Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposals - RFC for multiple features - Education Reform - Magnetic Levitation Trains

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Looks good Erkin

Question, thanks.

We have Security Training "schools" (companies to train private security
guards) & also Language Schools (usually to teach English to non-English
speakers).

Would these come under =speciality, or possibly =vocational?

Would it be possibly be an idea to also then include an additional tag:
speciality / vocational=* (eg Security; English language etc)?

Thanks

Graeme


On 17 September 2017 at 15:54, Erkin Alp Güney 
wrote:

> Two RFCs by me are ready. One of them are education reform(actually
> delayed a bit). This brings education key instead of amenity=school.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposals - RFC for multiple features - Education Reform - Magnetic Levitation Trains

[José G Moya Y .]

Hi, Erick.

I'm just a newbie in tagging, but I find a reason for keeping school and
university at the "amenity" tag. These educative institutions are often
easy to spot (they span over an entire building and in many cases they have
a campus or playground), while other "education" institutions or businesses
in your proposal usually span over a small office inside a building.
Schools and universities can work as points of reference in places where
street names or numbers are difficult to spot (that's why I map electric
poles in open field: they are points of reference).

This said, I find your classification of educational businesses useful, and
I think that adding additional tags to already mappped schools is easy,
because your categories are probably easier to understand than ISCED.

Just a question. A school where you prepare exams to get a position in a
bank, in the government or in the police is also a "cram school"? And why a
school where you prepare an exam to get a driving license is not?


Yours,
José Moya
Spain

El 17/9/2017 7:56, "Erkin Alp Güney"  escribió:

> Two RFCs by me are ready. One of them are education reform(actually
> delayed a bit). This brings education key instead of amenity=school.
> Full proposal at
>  Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative>
> Another is magnetic levitation trains, this one having completed its
> draft quickly. This brings railway=maglev tag and its associated
> rendering.
>  Magnetic_levitaiton_train>
>
> Yours, faithfully
> Erkin Alp
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposals - RFC for multiple features - Education Reform - Magnetic Levitation Trains

[marc marc]

Le 17. 09. 17 à 07:54, Erkin Alp Güney a écrit :

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative

+1 for good inventory work

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative#Features_not_covered_by_this_proposal
you said that driving school is not covered by this proposal.
but a little further, you talk about the tag education=driving

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative#Abandoned
a typo (min_age <> max_age)
the same typo a little further in "Additional tags" section
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[Tagging] Feature Proposals - RFC for multiple features - Education Reform - Magnetic Levitation Trains

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Two RFCs by me are ready. One of them are education reform(actually
delayed a bit). This brings education key instead of amenity=school.
Full proposal at

Another is magnetic levitation trains, this one having completed its
draft quickly. This brings railway=maglev tag and its associated
rendering. 


Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp

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Re: [Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[Dave Swarthout]

>do you mean that for example the tripadvisor website is
>often more up-to-date for a POI than the POI website itself ?

On second look, my reply is off-topic slightly as this is about the
contact:* tags and review websites. I would never tag a review site like
YELP or Tripadvisor.

But in the case of campgrounds or guest_houses having a link to a fuller
description can be very helpful: Here is an example of a caravan_site for
the Lake Louise State Recreation Area in Alaska:
website=http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/aspunits/matsu/lklouisesra.htm

Mappers cannot easily supply the wealth of information contained in that
website simply through the use of tags. I added fee=yes, wheelchair=yes and
a few other tags but there is no way one can capture the wealth of detail
provided in the state-maintained website.

Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers,

Dave



On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Élisée Reclus 
wrote:

> Am 16.09.2017 um 15:25 schrieb marc marc:
> > and maybe it makes sense only for review system where you can retrieve
> > the note from an id. systems where you have to go to their own website
> > are unusable from an osm search (find a hotel close by with a 4 star
> review)
>
> All three services provide an API and it should be possible to make such
> queries.
>
> DuckDuckGo (a small search engine) for example shows ratings from Yelp
> and Tripadvisor (perhaps also from Foursquare, it only shows the ratings
> from one service for one place).
>
> They're all commercial services and not as open as as OSM. An
> "OpenReview" service similar to OSM/Wikipedia/Wikidata would be better,
> but that doesn't seem to exist or at least is not very popular.
>
> Reclus
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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[Tagging] Fire hydrants split

[Viking]

I've splitted the proposal in [1] and [2], as requested.
Please help me to check them.
In Italian mailing list, it has been proposed the tag cap:wrench=*, because 
often the wrench needed to open the caps is different from the wrench that 
opens the hydrant itself. I've added this tag to [2] with some new values. As 
soon as possible we will put some pictures to explain better.

Since we are using colon ( : ) in many tags, I'm wondering if we should switch 
back to:
couplings_type -> couplings:type
couplings_diameters -> couplings:diameters


[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions_(part_2)

Best regards
Alberto


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Re: [Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[Élisée Reclus]

Am 16.09.2017 um 15:25 schrieb marc marc:
> and maybe it makes sense only for review system where you can retrieve 
> the note from an id. systems where you have to go to their own website 
> are unusable from an osm search (find a hotel close by with a 4 star review)

All three services provide an API and it should be possible to make such
queries.

