[Tagging] traffic park (scaled down streets) - page with summary

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I created

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/scaled_down_streets_that_may_be_used_for_traffic_safety_education_or_as_a_type_of_a_playground
 


to keep informations gathered during discussion 
about traffic parks in form that is usable in the future.

If previous link was unusably long there is also shorter form:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/traffic_park 


I invite everybody to add to that page anything that I missed.
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Re: [Tagging] Marking shops open on trade-free Sundays?

[Erkin Alp Güney]

We have a similar thing in Turkey, but only for two days a year: May
day, Republic day(October 29th). Unlike in Polish situation, large
businesses can buy a license to open in these days, too.

27-04-2018 02:11 tarihinde Mateusz Konieczny yazdı:
>
>
>
> 26. Apr 2018 19:44 by erkinalp9...@gmail.com
> :
>
> shop=basic might be a good fit.
>
>
> A very very bad idea. Tagging bakery shop=bakery
>
> everywhere and shop=basic in Poland is absurd.
>
>
> based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping :
> sunday_shopping = yes/no ?
> sunday_trading = yes/no ?
>
> or maybe
>
> open_on_sunday=yes/no ?
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Marking shops open on trade-free Sundays?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. Apr 2018 19:44 by erkinalp9...@gmail.com :


> shop=basic might be a good fit.
>




A very very bad idea. Tagging bakery shop=bakery 


everywhere and shop=basic in Poland is absurd.




based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping 
 :
sunday_shopping = yes/no ? 
sunday_trading = yes/no ?

or maybe

open_on_sunday=yes/no ?

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Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[Andrew Davidson]

https://www.ausgrid.com.au/Common/Customer-Services/In-your-neighbourhood/Network-projects/Kiosks-and-pillars/Kiosk-substations.aspx

Still wouldn't recommend the use of the word.

On 27/4/18 08:23, Warin wrote:

The use of the word 'kiosk' may be a jargon use within the power industry?
Or it could be that the size is similar to a normal 'kiosk'?
Maybe the original user could provide some information as to the true 
source?


On 26/04/18 20:33, nwastra wrote:
Australians also know a kiosk as a small selling booth for small 
articles e.g. newspapers, sweets, drinks often found on central city 
railway stations.


N

On 26 Apr 2018, at 8:22 pm, James > wrote:



@Peter, Same here in Canada. No one calls a substation a kiosk here

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 6:16 AM Peter Elderson, > wrote:


    Looks like it's australian, to call a power substation a power
    kiosk. It converts the high voltage to low voltage and
    distributes power to households. Just 'kiosk' is confusing to me.
    Dutch: kiosk=small selling booth for small articles e.g.
    newspapers, sweets, drinks. Mainly found on railway stations.

    2018-04-26 11:56 GMT+02:00 John Sturdy >:

    To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't
    seem to be the right word for these.  A kiosk is normally
    something that *is* large enough for a person to enter
    (typically, someone selling something through a hatch).

    __John


    On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y.
    > wrote:

    It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
    El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe
    > escribió:

    Hi,

    Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was
    opened on talk page of power=substation key.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Kiosk_substations_in_street_cabinets 



    Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated
    mentionned wiki pages (with French version when
    available) with man_made=street_cabinet.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values 


    https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet


    location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and
    it's encouraged to replace it manually and carefully
    with man_made=street_cabinet + street_cabinet=power

    location key can now be used everytime to give the
    right substation/transformer's location, in cabinet
    or not.
    We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this :
    man_made=street_cabinet
    street_cabinet=power
    power=substation
    substation=minor_distribution
    location=underground or indoor or ...

    All the best

    François

    2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe
    >:

    Hi

    The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable
    to map items described with power=substation +
    location=kiosk.
    They are actual small cabinets like those where
    no technician can enter to work (opposite of
    building) :

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg


    Street cabinet is the container while substation
    is the function.

    Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples

    power=substation
    substation=minor_distribution
    location=kiosk

    I propose to update it as such :
    man_made=street_cabinet
    street_cabinet=power
    power=substation
    substation=minor_distribution
    location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is
    located)

    It works both for nodes or areas.
    Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back
    to give 

Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[Warin]

The use of the word 'kiosk' may be a jargon use within the power industry?
Or it could be that the size is similar to a normal 'kiosk'?
Maybe the original user could provide some information as to the true 
source?


