Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Blake Girardot]

Authorities routinely post the hurricane evacuation centers for a year
as they do change a little bit year to year.

but the core typically remains the same, schools etc.

These just need a good lifecycle tag.

Like "good until' date, after which it can be easily found and removed.

I proposed some lifecycle tags for damage tagging and helicopter
landing zones (different than helipads) that would apply here

I will try and find them, but they were based on a known good until
date, after which they should be updated and a new known good until
date added, or should be removed or not relied upon.

cheers
blake

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Eric wrote   "Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?"
>
>
> My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people will say
> "ooh - they'll be the same as last time" and of course they probably won't
> be the same as last time and we may route people to a wrong place, with
> possible tragic results.
>
> I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked ,
> unusable, until specifically activated by authorities, which I agree should
> be well ahead of time, so long as people know that they will not be usable
> until a state of emergency is declared.
>
> Activation should be on a center by centre basis so that authorities will be
> more likely to ensure the list of centers is accurate and up-to-date.
>
> I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way by
> anyone other than the authorities. This brings back the old arguments about
> read only data in OSM.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Eric wrote   "Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?"


My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people will say
"ooh - they'll be the same as last time" and of course they probably won't
be the same as last time and we may route people to a wrong place, with
possible tragic results.

I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked ,
unusable, until specifically activated by authorities, which I agree should
be well ahead of time, so long as people know that they will not be usable
until a state of emergency is declared.

Activation should be on a center by centre basis so that authorities will
be more likely to ensure the list of centers is accurate and up-to-date.

I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way by
anyone other than the authorities. This brings back the old arguments about
read only data in OSM.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Evacuation Route

[Nick Hocking]

Hi Eric,

I noticed that in one of the briefings , the Govoner of Florida mentioned
that Goggle was going to dynamically change their "evacuation routes",
should one become unavailable.

Will this proposal contain alternate evacuation routes, and an indication
by whom and when they would be activated?
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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Warin]

On 08-Sep-17 09:10 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Adding numeric values to the name of a peak is not okay. As for using 
feet in the "ele" tag instead of meters, JOSM discourages this 
practice and I think we should too. It's long past the time when 
Americans and other countries still using archaic and cumbersome 
measurement systems based on the length of the king's foot or thumb 
should embrace the metric system. The down side is that very peak I 
add involves an extra step.


Aviation still uses feet?
Asking a mapper who may not be familiar with conversion into meters 
leads to errors. I'd rather have the render do the conversion as is done 
for other dimensions.


Cheers,

Dave

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Jo > wrote:


ele can of course be in feett or lightyears for that matter, but
it's a lot easier to work with if they are all in the same unit.

2017-09-08 0:22 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>:

On 08-Sep-17 07:39 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 09/07/2017 04:31 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:

User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion
on changeset
50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of
mountain peaks (in
feet) to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown
Point" to "Crown
Point 11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't
specifically address the
issue of elevation as part of a peak name, it does say
"Name is the name
only"[3].

Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?

That's what this is for:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele


The only catch is that it has to be in meters, so you
would tag
ele=3493.9 in your example.


+1 to name tag is name only.


--

ele tag should be used for this information.

And I would think that the ele value can be in feet just like
other dimensional units of width, height etc.

Should this be put as a new proposal?



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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Dave Swarthout]

Adding numeric values to the name of a peak is not okay. As for using feet
in the "ele" tag instead of meters, JOSM discourages this practice and I
think we should too. It's long past the time when Americans and other
countries still using archaic and cumbersome measurement systems based on
the length of the king's foot or thumb should embrace the metric system.
The down side is that very peak I add involves an extra step.

Cheers,

Dave

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Jo  wrote:

> ele can of course be in feett or lightyears for that matter, but it's a
> lot easier to work with if they are all in the same unit.
>
> 2017-09-08 0:22 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>
>> On 08-Sep-17 07:39 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/07/2017 04:31 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:
>>>
 User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
 50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in
 feet) to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown
 Point 11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the
 issue of elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name
 only"[3].

 Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?

