Re: [Tagging] landuse=logging

[Dave Swarthout]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Max  wrote:

I thought that this is exactly what a landuse=forest is. A plantation of
> trees to be cut down. The other thing is natural=wood


+1

Logging is one of the activities associated with a wooded area managed to
produce wood for lumber, chips, pulp, etc. Such areas are properly tagged
as landuse=forest.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=logging

[Max]

On 2017년 01월 05일 21:36, Volker Schmidt wrote:

Maybe landuse=logging is used to indicate a tree plantation for logging
as opposed to a forest where wood production is not the main purpose.


I thought that this is exactly what a landuse=forest is. A plantation of 
trees to be cut down. The other thing is natural=wood


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=logging

[Warin]

On 06-Jan-17 07:36 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
Maybe landuse=logging is used to indicate a tree plantation for 
logging as opposed to a forest where wood production is not the main 
purpose.


If you look at the wiki page for it (created June 2016 so fairly recent) 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dlogging


It may imply that logging is taking place, or has taken place .. it has 
sub tags of


 * logging
   
=clearcutting
   

   - all trees in an area are uniformly cut down;
 * logging
   
=selective_cutting
   

   - only some trees in an area are cut down (for example, sanitation
   cutting);
 * logging:start_date
   
=*
   - logging date (using the format -mm-dd).

I think this is not a tag nor a tagging scheme I would use - too time 
variable for me.


Possibly better to use a sub key under landuse=forest to indicate 
detailed use .. similar to landuse=orchard


produce=wood (pulp, lumber etc)

produce=rubber

produce=oil (tee tree, eucalyptus ..)

produce=multi ... better to do comma separated variables ... e.g. 
forest=wood,oil


To indicate current state?  then possibly activity?

activity=clearcutting

activity=selective_cutting

But I think this is like mapping the activity in an orchard, vine_yard 
etc .. activity=harvest,activity=pruning, activity=planting etc ... very 
detailed and time variable. If people want to do that .. fine, not 
something I'd do nor propose.


I have not looked as yet at the places using this tag. The number of 
uses is high for a tag that has only been described on the wiki for some 
8 months ... suspicious?


On 5 Jan 2017 9:22 p.m., "Martin Koppenhoefer" > wrote:




sent from a phone

> On 5 Jan 2017, at 20:30, Daniel Koć mailto:daniel@ko%C4%87.pl>> wrote:
>
> What are your propositions to fix it?


keep "logging" as a key and change landuse=logging to forest


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=logging

[Andy Townsend]

On 05/01/2017 19:30, Daniel Koć wrote:

Hi,

When I was looking at popular tags in OSM database I have found 
landuse=logging with 24k+ uses:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dlogging
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=landuse&value=logging

However after closer inspection it looks like it's rather forestry 
life-cycle property than landuse:


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2531

See also:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:landuse%3Dlogging

What are your propositions to fix it?

See also 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:wood#.D0.94.D0.B5.D0.B9.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D1.83.D1.8E.D1.89.D0.B8.D0.B5_.D1.83.D1.82.D0.BE.D1.87.D0.BD.D1.8F.D1.8E.D1.89.D0.B8.D0.B5_.D1.82.D0.B5.D0.B3.D0.B8_.D0.B2_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.82.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.BD.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.B5_.D0.B8.D0.BC.D0.B5.D0.BD_wood:


note that that's a Russian page that I don't think is translated into 
English - I found out about it via this diary comment:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/38527#comment34603

Whilst I'm not entirely convinced by everything there it does certainly 
address some of the problems that I find myself marking via notes (e.g. 
"this area has just been cleared").


Cheers,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] landuse=logging

[Volker Schmidt]

Maybe landuse=logging is used to indicate a tree plantation for logging as
opposed to a forest where wood production is not the main purpose.

On 5 Jan 2017 9:22 p.m., "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 5 Jan 2017, at 20:30, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> >
> > What are your propositions to fix it?
>
>
> keep "logging" as a key and change landuse=logging to forest
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=logging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5 Jan 2017, at 20:30, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> 
> What are your propositions to fix it?


keep "logging" as a key and change landuse=logging to forest 


cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] landuse=logging

[Daniel Koć]

Hi,

When I was looking at popular tags in OSM database I have found 
landuse=logging with 24k+ uses:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dlogging
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=landuse&value=logging

However after closer inspection it looks like it's rather forestry 
life-cycle property than landuse:


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2531

See also:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:landuse%3Dlogging

What are your propositions to fix it?

