Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Carpet hanger

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I see no meaningful difference between amenity=carpet_hanger and
man_made=carpet_hanger so I changed proposal to man_made=carpet_hanger

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 14:57:55 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> man_made would be a more specific key and avoids excluding ones that
> are not for the community, e.g. a commercial enterprise.
> 
> man_made "for identifying man-made/(artificial)/  structures added to
> the landscape" amenity "an assortment of community facilities"
> 
> On 10/04/18 14:37, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > carpet hanger (also carpet stand or carpet rack) is a construction
> > to hang carpets for cleaning with the help of carpet beaters.
> >
> > Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_hanger
> >
> > Currently there is no documented tagging scheme for this feature. At
> > this moment amenity=beater is typically used, but it seems poor tag
> > name, not matching English name for this feature.
> >
> > the proposal page:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/carpet_hanger
> >
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> 
> 


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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Marc Gemis]

As mentioned earlier (maybe a year ago) in a similar thread on
flowers/flowerbeds, I mapped quite a few of them:
http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/nl/map/rozentuin-rose-garden-vrijbroekpark_21719#18/51.02054/4.46236
As said back then, I am willing to retag them when something betters
turns up. Nothing happened last time. I only need a good
landuse/landcover/leisure combination though, yes all three of them.

regards

m


On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 1:51 AM, John Willis  wrote:
>
> On Apr 10, 2018, at 5:47 AM, John Willis  wrote:
>
> landuse=flowerbed
>
>
> 
>
> Although I searched the wiki and didn’t find the page I was looking for —
> when I googled for it, I found a “defacto” page made for landuse=flowerbed.
>
> 1200 uses.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed
>
> I think making this page more fleshed out would serve well.
>
> Define it as an area used primarily for decorative flowers and other
> ornamental plants (that are not hedges or trees).
>
> That tag can be used in the decorations seen out front of a mall or school,
> the beds of flowers in a rose garden, large outdoor flower installations, or
> a decorative display found in roadside landscaping.
>
> Let the larger landuse define the purpose (garden, retail, park, median,
> etc), just like we use fence, wall, or parking.
>
> Javbw
>
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Marc Gemis]

Not all "flowerbeds" that are tourist attractions are  human made.

The Hallerbos near Brussels is famous for its bluebells [1], which are
only carrying flowers for a couple of weeks.
Outside this period, the forest remains a nice place to walk, but is
not really a tourist attraction anymore
I haven't seen a proposal in this thread that would be appropriate for
this area.

regards

m

[1] https://www.hallerbos.be/en/

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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Clifford Snow]

In John Wills original post he talked about tulip farms. These are tourist
attractions around me,  but really it's about farming. Around me they plant
tulips to harvest the bulbs with a side business of tourism.

Farming is different than gardens. Both are valid.

Clifford

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Carpet hanger

[Warin]

man_made would be a more specific key and avoids excluding ones that are not 
for the community, e.g. a commercial enterprise.

man_made "for identifying man-made/(artificial)/  structures added to the 
landscape"
amenity "an assortment of community facilities"

On 10/04/18 14:37, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

carpet hanger (also carpet stand or carpet rack) is a construction to
hang carpets for cleaning with the help of carpet beaters.

Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_hanger

Currently there is no documented tagging scheme for this feature. At
this moment amenity=beater is typically used, but it seems poor tag
name, not matching English name for this feature.

the proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/carpet_hanger

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Carpet hanger

[Mateusz Konieczny]

carpet hanger (also carpet stand or carpet rack) is a construction to
hang carpets for cleaning with the help of carpet beaters.

Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_hanger 

Currently there is no documented tagging scheme for this feature. At
this moment amenity=beater is typically used, but it seems poor tag
name, not matching English name for this feature.

the proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/carpet_hanger

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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Warin]

On 10/04/18 09:51, John Willis wrote:


On Apr 10, 2018, at 5:47 AM, John Willis > wrote:


landuse=flowerbed




Although I searched the wiki and didn’t find the page I was looking 
for — when I googled for it, I found a “defacto” page made for 
landuse=flowerbed.


1200 uses.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed 



I think making this page more fleshed out would serve well.

Define it as an area used primarily for decorative flowers and other 
ornamental plants (that are not hedges or trees).


Why the height restriction? Some shrubs and trees have spectacular 
flowers...




