[Tagging] Rendering surface values
Default map style has significant power in shaping how map is tagged. Therefore I want to keep good tagging, documentation on Wiki and my proposed rendering of surface tags in Default Map Style synchronized. On https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110#issuecomment-102763588 I posted proposal how surface values would be interpreted. To all people using stone, rocky, rock, limerock, granite, cement, bricks, brick, hard, interlock, pebbles and laterite values for surface tag - please consider problems mentioned in my recent tagging mailing list postings. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?
Archipelago? Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, 2015-05-17 at 16:23 +0200, Richard Z. wrote: ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Estate agent
Hi all, it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that office=estate_agent is much more popular. My suggestion is to set status of shop=estate_agent as 'abandoned' and office=estate_agent as 'de facto'. Any objections? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Destate_agent http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Destate_agent Cheers -- *Paweł Marynowski* Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Estate agent
On 17/05/2015 16:52, Paweł Marynowski wrote: Hi all, it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that office=estate_agent is much more popular. Surely both are potentially valid? Some estate agents' premises are very definitely shops, yet other estate agents work primarily from offices (where the emphasis isn't on facing the customer there). Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Estate agent
On May 17, 2015, at 9:01 AM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote: On 17/05/2015 16:52, Paweł Marynowski wrote: Hi all, it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that office=estate_agent is much more popular. Surely both are potentially valid? Some estate agents' premises are very definitely shops, yet other estate agents work primarily from offices (where the emphasis isn't on facing the customer there). Perhaps is it because I speak American rather than British, but to me a shop is a place where the item(s) I buy can be carried out, if not in a shopping bag then on a truck (lorry). Assuming that “estate agent” translates to “real estate agent”, I would expect them to work out of an office rather than out of a shop. Love the “bike shedding” that this list promotes. (Not really, but I was unaware of that term until I joined this list and it really does apply to nearly every tagging topic covered here.) Cheers, Tod smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
Just exactly how can a data consumer be “abstracted from our tags”? Where in a typical rendering process could this abstraction be placed where it would be automatic and transparent to the people maintaining the data consumers? For example, I generate PDF/paper trail maps for an organization using OSM. My scripts download the extract from geofabrik that includes our area of interest and makes the maps from that. Unless geofabrik translates (abstracts) the tags, an unlikely and undesirable thing for them to do, then I will need to make changes in my scripts to handle any changes in tagging that my organization cares about. Maybe it would be in the stage where we load a database with object information, maybe it would be in the rendering stage or maybe in both areas. But I will have to make changes to get my map generation working again. I strongly suspect that many other data consumer maintainers would have the same issue. —Tod On May 17, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with this, but I think consumers should be abstrated from our tags too. It shouldn't be impossible to change the meaning of a tag. But untill such abstraction is made, no major changes should be made. Janko ned, 17. svi 2015. 15:14 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com mailto:da...@frankieandshadow.com je napisao: It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code, only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?
On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 04:15:02PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote: Archipelago? the text says Groups of islands: add the natural=coastline into a multipolygon. why would I do that? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?
There was a proposal of the tag cluster recently, and a mailing list thread: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/020959.html ned, 17. svi 2015. 17:24 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com je napisao: On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 04:15:02PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote: Archipelago? the text says Groups of islands: add the natural=coastline into a multipolygon. why would I do that? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?
