large. That said, I believe that talking to others is an important part of a Community Project like OSM. If there are people that don't see that it will upset others. Also, FYI, I have updated the german pages on highway=cycleway und cycleway=* (track template page) concerning the use of cw=use_sidepath as defined prior (7.10 and 8.10). I hope this last a bit. Regards Hubert ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre
Sent from my iPad On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:45 PM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com wrote: I was also thinking that landuse=retail makes more sense than either mall or shopping_centre. If you have a big building enclosing lots of shops, you can tag it building=mall. johnw, I understand the distinction you're making (I would call your shopping_centre a strip mall, I think). But do you really hear people use these terms without overlap? Do you have some evidence of this usage? For example, in wikipedia, the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_centres_in_the_United_Kingdom distinguishes shopping centres (what you're defining as malls) from retail parks (which you're defining as shopping centres). A strip mall is usually much smaller. It doesn't have any anchor stores. Although many of them have names, most people refer to the store itself as their destination. I'm going to ___shop They would never, ever, ever say I'm going to the mall for any of my shopping centre examples - but that would be the common term for referring to a large mall. They would also refer to the mall by name - I love going to Hanyu Aeon! - but almost never my def of a shopping_centre. Malls are a city-wide or regional shopping attraction, distinct from a local group of shops on the side of the road. If we want to keep these car centric, amenity free, roadside shopping areas (whatever you want to call them) just in landuse=retail, and kill off shopping_centre, that's fine. But the definition of mall needs to narrowed a bit to avoid this confusion. Even though there is a couple satellite shops in a retail anchor store's space - anything with a couple shops inside is in no way a mall. Most really large supermarkets have small rental spots for a bank, florist, coffee shop,, dry cleaner, or a donut shop. But 3 little stores doesn't make it a mall. A mall is a big, special place. Javbw On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:22 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where I live they seem to call anything a “mall”. Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838 and the “Valley Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls) Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has mall in the title . But I will be changing that. Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely. I usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the buildings. Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=＊so much. IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop. Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists. Javbw. On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