That tag can be used in the decorations seen out front of a mall or 
school, the beds of flowers in a rose garden, large outdoor flower 
installations, or a decorative display found in roadside landscaping.


Let the larger landuse define the purpose (garden, retail, park, 
median, etc), just like we use fence, wall, or parking.


=-O Is it really a 'landuse'? Or better as a 'landcover'?

Roadside landscaping is really use of the land for the road verge and as 
such is really landuse=road/highway.


I think that the  tag should be for what is there - the land cover.
What the land is used for can change from one flower bed to another.
Possibly this landuse=flowerbed thinking follows that ridiculous tag 
landuse=grass?


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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[John Willis]

> On Apr 10, 2018, at 5:47 AM, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> landuse=flowerbed



Although I searched the wiki and didn’t find the page I was looking for — when 
I googled for it, I found a “defacto” page made for landuse=flowerbed. 

1200 uses. 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed 


I think making this page more fleshed out would serve well. 

Define it as an area used primarily for decorative flowers and other ornamental 
plants (that are not hedges or trees). 

That tag can be used in the decorations seen out front of a mall or school, the 
beds of flowers in a rose garden, large outdoor flower installations, or a 
decorative display found in roadside landscaping.

Let the larger landuse define the purpose (garden, retail, park, median, etc), 
just like we use fence, wall, or parking. 

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Re: [Tagging] Still RFC — Drop stop positions and platforms

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 31.03.2018 um 17:00 schrieb Johnparis:
> This implies the following changes to v2:
> 
> 1) every platform node should have mandatory {mode}=yes tag(s)

I also think that public_transport=platform without *=yes tags is some
kind of incomplete.

> 2) stop_positions should be optional on the map and should not be included
> in the route relations

Stop positions should be optional but there are some cases where they
are useful. If they are mapped, they should be added to the route
relation. If we don't add them to the route relations, we can skip them
at all.

> I'm inclined to agree with the wiki that the v1 tags on nodes should remain
> (including the two million highway=bus_stop tags).
> 
> I don't really see a big advantage in changing the value of the v2 tag from
> public_transport=platform to something like public_transport=wait_area (and
> there are about one million public_transport=platform tags at the moment).

+1

If you try to invent new tags just to replace old tags and the old tags
are used very often, a proposal is doomed to fail.

Best regards

Michael

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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Michael Reichert]

Hallo Mateusz,

Am 09.04.2018 um 12:55 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> Currently definition at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
> is unclear, it fits two cases
> 
> * intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
>   to railway=station)
> * terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
>   here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)

In Germany, mappers also use amenity=bus_station for interchange hubs of
local buses where multiple buses stop at the bus station at the same
time. Towns usually have one or two large bus stations (often next to
the train station), called "Zentraler Omnibusbahnhof" (ZOB) or
"Busbahnhof" (central bus station; Bahnhof = station).

> Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?

I think that the the second meaning could be removed.


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Re: [Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:34:17 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> * [[waterways]]: general waterway mapping information

I restored this reference and added some info about lifecycle tagging
(copy pasted from mailing list, hopefully it is OK).

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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[John Willis]

During this discussion it is evident That we need a macro "venue" tag *And* A 
micromapping "flower bed" tag together. 

let's take a Rose garden for example. 
The garden itself is one big landuse. The standard "garden" tag should suffice. 

Then there are all the little pieces inside. The paths, fountains, etc. The 
Rose garden is 30-40 smaller flowerbeds bordered by paths and walls. This is 
where we need the new micromapping tag. 

Landuse=flowerbed. (Flower_bed?) 

Next: Tulip "attraction" grounds (not the actual commercial farm). 

First problem - how do you tag the entire venue? It is a single landuse with 
parking, shops, etc. Some new value for the existing garden:type=* subtag 
should probably be created for these outdoor large-scale "spectacles". 

Then map the paths and tracks and driveways and the windmill as normal. 

Then the tulip fields themselves. Theey could be mapped as one big field 
between the service roads. My venue would use 2-3. 
But the tulips are mapped to their color and variety (they each have a name) 
and we are now back to having 30-40 small landuse=flowerbed. 

Lastly:  a large single "spectacle" my flowers on the hill, the sunflower 
displays for tourism (as Dave mentioned, happens here too). These often 
re-occur in the exact same spot year after year and a small toursit spot is 
open for the few weeks it is beautiful; part of the late summer feastivals. 