>>> That's what this is for: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele
>>>
>>> The only catch is that it has to be in meters, so you would tag
>>> ele=3493.9 in your example.
>>>
>>>
>> +1 to name tag is name only.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ele tag should be used for this information.
>>
>> And I would think that the ele value can be in feet just like other
>> dimensional units of width, height etc.
>>
>> Should this be put as a new proposal?
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Jo]

ele can of course be in feett or lightyears for that matter, but it's a lot
easier to work with if they are all in the same unit.

2017-09-08 0:22 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 08-Sep-17 07:39 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
>
>> On 09/07/2017 04:31 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
>>> 50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in
>>> feet) to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown
>>> Point 11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the
>>> issue of elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name
>>> only"[3].
>>>
>>> Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?
>>>
>> That's what this is for: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele
>>
>> The only catch is that it has to be in meters, so you would tag
>> ele=3493.9 in your example.
>>
>>
> +1 to name tag is name only.
>
>
> --
>
> ele tag should be used for this information.
>
> And I would think that the ele value can be in feet just like other
> dimensional units of width, height etc.
>
> Should this be put as a new proposal?
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point

[Viking]

> water_source=groundwater
+1


> water_level=6 (in meters) ?
> I mean the distance between the ground level and the 
> water level. E.g. the water is 3 m below ground.

Suction head is the right word in hydraulics.


> I think the water level will drop as large amounts of water are drawn off, so 
> you may need the distance from ground level to the bottom of the water source.

For these cases and for ponds or rivers where the water level may vary, we can 
use:
min_scution_head=# (meters) when water level is high and the distance from 
ground level is to the minimum
max_suction_head=# (meters) ) when water level is low and the distance from 
ground level is to the maximum


> pump_type=bilge_pump|electric_pump|none ?

Maybe integrated_pump=yes|bilge_pump|electric_pump|none ?


> water_source=water_tank
+1


> water_volume=small|medium|large|# (small 75–150 m^3, medium) 150–300 m^3 and 
> large>300 m^3 or numeric value).
-1


> water_volume=# (numeric value in m^3).
+1


> You are right, m^3 is shorter. But I don't mind if it's 75000 l or 75m^3.
> Small, medium, large don't have to be, because it is not as well defined as a 
> absolute value.
> I think it depends on the country, so the applications using this information 
> can convert from l to m^3 or small|medium|large
+1


> # fire_hydrant:class=*
> Should be clarified what AA, A, B, C means.

It is already explained in the proposal chapter "American Water Works 
Association colour scheme"


> 'Static  Water Supply' you mean a place near a pond/lake/stream where 
> no prebuilt pipe is available and it is just a place where to park the 
> fire engine to get easy access to the water by using there own hoses?
>
> As far as I understood that will be the emergency=suction_point
> That is too restrictive - limited to natural=water and rivers, I'd think 
> streams would be accepted too.
 > 'Static  Water Supply' around me are mostly private backyard swimming pools 
 > (leisure=swimming_pool access=private).
> Where the owner agrees a 'SWS' sign is placed at the property boundary close 
> to the road.

No, it isn't restrictive. For swimming pools you can place a node where you can 
park the fire engine (or where there is the SWS sign) with tags 
emergecy=suction_point + water_source=swimming_pool + water_volume + ...


Cheers
Alberto


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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[tomoya muramoto]

>
>
> do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag,
> rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility shelter
> in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd.
>
> (1) "emergency=shelter" is not defined in wiki

(2) wiki says social_facility=shelter can be applied to "Emergency Shelter"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
We wanted to show the shelter is only available when disaster happened, so
we added "emergency:" prefix.

muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Warin]

On 08-Sep-17 07:39 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 09/07/2017 04:31 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:

User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in
feet) to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown
Point 11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the
issue of elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name
only"[3].

Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?

That's what this is for: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele

The only catch is that it has to be in meters, so you would tag
ele=3493.9 in your example.



+1 to name tag is name only.


--

ele tag should be used for this information.

And I would think that the ele value can be in feet just like other 
dimensional units of width, height etc.


Should this be put as a new proposal?


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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 09/07/2017 04:31 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:
> User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
> 50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in
> feet) to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown
> Point 11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the
> issue of elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name
> only"[3].
> 
> Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?

That's what this is for: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele

The only catch is that it has to be in meters, so you would tag
ele=3493.9 in your example.

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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Tod Fitch]

Sounds like tagging for the renderer to me.

