Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[John Willis]

> On Aug 22, 2015, at 8:19 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 21.08.2015 um 10:19 schrieb John Willis :
>> 
>> I have temple grounds here
> 
> what about
> 
> amenity=temple_grounds
> religion=*  ?
> 

We would need 5-7 new amenity tags to cover what is already covered with 
landuse=*

We already define the religious buildings themselves through building=* and the 
POW through amenity, and the religion and denomination through their respective 
tags. 

We don't have landuse=supermarket, pharmacy, and mall - we have a generic 
Landuse that says "this is retail"

Similarly - the details of the building present (mosque, shrine, temple, 
church, cathedral, synagogue, etc), the religion, and denomination and what 
exactly is the POW are handled by other tags, just like a supermarket with 
building=retail, amenity=supermarket (i think), so the landuse=* is there just 
to generically say "this is land used by a retail facility" 

Landuse=religious generically says "this is land used by a religious facility". 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[John Willis]

I wrote a more detailed response on another thread - but i think it easily 
boils down to landuse=religious is for a POW and its amenities. That can be 
checked by two things:

-it is a single (named) landuse whose main function or main building is 
religious in nature, usually with a POW tag on that particular building or 
feature. 

- Any other amenities present, no matter how varied, are okay to be there on 
that single land use if they are *in support of* the worshippers or the 
visitors of the POW(s). 

This feels very straightforward to me, because it is dependent on what is 
there, and intended purpose, not merely who holds the deed. (Duck tagging!)

Land ownership itself is not important - an apartment is just an apartment with 
church as operator or something. 

A dedicated apartment for monks at a remote temple facility (with a single name 
and a wall around it) would be on landuse=religious - it clearly meets the the 
two things above. the baseball diamond near the river and the sports grounds 
nearby my school are wholly owned by my school (therefore the temple), but 
easily fail the two criteria above. They are marked as sports pitches in OSM, 
operator=[the school] and access=private

Because of the varied nature of religious facilities - POWs with a wide variety 
of things on their landuse - landuse=religious needs to be somewhat flexible - 
there are always odd examples (tire center on church grounds next to the 
church) but the basic criteria of the two rules make it easily understood that 
"this is a religious facility and its amenities" just like any other retail / 
industrial / commercial / residential facility - Just as Costco is a warehouse 
store... With a pharmacy, food court, and tire center and gas station. It is 
odd to have a supermarket/warehouse with a tire installation center or gas 
station, but that is what it is.

Many houses and most large buildings - especially industrial ones - have a 
small shinto shrine in the far corner of the lot, thanking the spirit of the 
land the drop forge is on for letting them use the land and not causing them 
trouble (AFAIK).

This small shrine (the size of a desk or shed) is an amenity of the industrial 
complex - so it sits on Landuse=industrial.

I an not trying to say that this makes a little square of landuse=religious 
necessary nor the enitre complex marked as "religious" is because merely there 
is a shrine there. Otherwise almost all Japanese houses would be considered 
religious because of the small "house shrine" found in most single family 
homes. It is clearly mot the purpose of the structures & land.

But if you are tagging a religious facility with known land area around, yes, I 
expect landuse=religious around it, just like you would tag retail around a 
convenience store or industrial around a small metal parts fabrication company. 