Same new garden:type=* tag. Paths and parking. The viewpoint, if present. 

Then a large landuse=flowerbed for the big field of sunflowers or nemophila or 
whatever. 

Javbw

> On Apr 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> maybe it could be tagged as garden with fee and a (new) subtype? For reference

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Re: [Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

>> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dderelict_canal


btw, would you agree it is good to remove the link to the general waterways 
page from specific tag pages / see also section?

to me the reference would seem useful
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 09.04.2018 o 20:38, Christoph Hormann pisze:

> By the way the wiki page
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dderelict_canal
>
> is a great demonstration of how dysfunctional the tag documentation on 
> the wiki has become - in this case with the attempt to encourage 
> improvement of the tag documentation being scuttled by silently 
> removing the verifiability template.

I don't know if this is wider problem with documentation, but certainly
it's the wider problem with this user. He tries to change things too
eagerly and avoids discussion, even if he knows that it's important. For
example he also made a big change with palace tagging lately, which I
reverted:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/57705945

If he will avoid discussions here, I'd like to cool him down a bit with
a temporary ban. Which is sad for me, because he made a lot of great
cleaning and updating with osm-carto legend on wiki.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Christoph Hormann]

It is not the first time this subject (here literally this subject) has 
been discussed:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-August/thread.html#26101

By the way the wiki page

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dderelict_canal

is a great demonstration of how dysfunctional the tag documentation on 
the wiki has become - in this case with the attempt to encourage 
improvement of the tag documentation being scuttled by silently 
removing the verifiability template.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Apr 2018, at 19:53, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> I think that it could be improved by deprecating it.
> 
> Use more modern lifecycle tagging.


+1

Cheers,
Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Apr 2018, at 19:37, Johnparis  wrote:
> 
> There is no building associated with it. Most bus stations that I map don't 
> have a building.
> 
> Another thing to consider: the stop area, which I also mentioned above, is 
> logical (a relation) rather than physical (an area). So the one doesn't 
> exclude the other. 


For a bus station I would expect an area, maybe it does not have to be 
exclusive (mix with other usage). I agree buildings are not required (major 
hubs will have them usually).


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> When deciding about rendering change of waterway=derelict_canal on
> osm-carto we are not sure what to do, because meaning of the tag is not
> clear for us:
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1003
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dderelict_canal
>
> What would help us is to know whether it's filled with water, is
> permanently dry or have some intermittent/seasonal pattern.
>
> What do you think is the meaning of this tag and how could this
> definition be improved?

I think that it could be improved by deprecating it.

Use more modern lifecycle tagging.

disused:waterway=canal - could be put back into service,
presumably still holds water.

abandoned:waterway=canal - likely to have siltation,
be intermittent, or be drained - this one may need
additional tags to disambiguate whether it actually
contains water.

demolished:waterway=canal - filled in, but still signs
on the ground

I have a historically significant demolished canal locally;
the route is often overlaid by roads,
footpaths or cycleways and sometimes submerged.
Ruined locks, aqueducts, towpaths are still usually
visible on the ground. The individual sections are tagged
with one of the above if appropriate (some of the
places where the abandoned canal is overlaid with
highways simply are tagged as highways). There's
a route=canal relation that groups the entire set of ways.

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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Johnparis]

Ah, good, the Moroccan photos were quite a mish-mash.

The one you just posted is indeed a bus station. And sort of a classic one
at that -- it has both intercity and regional lines (lines that extend well
beyond the city limits but aren't long-distance lines). Also, intracity
lines have stops in front of the station (apparently they don't have the
right to enter). The bus station in Casablanca is similar. (My introduction
to OSM was mapping the bus routes in Casablanca and Marrakesh.)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126153259

The Eurolines photo is the interior of the Metro Gallieni bus station I
mentioned earlier in this thread. It's in my neighborhood, so I am very
familiar with it. Again, no intracity lines -- in fact, only international
lines to my knowledge. But there is an extensive complex just outside for
the intracity/regional buses, as well as a major metro station underground.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288328434

The close case, to me, would be something like this:

http://artheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/8-L15Est-FortAubervilliers-2.jpg

The "pôle bus" will have two dedicated bus lanes and probably four to six
shelters/stops. Two facts argue in favor of this as a bus station:

-- multiple lines converge there
-- there is at least one dedicated bus lane

There is no building associated with it. Most bus stations that I map don't
have a building.

