Re: [Tagging] psychics

[Jmapb]

On 7/4/2018 7:08 PM, Warin wrote:


Shops sell physical objects e.g. bread, vegetables, paper.

These .. people .. don't sell physical objects .. so they are not a 
shop. There are, at best, an office. 


I think of them as shops in the same sense as shop=hairdresser. office 
seems a bit.. off. I guess I could see amenity=fortune_teller...


A quick trip to overpass shows a few smatterings here and there:

15 * amenity=psychic (mostly in Toronto, also USA)
13 * shop=psychic (all in the USA! about 5 of these are mine)
1 * amenity=fortune_teller (in Cuba)
5 * shop=fortune_teller (USA, Japan, and Spain. My favorite is Professor 
Raul in Barcelona at node 5567074077)


As for the specialties, well, no need for that level of granularity; 
they'll all advise you on anything, of course. (Though one in San Jose 
is actually tagged craft=palmistry, go figure.)


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Re: [Tagging] psychics (was: tagging religion-based access)

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:59 PM, Jmapb  wrote:

>
> This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask the list... I've got
> a lot of psychics in the area. I've been tagging them shop=psychic because
> that's what the signs say, but I don't really feel OSM ought to be
> endorsing unverifiable claims of supernatural power. shop=charlatan seems a
> little judgemental. So I was considering changing them to
> shop=fortune_teller. I think this will cover psychics, palmists,
> tea-leafists, tarot readers, etc. What do people think?
>

In my opinion they're charlatans.  Because if any of them could actually do
what they claim to be able to do, James Randi
would have given them a million dollars.  And that would be just the start
as scientists around the world queued up to
investigate.  Few of them took up Randi's challenge, and all that did so
failed.

In my opinion, the people who go to psychics are fools.

But...

The fools that pay charlatans WANT to pay charlatans and want to be able to
find them.  So we do them both a
dis-service by tagging psychics as anything other than they purport to be.
I don't think we should be in the business
of concealing things for the good of other people.  If a garage does shoddy
repairs, it's still a garage and it's not for
us to say otherwise.

There's also a legal aspect to it.  Much as you (or I) might like to tag a
psychic as shop=charlatan, you'd open yourself up
to a libel suit.

All that said, there's no much point in proliferating values.to cover all
the different types of fortune-telling, because there
are too many of them, such as reading chicken entrails and the like.  So
fortune_telling seems like a reasonable blanket
term that doesn't imply any skepticism.  Of course, we're then going to get
subtags like fortune_teller:type=* (I can see
into the future).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] psychics

[Warin]

On 05/07/18 08:59, Jmapb wrote:

On 7/4/2018 4:29 PM, Paul Allen wrote:
Seems OK to me.  They're selling after-life insurance.  Pay your 
tithe or put money on the collection plate and you
go to heaven.  And there's a money-back guarantee: if you don't go to 
heaven, or there's no afterlife at all, simply
return and make a complaint and they'll give you your money back.  
They've never had to pay up under that
guarantee in the thousands of years they've been operating.  That 
shows how good they are.


So, access=saps?

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask the list... I've 
got a lot of psychics in the area. I've been tagging them shop=psychic 
because that's what the signs say, but I don't really feel OSM ought 
to be endorsing unverifiable claims of supernatural power. 
shop=charlatan seems a little judgemental. So I was considering 
changing them to shop=fortune_teller. I think this will cover 
psychics, palmists, tea-leafists, tarot readers, etc. What do people 
think?


Shops sell physical objects e.g. bread, vegetables, paper.

These .. people .. don't sell physical objects .. so they are not a 
shop. There are, at best, an office.


office=charlatan would cover far too many 'services' e.g. politicians, 
financial advisors, etc...
I think the term 'fortune_teller' would also fail to be specific 
enough.. possibly a sub tag is needed?

fortune_teller=financial/general/love ?
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[Tagging] psychics (was: tagging religion-based access)

[Jmapb]

On 7/4/2018 4:29 PM, Paul Allen wrote:
Seems OK to me.  They're selling after-life insurance. Pay your tithe 
or put money on the collection plate and you
go to heaven.  And there's a money-back guarantee: if you don't go to 
heaven, or there's no afterlife at all, simply
return and make a complaint and they'll give you your money back.  
They've never had to pay up under that
guarantee in the thousands of years they've been operating.  That 
shows how good they are.


