Re: [Tagging] Busways

[Mark Wagner]

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:42:47 +0100
Tijmen Stam  wrote:

> On 03-11-16 11:55, Yves wrote:
> > @Tijmen, IMHO there is very little chance to convince people to
> > change the way we tag highways because of buses using them or not.
> > Yves  
> 
> This saddens me, because I don't propose to "change the way of
> tagging", but to "formalize the current main practice of tagging".
> As I have shown, highway=service is used about 7 times as much as 
> highway=unclassified, thereby diversifying the ways of tagging
> similar situations.

How sure are you that the situations are similar?  A bus-only driveway
giving access to a transit center and a bus-only road through a city
are both "access=no, psv=designated", but they're not similar sorts of
things.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Nov 5, 2016, at 20:09, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> The defacto-languages-tag would likely need some threshold to make sense,
> or any 2 strangers living temporary in an area would add another language
> to it and we'd end up with most of all existing languages spoken "de facto"
> anywhere on the planet. Adding just the majority languages doesn't seem
> right (respect for minorities) either, but we will have to decide what
> "significant" means in your sentence.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
As most definitions, I think the different local communities should define when 
a group is ‘significant’ enough to be entered into “de facto” languages. In my 
personal opinion, it should be the languages of population majorities, 
languages to minority groups that belong to the area (native populations). I 
think it will be wrong to enforce a fixed rule (languages spoken by more than 
30% of local population), because in many areas native groups that 
traditionally have belonged to the area might have been pushed below 5% of 
general population, but still recognised as a regional minority.

Aun Johnsen
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Nov 5, 2016, at 20:09, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> This is kind of straying, but 'dependent nations' are a case that is not
> well handled at all. There are a number of cases (e.g. most Native American
> reservations) where all parties agree on the boundaries - at least of the
> current state of control, if not the 'rightful' borders, but most
> emphatically do not agree on the political status of the territory.
> 
> A typically complex case is Ahkwesáhsne. It is one of several recognized
> territories of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation. It spans the border between the
> USA and Canada. The US portion is known as the St. Regis Mohawk
> Reservation. It has some of the attributes of a country - for instance, its
> citizens are free to travel within its territory without clearing US or
> Canadian customs and immigration. (Other USAians and Canadians do not have
> that privilege.) It has three governments: the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne
> (a representative democracy elected from the Canadian portion of the area),
> the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe (a constitutional republic and the nominal
> government of the US portion), and the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs (the
> traditional and religious government of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation), which
> many residents see as the legitimate government of the nation. The MNCC is
> not recognized by either the US or Canada, but in a 1948 election, the
> traditional chiefs chosen by the Akwesasnro:non 83-1 over an elected
> system. (The lack of a European-style constitutional framework impedes
> recognition.)
> 
> The Kanien'kehá:ka Nation, even among the First Peoples, is a dependent
> state. It is one of six members of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which is
> the nation with which most Akwesasnro:non would identify. Each of the other
> nations retains territories with some sort of 'dependent nation' status in
> both the US and Canada. In some cases they are combined - the Six Nations
> of the Grand River reserve in Canada has residents belonging to each of the
> Haudenosaunee nations, plus a group of Delaware (Lenape). This reserve has
> nine official languages: the five Haudenosaunee languages, plus Tuscarora,
> Munsee, English and French.
> 
> The Haudenosaunee Confederacy has even more of the attributes of a nation.
> It issues its own passports (and there have been times at which they have
> even been accepted by other states, such as when it sent a delegation to
> the League of Nations in 1923). It fields an Olympic lacrosse team, and is
> generally recognized as a state in international lacrosse competitions.
> 
> In most cases, all agree on the current state of the borders of all of
> these reserves. But they largely go unmapped, because there's no agreement
> on what to call them. Whatever it is, it doesn't fit into a strict
> admin_level hierarchy, because they span multiple admin_level=2 nations,
> What is fundamentally wrong about our model is the assumption that "every
> piece of land (except possibly Antarctica) is in one and only one nation."
> or that "a dependent nation is associated with one and only one parent
> state," or "the citizens of a nation share a common language."
> 
> We would do well to map agreed-on borders and tag things as best we can.
> Right now, we seem to be frozen on mapping First Nations boundaries.
A little TL;DR

I think tagging official and de facto languages will help raise the importance 
of these First Nation areas. The cases of First Nations is particularly 
complicated because they often are not recognised as independent nations and 
therefor not fit under the admin_level=2 tagging scheme. Some of these might 
fit into admin_level=3 or other sub-national divisions, while others not. At 
least a language tagging scheme will help highlight some of the issues around 
these areas.