Another thing to consider: the stop area, which I also mentioned above, is
logical (a relation) rather than physical (an area). So the one doesn't
exclude the other.

Best,

John













On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> 2018-04-09 18:05 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> Or also like this:
>> https://www.alamy.de/fotos-bilder/bus-moroccan.html
>>
>
>
>
> sorry, wrong link, I meant to post: https://www.alamy.de/
> stockfoto-warteschlangen-am-busbahnhof-marrakesch-33054989.html
>
> Martin
>
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[Tagging] waterway=derelict_canal

[Daniel Koć]

When deciding about rendering change of waterway=derelict_canal on
osm-carto we are not sure what to do, because meaning of the tag is not
clear for us:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1003

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dderelict_canal

What would help us is to know whether it's filled with water, is
permanently dry or have some intermittent/seasonal pattern.

What do you think is the meaning of this tag and how could this
definition be improved?


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 18:05 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> Or also like this:
> https://www.alamy.de/fotos-bilder/bus-moroccan.html
>



sorry, wrong link, I meant to post:
https://www.alamy.de/stockfoto-warteschlangen-am-busbahnhof-marrakesch-33054989.html

Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 15:24 GMT+02:00 Wiklund Johan :

> I think there is no realistic distinction to be made between a bus station
> and a "regular" bus stop. Mainly because each bus stop is different from
> the next. One could argue that any bus stop where more than one waiting
> area is a bus station, or if it has some kind of amenity tied to it like a
> waiting room or toilets. But any stop can have an amenity, and the most
> rural and amenity-free stop can support several buses and have multiple
> waiting areas.




just to make sure we are talking about the same things, these are some
images of bus stations:
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-zob-central-bus-station-person-real-people-bus-coach-street-scene-78608111.html
https://www.lanuovariviera.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/pullman.jpg
https://cheaptravelforwomen.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/cheaptravelforwomeneurolinesparis.jpg


Or also like this:
https://www.alamy.de/fotos-bilder/bus-moroccan.html


Is this the same you are writing about?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 15:14 GMT+02:00 Daniel Koć :

> W dniu 09.04.2018 o 14:15, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
>
> maybe it could be tagged as garden with fee and a (new) subtype? For
> reference, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:type
> e.g. garden:type=garden_show or flower_show
>
>
> There's also another property of gardens and it sounds even better for me
> - what it looks like (like zen, rosarium, herb_garden), not where it
> belongs and how it's operated (like residential or botanical):
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:style
>



yes I know, for "flower_show" I would use garden:type

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Johnparis]

Your point about stopping in traffic is a good one, and it dovetails with
the notion that a bus station (amenity) normally includes one or more
dedicated bus lanes. Perhaps that can be added to the wiki.

Smaller places and/or transfer points are well covered by the Stop Area
concept, which the wiki page might link to.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport=stop_area

Just today I created a bus station that might be better done as a stop
area. Comments welcome.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/578003955

The dedicated bus lane had already been tagged "gare routière" (French for
bus station).


On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 3:24 PM, Wiklund Johan 
wrote:

> I think there is no realistic distinction to be made between a bus station
> and a "regular" bus stop. Mainly because each bus stop is different from
> the next. One could argue that any bus stop where more than one waiting
> area is a bus station, or if it has some kind of amenity tied to it like a
> waiting room or toilets. But any stop can have an amenity, and the most
> rural and amenity-free stop can support several buses and have multiple
> waiting areas. We also have an example with tour bus stops in front of a
> tourist attraction: they may be far larger and better than most so called
> bus stations even. Should they be bus station too?
>
> I clearly see the usefulness of having big and small bus stops, but to
> give them a definition that works on a step-free scale of difference
> worldwide is always going to be hard.
>
> I think I personally would prefer a large bus stop as an area exclusively
> for used public transport bus activity (potentially in combination with
> taxi) and the smaller bus stop as a place where a bus can stop among other
> traffic. But that's my wish and may not be 1:1 with the current modeling of
> stops.
>
> (by large and small bus stops I'm thinking about the way they are rendered)
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Townsend [mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com]
> Sent: mandag 9. april 2018 13.43
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station
>
> On 09/04/2018 11:55, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > Currently definition at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
> > is unclear, it fits two cases
> >
> > * intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
> >to railway=station)
> > * terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
> >here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)
> >
> > while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes
> > sense).
> >
> > Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?
> >
>
> Being a bus station or not has nothing to do with whether the routes from
> there are intercity or not (though often intercity routes will stop at a
> bus station rather than elsewhere) or whether bus routes terminate or not
> (though often they will).
>
> I suspect the wiki author is just trying to describe "what tends to happen
> at" a bus station rather than defining it.  The picture on the wiki is
> somewhat confusingly a combined tram and bus station; maybe pictures of
> more examples from more continents would help?
>
> Best Regards,
> Andu
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Wiklund Johan]