There is a elevation tag already defined and in wide spread use. And it is 
pretty easy for a renderer to show that in addition to the name. And even 
convert it from meters to feet when doing the rendering. I do this when 
rendering my personal use Topo maps.

Tod


On September 7, 2017 2:31:37 PM PDT, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
>50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in
>feet)
>to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown Point
>11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the issue of
>elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name
>only"[3].
>
>Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike
>
>
>[1]
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50470413#map=13/40.6282/-105.6071=D
>[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/358911255/history
>[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Name_is_the_name_only

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[Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

[Mike Thompson]

User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in feet)
to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown Point
11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the issue of
elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name only"[3].

Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?

Thanks,

Mike


[1]
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50470413#map=13/40.6282/-105.6071=D
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/358911255/history
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Name_is_the_name_only
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Eric Christensen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/07/2017 04:08 AM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> The list of emergency centers would be very much dependent on where
> the threat is and what the nature of the threat is.

As a former emergency management planner I'll go on the record as
saying... kinda.  Generally speaking, most emergency plans (and, by
extension, emergency resources) are considered all-hazards in nature.

> Therefore I see these as being loaded (by the relevant authorities)
> only when a state of emergency is declared and only for the areas
> affected.

Emergency managers generally make this information publicly available
well in advance of any emergency so people can make proper plans to
get to their shelter or to obtain emergency resources.  There really
isn't time to start making declarations, uploading data, and hoping
people will be able to get rendered data when a tsunami or tornado is
on the way.

> These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online, 
> immediately, and available for download shortly after. Since the
> areas are relatively small the downloads would not be a big issue.

Define "small".  Right now you have Hurricane Irma taking aim at the
states of Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina.  This
is not including the surrounding states that would also be taking in
evacuees.  This storm, larger than the state of Ohio, is going to do
some damage on a very large swath of land (and already has to quite a
few islands!).

> Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be
> deleted.

Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?  Shelters
take months to identify, work up agreements with building owners and
who will actually manage the shelter, determine how to supply the
shelter with supplies, how to staff the shelter, and many other
things.  One doesn't just show up to a building and declare it a
shelter nor does one just remove a shelter from a list after a
disaster (unless it's been shown to have been ineffective).  These are
well thought out, planned for, and exercised resources.

> Since these tags would only be used by the authorities, I believe
> that they should be unique to them.

I don't even understand this statement.

I'm a proponent of putting emergency information onto the map so
people have this information with them at all times.  No matter where
in the world you are you should be able to obtain information about
finding shelter, evacuation routes, water, supplies, and information.
 Some of this information will be dynamic but much of this information
is permanent.  The dynamic resources will be made available via
permanent information resources so documenting those will help fill
the gaps.

- --Eric
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Micah Cochran]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> Nick Hocking  writes:
>
> > Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of
> > natural disasters?
>
> Around me, there are almost no places that would be described like this
> as their primary use.
>
> Instead, there are schools, community centers, churches, etc. that are
> doing something normally, but there's a plan that if there is an
> emergency then the authorities might open it as a shelter.
>

Where I am at in North Alabama (USA) there are "tornado shelters" or
"tornado saferooms".  Some are singular use shelters.
For example:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Langston-tornado-shelter-al.jpg

Others are within another use: school, community center, church, etc.

Both types of saferooms are signed and open to the public.

-- 

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GIS Coordinator  -  City of Athens  -  Engineering Services & Community
Development Dept.  -  Dept. of Public Works Building  -  1600 ELM ST W,
Athens, AL  - geo:34.820608,-86.991474 -  p.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Greg Troxel]

Nick Hocking  writes:

> Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of
> natural disasters?
>
> Off the top of my head I could see tags such as
>
> emergency=shelter

Around me, there are almost no places that would be described like this
as their primary use.

Instead, there are schools, community centers, churches, etc. that are
doing something normally, but there's a plan that if there is an
emergency then the authorities might open it as a shelter.

So:

  it's an extra use, not a primary key

  it's an ability, not open/closed, and open/close is too dynamic to be
  on the map

so we really need

  this building is on the list to be a shelter if needed and might or
  might not be any minute


which I'd say "emergency=shelter" captures.