Besides, all of Antarctica are claimed by different nations, though under the 
Antarctic Treat, such claims does not impose sovereignty, and the same plot of 
land might have claims from more than one country.

Aun Johnsen


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Kevin Kenny]

This is kind of straying, but 'dependent nations' are a case that is not
well handled at all. There are a number of cases (e.g. most Native American
reservations) where all parties agree on the boundaries - at least of the
current state of control, if not the 'rightful' borders, but most
emphatically do not agree on the political status of the territory.

A typically complex case is Ahkwesáhsne. It is one of several recognized
territories of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation. It spans the border between the
USA and Canada. The US portion is known as the St. Regis Mohawk
Reservation. It has some of the attributes of a country - for instance, its
citizens are free to travel within its territory without clearing US or
Canadian customs and immigration. (Other USAians and Canadians do not have
that privilege.) It has three governments: the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne
(a representative democracy elected from the Canadian portion of the area),
the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe (a constitutional republic and the nominal
government of the US portion), and the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs (the
traditional and religious government of the Kanien'kehá:ka Nation), which
many residents see as the legitimate government of the nation. The MNCC is
not recognized by either the US or Canada, but in a 1948 election, the
traditional chiefs chosen by the Akwesasnro:non 83-1 over an elected
system. (The lack of a European-style constitutional framework impedes
recognition.)

The Kanien'kehá:ka Nation, even among the First Peoples, is a dependent
state. It is one of six members of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which is
the nation with which most Akwesasnro:non would identify. Each of the other
nations retains territories with some sort of 'dependent nation' status in
both the US and Canada. In some cases they are combined - the Six Nations
of the Grand River reserve in Canada has residents belonging to each of the
Haudenosaunee nations, plus a group of Delaware (Lenape). This reserve has
nine official languages: the five Haudenosaunee languages, plus Tuscarora,
Munsee, English and French.

The Haudenosaunee Confederacy has even more of the attributes of a nation.
It issues its own passports (and there have been times at which they have
even been accepted by other states, such as when it sent a delegation to
the League of Nations in 1923). It fields an Olympic lacrosse team, and is
generally recognized as a state in international lacrosse competitions.

In most cases, all agree on the current state of the borders of all of
these reserves. But they largely go unmapped, because there's no agreement
on what to call them. Whatever it is, it doesn't fit into a strict
admin_level hierarchy, because they span multiple admin_level=2 nations,
What is fundamentally wrong about our model is the assumption that "every
piece of land (except possibly Antarctica) is in one and only one nation."
or that "a dependent nation is associated with one and only one parent
state," or "the citizens of a nation share a common language."

We would do well to map agreed-on borders and tag things as best we can.
Right now, we seem to be frozen on mapping First Nations boundaries.

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Richard Welty 
wrote:

> On 11/5/16 10:58 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages"
> > can be set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined
> > English as their official language).
> > It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language
> > in the USA, even if there is no law that states this, because all
> > legislation and jurisdiction (?) takes place in English (I am not sure
> > about this, maybe Native American Reservations etc. have different
> > languages?).
> i'm sure the tribes probably regard their own languages as "official".
> given
> the peculiar status of the reservations (sovereign except for when congress
> decides they're not) i can't say i really know how that issue resolves.
> (it also
> makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)
>
> richard
>
> --
> rwe...@averillpark.net
>  Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
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Re: [Tagging] Busways

[Warin]

On 06-Nov-16 02:42 AM, Tijmen Stam wrote:

On 03-11-16 11:55, Yves wrote:

@Tijmen, IMHO there is very little chance to convince people to change
the way we tag highways because of buses using them or not.
Yves


This saddens me, because I don't propose to "change the way of 
tagging", but to "formalize the current main practice of tagging".
As I have shown, highway=service is used about 7 times as much as 
highway=unclassified, thereby diversifying the ways of tagging similar 
situations.


Use does not make it 'correct'. sport=football and sport=hockey are 
'in_use' but they are not 'correct'.


For me 'service' does not denote 'bus' .. nor is it excluded. However I 
would not expect long lengths of roads classified as 'service'.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Warin]

On 06-Nov-16 03:49 AM, Aun Johnsen wrote:

On Nov 5, 2016, at 14:37, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

Dave F wrote:

What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?

Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
and examples.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language

An official language is a language that is given a special legal status [...] the term 
"official language" does not typically refer to the language used by a people 
or country, but by its government.


from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_facto, please appreciate the
provided sentence for use case.

Adjective. de facto ‎(not comparable)
In fact or in practice; in actual use or existence, regardless of official or 
legal status.
(Often opposed to de jure.)
Although the United States currently has no official language, it is largely 
monolingual with English being the de facto national language.

The contrary of 'de facto' is 'de jure'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_jure

Adjective. de jure ‎(not comparable)
By right, in accordance with the law, legally.

Another good reading is the wikipedia page, particularly the
introduction at the top
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
and the part on national languages, quite relevant here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto#National_languages





Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local
community"

Indeed. And when it gets out of control, global community and DataWG
can intervene if necessary.

But that is not a reason, quite the contrary, to start another war
between local community and remote/global community. Especially when
there is no disagreement locally. Even more so when there was
disagreement locally and it is settled now.


-- altho

We could add (on any admin_level applicable) the tags official_languages (for 
official languages) and de_facto_languages or common_languages for the de facto 
languages in the area. This way, local communities that speak a different 
language than the official language will be identified, and this can be 
searchable in some way. I would suggest that ISO codes are used for the values 
of these tags.

Example:
Norway: official_languages=no;nn
Due to the different dialects (no/nn), some (many) municipalities have chosen 
one of these, admin_level=7 + official_language=no
Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their Samii 
dialect, and a number of these have included this in official languages (not 
familiar with ISO code for the Samii dialects)

USA: common_languages=en, with certain areas having common_language=es, or 
other that might be actual. Some native reserves would have 
common_language={iso code of tribal language}

Any thoughts?



The ISO aus code may contain over 250 languages ... while many of these 
can be understood by their neighbours .. things do drift across the 
country. There maybe a need to have additions for these within OSM 
tagging in the future where more detail could be added to the map.
See https://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/family   I can find no code 
for these .. so at this time it may need to be stated as the actual 
language/tribe name where known e.g. name:aus:mindi=*
I don't see this as having any impact on the present country name 
discussion, at least at the present level.




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 17:49 GMT+01:00 Aun Johnsen :

> Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their
> Samii dialect,



The defacto-languages-tag would likely need some threshold to make sense,
or any 2 strangers living temporary in an area would add another language
to it and we'd end up with most of all existing languages spoken "de facto"
anywhere on the planet. Adding just the majority languages doesn't seem
right (respect for minorities) either, but we will have to decide what
"significant" means in your sentence.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Nov 5, 2016, at 14:37, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> Dave F wrote:
>> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?
> 
> Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
> and examples.
> 
> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language
>> An official language is a language that is given a special legal status 
>> [...] the term "official language" does not typically refer to the language 
>> used by a people or country, but by its government.
> 
> 
> from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_facto, please appreciate the
> provided sentence for use case.
>> Adjective. de facto ‎(not comparable)
>> In fact or in practice; in actual use or existence, regardless of official 
>> or legal status.
>> (Often opposed to de jure.)
>> Although the United States currently has no official language, it is largely 
>> monolingual with English being the de facto national language.
> 
> The contrary of 'de facto' is 'de jure'
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_jure
>> Adjective. de jure ‎(not comparable)
>> By right, in accordance with the law, legally.
> 
> Another good reading is the wikipedia page, particularly the
> introduction at the top
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
> and the part on national languages, quite relevant here.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto#National_languages
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local
>> community"
> 
> Indeed. And when it gets out of control, global community and DataWG
> can intervene if necessary.
> 
> But that is not a reason, quite the contrary, to start another war
> between local community and remote/global community. Especially when
> there is no disagreement locally. Even more so when there was
> disagreement locally and it is settled now.
> 
> 
> -- altho
We could add (on any admin_level applicable) the tags official_languages (for 
official languages) and de_facto_languages or common_languages for the de facto 
languages in the area. This way, local communities that speak a different 
language than the official language will be identified, and this can be 
searchable in some way. I would suggest that ISO codes are used for the values 
of these tags.

Example:
Norway: official_languages=no;nn
Due to the different dialects (no/nn), some (many) municipalities have chosen 
one of these, admin_level=7 + official_language=no
Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their Samii 
dialect, and a number of these have included this in official languages (not 
familiar with ISO code for the Samii dialects)

USA: common_languages=en, with certain areas having common_language=es, or 
other that might be actual. Some native reserves would have 
common_language={iso code of tribal language}

Any thoughts?