--
"A dragon lives forever but not so little boys" [L. Lipton]

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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Blake Girardot]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> 2017-01-05 13:13 GMT+01:00 Blake Girardot :
>>
>> Wait, what?
>>
>> The point of coworking spaces is that it is people from different
>> companies or independent contractors, consultants, etc are using a
>> shared space and resources.
>
>
>
> that's what I said, with other working places I was referring to places that
> are not _offices_
>

Ah, sorry, somehow I thought we had gotten this reversed.

Anyway, my vote is:

amenity=coworking_space

To my view, they are amenities for a city/community/neighborhood and
much more so an amenity than what we traditionally think of as an
office, although there is for sure a case for office=*.

But I have seen no discussion of why amenity=coworking_space, which is
what is in use now, is a problem worth introducing a significant
change to the existing system. The current tag seems to be working
fine. Is there a problem with it that suggests we should change?

cheers
blake

-- 

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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-01-05 13:13 GMT+01:00 Blake Girardot :

> Wait, what?
>
> The point of coworking spaces is that it is people from different
> companies or independent contractors, consultants, etc are using a
> shared space and resources.
>


that's what I said, with other working places I was referring to places
that are not _offices_

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Greg Troxel]

Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> writes:

>> Arguably, if the coworking space intened to accomodate professional
>> carpenters who worked for different companies, maybe that would be
>> coworking.  But really coworking is about something that feels like an
>> office with coworkers and support services, but is shared by poeple that
>> work for different companies or are perhaps self-employed.   To me, a
>> core part of coworking space is that most(?) of the people using it view
>> it as the physical location of their main employment.
>
> So cowork can only be done in an office?

Not strictly, but so far all places that I would call coworking are
offices.  And, there is a notion that one can do random computer stuff
with wifi/coffee/printer/conference room in a coworkin facility.  So a
place with 4 garage bays where independent car mechanics can sign up for
them could be coworking, but only if they are then doing this as a major
source of employment, vs hobby or occcasional extra thing.  Usually when
there is a spare bay and another mechanic works there, it's by
arrangement/invitation, and not anyone who asks, and there aren't posted
rates.

> From wikipedia "a style ofwork
>  that involves a shared
> working environment, often anoffice
> , and independent activity."
>
> " is also the social gathering of a group of people who are still working 
> independently"
>
> That would indicate it is not solely an office activity? And no
> necessarily work ... but a 'social gathering'?! Wikipedia!

What they are trying to say is that when you have a job in an office
with others, you go there to do your programming or whatever, and to be
able to talk to the other people who work for your company about work
things.  But you also talk to them about other things, and some of them
end up being your friends.  When you telecommute, you sit at home and
talk to your coworkers about work, but you don't run into them at the
coffee machine.  In a coworking space, you have people that don't work
for your company, but you all are in the office together. So it replace
the work-associated social connection that's missing; the fact that the
people work for other companies doesn't matter that much.

> cowork is not in my dictionary ..
>
> but on the oxford dic. website I find co-work
>
> "The use of an office or other working environment by people who are
> self-employed or working for different employers, typically so as to
> share equipment, ideas, and knowledge:  /‘the whole idea of co-working
> is to bring bright, creative people together and let the ideas
> collide’"/

I find that overly specific about purpose.  Often, as others have said,
it's about having shared networking, printers, a conference room you can
use when you need it, maybe a receptionist.  Stuff your company would do
if there were 20 of you, but is crazy for 1 or a few.

There is also the cross-fertilization notion, but I find most US
companies too paranoid for that.

> Note the "other working environment"//and no 'social gathering'.

Right - this is consistent with social being secondary, and being
work-social, not social-social :-)

> Work is done for payment.
>
> Hobbies are done for enjoyment, usually with no payment.
>
> I think that is the difference here .. is the word 'work'.
>
> I think the 'cowork' (or 'co-work') is too new and unfamiliar for me
> to comment further.

It's only in the last 10 years or so that it's sprung up in the US.
Typically in cities that have lots of startups and small companies.
I'd expect them in Boston, NY, San Francisco, Austin, and places like
that.  (I know we have them in Boston.)


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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Blake Girardot]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
> On 05.01.2017 10:31, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>>> On 5 Jan 2017, at 04:58, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>>>
>>> Coworking spaces are targeted towards white-collar office desk jobs
>>
>>
>>
>> +1, this is also what comes to my mind when I hear coworking. I propose to
>> use office=coworking for those that are offices, and if you come along a
>> different kind of place where people are working together without being in
>> the same company you'll have to invent a new tag for these particular
>> different kind of places, e.g. there's already something for collective
>> bicycle repair (where coworking isn't a typical term to refer to).
>
>
> However, using office=coworking blocks this key for a description what is
> being done in these offices. So it mixes values of describing the trade with
> how the work is organised.
>
> thus we could have:
>
> * office=graphics_design + coworking=yes
>   or even keep the amenity tag for the facility:
> * office=software_development + amenity=coworking(_space)
>

Just to again add my understanding here: Coworking spaces are usually
not activity specific, that is the point, they are a mix of folks
doing whatever it is they do, programming, design, etc.

office=graphics_design + coworking=yes does not make sense in the
context of actual co-working spaces. that is much closer to describing
how some graphic design firm is doing its office layout.

