Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

No : bus relations are broken because of the way part, not because of the
node part. And detailed timetables will be associated with the nodes.

Breaking a bus relation by cutting a street way in half does not implies
that the osm timetable breaks too.

I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do not
change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for example).
Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire new drivers.

Julien « djakk »


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 04:48, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> It sounds like we agree: detailed timetables for every bus stop are too
> much to maintain, but simple service hours and intervals assigned to a
> route are reasonable.
>
> This would be very useful for map rendering, because an intercity bus that
> runs every 10 minutes is quite different than one that run once a day!
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 8:57 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm siding with the idea of linking to an external data-base, as
>> maintaining this in OSM is going to be a nightmare :-(
>>
>> On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 08:45, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared to
>>> the number of towns with public transit?
>>>
>>> I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
>>> publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
>>> Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
>>> available in OSM
>>>
>>
>> Somebody did mention Moovit earlier: https://moovit.com/
>>
>> & here is Moovit Indonesia, which may make sense to you but means
>> absolutely nothing to me! :-)
>>
>> https://moovitapp.com/index/in/Tranportasi_Umum-Indonesia
>>
>>
>>> These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie headway)
>>> between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very useful
>>> and verifiable info.
>>>
>>
>> In cases like this, when you need to know that the bus to the big city
>> should leave on Monday & Thursday mornings, is a bit of a different
>> situation to 100s of routes with multiple journeys, & they would be doable.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Allan Mustard]

Hmmm.  Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political science,
Parliament is also a government body, the legislative branch of the
government, so even a member of the opposition is part of "government"
in its broadest sense.  I would tag it office=government,
government=parliamentarian or something similar.  Executive,
legislative, judicial are all "government".

On 11/3/2018 5:46 AM, Warin wrote:
> On 03/11/18 11:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> I've done office=government with name=Michael Hart MP, Member for
>> Burleigh, which seems to work, but office=politician would also seem OK.
>
> Not all of the elected are 'government' .. a few are 'opposition' :)
>
> Hence my reluctance to use that value.
>
> Oh and there are the occasional ones that desert, not usually ones
> elected to the government though.
>
>>
>> Definitely not an embassy though!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 09:53, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any
>> other
>> form of government)?
>>
>>
>> I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not
>> right.
>>
>> But what to use?
>>
>> I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there
>> something better?
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[Allan Mustard]

Definitely not an embassy, and not a consulate, either!  More like a
specialized travel agency that focuses only on visa applications.


On 11/3/2018 6:22 AM, Warin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Node: Visalink Germany (4362535595) is tagged as an embassy.
>
> It is a commercial firm that arranges applications to the German
> Embassy/Consulate for a visa, see
>
> https://www.visa-germany.co.za/
>
> I think tags could be office=visa, country=DE,
> website=https://www.visa-germany.co.za/
>
> but not amenity=embassy, diplomatic=visa ...
>
> There are some 13 with the tag diplomatic=visa that may fall under
> this same cloud.
>
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[Tagging] visa offices tags

[Warin]

Hi,

Node: Visalink Germany (4362535595) is tagged as an embassy.

It is a commercial firm that arranges applications to the German 
Embassy/Consulate for a visa, see


https://www.visa-germany.co.za/

I think tags could be office=visa, country=DE, 
website=https://www.visa-germany.co.za/

but not amenity=embassy, diplomatic=visa ...

There are some 13 with the tag diplomatic=visa that may fall under this same 
cloud.


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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Warin]

On 03/11/18 11:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
I've done office=government with name=Michael Hart MP, Member for 
Burleigh, which seems to work, but office=politician would also seem OK.


Not all of the elected are 'government' .. a few are 'opposition' :)

Hence my reluctance to use that value.

Oh and there are the occasional ones that desert, not usually ones 
elected to the government though.




Definitely not an embassy though!

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 09:53, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Hi,


What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any
other
form of government)?


I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not
right.

But what to use?

I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there
something better?


