Re: [Tagging] horse rental

2018-09-01 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 at 00:26, Hufkratzer  wrote:

> One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for riding
> inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can do this for
> just an hour or for several days and also with  horse.drawn caravans, see
> these example webpages:
> -  http://www.sombrerohorses.com 
>  - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm
> 
>
> What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
>

Beautiful!

Thanks for that - hadn't heard of those concepts before :-)

Yes, by those examples horse=rental would probably be the best option.

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Cashless/Electronic tolling — toll by plate and non-plaza toll points

2018-09-01 Thread Albert Pundt
There seems to be a bit of a hole in toll road tagging. It seems the
convention for electronic toll gantries such as this
 is to either tag them with
barrier=toll_booth and payment:cash=no along with payment:=yes, or to having nothing at all and simply tagging the road with
toll=yes as normal, leaving out any information about payment types.

Perhaps there should be a new tag for these situations, such as
highway=toll_point, along with payment:toll_by_plate=yes,
payment:license_plate=yes, or anything else that gets the point across
while fitting in with existing OSM tagging conventions.

—Albert Pundt
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC canal=qanat

2018-09-01 Thread Paul Allen
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Joseph Guillaume 
wrote:

>
> I've now added mention that qanats can be tagged in parallel in terms of
> their historic value.
> New text: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?
> title=Proposed_features/Qanat=1644721=1644670
>

That's good.  Ummm, I forgot to mention it last time but from things that
have come up on here before I'd mention
that "historic," in OSM terms, doesn't mean "old" or "abandoned" or
"disused" but that it is of historic importance.
[Not for the wiki:the difference between "history" and "pre-history" are
whether or not there are recorded details (history
started with the invention of writing.)]


> I've also made a first attempt at defining qanats in general terms, and
> explicitly listing names of similar features in other regions (based on the
> Wikipedia article).
>

s/shifts/shafts :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC canal=qanat

2018-09-01 Thread Joseph Guillaume
Thanks Paul and Christoph, both for your feedback and encouragement!

I've now added mention that qanats can be tagged in parallel in terms of
their historic value.
New text:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Qanat=1644721=1644670

I've also made a first attempt at defining qanats in general terms, and
explicitly listing names of similar features in other regions (based on the
Wikipedia article). The term "qanat" is therefore used because it is the
most commonly recognised in English.
As part of the definition of qanats, I've stated that they are always
free-flowing, not pressurized/pipe flow. I understand this is generally
true, and if there are exceptions, then a different waterway subtag might
be needed in future.
New text:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Qanat=1644818=1644721

Best Regards,

Joseph


On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 5:09 PM Joseph Guillaume 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm planning to map some qanats, underground channels for conveying
> groundwater that have vertical excavation shafts visible from the
> surface/aerial imagery (see proposal for example).
>
> This was previously discussed in 2013.
> Since then, the role of different waterway tags has been clarified, which
> indicates that waterway=canal is appropriate, combined with subtag
> canal=qanat and tunnel=flooded.
>
> Qanat shafts are still a little tricky as there are specific tags for
> mineshaft and water_well, but neither of these are really appropriate, and
> don't have a generic version.
> I'm proposing to use a generic man_made=excavation with subtag
> excavation=qanat_shaft.
>
> Here's the full proposal. Thanks to user emes, who drafted the original
> version in 2013.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Qanat
>
> This email has two purposes: it would be great to have the formal proposal
> discussed and approved.
> But if consensus is impossible, I'll be mapping anyway, so I'm hoping for
> some feedback/alternative names before I go ahead and map 100s of them.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

2018-09-01 Thread Hufkratzer

As far as horses are concerned, in
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/038781.html
I wrote: "If the horse rental is only a secondary activity it may be 
tagged horse_rental=yes (with underline, currently used once) instead of 
horse:rental=yes (with colon), analogously to what is written on the 
wiki pages for amenity=animal_boarding and amenity=animal_breeding, for 
example."


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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

2018-09-01 Thread Thilo Haug OSM
And what if a touristic item (farm, hotel, shop...)
offers several things to rent ?
Let's say horses, bicycles, jetski ?