Yes, there might be some edge cases where a co-working space is
designed specifically for a particular trade like woodworking or metal
work, but as mentioned those are usually maker spaces. But any
coworking space that supports office work would usually support any
type of office work and would not say "only accountants can cowork
here"

cheers
blake


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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Blake Girardot]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>> On 5 Jan 2017, at 04:58, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>>
>> Coworking spaces are targeted towards white-collar office desk jobs
>
>
> +1, this is also what comes to my mind when I hear coworking. I propose to 
> use office=coworking for those that are offices, and if you come along a 
> different kind of place where people are working together without being in 
> the same company you'll have to invent a new tag for these particular 
> different kind of places, e.g. there's already something for collective 
> bicycle repair (where coworking isn't a typical term to refer to).
>

Wait, what?

The point of coworking spaces is that it is people from different
companies or independent contractors, consultants, etc are using a
shared space and resources.

If everyone is coworking in a shared space for the same company that
is just a regular office.


-- 

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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-01-05 11:59 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> However, using office=coworking blocks this key for a description what is
> being done in these offices. So it mixes values of describing the trade
> with how the work is organised.
>
> thus we could have:
>
> * office=graphics_design + coworking=yes
>   or even keep the amenity tag for the facility:
> * office=software_development + amenity=coworking(_space)
>


what is done in an office mostly depends on the field the company is
engaged in. In a coworking the main characteristic is that there is no
(one) company, so typically there will be lots of different things done in
parallel. The fact that it is a coworking on the other hand is already some
indication what kind of work is probably done there, typically graphics
design, web development, software development, architecture, journalism,
and other fields where the "modern precariat"/freelance is engaged in.
You'll hardly find banksters in a coworking for example.

The coworking spaces I know of are not restricted (neither by concept, nor
in reality) to a single kind of topic/field, but this may of course vary.

When detailing the tagging I think it would be more interesting to see what
kind of co-working relation it is: can you rent an office space by the
hour? Do you have to engage at least for a medium term (1 month)? What kind
of services offers the place (e.g. internet bandwidth, meeting rooms,
kitchen / catering, etc.), what is the size (could be the "capacity" tag,
maximum number of people).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Dave Swarthout]

Here in Thailand the places I've seen and tagged are more like meeting
places for people. The good wifi, handy electrical outlets, desks and
refreshments make them an ideal place to meet, browse the Internet, or work
but they are not IMO primarily used for work.

That is why I would favor using amenity as a top level tag.

Dave

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 5 Jan 2017, at 04:58, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> >
> > Coworking spaces are targeted towards white-collar office desk jobs
>
>
> +1, this is also what comes to my mind when I hear coworking. I propose to
> use office=coworking for those that are offices, and if you come along a
> different kind of place where people are working together without being in
> the same company you'll have to invent a new tag for these particular
> different kind of places, e.g. there's already something for collective
> bicycle repair (where coworking isn't a typical term to refer to).
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 05.01.2017 10:31, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


On 5 Jan 2017, at 04:58, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:

Coworking spaces are targeted towards white-collar office desk jobs



+1, this is also what comes to my mind when I hear coworking. I propose to use 
office=coworking for those that are offices, and if you come along a different 
kind of place where people are working together without being in the same 
company you'll have to invent a new tag for these particular different kind of 
places, e.g. there's already something for collective bicycle repair (where 
coworking isn't a typical term to refer to).


However, using office=coworking blocks this key for a description what 
is being done in these offices. So it mixes values of describing the 
trade with how the work is organised.


thus we could have:

* office=graphics_design + coworking=yes
  or even keep the amenity tag for the facility:
* office=software_development + amenity=coworking(_space)




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Re: [Tagging] Coworking space: amenity vs. office ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5 Jan 2017, at 04:58, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> 
> Coworking spaces are targeted towards white-collar office desk jobs


+1, this is also what comes to my mind when I hear coworking. I propose to use 
office=coworking for those that are offices, and if you come along a different 
kind of place where people are working together without being in the same 
company you'll have to invent a new tag for these particular different kind of 
places, e.g. there's already something for collective bicycle repair (where 
coworking isn't a typical term to refer to).

cheers,
Martin 
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