On 26/04/18 20:33, nwastra wrote:
Australians also know a kiosk as a small selling booth for small 
articles e.g. newspapers, sweets, drinks often found on central city 
railway stations.


N

On 26 Apr 2018, at 8:22 pm, James > wrote:



@Peter, Same here in Canada. No one calls a substation a kiosk here

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 6:16 AM Peter Elderson, > wrote:


Looks like it's australian, to call a power substation a power
kiosk. It converts the high voltage to low voltage and
distributes power to households. Just 'kiosk' is confusing to me.
Dutch: kiosk=small selling booth for small articles e.g.
newspapers, sweets, drinks. Mainly found on railway stations.

2018-04-26 11:56 GMT+02:00 John Sturdy >:

To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't
seem to be the right word for these.  A kiosk is normally
something that *is* large enough for a person to enter
(typically, someone selling something through a hatch).

__John


On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y.
> wrote:

It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe
> escribió:

Hi,

Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was
opened on talk page of power=substation key.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Kiosk_substations_in_street_cabinets

Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated
mentionned wiki pages (with French version when
available) with man_made=street_cabinet.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet

location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and
it's encouraged to replace it manually and carefully
with man_made=street_cabinet + street_cabinet=power

location key can now be used everytime to give the
right substation/transformer's location, in cabinet
or not.
We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this :
man_made=street_cabinet
street_cabinet=power
power=substation
substation=minor_distribution
location=underground or indoor or ...

All the best

François

2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe
>:

Hi

The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable
to map items described with power=substation +
location=kiosk.
They are actual small cabinets like those where
no technician can enter to work (opposite of
building) :

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg

Street cabinet is the container while substation
is the function.

Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples
power=substation
substation=minor_distribution
location=kiosk

I propose to update it as such :
man_made=street_cabinet
street_cabinet=power
power=substation
substation=minor_distribution
location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is
located)

It works both for nodes or areas.
Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back
to give cabinet position instead of substation
design (there was issues to tag underground
kiosks for instance)
There are 7k objects in db:

Re: [Tagging] Marking shops open on trade-free Sundays?

[Erkin Alp Güney]

shop=basic might be a good fit.


26-04-2018 20:11 tarihinde Michał Brzozowski yazdı:
> Recently a law has been passed on Poland which restricts shops that
> can be open on trade-free Sundays (currently 2 per month, in 2020 all). 
> There is already a few apps (search keyword is "sklepy otwarte w
> niedzielę" ) which crowdsource shops that are open during such
> Sundays*. But they are not based on OSM.
>
> * "The law applies to all stores, except those where the owner is the
> sole worker in the store, stores located in train stations, airports,
> ports, as well as florists, bakeries (until 13.00), ice cream sellers,
> sellers of religious items, ticket sellers, newspaper sellers, post
> offices, tobacco sellers." 
> (Wikipedia)
>
>
> This is a great opportunity (and the need has been raised) for OSM to
> incorporate such data.
>
> How should we map such shops? An extension of opening_hours feels
> wrong - many (most?) clients stop on parsing when they encounter
> something they don't understand.
>
> It seems for now the best solution would be to invent a tag, but which
> term should we use for it to be proper English?
>
> Michał
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] [Documentation] RFC - man_made=pumping_station

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 5:14 PM, marc marc 
wrote:

>
> > pumping_station=sewage
>
> is pumping_station only a duplicate key for substance ?
> it look like useless
>

I suspect pumping_station=sewage was the original way of tagging it but then
the pipeline people decided substance=sewage was better.  Taginfo has 883
uses  of pumping_station and only 165 pumping_station=sewage.  Taginfo has
1097 uses of substance=sewage, but a lot of those could be pipelines and
manholes, to which it also applies.  It can probably be deleted but I'll
wait
until I'm happy about all the other changes before I do it,to give somebody
who lived through those changes a chance to say why it should remain.