DuckDuckGo (a small search engine) for example shows ratings from Yelp
and Tripadvisor (perhaps also from Foursquare, it only shows the ratings
from one service for one place).

They're all commercial services and not as open as as OSM. An
"OpenReview" service similar to OSM/Wikipedia/Wikidata would be better,
but that doesn't seem to exist or at least is not very popular.

Reclus

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Re: [Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[marc marc]

Le 16. 09. 17 à 13:49, Dave Swarthout a écrit :
> owners will update the website info as needed

do you mean that for example the tripadvisor website is
often more up-to-date for a POI than the POI website itself ?
AND that tripadvisor website is not enough to have all contact info and 
it is why you need to add several thematic website to have all contact ?
if yes, please feel free to give an example of official website of a poi 
and many other website needed to have updated contact info
my experience is the opposite: seo pollution is sometimes so important 
that it is difficult to find the "official" website of the poi that 
contains the updated info, while other sites sometimes have very old 
information.

another problem is the quantity: should each thematic website
add its url to each of the poi of which it speaks ?
it is potentially a lot of tag for each poi ...
by exaggerating, all the results of a google search will end up
being added in osm, with no added value for the osm data user.

Le 16. 09. 17 à 15:09, Élisée Reclus a écrit :
 > Reviews are a feature that is missing in OSM at the moment,
 > but that is very important for end users.

it might be useful to have an id to be able to link to these reviews, 
but this has nothing more to do with contact:*, it would need a 
dedicated namespace like review:* and a proposal to have a system 
harmonized and usable at the global level, instead of every mapper
doing what he thinks best.
and maybe it makes sense only for review system where you can retrieve 
the note from an id. systems where you have to go to their own website 
are unusable from an osm search (find a hotel close by with a 4 star review)
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[Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[Élisée Reclus]

Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> I have seen a few mappers recently adding
> contact:[ yelp | tripadvisor | foursquare ]
> to businesses.
> 
> IMHO these are not means of contact, instead these are review websites. While 
> I personally think 
> that we do not need them in OSM at all, they certainly do not belong in the 
> contact:* namespace.

These tags would be very useful for a OSM based service that would allow
a user to search for POIs and not only display their name, website,
phone number, if they are open at the moment, but also reviews. Reviews
are a feature that is missing in OSM at the moment, but that is very
important for end users.

Yelp, Foursquare and Tripadvisor are the three big review services and
they don't seem to disappear in the near future. Wikidata also has
properties for all three. It's obviously not spam.

OSM does or at least should contain structured information. So it should
be preferable to map IDs, not URLs. See also (in german, sorry!):

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Reclus#Bewertungswebsites

Businesses can claim their entry on all three services. So it's a bit
like a Facebook page (contact:facebook) then. (In fact an entry that is
not claimed is similar to a Facebook place page.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foursquare#Foursquare_for_business
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelp#Features_for_businesses

IMHO these services don't fit perfectly into contact:, but it's better
to use contact: – which is not completly wrong, s.a. – than to use no
prefix/namespace or a new prefix/namespace only for these three.

Reclus

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Re: [Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[Dave Swarthout]

marc wrote: "When the poi has its own website website, adding a lot of tag
containing the pages that talk about this poi makes no sense
and look like seo spam."

There are sometimes good reasons to do this, IMO. I like to add the website
for hotels and guesthouses because the data consumer then can optionally
use the information to help users. Websites often have comprehensive
contact information as well and that means OSM mappers needn't worry about
its currency or validity. We can safely assume the owners will update the
website info as needed which cannot be said for the casual OSM mapper or
end user.

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 3:55 PM, marc marc 
wrote:

> Le 16. 09. 17 à 00:56, Tom Pfeifer a écrit :
> > I have seen a few mappers recently adding
> > contact:[ yelp | tripadvisor | foursquare ]
> > to businesses.
>
> it sometimes happens that a small shop does not have a own website.
> in this case it is useful to add the page of another commercial
> website containing information about it.
> In this case, I think it is useful to put the url in the url tag.
>
> When the poi has its own website website, adding a lot of tag
> containing the pages that talk about this poi makes no sense
> and look like seo spam.
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[marc marc]

Le 16. 09. 17 à 00:56, Tom Pfeifer a écrit :
> I have seen a few mappers recently adding
> contact:[ yelp | tripadvisor | foursquare ]
> to businesses.

it sometimes happens that a small shop does not have a own website.
in this case it is useful to add the page of another commercial
website containing information about it.
In this case, I think it is useful to put the url in the url tag.

When the poi has its own website website, adding a lot of tag
containing the pages that talk about this poi makes no sense
and look like seo spam.
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Re: [Tagging] contact:* for review websites

[Tobias Knerr]

On 16.09.2017 00:56, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> IMHO these are not means of contact, instead these are review websites.
> While I personally think that we do not need them in OSM at all, they
> certainly do not belong in the contact:* namespace.

I agree that these aren't contact channels, and it makes no sense to put
them into that namespace.

Regarding your second point, I'm also not a big fan of having these in
OSM at all. I appreciate links to open content sites (Wikipedia,
Wikidata and so on), as well as the official website of an entity. But
advertising non-open third-party sites – and inevitably favouring them
over their competitors – doesn't feel right. This group of keys also
seems to be a favourite of SEO spammers and their ilk.

Tobias

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