Am 01.09.2018 um 16:25 schrieb Hufkratzer:
> On 1.9.2018 02:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 09:03, Hufkratzer > > wrote:
>>
>> I think a better alternative would be to use
>> amenity=horse_rental, this
>> is currently used 5 times, this would be analogous to
>> amenity=car_rental, amenity=bicycle_rental and amenity=boat_rental. 
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if horse rental would really be an appropriate term?
>>
>> If you rent a car, bike or boat, then you decide where to go, but if
>> you're "renting" a horse, you're paying to join an organised trail
>> ride of some form, you're not renting a horse to ride off into the
>> sunset & return it tomorrow!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>  
> One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for
> riding inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can
> do this for just an hour or for several days and also with 
> horse.drawn caravans, see these example webpages:
> -  http://www.sombrerohorses.com
>  - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm
>
> What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging suggestions for electricity

2018-09-01 Thread André Pirard

On 2018-08-31 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Going back to the original suggestion, wouldn't it be much simpler 
just to say this house / building has power connected / available: 
electricity = yes / no? :-)


Could this actually be set up as a country default?


Alas, OpenStreetMap is a database that speaks of defaults all the time 
but that refuses to encode them 
.

OSM's defaults must be encoded in other databases.
Best known are the default speed limits that belong to every other GPS 
programs.
Instead of just reloading OSM data, users must upgrade those application 
when they change.

So, this discussion belongs in those other databases.

All the best,

André.




eg in Australia, UK, Western Europe, US "most" buildings will have 
mains power of one type or another connected, while in less developed 
countries eg a lot of Africa, "most" buildings wouldn't?


Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC canal=qanat

2018-09-01 Thread Christoph Hormann
On Saturday 01 September 2018, Joseph Guillaume wrote:
>
> I'm planning to map some qanats, underground channels for conveying
> groundwater that have vertical excavation shafts visible from the
> surface/aerial imagery (see proposal for example).
>
> [...]

What you need to consider here is if you want to make this tagging 
fairly specific to what is locally called "qanat" or if you want it to 
be used for a broad range of objects also in other parts of the world.  
In the latter case having a clear abstract definition what the tag is 
meant to describe physically that is not just a description of what a 
qanat is would be essential.  Both variants have their advantages and 
disadvantages.

Apart from that it is important to remember that waterway=canal is only 
for free surface flow - for pressurized tunneled waterflow 
waterway=canal is not suited.  If you want to use the same tagging for 
both you should choose a different primary tag.  Qanats built in loose 
ground are exclusively free surface flow but there might be mixed 
constructions in some cases.

In any case it is very good to see distinct tagging being developed for 
this kind of feature and not just generic underground waterway tagging 
being used.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC canal=qanat

2018-09-01 Thread Paul Allen
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 3:09 PM, Joseph Guillaume 
wrote:

Here's the full proposal. Thanks to user emes, who drafted the original
> version in 2013.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Qanat
>

Looks reasonable to me, at first inspection (it's likely other people will
have some quibble).  However...

In the proposal you link to two previous discussions.  In the forum
discussion, post number 6 from lutz mentions
something you didn't cover: for old qanats add historic=aqueduct +
aqueduct=qanat.  The will cause the historic
qanats to be rendered on the Historic Places map (follow the link lutz gave
for an example).  Well worth documenting even
if you, yourself, don't map any qanats that qualify for its use.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] horse rental

2018-09-01 Thread Hufkratzer

On 1.9.2018 02:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 09:03, Hufkratzer > wrote:


I think a better alternative would be to use amenity=horse_rental,
this
is currently used 5 times, this would be analogous to
amenity=car_rental, amenity=bicycle_rental and amenity=boat_rental.


I'm not sure if horse rental would really be an appropriate term?

If you rent a car, bike or boat, then you decide where to go, but if 
you're "renting" a horse, you're paying to join an organised trail 
ride of some form, you're not renting a horse to ride off into the 
sunset & return it tomorrow!


Thanks

Graeme
One can rent a horse for trail riding, guided or unguided, or for riding 
inside of an enclosed area, with or without a teacher. One can do this 
for just an hour or for several days and also with horse.drawn caravans, 
see these example webpages:

-  http://www.sombrerohorses.com
 - http://www.irishhorsedrawncaravans.com/Horses.htm

What else than "horse rental" is there to call it?
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC canal=qanat

2018-09-01 Thread Joseph Guillaume
Hi,

I'm planning to map some qanats, underground channels for conveying
groundwater that have vertical excavation shafts visible from the
surface/aerial imagery (see proposal for example).

This was previously discussed in 2013.
Since then, the role of different waterway tags has been clarified, which
indicates that waterway=canal is appropriate, combined with subtag
canal=qanat and tunnel=flooded.

Qanat shafts are still a little tricky as there are specific tags for
mineshaft and water_well, but neither of these are really appropriate, and
don't have a generic version.
I'm proposing to use a generic man_made=excavation with subtag
excavation=qanat_shaft.