>
> > 1) Tag actual buildings housing pump machinery as building=service
> > as well as man_made=pumping_station etc.  This approach can be
> > found here http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/439149633
>
> if the pump is inside the building, it's of course a good idea to map
> the building.
>

Indeed.  But only required if the building is all there is to the pumping
station, to give an object to apply man_made=pumping_station to.  If
it's just one building amongst a collection of stuff, it's nice to add it
with
building=service but could be omitted if the aerial imagery isn't clear.


> PS : the name look like fake.
>

It could be real.  Not a problem if it's not.

>
> > 2) Tag an area, which may be a single building, or a fence around one
> > or more buildings (and possibly other stuff) as landuse=industrial.  This
> > approach can be found here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/488574374
>
> a pump for a residential area in a street cabinet or in a small building
> is imho not an industrial landuse.
>

Yeah, I'm not happy tagging a cabinet that way.  Single building I'm not so
sure of.  If it's not industrial landuse in an urban environment is it
industrial
in a rural one?

Which is why building=service is probably better in that case.  Anybody
know what the appropriate tag is for a cabinet (Australians, please don't
say "kiosk").

> 7) Other.
>
> I'm not sure that we need to document "map the building if it as a
> building" but why not.
>

Because it's not obvious.  It's natural to assume that a wiki page which
tells you how to tag something tells you everything you need to know.
Otherwise people end up making up their own solutions, or keep asking
in the forum, or get frustrated because it doesn't work, or they end up
researching it as best they can then proposing a documentation change
on this mailing list.


> I think we should advise each method when it is the most appropriate:-)
> a cabinet or a building without a landuse if it's only a cabinet or
> building
> an area with a landuse if it's an area = more than only a building (2 or
> more building and/or space around the building also "used" for the station)
>

I'd say what makes it landuse is more than one object and there's a fence
around those objects.  In borderline cases even a single building with a
fence can probably be mapped as landuse because there may be
underground objects within the fence that the mapper is unaware of.

I wonder when we're going to decide what to call large street cabinets. :)

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] Marking shops open on trade-free Sundays?

[Michał Brzozowski]

Recently a law has been passed on Poland which restricts shops that can be
open on trade-free Sundays (currently 2 per month, in 2020 all).
There is already a few apps (search keyword is "sklepy otwarte w niedzielę"
) which crowdsource shops that are open during such Sundays*. But they are
not based on OSM.

* "The law applies to all stores, except those where the owner is the sole
worker in the store, stores located in train stations, airports, ports, as
well as florists, bakeries (until 13.00), ice cream sellers, sellers of
religious items, ticket sellers, newspaper sellers, post offices, tobacco
sellers."
(Wikipedia)


This is a great opportunity (and the need has been raised) for OSM to
incorporate such data.

How should we map such shops? An extension of opening_hours feels wrong -
many (most?) clients stop on parsing when they encounter something they
don't understand.

It seems for now the best solution would be to invent a tag, but which term
should we use for it to be proper English?

Michał
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Re: [Tagging] [Documentation] RFC - man_made=pumping_station

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 26/04/2018 14:52, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> Although other updates I made at the same time were rendered, the pumping
> station wasn't.
>
>
> ... on some maps.  It'll appear on others, such as:
>
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=20=
> 52.0821841=-4.657313 *
>
> I wouldn't let the fact that one map style has problems with certain kinds
> of infrastructure influence tagging.
>

Yeah, but I think it sub-optimal to have to point people at a particular
renderer to see something.  I'm a
"Best viewed on any renderer" kind of guy. :)  Even though I think that
your rendering is, overall, better
than the standard one, I doubt you'd want the extra traffic if everyone
used it.


> Generally speaking mappers are pretty good at figuring out when a building
> or a landuse tag is needed in addition to an existing feature tag.


As I did.  By finding a few examples with overpass-turbo after finding that
the wiki didn't cut it, nor did iD's presets.
In general, the easier it is to find the right way to do it, the more
likely it is to be done right.


> Outright " falsehoods to fool the renderer" are actually pretty rare.


I wanted to make it clear I didn't consider either of those approaches to
commit the sin of tagging for the renderer
(even if that's the real reason why they were used).