Javbw


> On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:34 PM, Andreas Goss  wrote:
> 
>> On 8/21/15 10:19 , John Willis wrote:
>> When you live in places that don't have churches - churchyard is incorrect - 
>> especially when **it isn't mapping a yard**.
>> 
>> I have temple grounds here. So churchyard is also not a neutral tag, 
>> therefore it is a garbage tag. It should be depreciated and erased.
> 
> Then we should maybe come up with a tag that covers the area around a place 
> of worship. Sacred ground or something like that. I'm no saying churchyard 
> was the perfect tag, but at lest it was very clear what it meant when used.
> 
> 
>> And there are many complexes that have many many buildings associated with, 
>> yet are not a POW, so mapping it as a landuse - like we do for 
>> residential/commercial/retail/industrial facilities ***is more consistent***.
> 
> Sure, the problem is that landuse=religious will often clash with those. What 
> if you have a brewery run by monks? What if you have housing that's owned by 
> the church? In Germany the church is the largest private land owner, they own 
> a lot of commercial building etc. are those then all landuse=religious?
> 
> Also if I have church do I now have to put landuse religious around it every 
> time?
> 
>> The front lawn in front of an industrial complex is on landuse=industrial. 
>> Same with its office, parking lots, storage sheds, and everything else that 
>> isn't a drop forge.
>> 
>> The exact same reasoning applies - and applies consistently - to a religious 
>> complex that is more than just a church.
>> 
>> Would you be complaining that a parking lot for the industrial drop forge - 
>> sitting on the named landuse for the industrial facility- isn't right 
>> because "that parking lot is not a drop forge! What is the parking lot 
>> making?  It isn't a factory!!"
>> 
>> Thats what I hear when people complain about landuse=religious - "are they 
>> worshipping a parking lot?? So stupid!"
> 
> No, my problem is much more when for example the church owns some offices 
> somwhere does it then make that landuse=religious? Or as pointed out above if 

Re: [Tagging] Contact:* prefix

[André Pirard]

On 2015-08-04 14:57, Dave F. wrote :
> Hi
>
> wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:contact
>
> I remember a discussion a while back about this. As the page makes no
> mention of the logic behind, could someone please remind me of the
> reasoning & advantage over straight forward phone, fax, website etc.
The contact prefix makes it clear that it's a contact and keeps them
grouped alphabetically.
Without it, one can wonder what diaspora is or difficultly find contacts
in a long tag list.
Also, contact:website is not exactly the same as website which could
contain no contacts at all.

It's similar to, for example, bicycle=yes.
Many persons use it meaninglessly, not as a override of a restriction.
They probably didn't read the documentation and they tag similarly to
what they see.
They probably believe that it means a road nice for biking or with a
cycle lane.
If we used the full form *access:bicycle=yes*, as Conditional
restrictions
 explains,
the meaning would be clearer and the mistake would probably be avoided.

Cheers

André.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.08.2015 um 13:28 schrieb Craig Allan :
> 
> 'frequency' is used about 1.2 million times, so its standard too. 
> "intermittent" and "weekly" already exist as values. "allyear" is new.


maybe service_times are also interesting ?


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.08.2015 um 10:19 schrieb John Willis :
> 
> When you live in places that don't have churches - churchyard is incorrect - 
> especially when **it isn't mapping a yard**. 
> 
> I have temple grounds here



what about

amenity=temple_grounds
religion=*  ?


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=religious & Monastic schools

[John Willis]

I'll give you three real life examples. Two where landuse=religious should be 
used, one where it shouldn't.

1) 

My parents church is a rather (physically) large presbyterian church. It is a 
complex with a giant chapel building on a hill. There is one sign out front: 
church. 

The church grounds have a big parking lot. A "fellowship hall" used for 
speeches, parties, receptions, and events, and occasionally religious services, 
through there is no altar.
It has a small two story building built into the hill that act as storerooms 
and meeting rooms, and the bottom floor is used as a 2 room preschool, with a 
tiny playground. One room is used as a Sunday School room (religious services 
for kids). There is a grass quad, a fountain, and a small office building. 

All of the other buildings, stacked upon each other, would be about the size of 
the chapel. All the buildings are in support of activities of the church. There 
is no fence separating anything. they all share the quad, office, kitchen, and 
parking lot. The preschool is an amenity for the worshippers. 

So it sits on a single landuse=religious, with the POW on the chapel, and 
preschool point tagged on the building where the kids are (though it is 
administrated from the common office). There is a single entrance, a single 
driveway onto the one named landuse. 

2) 

The Asakusa Temple complex at Asakusa in Tokyo. 

This singularly named complex is full of POWs with unique names and different 
religions. The complex itself has a name and a known boundary, but the actual 
buildings are named differently. They're buddhist and shinto buildings (temples 
and pagodas), "gates", as well as several shrines to different deities, 
statues, a small garden, and a huge pedestrian area surrounding all the 
buildings. Almost any temple complex will have an "official" shop to buy 
reglious trinkets and seals directly from the temple, so there is some kind of 
gift shop tag there as well. 