I think there is no realistic distinction to be made between a bus station and 
a "regular" bus stop. Mainly because each bus stop is different from the next. 
One could argue that any bus stop where more than one waiting area is a bus 
station, or if it has some kind of amenity tied to it like a waiting room or 
toilets. But any stop can have an amenity, and the most rural and amenity-free 
stop can support several buses and have multiple waiting areas. We also have an 
example with tour bus stops in front of a tourist attraction: they may be far 
larger and better than most so called bus stations even. Should they be bus 
station too?

I clearly see the usefulness of having big and small bus stops, but to give 
them a definition that works on a step-free scale of difference worldwide is 
always going to be hard.

I think I personally would prefer a large bus stop as an area exclusively for 
used public transport bus activity (potentially in combination with taxi) and 
the smaller bus stop as a place where a bus can stop among other traffic. But 
that's my wish and may not be 1:1 with the current modeling of stops.

(by large and small bus stops I'm thinking about the way they are rendered)



-Original Message-
From: Andy Townsend [mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com] 
Sent: mandag 9. april 2018 13.43
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

On 09/04/2018 11:55, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Currently definition at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
> is unclear, it fits two cases
>
> * intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
>to railway=station)
> * terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
>here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)
>
> while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes 
> sense).
>
> Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?
>

Being a bus station or not has nothing to do with whether the routes from there 
are intercity or not (though often intercity routes will stop at a bus station 
rather than elsewhere) or whether bus routes terminate or not (though often 
they will).

I suspect the wiki author is just trying to describe "what tends to happen at" 
a bus station rather than defining it.  The picture on the wiki is somewhat 
confusingly a combined tram and bus station; maybe pictures of more examples 
from more continents would help?

Best Regards,
Andu


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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 09.04.2018 o 14:15, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
> maybe it could be tagged as garden with fee and a (new) subtype? For
> reference, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:type
> e.g. garden:type=garden_show or flower_show

There's also another property of gardens and it sounds even better for
me - what it looks like (like zen, rosarium, herb_garden), not where it
belongs and how it's operated (like residential or botanical):

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:style

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]

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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 13:47 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout :

> But we're not talking about either farmland or a crop in this case. The
> flowers (or flowerbed, if you prefer) I'm talking about is actually a
> tourist attraction and is maintained for that purpose.
>


maybe it could be tagged as garden with fee and a (new) subtype? For
reference, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:type
e.g. garden:type=garden_show or flower_show

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 13:43 GMT+02:00 Daniel Koć :

> Maybe it sounds strange, but when analyzing the meaning of "garden" in
> OSM to make osm-carto rendering sane, I have found that size can vary a
> lot. It can be as small as flowerbed (but there are other plants than
> only flowers - this is commonly mistagged as "village green" BTW), but
> also a big botanical garden.
>


yes, but I would say a flowerbed is different, because when it becomes big,
it changes name and becomes a flower field. The thing with gardens is that
they come in different sizes and types, and there are subtags to further
specifiy the object.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Dave Swarthout]

But we're not talking about either farmland or a crop in this case. The
flowers (or flowerbed, if you prefer) I'm talking about is actually a
tourist attraction and is maintained for that purpose.

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> 2018-04-09 13:08 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :
>
>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 01:50:50 +
>> Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>>
>> > How about
>> > tourism=attraction
>> > attraction=flowers
>>
>> I think that man_made=flowerbed + tourism=attraction would be
>> preferable, it would allow tagging also flower fields that are not a
>> tourism attraction at all.
>>
>>
>
> +1, I would also prefer not creating a category for attractions which
> would then be defined as what they are by subtags, because everything can
> happen to be an attraction and it would ultimately lead to double tagging
> everything, an attraction version and not.
>
> For the flower field, maybe landuse=farmland with crop=* could also be an
> option?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 09.04.2018 o 02:28, John Willis pisze:
> Flowerbed? seems a little weird to tag 3000m2 as a flowerbed. But if
> it is approved I will use it.