So, access=saps?

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask the list... I've 
got a lot of psychics in the area. I've been tagging them shop=psychic 
because that's what the signs say, but I don't really feel OSM ought to 
be endorsing unverifiable claims of supernatural power. shop=charlatan 
seems a little judgemental. So I was considering changing them to 
shop=fortune_teller. I think this will cover psychics, palmists, 
tea-leafists, tarot readers, etc. What do people think?


J
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Warin]

On 05/07/18 08:32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 4. Jul 2018, at 22:50, marc marc  wrote:

but I never see a building having a "public typology or style".


e.g. courthouses, townhalls, office buildings for the public administration, 
etc.


Just as some miss tag an area of trees as landuse=forest so some will miss tag 
a building for its present use rather than its appearance.


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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Jul 2018, at 22:50, marc marc  wrote:
> 
> but I never see a building having a "public typology or style".


e.g. courthouses, townhalls, office buildings for the public administration, 
etc.
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[Tagging] Add transformer=distribution on minor_distribution power substations nodes

[François Lacombe]

Good evening everybody

As power mapping goes on in France, we use to find some power substation in
street cabinets like in many countries.
Those cabinets often host a single transformer to step down voltage for
households (and its a power substation since there are switches with the
transformer in the cabinet).
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_substation_ruralcompact.jpg

Since some figures about the transformer can be got on the cabinet, it may
be useful to add some *optional* tags to minor distribution substations
mapped with a single node: (street cabinets are often described as a single
node because of their small size)
transformer=distribution
voltage:primary=
voltage:secondary=
rating=

Example : https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5716114593

This would mix the place (power substation) with the device inside (the
power transformer) for minor distribution substations on nodes only as we
use to do for transformers on power poles.

It's also possible to describe the cabinet + substation as an area and the
transformer as a node inside, like when the substation is in a building but
this may clutter the map.
The substation : https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/70564498
The transformer inside : https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5631393069

How do you feel about this optional improvement?

If everyone agree with it, or no further comments, examples on
power=substation and power=transformer wiki pages will be updated
accordingly in 15 days.
I think there is no need of formal vote for this one.

Feel free to comment and ask
All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[marc marc]

Le 04. 07. 18 à 20:04, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> You can interpret building=public as a building erected for the public 
> administration

why a building was erected is not describing what it look like.

some "public" building look like as a building=residential or house,
or building=appartements or building=industrial or building=castel
but I never see a building having a "public typology or style".
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Re: [Tagging] tagging religion-based access

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:16 PM, Jmapb  wrote:

> I'd suggest something like access=customers, but that comes off as cheeky
> when you're talking about religion.
>

Seems OK to me.  They're selling after-life insurance.  Pay your tithe or
put money on the collection plate and you
go to heaven.  And there's a money-back guarantee: if you don't go to
heaven, or there's no afterlife at all, simply
return and make a complaint and they'll give you your money back.  They've
never had to pay up under that
guarantee in the thousands of years they've been operating.  That shows how
good they are.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging religion-based access

[Jmapb]

I'd suggest something like access=customers, but that comes off as 
cheeky when you're talking about religion. So maybe access=adherents?


J

On 6/29/2018 3:55 PM, Erkin Alp Güney wrote:

islam=only.


29-06-2018 21:35 tarihinde Mateusz Konieczny yazdı:

I thought about it but it is not clear that it refers to access. Also,
it would cause problems
for anybody processing popular tags (like access) and not processing
very rare new tags
(muslim).

For example

amenity=place_of_worship
muslim=yes
religion=muslim
access=no

would be quite unclear, with muslim=yes looking like duplicate of
religion=muslim.