This is on a single landuse=religious. All the different buildings themselves 
are individual POWs with different names and religion=*, and includes the 
pathway leading up from the temple entrance (a giant "gate" on the main street, 
the official temple entrance. 

3)

 I teach at a private buddhist school. It is administrated by a large temple in 
town. The temple grounds are adjacent to, yet completely separate from the 
school. The school grounds are not used for religious services (beyond prayers 
that all religious schools do), and the school is open to all people to attend, 
and a couple thousand kids (totally unaffiliated with the temple itself) attend 
school there. 

This is a high school with 2 main buildings and two gymnasiums, and a separate 
middle school across the street with 2 main buildings. There is no POW in the 
schools, as they are not temples. 

The schools sit on amenity=school.
The temples across the street and across the river sit on landuse=religious. 

~~~

There are going to be facilities operated on church grounds that are there to 
support the church. These may be a small nursury school or shop selling 
trinkets, or the church office *in support of the church itself* But it is all 
on a single landuse. Conversely, because of history, some separate religious 
facilities were forced to share land, leading to complexes where many POWs 
share a single named facility. 

Landuse=religious covers the simple idea of the land a church or religious 
building sits on and the grass and parking lot around it (like a churchyard), a 
larger grounds where adjacent buildings and amenities are in support of the 
main church building (a playground or outdoor event space), and a large 
multi-building complex where many functions commonly found in a single church 
building are broken up by function (office, kitchen, preschool, etc) - but 
still exist on a single named landuse and support the main religious building. 
It also works where many POWs share a common facility. It is not meant to be a 
substitute  for operator. 

Disneyland sits on a single landuse, with kitchens, machine shops, garbage 
handling facilities, day care, security offices, and even train stations - all 
on a single "amusement park" area because all of those facilities support the 
park and sit on a single named landuse. 

The disney store in a mall is merely a
operated by disney,  just like my middle school is operated by the temple. 

The same differences can be seen in religious facilities as well.

Javbw

> On Aug 21, 2015, at 7:53 PM, Andreas Goss  wrote:
> 
> In first though landuse=religious was supposed to be for all religious 
> institution and include more than a church yard.
> 
> Now I read...
> 
>> landuse=religious is specifically meant for the area used by a religious 
>> facility and it's supporting or directly related amenities used for 
>> practicing the religion - not merely land that happens to be owned by a 
>> religious entity. Likewise, Facilities such asamenity=school o

Re: [Tagging] Opening hours specification

[Ruben Maes]

Friday 21 August 2015 13:29:37, Simon Poole:
> BTW while it is still work in progress (now mainly because the android
> UI isn't finished yet)  
> https://github.com/simonpoole/OpeningHoursParser is a JavaCC based
> parser which attempts to implement the full spec, undoubtedly I've
> probably missed one or two special cases, but it is fairly complete.
> 
> It currently successfully parses 108'455 of 122'100 test strings (with
> some relaxation of rules) of those that fail 10'569 seem to be valid
> lexical errors and a large part of the remaining errors seem to have
> other issues. The test strings were extracted from the OSM database
> (nodes only).

Cool. Maybe OsmAnd could implement it in the future.

> As you say the specification itself is overly complicated (the
> "optional" colon is not really a problem, except that it is not really
> clear where it is allowed, there is some further similar fuzziness wrt
> comments) and definitely shouldn't have more stuff added to it (with
> perhaps the exceptions of adding further variable dates and similar things).

There should be an easy to understand guide, that's meant for mappers and not 
only for developers. I've written a tutorial for the basics[1] but everything 
should be described clearly (not necessarily example-based).

Because I know that by saying "there should be" on the mailing lists nothing 
will happen, I created a draft in my userspace[2]. I invite everyone that is 
interested in clearing this mess to join me. You can just change the page, no 
need to ask me for permission.

There is too much information on the page, so I moved some content to subpages.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/Tutorial
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:M!dgard/Key:opening_hours

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[Warin]

On 21/08/2015 9:28 PM, Craig Allan wrote:


type=husainiya
type=hussainia
type=ashurkhana
type=imambargah
*
*I am a little concerned that there are different terms for the 
amenity in different countries.
We try to use English terms where possible, but I doubt its possible 
in this case.

So I accept an Arabic term, but which one...
Is there one spelling or one term which the entire Islamic world would 
understand? I need help on this.

On the other hand, close enough is acceptable.



You remind me of T.E. Lawrence book 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom" ...
the proof writes complained
"Feisal is /spelled/ Faysul at random sometimes, for example; Jidda is 
Jeddah, " ... and many more examples...
His response was less than helpfull .. something along the lines of "I 
would have spelt them more numerous ways if I had the time."
He was demonstrating the less than precise interpretation from arabic to 
engish at the time.


---
You may find that in different countries the terms reflect the 
differences in the amenity. Thus the different terms may well be correct.
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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours specification

[Robin Schneider]

On 21.08.2015 13:29, Simon Poole wrote:
> 
> BTW while it is still work in progress (now mainly because the android
> UI isn't finished yet)  
> https://github.com/simonpoole/OpeningHoursParser is a JavaCC based
> parser which attempts to implement the full spec, undoubtedly I've
> probably missed one or two special cases, but it is fairly complete.
> 
> It currently successfully parses 108'455 of 122'100 test strings (with
> some relaxation of rules) of those that fail 10'569 seem to be valid
> lexical errors and a large part of the remaining errors seem to have
> other issues. The test strings were extracted from the OSM database
> (nodes only).

Nice. Was not aware of this. I also tried to get an opening_hours parser
"ported" to Android. Still alpha. https://github.com/ypid/ComplexAlarm

> 
> As you say the specification itself is overly complicated (the
> "optional" colon is not really a problem, except that it is not really
> clear where it is allowed, there is some further similar fuzziness wrt
> comments) and definitely shouldn't have more stuff added to it (with
> perhaps the exceptions of adding further variable dates and similar things).
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 21.08.2015 um 12:36 schrieb Ruben Maes:
>> Friday 21 August 2015 11:48:49, panierav...@riseup.net:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I recently released a new version of YoHours, a website which allows
>>> everyone to create and view opening hours in the OSM syntax. It now
>>> supports seasons-dependent hours (month, week, day, holiday selectors). 
>>>
>>> It's available here:
>>> http://github.pavie.info/yohours/ 
>>>
>>> The code is available on GitHub: 
>>> https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/tree/master/yohours
>>> [1] 
>>>
>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know :) 
>>>
>>> Cordially, 
>>>
>>> PanierAvide. 
>>>  
>>>
>>> Links:
>>> --
>>> [1]
>>> https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/tree/master/yohours
>> I opened an issue[1] on this GitHub project, because it puts a colon after 
>> week, month and monthday selectors.
>> PanierAvide replied that the specification allows an "optional separator for 
>> readability"[2]. Indeed, when you read the overly complicated and totally 
>> not mapper-focused specification, you can see
>> [  ] [  ] [  ] [ 
>>  ]
>>
>> Whose idea was this? It's already complicated enough that you don't have to 
>> add *optional* separators for supposed readability.
>> IMO it's just fine without them.
>>
>> PS: I always follow the time domains proposal[3]. It's clear and it's 
>> compatible with the other specification AFAIK.
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/issues/1
>> [2] 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification#separator_for_readability
>> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains is just an
proposal. It is nice and compact but also partly outdated and not approved.

The optional colon is a trade-off. It was made optional by me because I forked
opening_hours.js from AMDmi3 and added support for all opening_hours features to
it. AMDmi3 did not accept an colon. The other implementation from Netzwolf did
not accept opening_hours values without colon …

https://github.com/AMDmi3/opening_hours.js/issues/19
https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/issues/1

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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours specification

[Simon Poole]

BTW while it is still work in progress (now mainly because the android
UI isn't finished yet)  
https://github.com/simonpoole/OpeningHoursParser is a JavaCC based
parser which attempts to implement the full spec, undoubtedly I've
