Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:02 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> I'm surprised people can't see the separation (or understand it might be
> different in other countries), similar to how police and fire services are
> different from a armored truck service or a home security company.


Yes, it seems sometimes hard to convince people that the situation is one
country (or continent) can be totally different from the rest of the world.
And since the voting process is dominated by certain groups, anything that
is not common to the UK-US-Germany is harder  to get accepted, at least
that is my impression. I am thinking e.g. about the named junctions, as
well as this proposal. That's a pity.

Maybe as a community we should try harder to understand the cultural
differences before casting a vote ? Sometimes we try to generalize to hard
in our tagging definitions I think. Let the generalization to the data
consumer and allow the mappers to map specific stuff.


m

p.s. I probably have made that same mistake myself and might easily make it
again. It's too easy to project your local situation to similar, yet
different concepts existing elsewhere.
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Re: [Tagging] Quonset hut

[Warin]

Forest Airport has a hanger that is a very large nissan hut .. at least 
as I understand it. Before 1931.


http://www.forrestairport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Hercules-off-to-Perth1.jpg

Some history
http://www.forrestairport.com.au/about-us/history/

On 15-Apr-17 12:19 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
I have a picture of a quonset hut that is still standing out on Adak 
Island. It was put there during WWII AFAIK. I will try to put it on 
Wikimedia tomorrow if anybody is interested.


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Rene > wrote:


First of all, thanks for this discussion guys!

In addition to Martin I think Wolfgang has the best way to tag a
building and what's inside of it. So let's assume you want to tag
a very cheap restaurant inside an old Quonset hut the tags will
be: amenity=restaurant, building=quonset_hut and
food=bad_don't_spend_your_money_here :-)

One problem though, the key:building wiki needs an extra
quonset_hut description and picture for future reference.

Rene


Op 13-4-2017 om 18:12 schreef Wolfgang Zenker:

* Michał Brzozowski mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com>> [170413 16:41]:

I don't see how going from "typology" you conclude it's
strictly about
form. Typology is about types, not saying with respect to
what.
When you look at top building values in Taginfo, it's
clear to me
these state purpose (house, residential, garage, apartments,
industrial, school and so on), with only exception being
hut, other
non-purpose values from the first page are in fact
non-buildings
(roof).

I'm in between here: building typology would depend on the
original
purpose of the building, but that would not necessary still be the
current purpose of the building. So, if a building had originally
been constructed as a church and is built in the style of a
church,
but is now used as a restaurant, it would be tagged
amenity=restaurant,
building=church.

Wolfgang
(lyx@osm)

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple transformers

[Jherome Miguel]

It is quite the same case as like this three pole-mounted transformer bank
in the Philippines. (
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:0016jfjfEDSA_Taft_Avenue_MRT_Station_LRT_Footbridge_Pasay_Cityfvf_14.jpg
)

And for the photo Tristan referred, it is like the one from Wikimedia
Commons that I referred, and it is actually a three-phase transformer bank

They usually do not look like being independent from each other, and
usually, the primary, secondary, or both are connected, and transformer
banks are used to supply three-phase power where single-phase transformers
are primarily used, like in the United States, Canada, the Philippines,
Japan, and South Korea, and those countries primarily use single-phase
distribution, either two-wire or three-wire. And three-phase systems are
usually for large customers. Two, three, or more transformers on one pole
used to supply single-phase and independent of each other, however, is
somewhat difficult to map.

Mapping each transformer in a transformer bank may be appropriate for the
larger ones used in substations, usually for extra high voltages (345 kV,
380 kV, 400 kV, 500 kV, 735 kV, 750 kV, 765 kV) and AC-DC conversion in
HVDC converter stations, but it is not appropriate for a pole-mounted bank.
For those mounted on poles, I came up with using the transformer_bank= tag
instead, yet, that still needs to be approved. You may include it in your
proposal on transformers, if possible.


On Apr 15, 2017 4:56 AM, "François Lacombe" 
wrote:

Hi Tristan,

TL;DR : no

I can't see your picture but I assume the transformers are fed by two
different phases and serve the same area, it's surely a bank and
TagaSanPedroAko have some nice ideas there
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dtransformer

If it's two independant transformers, supplying power to separate districts
or subscribers, then it's currently difficult to use the same object and
you may use as many nodes as transformers around a pole

This problem rises for antennas on masts/tower. No nice solution so far.