Maybe it sounds strange, but when analyzing the meaning of "garden" in
OSM to make osm-carto rendering sane, I have found that size can vary a
lot. It can be as small as flowerbed (but there are other plants than
only flowers - this is commonly mistagged as "village green" BTW), but
also a big botanical garden.

I'm not sure however what is the best tagging for flower field.

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]



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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Andy Townsend]

On 09/04/2018 11:55, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Currently definition at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
is unclear, it fits two cases

* intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
   to railway=station)
* terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
   here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)

while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes
sense).

Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?



Being a bus station or not has nothing to do with whether the routes 
from there are intercity or not (though often intercity routes will stop 
at a bus station rather than elsewhere) or whether bus routes terminate 
or not (though often they will).


I suspect the wiki author is just trying to describe "what tends to 
happen at" a bus station rather than defining it.  The picture on the 
wiki is somewhat confusingly a combined tram and bus station; maybe 
pictures of more examples from more continents would help?


Best Regards,
Andu


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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 13:08 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 01:50:50 +
> Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>
> > How about
> > tourism=attraction
> > attraction=flowers
>
> I think that man_made=flowerbed + tourism=attraction would be
> preferable, it would allow tagging also flower fields that are not a
> tourism attraction at all.
>
>

+1, I would also prefer not creating a category for attractions which would
then be defined as what they are by subtags, because everything can happen
to be an attraction and it would ultimately lead to double tagging
everything, an attraction version and not.

For the flower field, maybe landuse=farmland with crop=* could also be an
option?


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Philip Barnes]

In BE a bus is a vehicle used for short local journeys, more 

On 9 April 2018 11:55:35 BST, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>Currently definition at
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
>is unclear, it fits two cases
>
>* intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
>  to railway=station)
>* terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
>  here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)
>
>while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes
>sense).
>
>Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Johnparis]

Not quite sure what you mean by "importance lower than railway=halt". A
halt is a place where a train doesn't normally stop unless a would-be rider
hails it. A bus stop that is so minor would certainly not qualify as a bus
station, and I don't think it would fit the definition in the wiki unless
you made a huge stretch. It certainly wouldn't resemble the photo or the
example given in the wiki.

A typical non-intercity bus terminal would be a place (as described in the
wiki) where several local lines converge, providing a transfer point. These
typically have lanes dedicated to bus traffic and multiple platforms
(...stands/wait_areas/dropoff-pickup-points...). They aren't intercity, but
they are of major importance.

In the Paris area, for instance, there is a major intercity terminal at
Metro Gallieni, serving intercity buses. That fits your description of what
you want to limit the tag to.

But Gare Saint-Lazare is a major convergence point for regional and
intracity buses. It fits the description I gave.

I think it should remain as an amenity=bus_station.

Best,

John

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-04-09 12:55 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :
>
>> Currently definition at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
>> is unclear, it fits two cases
>>
>> * intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
>>   to railway=station)
>> * terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
>>   here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)
>>
>> while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes
>> sense).
>>
>> Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?
>
>
>
>
> Sometimes (maybe not so rare in smaller cities) the 2 usages can be the
> same place.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 01:50:50 +
Dave Swarthout  wrote:

> How about
> tourism=attraction
> attraction=flowers

I think that man_made=flowerbed + tourism=attraction would be
preferable, it would allow tagging also flower fields that are not a
tourism attraction at all.

Though, there are also places where wild flowers are an attraction for
a part of the year (for example Crocus flowers in Tatra Mountains).

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Re: [Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 12:55 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> Currently definition at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
> is unclear, it fits two cases
>
> * intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
>   to railway=station)
> * terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
>   here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)
>
> while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes
> sense).
>
> Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?




Sometimes (maybe not so rare in smaller cities) the 2 usages can be the
same place.

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Unclear meaning of amenity=bus_station

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Currently definition at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbus_station
is unclear, it fits two cases

* intercity bus station (routes between cities, importance comparable
  to railway=station)
* terminus highway=bus_stop (routes within city terminate and start
  here, minor importance, importance lower than railway=halt)

while in my experience tag is used only in the first case (what makes
sense).