Aun Johnsen
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 17:29 GMT+01:00 Richard Welty :

> (it also
> makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)
>


they're likely not
https://twitter.com/ziyatong/status/794325844751765504
https://twitter.com/ziyatong/status/794280881418620928
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Richard Welty]

On 11/5/16 10:58 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages"
> can be set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined
> English as their official language).
> It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language
> in the USA, even if there is no law that states this, because all
> legislation and jurisdiction (?) takes place in English (I am not sure
> about this, maybe Native American Reservations etc. have different
> languages?).
i'm sure the tribes probably regard their own languages as "official". given
the peculiar status of the reservations (sovereign except for when congress
decides they're not) i can't say i really know how that issue resolves.
(it also
makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)

richard

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Re: [Tagging] Busways

[Yves]

In fact,  there is no need to document any special values of highway as far as 
buses are concerned !?
Buses can drive on whatever highway type their operators and drivers may see 
fit. 
Yves 

Le 5 novembre 2016 16:42:47 GMT+01:00, Tijmen Stam  a 
écrit :
>On 03-11-16 11:55, Yves wrote:
>> @Tijmen, IMHO there is very little chance to convince people to
>change
>> the way we tag highways because of buses using them or not.
>> Yves
>
>This saddens me, because I don't propose to "change the way of
>tagging", 
>but to "formalize the current main practice of tagging".
>As I have shown, highway=service is used about 7 times as much as 
>highway=unclassified, thereby diversifying the ways of tagging similar 
>situations.
>
>Tijmen
>
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Re: [Tagging] Busways

[Tijmen Stam]

On 03-11-16 11:55, Yves wrote:

@Tijmen, IMHO there is very little chance to convince people to change
the way we tag highways because of buses using them or not.
Yves


This saddens me, because I don't propose to "change the way of tagging", 
but to "formalize the current main practice of tagging".
As I have shown, highway=service is used about 7 times as much as 
highway=unclassified, thereby diversifying the ways of tagging similar 
situations.


Tijmen

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 14:14 GMT+01:00 althio :

> > Although the United States currently has no official language, it is
> largely monolingual with English being the de facto national language.



interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages" can be
set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined English as their
official language).
It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language in
the USA, even if there is no law that states this, because all legislation
and jurisdiction (?) takes place in English (I am not sure about this,
maybe Native American Reservations etc. have different languages?).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[althio]

Dave F wrote:
> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?

Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
and examples.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language
> An official language is a language that is given a special legal status [...] 
> the term "official language" does not typically refer to the language used by 
> a people or country, but by its government.


from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_facto, please appreciate the
provided sentence for use case.
> Adjective. de facto ‎(not comparable)
> In fact or in practice; in actual use or existence, regardless of official or 
> legal status.
> (Often opposed to de jure.)
> Although the United States currently has no official language, it is largely 
> monolingual with English being the de facto national language.

The contrary of 'de facto' is 'de jure'
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de_jure
> Adjective. de jure ‎(not comparable)
> By right, in accordance with the law, legally.

Another good reading is the wikipedia page, particularly the
introduction at the top
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
and the part on national languages, quite relevant here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto#National_languages




> Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local
> community"

Indeed. And when it gets out of control, global community and DataWG
can intervene if necessary.

But that is not a reason, quite the contrary, to start another war
between local community and remote/global community. Especially when
there is no disagreement locally. Even more so when there was
disagreement locally and it is settled now.


-- althio

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-11-05 12:46 GMT+01:00 Dave F :

> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?



"official name" can have several meanings, but is generally referring to
text on dead tree. It can be found in laws/constitutions (typically in the
first or an early paragraph), treaties, can be released by government
agencies and offices (e.g. statistical agency, cadastre, ...). It can be
recognized (or the entity that has released the text can be recognized) by
international or national organizations, neighbouring (and other) countries
in multilateral or bilateral agreements and treaties, etc.
"de facto" languages are the languages spoken by the people living in a
certain area. They can be the same as the official languages or not.
"de facto local names" can be the names with which local people refer to
the places, and/or can be the names found on the ground. These do not
necessarily have to be officially recognized by any authority.
Additionally there are places where several competing authorities claim to
be authoritative.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names

[Dave F]

On 04/11/2016 10:30, althio wrote:

Hi Sven and list,

Sven Geggus wrote:

What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official 
langages.

I don't consider it valid.
I prefer the on-the-ground rule, de facto languages, choice by local community.


What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?

Wars have been fought over disagreements between "choices by local 
community"


Dave F.

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