29. Jun 2018 20:32 by t...@fitchdesign.com :

 Maybe something like

 access=no
 muslim=yes

 better fit the existing schemes for tagging access?


 On Jun 29, 2018, at 11:27 AM, Mateusz Konieczny
 mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> wrote:

 I thought about muslim_only=yes tag.


 27. Jun 2018 12:50 by matkoni...@tutanota.com
 :

 Is there some established way to tag religion-based access
 restrictions?

 For example in Morocco only Muslims may enter a typical
 mosque.




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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Jul 2018, at 17:32, Jmapb  wrote:
> 
> But it's definitely an outlier.


it is not necessarily an outlier. You can interpret building=public as a 
building erected for the public administration, regardless of current use. 


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Jmapb]

On 7/4/2018 10:47 AM, César Martínez Izquierdo wrote:




The exception that I've seen is building=public -- this seems most often
to indicate the current use rather than the style.

it's why it's depreciated a long time ago.


Is it? It's never been removed from the wiki. But it's definitely an 
outlier. J


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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[marc marc]

Le 04. 07. 18 à 15:51, Jmapb a écrit :
> On 7/4/2018 7:23 AM, marc marc wrote:
> 
>> Le 04. 07. 18 à 12:34, César Martínez Izquierdo a écrit :
>>> I think that the best way is to tag their current use (e.g.
>>> building=hotel

>> the building tag is what the building look like
>> so building=castel for exemple
>>
>> the current use of a bulding is building:use
>> so for exemple building:use=residential
>> ___
>>
> This is my understanding as well -- populate the building tag with 
> architectural style or original use. (So in this case, maybe 
> building=manor and building:use=hotel, though I suppose tourism=hotel 
> indicates the building's use pretty well.)

yes tourism=hotel is more common than building:use=hotel
So building=manor/castel + tourism=hotel is the more common (good) tag
to describe a hotel in a building that look like a manor/castel

> The exception that I've seen is building=public -- this seems most often 
> to indicate the current use rather than the style.

it's why it's depreciated a long time ago.
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Jmapb]

On 7/4/2018 7:23 AM, marc marc wrote:


Le 04. 07. 18 à 12:34, César Martínez Izquierdo a écrit :

I think that the best way is to tag their current use (e.g.
building=hotel

the building tag is what the building look like
so building=castel for exemple

the current use of a bulding is building:use
so for exemple building:use=residential
___

This is my understanding as well -- populate the building tag with 
architectural style or original use. (So in this case, maybe 
building=manor and building:use=hotel, though I suppose tourism=hotel 
indicates the building's use pretty well.)


The exception that I've seen is building=public -- this seems most often 
to indicate the current use rather than the style.


j

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Re: [Tagging] fuel:cng tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

you should discuss this on talk-it as well.
You can find more information here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import

Cheers,
Martin 

sent from a phone

> On 4. Jul 2018, at 14:09, Carmine Massarelli 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear,
> I would like to contribute to Osm updating all the opening time of 
> fuel:cng=yes of Italy.
> Is it possible to do it without tagging every single point station via 
> openstreetmap editor?
> CaMa
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 04 July 2018, César Martínez Izquierdo wrote:
>
> I wonder if option 1 (manor) is too specific to UK or it can be
> applied also to these kind of building.
>
> OSM wiki states: "The manor tag is intended only for representative
> buildings that are in the same time the administrative center of a
> large agricultural estate. Buildings lacking this economic feature
> should not be tagged.".

historic=manor is not UK specific, it is used elsewhere too:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=manor#map

However you need to keep in mind that there is also historic=castle + 
castle_type=manor.  Both these have been added to rendering in 
OSM-Carto recently:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3099

which will likely perpetuate the tagging fragmentation.

If historic=manor fits for your cases i would only invent a new tag if 
there is a clear distinction between the two that is practically 
verifiable by a mapper without specialized architectural or historic 
knowledge.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:34 AM, César Martínez Izquierdo <
cesar@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I wonder the best way to tag Spanish historic farmhouses ("masías"
> [1], "caseríos" [2] "cortijos", "pazos", etc), since I find no proper
> value of "historic" for them.
>

I suggest you contact the creator of http://gk.historic.place/ for this is
where most historic
and heritage tags are rendered and decisions about those tags are made.
But here are
my thoughts on it.