probably missed one or two special cases, but it is fairly complete.

It currently successfully parses 108'455 of 122'100 test strings (with
some relaxation of rules) of those that fail 10'569 seem to be valid
lexical errors and a large part of the remaining errors seem to have
other issues. The test strings were extracted from the OSM database
(nodes only).

As you say the specification itself is overly complicated (the
"optional" colon is not really a problem, except that it is not really
clear where it is allowed, there is some further similar fuzziness wrt
comments) and definitely shouldn't have more stuff added to it (with
perhaps the exceptions of adding further variable dates and similar things).

Simon

Am 21.08.2015 um 12:36 schrieb Ruben Maes:
> Friday 21 August 2015 11:48:49, panierav...@riseup.net:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I recently released a new version of YoHours, a website which allows
>> everyone to create and view opening hours in the OSM syntax. It now
>> supports seasons-dependent hours (month, week, day, holiday selectors). 
>>
>> It's available here:
>> http://github.pavie.info/yohours/ 
>>
>> The code is available on GitHub: 
>> https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/tree/master/yohours
>> [1] 
>>
>> If you have any suggestions, let me know :) 
>>
>> Cordially, 
>>
>> PanierAvide. 
>>  
>>
>> Links:
>> --
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/tree/master/yohours
> I opened an issue[1] on this GitHub project, because it puts a colon after 
> week, month and monthday selectors.
> PanierAvide replied that the specification allows an "optional separator for 
> readability"[2]. Indeed, when you read the overly complicated and totally not 
> mapper-focused specification, you can see
> [  ] [  ] [  ] [ 
>  ]
>
> Whose idea was this? It's already complicated enough that you don't have to 
> add *optional* separators for supposed readability.
> IMO it's just fine without them.
>
> PS: I always follow the time domains proposal[3]. It's clear and it's 
> compatible with the other specification AFAIK.
>
> [1] https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/issues/1
> [2] 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification#separator_for_readability
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[Craig Allan]

Landuse=religious is not quite right, since the hussainia is more a
cultural event than anything religious.

I think I would prefer a neutral terms for the amenity (yes, its an
amenity) like

amenity=community_centre (Description A place mostly used
for local events, festivities and group activities. )

Nonetheless, an area of landuse=religious could include an
amenity=community_centre

It is a special kind of community centre, which is covered by the key
'type'.

type=husainiya
type=hussainia
type=ashurkhana
type=imambargah
*
*I am a little concerned that there are different terms for the amenity
in different countries.
We try to use English terms where possible, but I doubt its possible in
this case.
So I accept an Arabic term, but which one...
Is there one spelling or one term which the entire Islamic world would
understand? I need help on this.
On the other hand, close enough is acceptable.


OSM is liberal on tagging rules but I would modify the proposed keys.  
I'd rather see the existing keys 'event', 'access' and 'frequency' being
re-used here.

'event' key is used for earthquakes mainly, but it seems to work for
this purpose.

'access' is used about 10 million times as a key, so its very standard. 
I'm proposing three new values, but they are useful for some other
amenities and places of worship too

'frequency' is used about 1.2 million times, so its standard too.
"intermittent" and "weekly" already exist as values. "allyear" is new.

So this is what I would support.

amenity=community_centre
type=husainiya
event=muharram
access=maleonly | femaleonly  | maleandfemale
frequency= intermittent | weekly| allyear

CA


On 2015-08-21 07:12 AM, Andreas Goss wrote:
>> If so, you can use landuse=religious on the entire area
>
> God that tag is so * stupid. I still don't understand why we let a
> dozen people push this tag when nobody knows how to use it not even
> those who suggestet it thmselves. Half of them just seem to be a
> replacement for church yard...

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=religious & Monastic schools

[phil]

Precinct is used around cathedrals, does that work?

Phil ( trigpoint)

On Fri Aug 21 11:53:52 2015 GMT+0100, Andreas Goss wrote:
> In first though landuse=religious was supposed to be for all religious 
> institution and include more than a church yard.
> 
> Now I read...
> 
> > landuse=religious is specifically meant for the area used by a religious 
> > facility and it's supporting or directly related amenities used for 
> > practicing the religion - not merely land that happens to be owned by a 
> > religious entity. Likewise, Facilities such asamenity=school or 