natural=archipelago Am 17.05.2015 um 18:33 schrieb Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: There was a proposal of the tag cluster recently, and a mailing list thread: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/020959.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Estate agent
OK, but in this case exactly the same name tag isn't confusing? If we consider two different tags valid, it should be estate agent and estate agency or estate broker. Or at least clear definition on wiki. 2015-05-17 19:26 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 17.05.2015 um 17:52 schrieb Paweł Marynowski y...@openstreetmap.pl: it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that office=estate_agent is much more popular. you seem to assume that these are about the same thing but to me it seems that's two different kind of places. Both tags make sense in different contexts cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- *Paweł Marynowski* Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Estate agent
The one near me is deffo a shop - sells coffee and sandwiches! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Estate agent
On 5/17/2015 1:26 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that office=estate_agent is much more popular. you seem to assume that these are about the same thing but to me it seems that's two different kind of places. Both tags make sense in different contexts The history as I remember it was that shop= was the first version of estate_agent. After office= was 'invented', that became a much more natural place to put it, and I think I migrated all of my entries over. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 17 May 2015 at 14:12, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: This is no way to treat consumers of map data. If you make major changes like this, anyone using the map has to scramble to change their rendering code. If there's no semblance of upward compatibility, people will lose interest in OSM because it is just too hard to maintain, and if there is any kind of automation involved, suddenly people's online apps stop working and it becomes an emergency. It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code, only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID. Please drop this suggestion, it is not helpful. It's an unprofessional way to treat customers. David Unfortunately change is inevitable and it happens to Microsoft and Google customers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer
On Sun, 2015-05-17 at 23:01 +0200, Daniel Koć wrote: Once we start seeing through the eyes of people using the map, who can help expand and refine our data, we can understand what are their background, what are the problems for them and how they may behave when experiencing obstacles. That may give us a hint what could we do to let them be better mappers and achieve their personal goals at the same time. Yep, well said ! While it might well be fun to treat the database as a write only memory, for the project to move forward, we need to concentrate on what end users want, need and might use. And, sticking my neck out here, one thing most end users expect and probably need is to find the terms used in the database can be looked up (eg in the wiki) and clearly understood. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] amenity vs. shop *=ice_cream
On 17 May 2015 at 22:15, Paweł Marynowski y...@openstreetmap.pl wrote: To clarify, I suggest to change image on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream to this one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_shop_-_Florida.jpg. Current image looks more like amenity=cafe (you can see sth to drink in the background and place to rest). -- *Paweł Marynowski* Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ This is better, imo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_van_(4022093988).jpg - no hot food from this one so deffo not shop not fast food! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer
On 18/05/2015 6:04 AM, Daniel Koć wrote: W dniu 16.05.2015 9:55, Janko Mihelić napisał(a): It maybe controversial, but I think we don't want everyone editing the map. I think we need some barriers to filter out people who are good mappers. Good mappers have to understand this is not a service for them, but a community. They have to understand this is not a drawn map but a database. They have to appreciate the effort of others, and so on. I think everyone editing the map is the way to go. We just need to be prepared for vandalism if we get more popular - and Wikipedia clearly shows it's possible. Yes .. everyone who wants to should have access to edit the map. The editing needs to be easy, fun and productive.. if it is not then most people will leave. The more complex and technical OSM becomes the less information will be entered and the more probable incorrect entries will be made. Good mappers contribute their time, knowledge .. usually at some cost to them, and want to see a result. OSM should accept that. If OSM bars common people for 'helping' then there will be a narrow focus and a reduction in data entered. If you are not stubborn geek and you want to try to map many different kind of objects available locally, and are not interested in just one particular kind of them, you will loose. No. It is OSM that looses the input from that person. If OSM upsets people then some of them may well become vandals. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Group of islands?