> I think that the best way is to tag their current use (e.g.
> building=hotel, or building=civic+tourism=museum, etc) and then use
> the "historic" tag to note they are a historic farmhouse.
>

This is the wrong way to go.  See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building - the very first
paragraph explains that building=* describes the building's form, not its
purpose.  A deconsecrated
church may have been converted into a hotel, which means it is
building=church +
building:use=hotel + tourism=hotel.  Barns are often converted to
accomodation, they are still
building=barn.  Use building=* to describe what it looks like, not what it
is used for.

Also, historic=* is not about what it was last used for, but that it is of
historic interest.  So a building may
have been constructed as a church (and most people looking at it would
think it was a church), it may
have later been converted to a hotel and is now a shopping centre.  The
historical interest is that it was
a church, so historic=church not historic=hotel.  Again, the historic tag
is mainly of use on
http://gk.historic.place/ where it causes special rendering to occur in a
clickable overlay.

I see different options for the proper historic value.
>
> 1- historic=manor
> 2- historic=farmhouse
> 3- historic=masia, historic=cortijo, etc
>
> I wonder if option 1 (manor) is too specific to UK or it can be
> applied also to these kind of building.
>

 If it meets the requirements of historic=manor then use historic=manor.
OSM
uses British English names for tags and values (except where those values
are names
of things or other types of literal text).

OSM wiki states: "The manor tag is intended only for representative
> buildings that are in the same time the administrative center of a
> large agricultural estate. Buildings lacking this economic feature
> should not be tagged.".
>

OSM wiki needs to be fixed.  It is clear, from context, that it should say
"buildings
that WERE" not "buildings that are."  I'd fix it myself, but I'm not sure
what was
intended by the qualifying "in the same time."

Regarding option 2, this would be a new value for historic, and I am
> not sure it will really catch the historic relevance of the building.
> We don't tag it as historic because it was a farmhouse, but because of
> its architecture and historic relevance in administering the lands
> surrounding it.
>

You tag it as historic because it causes special rendering on
gk.historic.place.  Invent a
new value for historic=* without first discussing it with the maintainer of
that site and you
may not get any special rendering.

The 3rd option (using different values for each kind building) looks a
> bit overkilling, since there are many different names (masía,
> alquería, cortijo, caserío, pazo, cigarral, quinta, carmen, etc, etc)
> and this would create too much tag fragmentation.
>

Indeed.  That's why we use British English in tag names.  Otherwise each
tag name and
value would have as many variants as there are languages.

As well as historic=* you may find heritage=* is applicable if the building
is officially listed as
Bien de Interés Cultural
 by the
Ministry of Education, Culture and Sport.  See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:heritage#Spain for details of how
to map.

For example, here is the result of going to gk.historic.place, zooming in
to Cardigan, setting the "show more
objects" control to 3, and clicking on the icon for Cardigan Castle.
http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/translate/en/index-en.html?zoom=18=52.082=-4.66081=HaHbHcSaHe=3=w568794249

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[Volker Schmidt]

In the Veneto region of Italy there are about 300 Venetian Villas tagged as
"historic=manor" plus "manor:type=venetian_villa" [1]
This could be a model, as the historic function of those villas was most
likely very similar to the ones listed in your post. [2]

[1] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/A3H
[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riviera_del_Brenta#History_of_the_Venetian_villas
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Re: [Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[José G Moya Y .]