> Of course by all means try and improve the wiki page for a particular
> feature explaining how people map things (buildings vs non-buildings).
> This probably means I'm agreeing with "4" of your list of 7,


Number 4 was my second choice.


> but TBH anything that improves the wik iand reflects current tagging would
> be good.
>

I'll wait to see a few more comments before I conclude that it is
considered by most to
be an improvement.

* the fact that it currently appears on that map in English rather than
Welsh is actually a bug, but that's a different issue...

Since I don't speak a word of Welsh, I consider that a feature rather than
a bug. :)

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Documentation] RFC - man_made=pumping_station

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/04/2018 14:52, Paul Allen wrote:

Although other updates I made at the same time were rendered, the pumping
station wasn't.


... on some maps.  It'll appear on others, such as:

https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=20=52.0821841=-4.657313 
*


I wouldn't let the fact that one map style has problems with certain 
kinds of infrastructure influence tagging.  Generally speaking mappers 
are pretty good at figuring out when a building or a landuse tag is 
needed in addition to an existing feature tag.  Outright " falsehoods to 
fool the renderer" are actually pretty rare.  Of course by all means try 
and improve the wiki page for a particular feature explaining how people 
map things (buildings vs non-buildings).  This probably means I'm 
agreeing with "4" of your list of 7, but TBH anything that improves the 
wik iand reflects current tagging would be good.


Best Regards,
Andy


* the fact that it currently appears on that map in English rather than 
Welsh is actually a bug, but that's a different issue...
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - carpet hanger

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I started voting on proposal how carpet hangers should be tagged:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/carpet_hanger 

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Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[marc marc]

imho it's a building
it'sn't need that the technician can really go in depending on the 
volume of material inside, the tag building concerns the apaprence (if I 
fill my garage to the point where I can no longer go in, it still 
remains a building=garage)

Le 26. 04. 18 à 13:06, Marc Gemis a écrit :
> what about this type:
> https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2018/2018-02-04-Ursel-Knesselare/i-RG4KSmn/A
>   ?
> 
> they are pretty common in Belgium.
> I have no idea whether the technician can enter should a "building" or not ?
> 
> m
> 
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:23 PM, François Lacombe
>  wrote:
>> HI
>>
>> 2018-04-25 21:30 GMT+02:00 Michael Reichert :
>>>
>>> I think that small substations are not street cabinets because they are
>>> much larger than street cabinets and are usually not located on the
>>> sidewalk but next to it on a separate area.
>>
>>
>> Main difference between buildings and cabinets (street or not) is that
>> technicians can enter in a building but not in a cabinet.
>> man_made=street_cabinet was mainly intended for cabinets located in streets
>> (not necessairly on sidewalks) but can actually cover cabinets in private
>> areas.
>>
>> location=kiosk raises terminology questions and prevent to give the actual
>> location of the cabinet when a substation is in it.
>> That's why using man_made=street_cabinet is more consistent with local
>> distribution substations not installed in a proper building.
>>
>> This is one of such for example :
>> https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.8095526,6.209416,3a,38.7y,76.67h,76.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU25e1MIwSgn9hE0L-hjw8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[Marc Gemis]

what about this type:
https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2018/2018-02-04-Ursel-Knesselare/i-RG4KSmn/A
 ?

they are pretty common in Belgium.
I have no idea whether the technician can enter should a "building" or not ?

m

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:23 PM, François Lacombe
 wrote:
> HI
>
> 2018-04-25 21:30 GMT+02:00 Michael Reichert :
>>
>> I think that small substations are not street cabinets because they are
>> much larger than street cabinets and are usually not located on the
>> sidewalk but next to it on a separate area.
>
>
> Main difference between buildings and cabinets (street or not) is that
> technicians can enter in a building but not in a cabinet.
> man_made=street_cabinet was mainly intended for cabinets located in streets
> (not necessairly on sidewalks) but can actually cover cabinets in private
> areas.
>
> location=kiosk raises terminology questions and prevent to give the actual
> location of the cabinet when a substation is in it.
> That's why using man_made=street_cabinet is more consistent with local
> distribution substations not installed in a proper building.
>
> This is one of such for example :
> https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.8095526,6.209416,3a,38.7y,76.67h,76.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU25e1MIwSgn9hE0L-hjw8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[Christian Müller]

> 2018-04-26 03:23 PDT -07:00 François Lacombe :
> 
> location=kiosk raises terminology questions and prevent to give
> the actual location of the cabinet when a substation is in it.
> That's why using man_made=street_cabinet is more consistent with
> local distribution substations not installed in a proper building.