All the best in power devices mapping :)

François

2017-04-14 19:44 GMT+02:00 Tristan Anderson :

> Is there a way to indicate that a power pole has multiple transformers
> such as this one?
>
> http://oi65.tinypic.com/2rfu8ly.jpg
>
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Re: [Tagging] Quonset hut

[Dave Swarthout]

I have a picture of a quonset hut that is still standing out on Adak
Island. It was put there during WWII AFAIK. I will try to put it on
Wikimedia tomorrow if anybody is interested.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Rene  wrote:

> First of all, thanks for this discussion guys!
>
> In addition to Martin I think Wolfgang has the best way to tag a building
> and what's inside of it. So let's assume you want to tag a very cheap
> restaurant inside an old Quonset hut the tags will be: amenity=restaurant,
> building=quonset_hut and food=bad_don't_spend_your_money_here :-)
>
> One problem though, the key:building wiki needs an extra quonset_hut
> description and picture for future reference.
>
> Rene
>
>
> Op 13-4-2017 om 18:12 schreef Wolfgang Zenker:
>
> * Michał Brzozowski  [170413 16:41]:
>>
>>> I don't see how going from "typology" you conclude it's strictly about
>>> form. Typology is about types, not saying with respect to what.
>>> When you look at top building values in Taginfo, it's clear to me
>>> these state purpose (house, residential, garage, apartments,
>>> industrial, school and so on), with only exception being hut, other
>>> non-purpose values from the first page are in fact non-buildings
>>> (roof).
>>>
>> I'm in between here: building typology would depend on the original
>> purpose of the building, but that would not necessary still be the
>> current purpose of the building. So, if a building had originally
>> been constructed as a church and is built in the style of a church,
>> but is now used as a restaurant, it would be tagged amenity=restaurant,
>> building=church.
>>
>> Wolfgang
>> (lyx@osm)
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Apr 15, 2017, at 7:48 AM, muzirian  wrote:
> 
> But still many vote against just because they think post office tag is enough 
> for this

I'm surprised people can't see the separation (or understand it might be 
different in other countries), similar to how police and fire services are 
different from a armored truck service or a home security company. There are 
some overlap - but if you confused a post office and a Local kuroneko delivery 
branch with similar signage/iconography/etc here in Japan, people would en 
masse abandon your map - they are used so much more often than a US post office 
and treated so differently. 

They have a written character (a variant of テ) in their language that is only 
used for post offices:  〒 using it for anything else is actively trying to 
break the map. You can find it on the "post  office" emoji(at least in iOS). 🏣 
there is a reason it is in Unicode as "postal mark" 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_postal_mark

Recently they added a "European post office" with a little horn, I imagine it 
is a different business than DHL.  

I know it would be pretty easy use operator or another tag value to add 
different icon to the map, but beyond moving proper tagging /rendering from the 
data users to the OSM dataset, I'm using this to show that people differentiate 
the post office from other services and that should be reflected in the tagging 
from the start. Maybe the USPS and FedEx offer similar services in the US 
(besides some government forms), but there big differences between them in 
other countries, and that should be able to be represented. 


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[tomoya muramoto]

To muzirian,

Would you clarify how to use "courier:brand=yes/office/subsidiary"?

muramoto

2017-04-15 8:19 GMT+09:00 muzirian :

> edit:  so I don't know if it will be approved even after that.
>
> Kelvin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

edit:  so I don't know if it will be approved even after that.

Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

edit:  so I don't know if it will approved even after that.

Kelvin

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:18 AM, muzirian  wrote:

> This page is mostly copied from the other one :P
> If you guys can help with definitions or suggest additions to be made, may
> be we could revote the other one (or just improve this). But still many
> vote against just because they think post office tag is enough for this, so
> do know if it will approved even after that.
>
> Regards,
> Kelvin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

This page is mostly copied from the other one :P
If you guys can help with definitions or suggest additions to be made, may
be we could revote the other one (or just improve this). But still many
vote against just because they think post office tag is enough for this, so
do know if it will approved even after that.

Regards,
Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple transformers

[François Lacombe]

Hi Tristan,

TL;DR : no

I can't see your picture but I assume the transformers are fed by two
different phases and serve the same area, it's surely a bank and
TagaSanPedroAko have some nice ideas there
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dtransformer

If it's two independant transformers, supplying power to separate districts
or subscribers, then it's currently difficult to use the same object and
you may use as many nodes as transformers around a pole

This problem rises for antennas on masts/tower. No nice solution so far.


All the best in power devices mapping :)

François

2017-04-14 19:44 GMT+02:00 Tristan Anderson :

> Is there a way to indicate that a power pole has multiple transformers
> such as this one?
>
> http://oi65.tinypic.com/2rfu8ly.jpg
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2017, at 16:17, Mark Bradley  wrote:
> 
> Personally I am disappointed this proposal was rejected.  I read the section 
> of the wiki that talks about offices, and I think amenity fits a courier 
> business better.