___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer
W dniu 16.05.2015 9:55, Janko Mihelić napisał(a): It maybe controversial, but I think we don't want everyone editing the map. I think we need some barriers to filter out people who are good mappers. Good mappers have to understand this is not a service for them, but a community. They have to understand this is not a drawn map but a database. They have to appreciate the effort of others, and so on. I think everyone editing the map is the way to go. We just need to be prepared for vandalism if we get more popular - and Wikipedia clearly shows it's possible. Some people will do the technical stuff (servers, tagging schemes crafting, rendering etc.), but most of them will only add buildings and POIs in the neighborhood or visiting some places - and the long-tail distribution says that is also the most of our database! So it is a precious content, even if very basic. Of course, not everyone is a good mapper from the start, and starting to map should be easy and fun. And I think it is. But if you want to go to the next step and become a regular mapper, something not being rendered shouldn't be an obstacle for you to continue mapping it. The most surprising (in a bad sense) for new mappers is probably decentralized nature of the project. It's easy to start with iD, but anything above clicking presets is a huge obstacle! You have to start being active on some forums and lists, know a lot of technical and social conventions, have a time to invest in developing a single feature on this list, on wiki, then with rendering - and if you even succeed in one of these places, they are so disconnected (autonomous), that you have to deal with them separately. If you are not stubborn geek and you want to try to map many different kind of objects available locally, and are not interested in just one particular kind of them, you will loose. Micromapping is this kind of work and I suppose that is what average mapper want to do, not crafting and dealing with proper global definitions. And the main motivation is you can see it, not routing or big data analysis. On the highest zoom levels we could easily show much more currently missing features, so maybe we should remember that not every object needs to be rendered on middle and large scale - micromapping is all about micro scale and we don't even show highways properly there, as if we live only on the middle and big scale, where they are not considered to be areas! -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer
W dniu 16.05.2015 19:42, Richard Welty napisał(a): on the other hand, demanding that the rendering on www.openstreetmap.org [1] be all things to all people is actually pretty unreasonable. the current architecture which separates data from style is well considered and in line with modern best practices; i haven't yet seen an argument that would persuade me otherwise. For only experts, probably yes (like HTML development or the likes). But we're much closer to Wikipedia, where we don't demand anybody to be GIS-aware or to participate in making drafts. We're not community of GIS experts, rather small-scale mappers, just like Wikipedians. But it's much easier to write new article or even put the photo there than try to make visible some features one consider essential. We don't care for them now and I think we should start to do it. Maybe some user-cases study would be useful to conduct, like in usability research - these examples may get you the idea how one can do it to imagine the possible real life scenarios: a) Mary is a 32 australian farmer and wants to have the data about her big farm... b) Jerzy is a 54 polish librarian fond on taking picture of the nature and he likes to have a map of birds nests... c) Tove is 21 of Finnish descent living in Sweden and she regularly sails on the Baltic sea on her parents boat... ...and so on. Once we start seeing through the eyes of people using the map, who can help expand and refine our data, we can understand what are their background, what are the problems for them and how they may behave when experiencing obstacles. That may give us a hint what could we do to let them be better mappers and achieve their personal goals at the same time. The important thing is we should not just research using tools like iD, but rather we should look what they try to achieve with OSM as a project. Maybe conducting real study would be the best, I don't know, but until we try to understand them, and we will just keep saying DON'T map for renderer, they will go away or just do it anyway... what we could use are more people doing projects like opencyclemap and openfiremap and the like to bring out the data they care about in formats that they like. I disagree - they typically won't have enough technical skills and the OSM is already very scattered. For example adding routing to the main site was a huge step ahead, because it's the whole toolset is what the people need, not just a do-it-yourself kit. Google Maps are not the best, but the fact that it is part of their ecosystem (routing, ads, mail etc.) makes them very useful and popular. my presentation at SOTM US will include examples of using leaflet, jquery and overpass to create mashups of OHM and OSM data, and i'll be making my javascript available on the ohm github repository under a 3 clause BSD license for anyone who wants to play. That is nice, but most our mappers don't know even these words, let alone have enough competence to use it themselves. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] amenity vs. shop *=ice_cream
2015-05-14 19:41 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 14.05.2015 um 18:44 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: Expecting any difference in how these tags are used is naive. I agree, mostly, there is a difference in amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream, you can be sure there will be table service and they will usually also sell cups of ice cream (compositions with ice cream and fruit). These are typical e.g. for the areas of Germany with Italian immigration, while you hardly ever have them in Rome. Also a mobile ice cream man would more likely be tagged as amenity, not as a shop, while a shop would always be within a building or other structure, an amenity could or not. To clarify, I suggest to change image on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream to this one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_shop_-_Florida.jpg. Current image looks more like amenity=cafe (you can see sth to drink in the background and place to rest). -- *Paweł Marynowski* Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] service=yard - changing definition on wiki from marshaling yard to railway yard