> > amenity=hospital that are not part of a primarily religious complex, or are 
> > not primarily a place of worship, but merely operated by a religious entity 
> > are represented with different tagging schemes
> 
> Does this mean a school run by a monastry even on their grounds would 
> not be included in landuse=religious?
> 
> Is this this now really just become a replacement for churchyard to 
> include more religions? Bascially limited to the area around a place of 
> worship?
> __
> openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours specification

[PanierAvide]

The interest of this overly complicated specification is that it makes 
developers life easy ;) Obviously, it has to stay in phase with the way 
opening_hours is really used. So if the separator is not used, it will 
be removed from YoHours. Note that this optional separator is also 
readable by "opening_hours evaluation tool" [1], which seems to be a 
reference.


[1] http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/


Le 21/08/2015 12:36, Ruben Maes a écrit :

I opened an issue[1] on this GitHub project, because it puts a colon after 
week, month and monthday selectors.
PanierAvide replied that the specification allows an "optional separator for 
readability"[2]. Indeed, when you read the overly complicated and totally not 
mapper-focused specification, you can see
[  ] [  ] [  ] [ 
 ]

Whose idea was this? It's already complicated enough that you don't have to add 
*optional* separators for supposed readability.
IMO it's just fine without them.

PS: I always follow the time domains proposal[3]. It's clear and it's 
compatible with the other specification AFAIK.

[1] https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/issues/1
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification#separator_for_readability
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains



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[Tagging] landuse=religious & Monastic schools

[Andreas Goss]

In first though landuse=religious was supposed to be for all religious 
institution and include more than a church yard.


Now I read...


landuse=religious is specifically meant for the area used by a religious 
facility and it's supporting or directly related amenities used for practicing 
the religion - not merely land that happens to be owned by a religious entity. 
Likewise, Facilities such asamenity=school or amenity=hospital that are not 
part of a primarily religious complex, or are not primarily a place of worship, 
but merely operated by a religious entity are represented with different 
tagging schemes


Does this mean a school run by a monastry even on their grounds would 
not be included in landuse=religious?


Is this this now really just become a replacement for churchyard to 
include more religions? Bascially limited to the area around a place of 
worship?

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[Tagging] Opening hours specification (was: [talk] YoHours: opening_hours viewer and editor)

[Ruben Maes]

Friday 21 August 2015 11:48:49, panierav...@riseup.net:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I recently released a new version of YoHours, a website which allows
> everyone to create and view opening hours in the OSM syntax. It now
> supports seasons-dependent hours (month, week, day, holiday selectors). 
> 
> It's available here:
> http://github.pavie.info/yohours/ 
> 
> The code is available on GitHub: 
> https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/tree/master/yohours
> [1] 
> 
> If you have any suggestions, let me know :) 
> 
> Cordially, 
> 
> PanierAvide. 
>  
> 
> Links:
> --
> [1]
> https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/tree/master/yohours

I opened an issue[1] on this GitHub project, because it puts a colon after 
week, month and monthday selectors.
PanierAvide replied that the specification allows an "optional separator for 
readability"[2]. Indeed, when you read the overly complicated and totally not 
mapper-focused specification, you can see
[  ] [  ] [  ] [ 
 ]

Whose idea was this? It's already complicated enough that you don't have to add 
*optional* separators for supposed readability.
IMO it's just fine without them.

PS: I always follow the time domains proposal[3]. It's clear and it's 
compatible with the other specification AFAIK.

[1] https://github.com/PanierAvide/panieravide.github.io/issues/1
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours/specification#separator_for_readability
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[Andreas Goss]

On 8/21/15 10:19 , John Willis wrote:

When you live in places that don't have churches - churchyard is incorrect - 
especially when **it isn't mapping a yard**.

I have temple grounds here. So churchyard is also not a neutral tag, therefore 
it is a garbage tag. It should be depreciated and erased.


Then we should maybe come up with a tag that covers the area around a 