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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I've done office=government with name=Michael Hart MP, Member for Burleigh,
which seems to work, but office=politician would also seem OK.

Definitely not an embassy though!

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 09:53, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any other
> form of government)?
>
>
> I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not right.
>
> But what to use?
>
> I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there
> something better?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I'm siding with the idea of linking to an external data-base, as
maintaining this in OSM is going to be a nightmare :-(

On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 08:45, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared to
> the number of towns with public transit?
>
> I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
> publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
> Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
> available in OSM
>

Somebody did mention Moovit earlier: https://moovit.com/

& here is Moovit Indonesia, which may make sense to you but means
absolutely nothing to me! :-)

https://moovitapp.com/index/in/Tranportasi_Umum-Indonesia


> These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie headway)
> between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very useful
> and verifiable info.
>

In cases like this, when you need to know that the bus to the big city
should leave on Monday & Thursday mornings, is a bit of a different
situation to 100s of routes with multiple journeys, & they would be doable.

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Warin]

Hi,


What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any other 
form of government)?



I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not right.

But what to use?

I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there 
something better?



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Tod Fitch]

I prefer to have common tags on the relation. That said, in JOSM you can select 
the relation members and then easily add, update or delete a tag from all 
members of the relation.

Cheers!

> On Nov 2, 2018, at 4:00 PM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> Of course. The Trans Alaska Pipeline is as good an example as any. It is a 
> man_made oil pipeline that stretches 1300 km across the entire state of 
> Alaska. The relation contains 280 members. The reason there are so many 
> members is because the pipeline way has been split into many individual 
> pieces, separate ways, that have certain differing characteristics, e.g. 
> where it runs underground or crosses a river on a bridge. The tagging for any 
> specific way deals with those differing characteristics. A section might run 
> for several miles underground and then emerge. At that point the pipeline way 
> must be split into a section with location=underground and the emergent 
> section with location=overground. Now it comes to a river that it crosses on 
> a bridge. The pipeline way is split again into a section that has the tags 
> bridge=yes and layer=1. You do the same thing to a highway where the number 
> of lanes changes, or maxspeed. Each change requires you to split the way.
> 
> Now say you've been tagging each piece with all the tags required rather than 
> the relation. You decide to add a Wikipedia tag to the pipeline. Using your 
> method, you must edit every piece of the pipeline, all 280 sections of it, 
> and add the Wikipedia tag. Tagging the relation with the Wikipedia entry, 
> however, requires only one edit. To make matters worse, let's just say you 
> misspelled the Wikipedia tag value. You meant to write 
> "wikipedia=en:Trans-Alaska Pipeline System" but forgot to include the "en:" 
> prefix. Back you go to your editor, editing all 280 pieces again. That's why 
> I say tagging it this way is a maintenance nightmare.
> 
> I would only use tags on a particular way when its characteristics demand it. 
> Tags that apply to the entire pipeline belong in the relation. Tags like the 
> Wikipedia tag, substance=oil, man_made=pipeline, operator, alt_name, etc., 
> belong on the relation. However, tags like bridge and location, tags that 
> apply to individual sections or ways, get applied to the ways and not the 
> relation because they don't apply to the entire pipeline.
> 
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 4:25 AM Mateusz Konieczny  > wrote:
> 2. Nov 2018 01:04 by daveswarth...@gmail.com :
> 
>  The only tags that should appear on the ways themselves are attributes of 
> those ways, for example, location=overground or location=underground, and 
> tags for bridge and layer. Everything else, Wikidata, substance=oil, 
> man_made=pipeline, etc, should appear only on the relation.
> 
> 
> I am not convinced that it is a good idea.
> 
> 
> If those tags appear on each way in addition to the relation, maintaining any 
> consistency in the tagging on this beast would be almost impossible.
> 
> 
> Can you give examples of task that you claim to be almost impossible?
> 
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> 
> --
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> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