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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[marc marc]

Le 07. 09. 17 à 17:24, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>> emegency:social_facility=shelter
> social_facility shelter in osm is used with a different meaning,
>  so it seems quite odd.
+1 :(

2017-09-07 13:41 GMT+02:00 tomoya muramoto :
 > hazard_type=*

feel free to add some info in the wiki
having every disaster/country that uses its own tag is harmful.
many contributors are not able to read a discussion in Japanese,
much less to make a summary.

Le 07. 09. 17 à 10:08, Nick Hocking a écrit :
 > These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online,
 > immediately, and available for download shortly after.
you forget that many apps like maps.me do not have real-time 
synchronization but do a update of offline map for example monthly.
it is totally unsuitable for emergency.
it is necessary to add POI in osm as soon as possible,
while avoiding the rendering for disused emergency POI
the advantage of osm in this kind of situation is the reactivity.

 > Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be deleted.

all ? why ? of course, temporary shelters should be deleted
(or better just modify with a disused prefix to not lose other info)
but in Switzerland, for example, there are emergency shelters called 
"abris PC", their lifespan is the same as the building. they are on 
public map, sometimes also in the common parts of private building.
I see no reason to delete this kind of information only because
no disaster is expected this week in this area. no reason either
to wait that a government switch to osm to add them in osm.
limiting the damage caused by a disaster is also to prepare
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-07 13:41 GMT+02:00 tomoya muramoto :

> (1) Evacuation shelter
> Many schools are designated as evacuation shelter for natural disaster
> such as flooding.
> amenity=school
> emegency:social_facility=shelter
> hazard_type=*
>
>


do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag,
rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility shelter
in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Micah Cochran]

There was a discussion here on "Disaster response" in April.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-April/032127.html
Another discussion back in December 2015 "If a school is a shelter when a
disaster happens..."
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-December/027929.html

amenity=shelter is well established for (mainly) recreational uses, which
is very different from emergency shelters.

There are a few different practices/facilities meant by the word "shelter",
perhaps using different terms would help to make a distinction.

Thank you for bring up the discussion,
-- 

*Micah Cochran*

GIS Coordinator  -  City of Athens  -  Engineering Services & Community
Development Dept.  -  Dept. of Public Works Building  -  1600 ELM ST W,
Athens, AL   - geo:34.820608,-86.991474 -  p.
256-233-2224  -  f. 256-233-8791 - www.athensalabama.us

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:41 AM, tomoya muramoto 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Japanese community has decided to use following tags
> (Discussed here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2017-
> July/009817.html)
>
> (1) Evacuation shelter
> Many schools are designated as evacuation shelter for natural disaster
> such as flooding.
> amenity=school
> emegency:social_facility=shelter
> hazard_type=*
>
> (2) Evacuation area
> Many large parks are designated as evacuation area for natural disaster
> such as earthquake.
> leisure=park
> emergency=assembly_point
> hazard_type=*
>
> Also I hear Taiwanese community use similar tags
> https://osmtw.hackpad.com/ep/pad/static/lis34MoHRDu
>
> muramoto
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Evacuation Route

[Eric Christensen]

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https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes

Emergency evacuation routes, with direction, for various types of
emergencies.

Thanks,
Eric "Sparks"
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[tomoya muramoto]

Hi all,

Japanese community has decided to use following tags
(Discussed here
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2017-July/009817.html)

(1) Evacuation shelter
Many schools are designated as evacuation shelter for natural disaster such
as flooding.
amenity=school
emegency:social_facility=shelter
hazard_type=*

(2) Evacuation area
Many large parks are designated as evacuation area for natural disaster
such as earthquake.
leisure=park
emergency=assembly_point
hazard_type=*

Also I hear Taiwanese community use similar tags
https://osmtw.hackpad.com/ep/pad/static/lis34MoHRDu

muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Marc wrote

"*open=yes/no *except this one. what do you mean ?"

Yes, I agree , this one is silly and means nothing. They are always open,
and if closed will be  just deleted from the map.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[marc marc]

Le 07. 09. 17 à 05:48, Nick Hocking a écrit :
> Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters 
> to be used in times of natural disasters?

why not, it could be consistent with the other emergency feature.