Here's the full proposal. Thanks to user emes, who drafted the original
version in 2013.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Qanat

This email has two purposes: it would be great to have the formal proposal
discussed and approved.
But if consensus is impossible, I'll be mapping anyway, so I'm hoping for
some feedback/alternative names before I go ahead and map 100s of them.

Thanks in advance,


Joseph
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Re: [Tagging] Questions about subway tags

2018-09-01 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 1. Sep 2018, at 15:20, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately the subway key is undocumented on the wiki, could someone 
> please help explain what the subway key is meant to mean? How is it different 
> to station=subway?



although I’m not completely sure, it seems redundant, station=subway is the 
“legacy” tag (undocumented for a long time), subway=yes is ptv2

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Questions about subway tags

2018-09-01 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 1. Sep 2018, at 15:20, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> Should we be using that tag to tag entrances to heavy rail underground 
> stations, even though they aren't metros?


I would not do it. It is explicitly for subways.


> I'm assuming the term subway here means a metro system, i.e. "A metro system 
> is a rapid transit train system. In some cases, metro systems are referred to 
> as subways or undergrounds." (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Metros)


+1


> 
> Is there a tag for heavy rail above ground station entrances? These usually 
> have branded signage visible on the streets of where to enter the train 
> station.


entrance=*


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[Tagging] Questions about subway tags

2018-09-01 Thread Andrew Harvey
According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport#Railways
"*railway
=subway_entrance
 can be
used to define entrances to metro stations."*

Should we be using that tag to tag entrances to heavy rail underground
stations, even though they aren't metros? I'm assuming the term subway here
means a metro system, i.e. "A metro system is a rapid transit train system.
In some cases, metro systems are referred to as subways or undergrounds." (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Metros)

Is there a tag for heavy rail above ground station entrances? These usually
have branded signage visible on the streets of where to enter the train
station.

Again on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport#Railways"*
Stations
of subways are tagged with railway
=station
, subway
=yes

and station
=subway
. The two latter
tags are used to indicate that a station is a subway station."*

Unfortunately the subway key is undocumented on the wiki, could someone
please help explain what the subway key is meant to mean? How is it
different to station=subway? How is it used by data consumers? Should it
only be used on rapid transit train systems (metros), and not to be used on
underground heavy rail stations?

Many thanks!
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging suggestions for electricity

2018-09-01 Thread gppes_osm
> Gesendet: Samstag, 01. September 2018 um 00:52 Uhr
> Von: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Tagging suggestions for electricity

> If the requirement is for an indication that electricity is connected .. 
> then that should be easy to verify and map.

Thinking of adjoining buildings (garages, huts, ...): To my opinion, you cant 
verify that without entering/asking.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging suggestions for electricity

2018-09-01 Thread Warin

On 01/09/18 14:52, Dolly Andriatsiferana wrote:
Also in developing countries in Africa some houses would be 
"connected" to an electricity distribution network (thus having an 
electric wire from the exterior entering the house), and some would 
have their individual (per building) source such as a small generator 
somewhere in the building itself or solar panels on the roof.


And we would like to have a way to distinguish:
- those who are connected to a distribution network of electricity

electricity:connected=yes/no
- those who use individual power source for the building 
(generator/windmill/solar panel...)
There are a few methods in the data base. I looked in taginfo for the 
value solar;

the dominate one with over 160,000 uses is generator:source=solar
Of course this would need to be combined wit the tag power=generator.
This is an existing tag .. I see no limit on the size of the power 
generation so small should be fine.



- those who have no electricity at all
If it has none of the above tags ... then it may have no electricity. 
Could be the default state for rural Africa.

Adding the tag power=no maybe an idea?
There is a little use of things like power_source=no, power_supply=no.


The original ideau was just that simple. And it's all verifiable on 
the ground with a simple survey (and we will do it). But it's worth 
debating about other possible details related while we're at it, 
omitting what's becoming complicated due to varying conditions across 
the countries.



Le sam. 1 sept. 2018 1:53 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> a écrit :


On 01/09/18 07:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Going back to the original suggestion, wouldn't it be much
simpler just to say this house / building has power connected /
available: electricity = yes / no? :-)

Could this actually be set up as a country default?

eg in Australia, UK, Western Europe, US "most" buildings will
have mains power of one type or another connected, while in less
developed countries eg a lot of Africa, "most" buildings wouldn't?



If the requirement is for an indication that electricity is
connected .. then that should be easy to verify and map.

electricity:connected=yes/no  would be a good tag. It does not
lend itself to tagging other things, and is clear in meaning. I
supose some will tag
electricity:connected=yes/no/single_phase/three_phase and possibly
other things .. I would discourage that.


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