place of worship. Sacred ground or something like that. I'm no saying 
churchyard was the perfect tag, but at lest it was very clear what it 
meant when used.




And there are many complexes that have many many buildings associated with, yet 
are not a POW, so mapping it as a landuse - like we do for 
residential/commercial/retail/industrial facilities ***is more consistent***.


Sure, the problem is that landuse=religious will often clash with those. 
What if you have a brewery run by monks? What if you have housing that's 
owned by the church? In Germany the church is the largest private land 
owner, they own a lot of commercial building etc. are those then all 
landuse=religious?


Also if I have church do I now have to put landuse religious around it 
every time?



The front lawn in front of an industrial complex is on landuse=industrial. Same 
with its office, parking lots, storage sheds, and everything else that isn't a 
drop forge.

The exact same reasoning applies - and applies consistently - to a religious 
complex that is more than just a church.

Would you be complaining that a parking lot for the industrial drop forge - sitting on 
the named landuse for the industrial facility- isn't right because "that parking lot 
is not a drop forge! What is the parking lot making?  It isn't a factory!!"

Thats what I hear when people complain about landuse=religious - "are they 
worshipping a parking lot?? So stupid!"


No, my problem is much more when for example the church owns some 
offices somwhere does it then make that landuse=religious? Or as pointed 
out above if to landuses are possible, what do I use? The problem is 
landuse=religious isn't just expanding a bit around a place of worship 
like for example amenity=school/university. The way the tag is defined 
now I is supposed to be used every time there is something religious. 
Which is not really that good on the ground information and in my 
opinion not usefull when it comes to the church owning commercial, 
industial or residential buildings.


Catholic church owns apartmentcomplex in the middle of the citiy: 
landuse=religious o_O



So myopic.

Don't complain about

A) what you don't need, yet others do.

B) tags meant for a different usage in a different part of the world that may 
not apply to you and your corner of the globe.


A lot of these tags are used in Germany and close countries like the UK 
or Poland. So yeah I think I have a pretty good understanding when I 
look how they are used and how it is explained. And just looking at a 
few I would say 90% are used as what I would call church yard.



And religious facilities may have a very different style, types of buildings, 
and layout than your bog standard church.

Being inflexible enough to not get that only makes you look stupid, not the tag.


Being so fexible that the tag means nothing doesn't help either.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Husainiya

[John Willis]

When you live in places that don't have churches - churchyard is incorrect - 
especially when **it isn't mapping a yard**. 

I have temple grounds here. So churchyard is also not a neutral tag, therefore 
it is a garbage tag. It should be depreciated and erased. 

And there are many complexes that have many many buildings associated with, yet 
are not a POW, so mapping it as a landuse - like we do for 
residential/commercial/retail/industrial facilities ***is more consistent***.

The front lawn in front of an industrial complex is on landuse=industrial. Same 
with its office, parking lots, storage sheds, and everything else that isn't a 
drop forge. 

The exact same reasoning applies - and applies consistently - to a religious 
complex that is more than just a church.

Would you be complaining that a parking lot for the industrial drop forge - 
sitting on the named landuse for the industrial facility- isn't right because 
"that parking lot is not a drop forge! What is the parking lot making?  It 
isn't a factory!!"

Thats what I hear when people complain about landuse=religious - "are they 
worshipping a parking lot?? So stupid!"

So myopic. 

Don't complain about 

A) what you don't need, yet others do. 

B) tags meant for a different usage in a different part of the world that may 
not apply to you and your corner of the globe. 

And religious facilities may have a very different style, types of buildings, 
and layout than your bog standard church. 

Being inflexible enough to not get that only makes you look stupid, not the 
tag. 

Javbw. 


On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Andreas Goss  wrote:

>> If so, you can use landuse=religious on the entire area
> 
> God that tag is so * stupid. I still don't understand why we let a dozen 
> people push this tag when nobody knows how to use it not even those who 
> suggestet it thmselves. Half of them just seem to be a replacement for church 
> yard...
> 
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