If street_cabinet is used to tag substations in kiosk format (which
usually is considerably larger than a street cabinet), then it will
loose its value in discrimnating "core" street cabinet objects.

Substations are attributed kiosk if they almost share size or volume
with a legacy kiosk that sells stuff - often not in height, but in
length + width.  Admittedly, the location key may not be the best
place to put a dimension-describing value in.

Kiosk substations may have space to house a technician, but inner
equipment may fill the space to the point that there is not much
room behind the panel doors.

Because they often lack entrances for humans and the roof commonly
is undistinguishable from its walls (spare its location), it may
feel strange to some to speak of them as buildings.


Greetings


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Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[ael]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:56:55AM +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
> To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't seem to be the
> right word for these.  A kiosk is normally something that *is* large enough
> for a person to enter (typically, someone selling something through a
> hatch).

+1

ael


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Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[nwastra]

Australians also know a kiosk as a small selling booth for small articles e.g. 
newspapers, sweets, drinks often found on central city railway stations.

N

> On 26 Apr 2018, at 8:22 pm, James  wrote:
> 
> @Peter, Same here in Canada. No one calls a substation a kiosk here
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 6:16 AM Peter Elderson,  wrote:
>> Looks like it's australian, to call a power substation a power kiosk. It 
>> converts the high voltage to low voltage and distributes power to 
>> households. Just 'kiosk' is confusing to me. 
>> Dutch: kiosk=small selling booth for small articles e.g. newspapers, sweets, 
>> drinks. Mainly found on railway stations.
>> 
>> 2018-04-26 11:56 GMT+02:00 John Sturdy :
>>> To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't seem to be the 
>>> right word for these.  A kiosk is normally something that *is* large enough 
>>> for a person to enter (typically, someone selling something through a 
>>> hatch).
>>> 
>>> __John
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
 It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
 El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe 
  escribió:
 Hi,
 
 Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was opened on talk page 
 of power=substation key.
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Kiosk_substations_in_street_cabinets
 
 Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated mentionned wiki pages 
 (with French version when available) with man_made=street_cabinet.
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
 
 location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and it's encouraged to 
 replace it manually and carefully with man_made=street_cabinet + 
 street_cabinet=power
 
 location key can now be used everytime to give the right 
 substation/transformer's location, in cabinet or not.
 We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this : 
 man_made=street_cabinet
 street_cabinet=power
 power=substation
 substation=minor_distribution
 location=underground or indoor or ...
 
 All the best
 
 François
 
 2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe :
 Hi
 
 The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable to map items described 
 with power=substation + location=kiosk.
 They are actual small cabinets like those where no technician can enter to 
 work (opposite of building) : 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg
 
 Street cabinet is the container while substation is the function. 
 
 Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples
 power=substation
 substation=minor_distribution 
 location=kiosk
 
 I propose to update it as such :
 man_made=street_cabinet
 street_cabinet=power
 power=substation
 substation=minor_distribution
 location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is located)
 
 It works both for nodes or areas.
 Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back to give cabinet position 
 instead of substation design (there was issues to tag underground kiosks 
 for instance) 
 There are 7k objects in db:
 https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/location=kiosk
 
 Pages to update are :
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
 
 How do you feel about it ?
 
 There are no need of a time consuming formal proposal to deal with this 
 question.
 Without further coments, i will update wiki pages in 15 days.
 No automated edits.
 