I agree, personally, I voted no because there was no actual 
definition/description what should or not be tagged with amenity=courier, not 
because I thought amenity was not a good key for this.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - 2nd RFC - Improve Toilet Tagging

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Micah,

Am 2017-04-14 um 18:49 schrieb Micah Cochran:
> I've rewrote the proposal for improving toilet tagging.  This is a second
> request for comments.
> 
> Now this proposal tags for occupancy (single or multi), gender/group
> designation
> of toilets that are within a place (where tagged "toilet=yes"), and a
> prefix tagging scheme that will make the tags only apply to a
> group(gender) designation
> toilet.  (For example, it allow you to be able to tag that there are
> urinals in the men's room, but not the women's room.)
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
> 
> Please put comments in the proposal's discussion section.

The wiki page currently contains many paragraphs which are struck out.
Could you please delete them because they are no longer proposed by your
proposal? The OpenSTreetMap Wiki has a version history of each page
which shows you who edited the page at which time.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements&action=history
That's why I think that the section "Revision Notes" is also not necessary.

You can add a link to the previous discussions on the mailing lists
which are the reason for the changes of your proposal. That would be
great for people in future who want to understand your changes and why
things are as they are.

Best regards

Michael



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[Tagging] Parking meters

[Tristan Anderson]

How do parking meters fit in to the parking:condition tagging scheme?
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Re: [Tagging] office=therapist??

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2017, at 11:23, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> 
> "office" is really strange


well, it is strange in Italian and German, but maybe not in English as I found 
out. But still, looking at the other office values it is kind of an outlier.

I agree with Marc that it would fit much better into healthcare.

Cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] Multiple transformers

[Tristan Anderson]

Is there a way to indicate that a power pole has multiple transformers such as 
this one?

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2rfu8ly.jpg

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - 2nd RFC - Improve Toilet Tagging

[Micah Cochran]

Hello,

I've rewrote the proposal for improving toilet tagging.  This is a second
request for comments.

Now this proposal tags for occupancy (single or multi), gender/group
designation
of toilets that are within a place (where tagged "toilet=yes"), and a
prefix tagging scheme that will make the tags only apply to a
group(gender) designation
toilet.  (For example, it allow you to be able to tag that there are
urinals in the men's room, but not the women's room.)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements

Please put comments in the proposal's discussion section.

Thanks to everyone who have given feedback.

Thank you,
-- 

*Micah Cochran*

GIS Coordinator  -  City of Athens  -  Engineering Services & Community
Development Dept.  -  Dept. of Public Works Building  -  1600 ELM ST W,
Athens, AL  - geo:34.820608,-86.9914744 -
p. 256-233-2224  -  f. 256-233-8791 - www.athensalabama.us
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[Mark Bradley]

> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:18:40 +0530
> From: muzirian 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"
> 
> The proposal for amenity=courier was rejected, so going on with another 
> suggestion
> office=courier.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Office%3Dcourier
> 
> Regards
> Kelvin


Personally I am disappointed this proposal was rejected.  I read the section of 
the wiki that talks about offices, and I think amenity fits a courier business 
better.  For a courier, the important stuff happens out in the field 
(delivering packages), not in the office, as in the other types of offices 
listed in the wiki.  The fact that a courier has an office is secondary to its 
principal purpose.  But if people will support office=courier, I will support 
it, as I definitely think a courier deserves its own tag value.

Mark



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Re: [Tagging] office=therapist??

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> I think it's similar to :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmassage
>
> "office" is really strange

For me it's part of the healthcare 2.0 mapping.
see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0/Examples#Therapist.27s_office.
it right between examples of dentists, and other specialists. All are
mapped as office=...

m.

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Re: [Tagging] office=therapist??

[Thilo Haug OSM]

I think it's similar to :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmassage

"office" is really strange


Am 13.04.2017 um 23:23 schrieb John Willis:
>
>
> Javbw
>
> On Apr 14, 2017, at 4:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Looking through the current list of documented office values I came
>> across so that really sound odd to me, e.g.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aoffice%3Dtherapist
>>
>> wouldn't this be much better suited for the amenity tag?
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin 
>>
>> sent from a phone
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> I'm guessing it is a catch-all for offices (businesses) of therapists,
> psychologists, and other guidance/counselor people. 
>
> Therapists have offices, so perhaps similar to shop=* , people are
> using office=* to define various companies that you would find in
> building=office, similar building=retail, because the idea of
> "amenity" can be really confusing and is full of all kinds of things
> now...  
>
> Javbw. 
>
>
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