Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[François Lacombe]

I would love to read feedbacks on man_made=street_cabinet +
street_cabinet=postal_service vs amenity=relay_box

IMHO, amenity=relay_box doesn't sound like a postal box at first sight.
What is relayed inside ?


All the best


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2014-11-18 16:03 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> 2014-11-18 15:50 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
> >>
> >>
> >> How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
> >
> > postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay
>
>
>
> I have been looking around in taginfo and have found these in use:
>
> -  1 man_made=post_delivery_storage_box
> -  278 amenity=relay_box  --> these are all from user andrewpmk and seem
> to be all operated by Canada Post
> -  2 amenity=relay_post_box
>
> I'd go for amenity=postal_relay_box as it is more specific/clear than
> without the "postal" prefix
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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[Tagging] Feature proposal - Power routing - Change of ownership

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

Surly and I have decided to bring the power routing proposal complete in a
few months.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Power_routing_proposal

I grant to Surly full ownership on this document and I stay around for
commenting and helping him with this new tagging scheme.

Feel free to get involved on the discussion page to give feedbacks.


The power transmission refinement is still waiting for details
clarification and may be open to your vote in a couple of weeks.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement


All the best



*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 15:50 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>
>> How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
>
> postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay



I have been looking around in taginfo and have found these in use:

-  1 man_made=post_delivery_storage_box
-  278 amenity=relay_box  --> these are all from user andrewpmk and seem to
be all operated by Canada Post
-  2 amenity=relay_post_box

I'd go for amenity=postal_relay_box as it is more specific/clear than
without the "postal" prefix

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 13:50 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe :

> Automated containers for garbage collecting actually exists with kind of
> systems depending on how rubbishes are collected :
>
> - Monitoring to warn operator of an undergoing overflow
> - Control to allow automatic collecting (often pneumatic)
>


yes, there are also systems in some places to weigh the garbage you insert
in order to calculate a fee. Still not convinced, because most trash
container enclosements aren't technical and also those that do have
technical devices are containers for trash, not for devices/tools.

I don't see the point in having telecom switches in the same category with
trash bins.



>
> "technical equipment" is a generic term, not only hard-to-understand
> electronic devices
> It should be considered at a large sense
>


agreed.



>
> How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
>


postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] pipeline flow direction; was: Feature Proposal - RFC - Pipeline Extensions

[Rainer Fügenstein]

hi,

TK> I'm certainly no pipeline expert, so forgive my ignorance. Does
TK> flow_direction=both mean that there actually is flow in both direction
TK> at the same time or does it alternate between flow directions?
the latter. the direction of the flow within the pipeline may be
changed.

TK> If the
TK> latter, perhaps a value could be chosen that better expresses this.
the original proposal was "loop=yes", because that's the technical
term used by the pipeline operators ("loop configuration").

TK> It should also be noted that flow_direction has been discussed as a tag
TK> for waterways, so if your definition leaves the door open for this
TK> potential use case, it would be quite helpful.

that was the reason to discard loop=* and adopt flow_direction -
to have a more generic term to also be used in other cases.

this raises one question: should the pipeline proposal be accepted,
will it be necessary to start another vote process for flow_direction?
or is it sufficient to just add the page to the wiki?

cu


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[John Willis]

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 9:50 PM, François Lacombe  
> wrote:
> 
> How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
> Such relay boxes are key-part of national postal infrastructure.

I thought it fit well enough, so I voted yes. I also saw a solution to my 
cabinet problem as well - so I suggested the waste value during voting. 

~~

Do we sort everything by function? By method? By operator? By location? By size 
? By type of medium handled?

Everything eventually falls into every category. There's always going to be 
something about every value that makes it a rough fit - at least with the way 
tagging seems to be currently. 

Do we need a mail subkey? A waste subkey? I don't know. 

Adding a value or two to a key gets questioned as to its fit with existing 
categories, and creating a category creates questions of scope. It seems to be 
very difficult to find the happy center. 

Congratulations on getting street_cabinet approved, I hope my proposals are as 
lucky. 

J 



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[François Lacombe]

Automated containers for garbage collecting actually exists with kind of
systems depending on how rubbishes are collected :

- Monitoring to warn operator of an undergoing overflow
- Control to allow automatic collecting (often pneumatic)

"technical equipment" is a generic term, not only hard-to-understand
electronic devices
It should be considered at a large sense

How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
Such relay boxes are key-part of national postal infrastructure.