service=yard is widely considered as to be used to tag tracks in complex series of railroad tracks for storing, sorting, or loading/unloading, railroad cars and/or locomotives. But Wiki currently defines service=yard to be used only for marshaling yards ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:service%3Dyard ) - narrower term. Marshaling yard is a type/part of railway yard - used to separate railroad freight cars on to one of several tracks Maybe that was initial tagging and it would probably stay this way with self-documenting tag (service=marshaling_yard) but as tag was much more general than its definition it is now used to tag any kind of railway yard (up to and including tram depots). I propose to change on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:service%3Dyard marshaling yard to railway yard to document current tagging. Overpass query, starts centered on tram depot with service=yard: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/9p8 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
This is no way to treat consumers of map data. If you make major changes like this, anyone using the map has to scramble to change their rendering code. If there's no semblance of upward compatibility, people will lose interest in OSM because it is just too hard to maintain, and if there is any kind of automation involved, suddenly people's online apps stop working and it becomes an emergency. It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code, only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID. Please drop this suggestion, it is not helpful. It's an unprofessional way to treat customers. David On Sun, 17 May 2015 at 00:18 AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: I believe that the discussion regarding amenity v landuse should consider that where amenity designates the actual use of the area as in amenity=school, landuse designates the general use of the land... in the case of the school it should be landuse=education, the same as you get landuse=residential, landuse=farmland, landuse=commercial. In normal cartography there would be different maps designed to depict a specific theme, we called them Thematic Maps. A map depicting landuse would concentrate on the general use of that land pocket, at larger scales the landuse would be more specific as to the categories of landuse used. With OpenStreetMap everything is bunged together on a single map and that really confuses a lot of people into believing that you can separate out the tagging into something that fits. You cannot without restricting the use of the map. Some people using the map will be interested in the landuse, others may be more interested in the amenities. They are two separate and independent themes. We do not at this stage have the zoom levels organised to show certain thematics at each level nor do we have them separated into separate layers that can be switched on or off depending on what you want on the map. To get rid of one discriminates against those who have a requirement for that type of information. OSM is only now starting to realise that not all the specialist detail can be depicted on one map and we are starting to see specialist areas creating their own detailed layer of OSM such as the Cycle Map, Transport Map and separate maps such as OpenSeaMap. Once this idea has spread to other specifics then the tagging can be designed specifically for the requirements of those layers and the argument for landuse v amenity will be redundant So what the OSM community needs is to reconcile their own specific ideas with the requirements of others and reach a way of depicting their own preferences without compromising the preferences of others. Not by getting rid of a whole level of tags just because you do not understand them in context with what your interests are. Here is hoping we can all reach an amicable agreement and concentrate on the mapping. Regards to all Ralph On 16 May 2015 at 14:29, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 16 May 2015 at 04:27, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 15, 2015, at 8:02 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: area IS landuse - it has to be (landuse=ocean ) so we get landuse=building even. Uhhh. *What?* This is a clear about-face on the landuse tag then. Everywhere is clearly not a landuse. Most of the earth is not altered nor designated nor segregated for a specific use. I can define an “area” of the world. But if there are no purposeful alterations for a task, designations of purpose, nor manmade buildings and amenities contained within…. then it is not a landuse. There is no landuse=glacier for a reason. Most of the ocean is “unused” by people. - they have not changed it to have a specific purpose, nor altered the water to do a specific job - and it’s pretty hard to have a landuse on an ocean (maybe oceanuse=fish_farm?) That would be a great oceanuse tag- there are plenty of floating, manmade, use-specific, designated-to-be fish farms around the world. They take up what… .01% of the ocean? the rest of the ocean has no man-altered, segregated, designated use (besides political ones) - but those are not “on the ground” in reality (like a fish farm or a oyster farm). I have no idea where you get the notion that area=landuse. land… *used* for a task. being a woods or a mountain or a lake is not the “job” or “designated purpose” of the area. It just is. hence the natural= tag. However, the land around a school building, usually fenced in, *containing the facility and amenities that belong to the facility and designated as such* (pitch, walkways, parking, etc) is clearly part of the school - but not a school building. The grounds and the building together make that “school. That *land*…. designated to be *use*d by people… as a school… And which currently is *altered from it’s natural state* … to
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
I agree with this, but I think consumers should be abstrated from our tags too. It shouldn't be impossible to change the meaning of a tag. But untill such abstraction is made, no major changes should be made. Janko ned, 17. svi 2015. 15:14 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com je napisao: It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code, only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