Search in this list for "[Tagging] Manor tagging" around march 14th.
The manor is the area around the house (la finca)
The manor house it the house itself.
Yours,
José Moya

El 4/7/2018 12:36 PM, "César Martínez Izquierdo" 
escribió:

> Hi,
>
> I wonder the best way to tag Spanish historic farmhouses ("masías"
> [1], "caseríos" [2] "cortijos", "pazos", etc), since I find no proper
> value of "historic" for them.
>
> They are prominent buildings that are spread all over the country,
> dating from at least the XVII century and in some cases having Roman
> origins. Some of them are still used as farmhouses, but most of them
> are abandoned or have a different use nowadays: museums, hotels,
> private houses, etc. They had great importance in the past since they
> were used to administer the fields surrounding them. Nowadays the are
> relevant from the point of view of architecture and they are also
> important landmarks in the rural areas. They are named (e.g. "Masía
> Tristán") and its name has been extended to identify the area
> surrounding them.
>
> I think that the best way is to tag their current use (e.g.
> building=hotel, or building=civic+tourism=museum, etc) and then use
> the "historic" tag to note they are a historic farmhouse.
>
> I see different options for the proper historic value.
>
> 1- historic=manor
> 2- historic=farmhouse
> 3- historic=masia, historic=cortijo, etc
>
> I wonder if option 1 (manor) is too specific to UK or it can be
> applied also to these kind of building.
>
> OSM wiki states: "The manor tag is intended only for representative
> buildings that are in the same time the administrative center of a
> large agricultural estate. Buildings lacking this economic feature
> should not be tagged.".
>
> Regarding option 2, this would be a new value for historic, and I am
> not sure it will really catch the historic relevance of the building.
> We don't tag it as historic because it was a farmhouse, but because of
> its architecture and historic relevance in administering the lands
> surrounding it.
>
> The 3rd option (using different values for each kind building) looks a
> bit overkilling, since there are many different names (masía,
> alquería, cortijo, caserío, pazo, cigarral, quinta, carmen, etc, etc)
> and this would create too much tag fragmentation.
>
> Finally, there is also historic=farm, but it does not fit in this case
> according its definition.
>
> Opinions?
>
> César Martínez
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masia
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baserri
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortijo
> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazo
>
>
>
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>César Martínez Izquierdo
>GIS developer
>-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
>SCOLAB: http://www.scolab.es
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
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[Tagging] Spanish "manors"

[César Martínez Izquierdo]

Hi,

I wonder the best way to tag Spanish historic farmhouses ("masías"
[1], "caseríos" [2] "cortijos", "pazos", etc), since I find no proper
value of "historic" for them.

They are prominent buildings that are spread all over the country,
dating from at least the XVII century and in some cases having Roman
origins. Some of them are still used as farmhouses, but most of them
are abandoned or have a different use nowadays: museums, hotels,
private houses, etc. They had great importance in the past since they
were used to administer the fields surrounding them. Nowadays the are
relevant from the point of view of architecture and they are also
important landmarks in the rural areas. They are named (e.g. "Masía
Tristán") and its name has been extended to identify the area
surrounding them.

I think that the best way is to tag their current use (e.g.
building=hotel, or building=civic+tourism=museum, etc) and then use
the "historic" tag to note they are a historic farmhouse.

I see different options for the proper historic value.

1- historic=manor
2- historic=farmhouse
3- historic=masia, historic=cortijo, etc

I wonder if option 1 (manor) is too specific to UK or it can be
applied also to these kind of building.

OSM wiki states: "The manor tag is intended only for representative
buildings that are in the same time the administrative center of a
large agricultural estate. Buildings lacking this economic feature
should not be tagged.".

Regarding option 2, this would be a new value for historic, and I am
not sure it will really catch the historic relevance of the building.
We don't tag it as historic because it was a farmhouse, but because of
its architecture and historic relevance in administering the lands
surrounding it.

The 3rd option (using different values for each kind building) looks a
bit overkilling, since there are many different names (masía,
alquería, cortijo, caserío, pazo, cigarral, quinta, carmen, etc, etc)
and this would create too much tag fragmentation.

Finally, there is also historic=farm, but it does not fit in this case
according its definition.

Opinions?

César Martínez

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masia
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baserri
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortijo
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazo



-- 
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   César Martínez Izquierdo
   GIS developer
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   SCOLAB: http://www.scolab.es
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