> emergency=shelter
> open=yes/no
except this one. what do you mean ?
for me a closed emergency is no more an emergency.
it is a bad idea to let them displayed on a map.
it is probably useful to add a prefix disused:

if you want to say that a shelter is sometimes open,
sometimes closed, it may be better to use the tag
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours
opening_hours=off mean the feature is in a working state
but closed. if somebody has the key, it can be open asap.

temporary shelters which will probably be suppressed after
the disaster would benefit from being taged with temporary=yes
to be able to select & delete if need after the disaster.
Otherwise it will be hard to differentiate between a permanent
shelter and a temporary shelter that has been forgotten.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2017, at 12:22, Walter Nordmann  wrote:
> 
> Hi (hallo) Martin,
> 
> in Osm there are 94790 amenity=shelter and 1 (one) emergency=shelter. (Nodes 
> only, may be some more ways).
> I think, you won't change that ;)
> 


likely not alone ;-)

Depending on the kind of emergency most of the amenity=shelter aren't suitable 
as emergency shelters. Also there's no problem having both tags set in case 
that both do apply. The kind of events that were mentioned above are mostly 
more severe as that a bus stop can protect you from.

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2017, at 10:38, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
> 
> whereas amenity=shelter is a protection from something defined
> in shelter_type=*


the sun shelter protects from the sun, the weather shelter from the weather and 
the picnic shelter from picnics? ;-)

Maybe it would make more sense to define things as sun, wind, rain, falling 
rock, etc.

Features like a table, seating, etc. could go into a different property 

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Walter Nordmann]

Hi (hallo) Martin,

in Osm there are 94790 amenity=shelter and 1 (one) emergency=shelter. 
(Nodes only, may be some more ways).


I think, you won't change that ;)


Am 07.09.2017 um 09:54 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


I would use "emergency" as the "main" key.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point

[Warin]

On 07-Sep-17 05:47 PM, Moritz wrote:


And there seems to be a consensus for grouping all things where 
firefighters can attach their pump under emergency=fire_hydrant.

Where there is a dedicated pipe/hydrant. Where there is a 'Static
Water Supply' then there are usually no formal fittings of any
description.
'Static  Water Supply' you mean a place near a pond/lake/stream where 
no prebuilt pipe is available and it is just a place where to park the 
fire engine to get easy access

to the water by using there own hoses?

As far as I understood that will be the emergency=suction_point
That is too restrictive - limited to natural=water and rivers, I'd think 
streams would be accepted too.
 'Static  Water Supply' around me are mostly private backyard swimming 
pools (leisure=swimming_pool access=private). Where the owner agrees a 
'SWS' sign is placed at the property boundary close to the road.
Other things with an SWS sign are rainwater tanks (typically 1,000 to 
10,000 litres, the next development on my property requires a 5,000l tank).

See
https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=319
http://arcadiarfs.org.au/bush-fire-survival/2013/3/26/static-water-supplies-sws





But I think there are some issues left:

# Fire Water wells

A pipe connected not to a pond but to the groundwater.

Should be

water_source=groundwater

How to tag the water level (distance between water level and ground 
level)?


water_level=6 (in meters) ?

Also there are water wells which have a water level below approx 8 m 
and due to physics there is an additional pump needed. This pump is 
integrated in the
water well at water level and is either driven by electricity or 
external applied water pressure.


Humm water level is usually taken as the height reached by the water,
from the bottom of a well/dam/tank.
If you are sucking then you might get to the bottom .. so you would
need equipment to get to the very base of the water.
Must be a better term for this parameter? You want the dimension from
the pump point to the minimum (most distant height) water level.


You are right. I mean the distance between the ground level and the 
water level. E.g. the water is 3 m below ground.
I think the water level will drop as large amounts of water are drawn 
off, so you may need the distance from ground level to the bottom of the 
water source.

Does anybody have a better idea then water_level?

Not yet. Let me think on it?


Background is: the lower the vertical distance between water level and 
pump the easier it is to suck the water to the pump. Depending on the
pump and hoses (small airgaps at the hose connections etc) it can be 
difficult to get water from vert. distances > 6/7m.


For firefighters this information is important, because if they have 
more then one well to choose from they can use the one with the 
smaller vert. distance.

Usually they will use the closest one, until it runs out.





water_volume=# (numeric value in m^3).