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2014-11-18 11:56 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> 2014-11-18 11:51 GMT+01:00 johnw :
>
>> Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the
>> initial proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.
>
>
>
> not sure how that has happened ;-)
> I completely agree with you that it doesn't fit the definition.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

On 2014-11-18 at 11:46:51 +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2014-11-18 11:25 GMT+01:00 Elena ``of Valhalla'' :
> > * can be drinked after filtering
> "could be drunk after filtering": I guess almost everything can be
> filtered/decontaminated with adequate equipment, time and if money and
> energy are not an issue ;-)
> You'll need different filters for different kinds of contamination btw. ;-)

"could be drunk after filtering with commercially available portable 
filters of the kind commonly carried by backpackers" :)

AFAIK most such filters are designed for a limited and somewhat 
standard range of common pollutants (mostly bacterical, admittedly,
which overlaps with "can be drinked after boiling/sterilizing")

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Warin]

On 18/11/2014 9:53 PM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:25:34 +0100
From: Elena ``of Valhalla'' 
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap
Message-ID: <20141118102516.gd2...@virginsteele.home.trueelena.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 2014-11-18 at 11:11:30 +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I'd make this "water:quality" and values potable | mineral | de:heilwasser
(or an English correspondent if available, or DE:heilwasser because it
refers to German legislation)
maybe also add "toxic" / "contaminated"(?), "non-potable"
not sure about "radioactive"?

it would have been needed a few decades ago :)


heilwater = A healing water that can be used by drinking or for medical 
baths.


Here in Australia they generally go by the description 'spring water' 
for drinking or 'hot bath springs' ? for bathing. They cannot legally 
claim medical cures unless proven. And proving something legally is 
expensive.


There is at least one naturally radioactive spring here. Not safe to 
drink nor camp near!




more seriously, I believe that the interesting distinction in water
quality below the potable point is

* can be drinked after filtering
* can be drinked after boling / sterilizing
* too contaminated for easy treatment




Add * requires both filtering and then boiling/sterilizing before drinking


How about
 
"water:quality" and values potable |non-potable|unknown


The detail of the water may not be easily known .. so may be left off by most 
mappers. And how much filtering etc needs to be applied?
I think this comes down to a lot of local knowledge, current rain fall, dam 
releases and the user. So it may best be left off.

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Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 8:46 GMT+01:00 johnw :

> Martin - Do you have any suggestion for cleaning up the civic=* subkey I
> was suggesting for building=civic in this way?
>
> I assume we need a big generic key, and then a many subcategories that
> fall under that key.
>
> Building=civic
> +
> civic:legislation=city council ?
> civic:administration=motor_vehicles ?
>
>

building is about the _building_ typology. "civic" or "public_building" are
not amongst the building types I'd suggest to use, I'd go for stuff that is
more literal / specific like

building=community_center
building=courthouse
building=government_administration
building=hospital
building=library
building=post_office
building=school
building=church
building=concert_hall
building=university
building=town_hall
building=train_station
building=art_gallery
building=museum



for functions like "city council", "driver and vehicle licensing agency",
"ministry of defense" we should not use the building key (and not even the
building object IMHO) but use a dedicated object and have tags for these
functions. This would maybe better work with subtags, one tag to say
something like: this is a government agency, and another tag to say which
type/function of agency it is.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 11:51 GMT+01:00 johnw :

> Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the initial
> proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.



not sure how that has happened ;-)
I completely agree with you that it doesn't fit the definition.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] pipeline flow direction; was: Feature Proposal - RFC - Pipeline Extensions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 9:37 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> "while flow_direction=oneway doesn't imply any specific direction"
>
> It is well established that oneway=yes means "in direction of the way" and
> oneway=-1 "in opposite direction than the way".




yes, oneway=yes means that (vehicle)-traffic may (legally) only run in the
direction of the way, and with "-1" you can invert this. If flow direction
should have worked like this the tag would have been
flow_direction:oneway=yes|-1|no.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[johnw]

Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the initial 
proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.

Javbw.




> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 2014-11-18 8:32 GMT+01:00 johnw mailto:jo...@mac.com>>:
> updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures. 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet 
> 
> 
> This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to 
> “Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is 
> not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay 
> cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets. 
> 
> 
> yes, they are metal boxes alongside streets (like post boxes and letter boxes 
> are for instance), but they do not fit the definition of street cabinet 
> according to the wiki, unless "waste" qualifies as "sort of equipment":
> 
> "A street cabinet hosts many sorts of equipment, often technical stuff, while 
> being of a size or contruction that workers cannot enter themselves."
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 11:25 GMT+01:00 Elena ``of Valhalla'' :

> * can be drinked after filtering
> * can be drinked after boling / sterilizing
> * too contaminated for easy treatment
>


yes, the kind of contamination could matter (biological / chemical /
radioactive) in some (IMHO rare) cases. Chemical contamination will
typically be divided into anorganic (Cu, As, Mg, Pb, Hg, ... basically
everything that isn't based on carbon) and organic (pesticides, herbicides,
solvents, gasoline...) substances. Of course the concentration will also
matter (you'll always find something, the question will be how much and how
much of a certain substance/organism is tolerable for an adult, an infant
or a pregnant woman). But most people will not be able to use these
informations properly even if they were available in detail ;-). And we
will not be able to keep them current. In the end, we are a map, not a
water monitoring association.

contamination:biological=yes
contamination:anorganic=...