 Thanks for your time
 
 François
 
 
 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 
 El mié., 25 de abril de 2018 21:32, Michael Reichert 
  escribió:
> Hi,
> 
> while adding a substation to OSM yesterday I looked up the possible
> values of location=* and missed kiosk. A short glance in the history
> showes that it removed location=kiosk from the page on 

Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[François Lacombe]

HI

2018-04-25 21:30 GMT+02:00 Michael Reichert :

> I think that small substations are not street cabinets because they are
> much larger than street cabinets and are usually not located on the
> sidewalk but next to it on a separate area.
>

Main difference between buildings and cabinets (street or not) is that
technicians can enter in a building but not in a cabinet.
man_made=street_cabinet was mainly intended for cabinets located in streets
(not necessairly on sidewalks) but can actually cover cabinets in private
areas.

location=kiosk raises terminology questions and prevent to give the actual
location of the cabinet when a substation is in it.
That's why using man_made=street_cabinet is more consistent with local
distribution substations not installed in a proper building.

This is one of such for example :
https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.8095526,6.209416,3a,38.7y,76.67h,76.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU25e1MIwSgn9hE0L-hjw8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


All the best

François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[marc marc]

if the "cabinet" is large enough for a person to enter,
it's better to use building=*
a cabinet only host hardware, it isn't git enought to allow a person to 
enter.
in both case location=kiosk is imho wrong.


Le 26. 04. 18 à 12:14, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> Looks like it's australian, to call a power substation a power kiosk. It 
> converts the high voltage to low voltage and distributes power to 
> households. Just 'kiosk' is confusing to me.
> Dutch: kiosk=small selling booth for small articles e.g. newspapers, 
> sweets, drinks. Mainly found on railway stations.
> 
> 2018-04-26 11:56 GMT+02:00 John Sturdy  >:
> 
> To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't seem to
> be the right word for these.  A kiosk is normally something that
> *is* large enough for a person to enter (typically, someone selling
> something through a hatch).
> 
> __John
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y.  > wrote:
> 
> It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
> El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe
> >
> escribió:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was opened
> on talk page of power=substation key.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Kiosk_substations_in_street_cabinets
> 
> 
> 
> Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated mentionned
> wiki pages (with French version when available) with
> man_made=street_cabinet.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values
> 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
> 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
> 
> 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
> 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
> 
> 
> 
> location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and it's
> encouraged to replace it manually and carefully with
> man_made=street_cabinet + street_cabinet=power
> 
> location key can now be used everytime to give the right
> substation/transformer's location, in cabinet or not.
> We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this :
> man_made=street_cabinet
> street_cabinet=power
> power=substation
> substation=minor_distribution
> location=underground or indoor or ...
> 
> All the best
> 
> François
> 
> 2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe
> >:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable to map
> items described with power=substation + location=kiosk.
> They are actual small cabinets like those where no
> technician can enter to work (opposite of building) :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Street cabinet is the container while substation is the
> function.
> 
> Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples
> 
> 
> power=substation
> substation=minor_distribution
> location=kiosk
> 
> I propose to update it as such :
> man_made=street_cabinet
> street_cabinet=power
> power=substation
> substation=minor_distribution
> location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is located)
> 
> It works both for nodes or areas.
> Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back to give
> cabinet position instead of substation design (there was
> issues to tag underground 

Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[James]

@Peter, Same here in Canada. No one calls a substation a kiosk here

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 6:16 AM Peter Elderson,  wrote:

> Looks like it's australian, to call a power substation a power kiosk. It
> converts the high voltage to low voltage and distributes power to
> households. Just 'kiosk' is confusing to me.
> Dutch: kiosk=small selling booth for small articles e.g. newspapers,
> sweets, drinks. Mainly found on railway stations.
>
> 2018-04-26 11:56 GMT+02:00 John Sturdy :
>
>> To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't seem to be
>> the right word for these.  A kiosk is normally something that *is* large
>> enough for a person to enter (typically, someone selling something through
>> a hatch).
>>
>> __John
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y. 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
>>> El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe <
>>> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was opened on talk
>>> page of power=substation key.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Kiosk_substations_in_street_cabinets
>>>
>>> Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated mentionned wiki pages
>>> (with French version when available) with man_made=street_cabinet.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>>>
>>> location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and it's encouraged to
>>> replace it manually and carefully with man_made=street_cabinet +
>>> street_cabinet=power
>>>
>>> location key can now be used everytime to give the right
>>> substation/transformer's location, in cabinet or not.
>>> We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this :
>>> man_made=street_cabinet
>>> street_cabinet=power
>>> power=substation
>>> substation=minor_distribution
>>> location=underground or indoor or ...
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> 2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe :
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable to map items described
>>> with power=substation + location=kiosk.
>>> They are actual small cabinets like those where no technician can enter
>>> to work (opposite of building) :
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg
>>>
>>> Street cabinet is the container while substation is the function.
>>>
>>> Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples
>>> power=substation
>>> substation=minor_distribution
>>> location=kiosk
>>>
>>> I propose to update it as such :
>>> man_made=street_cabinet
>>> street_cabinet=power
>>> power=substation
>>> substation=minor_distribution
>>> location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is located)
>>>
>>> It works both for nodes or areas.
>>> Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back to give cabinet position
>>> instead of substation design (there was issues to tag underground kiosks
>>> for instance)
>>> There are 7k objects in db:
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/location=kiosk
>>>
>>> Pages to update are :
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Location_values
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>>>
>>> How do you feel about it ?
>>>
>>> There are no need of a time consuming formal proposal to deal with this
>>> question.
>>> Without further coments, i will update wiki pages in 15 days.
>>> No automated edits.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your time
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>> El mié., 25 de abril de 2018 21:32, Michael Reichert <
>>> osm...@michreichert.de> escribió:
>>>
 Hi,

 while adding a substation to OSM yesterday I looked up the possible
 values of location=* and missed kiosk. A short glance in the history
 showes that it removed location=kiosk from the page on 2018-01-02. The
 edit description mentions man_made=street_cabinet+street_cabinet=power
 as a replacement.


 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:power%3Dsubstation=1542685

 location=kiosk was introduced by the approved Substation Refinement
 Proposal in 2013.

 

Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[Peter Elderson]

Looks like it's australian, to call a power substation a power kiosk. It
converts the high voltage to low voltage and distributes power to
households. Just 'kiosk' is confusing to me.
Dutch: kiosk=small selling booth for small articles e.g. newspapers,
sweets, drinks. Mainly found on railway stations.

2018-04-26 11:56 GMT+02:00 John Sturdy :

> To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't seem to be the
> right word for these.  A kiosk is normally something that *is* large enough
> for a person to enter (typically, someone selling something through a
> hatch).
>
> __John
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y. 
> wrote:
>
>> It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
>> El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe <
>> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was opened on talk page
>> of power=substation key.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstat
>> ion#Kiosk_substations_in_street_cabinets
>>
>> Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated mentionned wiki pages
>> (with French version when available) with man_made=street_cabinet.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#
>> Location_values
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>>
>> location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and it's encouraged to
>> replace it manually and carefully with man_made=street_cabinet +
>> street_cabinet=power
>>
>> location key can now be used everytime to give the right
>> substation/transformer's location, in cabinet or not.
>> We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this :
>> man_made=street_cabinet
>> street_cabinet=power
>> power=substation
>> substation=minor_distribution
>> location=underground or indoor or ...
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> 2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe :
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable to map items described
>> with power=substation + location=kiosk.
>> They are actual small cabinets like those where no technician can enter
>> to work (opposite of building) : https://wiki.openstreetmap.o
>> rg/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg
>>
>> Street cabinet is the container while substation is the function.
>>
>> Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples
>> power=substation
>> substation=minor_distribution
>> location=kiosk
>>
>> I propose to update it as such :
>> man_made=street_cabinet
>> street_cabinet=power
>> power=substation
>> substation=minor_distribution
>> location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is located)
>>
>> It works both for nodes or areas.
>> Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back to give cabinet position
>> instead of substation design (there was issues to tag underground kiosks
>> for instance)
>> There are 7k objects in db:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/location=kiosk
>>
>> Pages to update are :
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#
>> Location_values
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>>
>> How do you feel about it ?
>>
>> There are no need of a time consuming formal proposal to deal with this
>> question.
>> Without further coments, i will update wiki pages in 15 days.
>> No automated edits.
>>
>> Thanks for your time
>>
>> François
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>> El mié., 25 de abril de 2018 21:32, Michael Reichert <
>> osm...@michreichert.de> escribió:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> while adding a substation to OSM yesterday I looked up the possible
>>> values of location=* and missed kiosk. A short glance in the history
>>> showes that it removed location=kiosk from the page on 2018-01-02. The
>>> edit description mentions man_made=street_cabinet+street_cabinet=power
>>> as a replacement.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:power%
>>> 3Dsubstation=1542685
>>>
>>> location=kiosk was introduced by the approved Substation Refinement
>>> Proposal in 2013.
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Substa
>>> tion_refinement#Substation
>>>
>>> man_made=street_cabinet was introduced by the Street Cabinet Proposal in
>>> 2014.
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet
>>> This proposal does not mention substations or transformers at 