Around me capacity is stated in litres? So this could be a optional 
unit.

I'd rather not see a small|medium|large value.

You are right, m^3 is shorter. But I don't mind if it's 75000 l or 75m^3.
Small, medium, large don't have to be, because it is not as well 
defined as a absolute value.


I think it depends on the country, so the applications using this 
information can convert from l to m^3 or small|medium|large


Moritz

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:41:37 +0200
Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:44 AM, Nick Hocking 
> wrote:
>>
>> "I think amenity=shelter is well established  "
>
> The social facility shelter
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
> mentions emergency shelter.

amenity=social_facility + social_facility=shelter is foremost temporary
housing whereas amenity=shelter is a protection from something defined
in shelter_type=* (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type)

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

The list of emergency centers would be very much dependent on where the
threat is and what the nature of the threat is.

Therefore I see these as being loaded (by the relevant authorities) only
when a state of emergency is declared and only for the areas affected.

These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online, immediately,
and available for download shortly after. Since the areas are relatively
small the downloads would not be a big issue.

Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be deleted.

Since these tags would only be used by the authorities, I believe that they
should be unique to them.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-07 9:49 GMT+02:00 Nick Hocking :

> I don't think this school should be labelled with any kind of social
> facility tag whereas it is only in a state of emergency that it would take
> on the role of an emergency center.
>


especially as social_facility is in the amenity namespace, as is
amenity=shelter, so they are both incompatible as properties on all
amenities.
I would use "emergency" as the "main" key.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point

[Moritz]

And there seems to be a consensus for grouping all things where 
firefighters can attach their pump under emergency=fire_hydrant.

Where there is a dedicated pipe/hydrant. Where there is a 'Static
Water Supply' then there are usually no formal fittings of any
description.
'Static  Water Supply' you mean a place near a pond/lake/stream where no 
prebuilt pipe is available and it is just a place where to park the fire 
engine to get easy access

to the water by using there own hoses?

As far as I understood that will be the emergency=suction_point



But I think there are some issues left:

# Fire Water wells

A pipe connected not to a pond but to the groundwater.

Should be

water_source=groundwater

How to tag the water level (distance between water level and ground 
level)?


water_level=6 (in meters) ?

Also there are water wells which have a water level below approx 8 m 
and due to physics there is an additional pump needed. This pump is 
integrated in the
water well at water level and is either driven by electricity or 
external applied water pressure.


Humm water level is usually taken as the height reached by the water,
from the bottom of a well/dam/tank.
If you are sucking then you might get to the bottom .. so you would
need equipment to get to the very base of the water.
Must be a better term for this parameter? You want the dimension from
the pump point to the minimum (most distant height) water level.


You are right. I mean the distance between the ground level and the 
water level. E.g. the water is 3 m below ground.

Does anybody have a better idea then water_level?

Background is: the lower the vertical distance between water level and 
pump the easier it is to suck the water to the pump. Depending on the
pump and hoses (small airgaps at the hose connections etc) it can be 
difficult to get water from vert. distances > 6/7m.


For firefighters this information is important, because if they have 
more then one well to choose from they can use the one with the smaller 
vert. distance.





water_volume=# (numeric value in m^3).


Around me capacity is stated in litres? So this could be a optional 
unit.

I'd rather not see a small|medium|large value.
You are right, m^3 is shorter. But I don't mind if it's 75000 l or 
75m^3.
Small, medium, large don't have to be, because it is not as well defined 
as a absolute value.


I think it depends on the country, so the applications using this 
information can convert from l to m^3 or small|medium|large


Moritz

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Marc Gemis]

the wikipedia page it refers to seem to describe the same facility as
you do, not ?

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Marc wrote
> "The social facility shelter
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
> mentions emergency shelter."
>
> Yes it does, although I would think that these would usually be of limited
> capacity and meant for use at all times.
>
> I think we need  tagging for large scale relief centres that would be open
> (and known to be open) if, and only if, a state of emergency has been
> declared.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Marc wrote
"The social facility shelter
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
mentions emergency shelter."

Yes it does, although I would think that these would usually be of limited
capacity and meant for use at all times.

I think we need  tagging for large scale relief centres that would be open
(and known to be open) if, and only if, a state of emergency has been
declared.
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