Would it be OK to edit wiki and restrict it only to the first meaning?

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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-09 9:32 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes :

> A museum just needs standard opening hours tagging.
>
>

then you wouldn't be able to distinguish between a museum that is a tourist
attraction only when open and one that is an attraction also when closed.
;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 04/09/2018 01:35 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 9. Apr 2018, at 08:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> humm ... for me it is only an attraction when in flower. So would
>> need some seasonal tagging with the tourism tag?
> 
> 
> 
> Following this logics, what about museums, aren’t they only
> attractions when open, and we should use conditional tagging?

Regarding museums, we have opening_hours=* for that, don't we?

While opening_hours=* wouldn't be appropriate for a flower field, some
tagging about the type of flower and possibly when it's expected to be
in bloom could be added.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Philip Barnes]

A museum just needs standard opening hours tagging.

The start of a flower season will vary from year to year. This year everything 
is really late. 

Phil (trigpoint) 



On 9 April 2018 07:35:07 BST, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 9. Apr 2018, at 08:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> humm ... for me it is only an attraction when in flower. So would
>need some seasonal tagging with the tourism tag?
>
>
>
>Following this logics, what about museums, aren’t they only attractions
>when open, and we should use conditional tagging?
>
>
>cheers,
>Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Apr 2018, at 08:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> humm ... for me it is only an attraction when in flower. So would need some 
> seasonal tagging with the tourism tag?



Following this logics, what about museums, aren’t they only attractions when 
open, and we should use conditional tagging?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Flower fields as tourism attraction

[Warin]

humm ... for me it is only an attraction when in flower. So would need 
some seasonal tagging with the tourism tag?


Flowers can be part of agriculture - grown for sale in florist shops for 
example.


On 09/04/18 11:50, Dave Swarthout wrote:

How about
tourism=attraction
attraction=flowers

There are similar areas in Thailand for sunflowers.

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018, 7:29 AM John Willis > wrote:


TL:DR - we need a “flower field” tag or a variant of flowerbed.
 tat is not related to farming, but more to garden or tourism.
This is a tag for the field itself, not the entire location, which
may need a garden:type=spectacle value to define it.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/flowerbed (yay!
more landuse= values!)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:type



I visited a tulip field In Japan yesterday; thousands of people
coming to take photographs of a field of flowers and the Dutch
windmill they built.
http://www.city.sakura.lg.jp/000674.html

This is very similar to the flower fields (and windmill) in
Calrlsbad, California - the tulips and other flowers grown are a
spectacle to attract visitors.
http://www.theflowerfields.com

It is not a commercial farm which happens to be pretty.  it is a
carefully planned place to attract tourists to see the flowers as
a spectacle - like a garden or park.

I understand that in Holland, those are commercial farms
(landuse=farmland crop=flowers), the beauty is incidental. But
people recreate the spectacle on a smaller scale as purely a
tourist attraction.

Similarly, Hitachinaka Park has a large hill which they rotate the
crop of flowers (Nemophila is the most popular) and tens of
thousands of people come to see the flowers every season.

I tagged the flower area on the hill a year or so ago - but was
unsure of how to tag the flowered ground. I left it untagged.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/378065849

Visible here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/23417161516/in/dateposted-public/ (
Fall).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11094010745/in/dateposted-public/ (
Spring) .

There are also large fields of colorful shibazakura that are
planted as a tourist attraction. in many large flower grounds.
In all these instances, the flower fields are a tourist
attraction. their primary purpose is similar to a botanical garden
- they are grown to be viewed - but in a garden/park like atmosphere.

These images are very popular online, especially the large field
near Mt Fuji. . https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=shibazakura

chichibu:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/23075345199/in/dateposted-public/

People may buy some flowers, but it is incidental - people
primarily come to see them. It’s not flower art - there is no
“image” grown into the flowers - the flowers themselves are the
attraction.

having it tagged as farmland seems wrong. It’s not a crop. It’s
not a plant nursery. It’s not a botanical garden.

 It’s not a “park” -  the entire location may be a form of
“garden” tagged as a tourist attraction, but the **field itself**
needs a tag.

Flowerbed? seems a little weird to tag 3000m2 as a flowerbed. But
if it is approved I will use it.

Suggestions?

Javbw


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