Re: [Tagging] When was the deprecation of location=kiosk for power=substation discussed?

[John Sturdy]

To me, as a native British-English speaker, "kiosk" doesn't seem to be the
right word for these.  A kiosk is normally something that *is* large enough
for a person to enter (typically, someone selling something through a
hatch).

__John


On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:53 PM, José G Moya Y.  wrote:

> It was François Lacombe on this list 9n Jan 2, 2018.
> El mié., 3 de enero de 2018 0:14, François Lacombe <
> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
> Hi,
>
> Regarding this location=kiosk topic, a discussion was opened on talk page
> of power=substation key.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Kiosk_
> substations_in_street_cabinets
>
> Since no big issue has been raised, I've updated mentionned wiki pages
> (with French version when available) with man_made=street_cabinet.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%
> 3Dtransformer#Location_values
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>
> location=kiosk is not a recommended value anymore and it's encouraged to
> replace it manually and carefully with man_made=street_cabinet +
> street_cabinet=power
>
> location key can now be used everytime to give the right
> substation/transformer's location, in cabinet or not.
> We can have underground or indoor cabinets like this :
> man_made=street_cabinet
> street_cabinet=power
> power=substation
> substation=minor_distribution
> location=underground or indoor or ...
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> 2017-11-04 11:45 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe :
>
> Hi
>
> The man_made=street_cabinet key sounds suitable to map items described
> with power=substation + location=kiosk.
> They are actual small cabinets like those where no technician can enter to
> work (opposite of building) : https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/File:10kV_trafo_kiosk.jpg
>
> Street cabinet is the container while substation is the function.
>
> Wiki example on this page gives follwing tags:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Examples
> power=substation
> substation=minor_distribution
> location=kiosk
>
> I propose to update it as such :
> man_made=street_cabinet
> street_cabinet=power
> power=substation
> substation=minor_distribution
> location=pavement (or wherever the cabinet is located)
>
> It works both for nodes or areas.
> Additionnal advantage is to get location=* back to give cabinet position
> instead of substation design (there was issues to tag underground kiosks
> for instance)
> There are 7k objects in db:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/location=kiosk
>
> Pages to update are :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%
> 3Dtransformer#Location_values
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:location
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:substation%3Dminor_distribution
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dsubstation#Location
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>
> How do you feel about it ?
>
> There are no need of a time consuming formal proposal to deal with this
> question.
> Without further coments, i will update wiki pages in 15 days.
> No automated edits.
>
> Thanks for your time
>
> François
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> El mié., 25 de abril de 2018 21:32, Michael Reichert <
> osm...@michreichert.de> escribió:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> while adding a substation to OSM yesterday I looked up the possible
>> values of location=* and missed kiosk. A short glance in the history
>> showes that it removed location=kiosk from the page on 2018-01-02. The
>> edit description mentions man_made=street_cabinet+street_cabinet=power
>> as a replacement.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:
>> power%3Dsubstation=1542685
>>
>> location=kiosk was introduced by the approved Substation Refinement
>> Proposal in 2013.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/
>> Substation_refinement#Substation
>>
>> man_made=street_cabinet was introduced by the Street Cabinet Proposal in
>> 2014.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet
>> This proposal does not mention substations or transformers at all.
>>
>> I think that small substations are not street cabinets because they are
>> much larger than street cabinets and are usually not located on the
>> sidewalk but next to it on a separate area.
>>
>> I don't remember a discussion of this change, do you? If no, I propose
>> to revert this change on the wiki.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> --
>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>> ausgenommen)
>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not