"could be drunk after filtering": I guess almost everything can be
filtered/decontaminated with adequate equipment, time and if money and
energy are not an issue ;-)
You'll need different filters for different kinds of contamination btw. ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-18 8:32 GMT+01:00 johnw :

> updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
> 
>
> This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to
> “Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is
> not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay
> cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets.
>


yes, they are metal boxes alongside streets (like post boxes and letter
boxes are for instance), but they do not fit the definition of street
cabinet according to the wiki, unless "waste" qualifies as "sort of
equipment":

"A *street cabinet* hosts many sorts of equipment, often technical stuff,
while being of a size or contruction that workers cannot enter themselves."

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

On 2014-11-18 at 11:11:30 +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I'd make this "water:quality" and values potable | mineral | de:heilwasser
> (or an English correspondent if available, or DE:heilwasser because it
> refers to German legislation)
> maybe also add "toxic" / "contaminated"(?), "non-potable"
> not sure about "radioactive"?

it would have been needed a few decades ago :)

http://www.ganzomag.com/italian-radium-craze.html

more seriously, I believe that the interesting distinction in water 
quality below the potable point is

* can be drinked after filtering
* can be drinked after boling / sterilizing
* too contaminated for easy treatment

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-11-17 23:26 GMT+01:00 Kotya Karapetyan :

> What about introducing a name space:
> water_source:potable=designated | mineral | heilwasser (I failed to find a
> good English-language analogue, could someone help please?)
>


I'd make this "water:quality" and values potable | mineral | de:heilwasser
(or an English correspondent if available, or DE:heilwasser because it
refers to German legislation)
maybe also add "toxic" / "contaminated"(?), "non-potable"
not sure about "radioactive"?



> water_source:sparkling=yes | no | unknown
>


in analogy: "water:effervescent" (or ~:sparkling)



> water_source:nonpotable=compromised | designated
>


could maybe be integrated in the quality-tag?



>
> In principle, details regarding the kind of water source could be provided
> here as well, to free up the top level a bit and help data users:
>
> water_source:type = tap | fountain | well | spring
>


or have this inherited from the main tag (e.g. amenity=fountain,
man_made=water_tap, natural=spring, man_made=water_well

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] pipeline flow direction; was: Feature Proposal - RFC - Pipeline Extensions

[SomeoneElse]

On 18/11/2014 08:37, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

"while flow_direction=oneway doesn't imply any specific direction"

It is well established that oneway=yes means "in direction of the way" 
and oneway=-1 "in opposite direction than the way".




To be clear, "oneway=yes" means _traffic_ direction in the direction of 
the way, not _flow_ direction.  In the case of waterways, these can be 
different.


For waterways the _flow_ direction is assumed to be in the direction of 
the way (and yes, this causes issues with some canals and drains).


However as written the wiki page currently says 
"flow_direction=forward/backward/both" - it makes sense to me to avoid 
the word "oneway" to avoid confusion.


Cheers,

Andy

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Re: [Tagging] pipeline flow direction; was: Feature Proposal - RFC - Pipeline Extensions

[Tobias Knerr]

On 17.11.2014 22:33, Rainer Fügenstein wrote:
> MK> +1, also this way you give information about the direction of flow 
> relative
> MK> to the osm way, while flow_direction=oneway doesn't imply any specific
> MK> direction, it only states that the direction is not reversible.
> 
> proposal updated in this regard.

I'm certainly no pipeline expert, so forgive my ignorance. Does
flow_direction=both mean that there actually is flow in both direction
at the same time or does it alternate between flow directions? If the
latter, perhaps a value could be chosen that better expresses this.

It should also be noted that flow_direction has been discussed as a tag
for waterways, so if your definition leaves the door open for this
potential use case, it would be quite helpful.


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Re: [Tagging] pipeline flow direction; was: Feature Proposal - RFC - Pipeline Extensions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

"while flow_direction=oneway doesn't imply any specific direction"

It is well established that oneway=yes means "in direction of the way" and
oneway=-1 "in opposite direction than the way".

2014-11-17 22:33 GMT+01:00 Rainer Fügenstein :

>
>
> MK> +1, also this way you give information about the direction of flow
> relative
> MK> to the osm way, while flow_direction=oneway doesn't imply any specific
> MK> direction, it only states that the direction is not reversible.
>
> proposal updated in this regard.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

[johnw]

> On Nov 17, 2014, at 8:05 PM, François Lacombe  
> wrote:
> 
> A large amount of values can be added to street_cabinet key.
> 
> I think you should only open a thread on Talk page to let other contributors 
> discuss about it and relay the discussion here on @tagging
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet 
> 
> 
> No need to complex proposal process IMHO.

updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures. 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet 


This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to 
“Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is not 
technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay cabinet - 
but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets. 

Javbw. ___
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