Of course. The Trans Alaska Pipeline is as good an example as any. It is a
man_made oil pipeline that stretches 1300 km across the entire state of
Alaska. The relation contains 280 members. The reason there are so many
members is because the pipeline way has been split into many individual
pieces, separate ways, that have certain differing characteristics, e.g.
where it runs underground or crosses a river on a bridge. The tagging for
any specific way deals with those differing characteristics. A section
might run for several miles underground and then emerge. At that point the
pipeline way must be split into a section with location=underground and the
emergent section with location=overground. Now it comes to a river that it
crosses on a bridge. The pipeline way is split again into a section that
has the tags bridge=yes and layer=1. You do the same thing to a highway
where the number of lanes changes, or maxspeed. Each change requires you to
split the way.

Now say you've been tagging each piece with all the tags required rather
than the relation. You decide to add a Wikipedia tag to the pipeline. Using
your method, you must edit every piece of the pipeline, all 280 sections of
it, and add the Wikipedia tag. Tagging the relation with the Wikipedia
entry, however, requires only one edit. To make matters worse, let's just
say you misspelled the Wikipedia tag value. You meant to write
"wikipedia=en:Trans-Alaska Pipeline System" but forgot to include the "en:"
prefix. Back you go to your editor, editing all 280 pieces again. That's
why I say tagging it this way is a maintenance nightmare.

I would only use tags on a particular way when its characteristics demand
it. Tags that apply to the entire pipeline belong in the relation. Tags
like the Wikipedia tag, substance=oil, man_made=pipeline, operator,
alt_name, etc., belong on the relation. However, tags like bridge and
location, tags that apply to individual sections or ways, get applied to
the ways and not the relation because they don't apply to the entire
pipeline.

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 4:25 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 2. Nov 2018 01:04 by daveswarth...@gmail.com:
>
>  The only tags that should appear on the ways themselves are attributes of
> those ways, for example, location=overground or location=underground, and
> tags for bridge and layer. Everything else, Wikidata, substance=oil,
> man_made=pipeline, etc, should appear only on the relation.
>
>
> I am not convinced that it is a good idea.
>
>
>
> If those tags appear on each way in addition to the relation, maintaining
> any consistency in the tagging on this beast would be almost impossible.
>
>
> Can you give examples of task that you claim to be almost impossible?
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-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Joseph Eisenberg]

“In cities that publish their GTFS timetables under free licenses which
are kept current I don't see the point in duplicating this into OSM”

Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared to the
number of towns with public transit?

I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
available in OSM

These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie headway)
between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very useful
and verifiable info.

Joseph

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:19 AM Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 19:58, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> > also burdens OSM with dead data that will not be properly maintained.
>
> This is my experience too, I've seen people add bus routes from their
> surveys into OSM but they quickly become out of date and aren't
> maintained.
>
> Some roads can have 100+ bus routes passing through them, and then
> when I need to change the road due to on the ground changes, I
> suddenly get asked by JOSM do I keep this way in the relation or not,
> and honestly I have no idea so the relation get's broken.
>
> In cities that publish their GTFS timetables under free licenses which
> are kept current I don't see the point in duplicating this into OSM at
> huge effort when I can't see any benefit.
>
> I do agree though there are cases like a small ferry route which
> doesn't publish a GTFS but does have a strict schedule, which is much
> simpler and could be added to OSM.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Andrew Harvey]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 19:58, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> also burdens OSM with dead data that will not be properly maintained.

This is my experience too, I've seen people add bus routes from their
surveys into OSM but they quickly become out of date and aren't
maintained.

Some roads can have 100+ bus routes passing through them, and then
when I need to change the road due to on the ground changes, I
suddenly get asked by JOSM do I keep this way in the relation or not,
and honestly I have no idea so the relation get's broken.

In cities that publish their GTFS timetables under free licenses which
are kept current I don't see the point in duplicating this into OSM at
huge effort when I can't see any benefit.

I do agree though there are cases like a small ferry route which
doesn't publish a GTFS but does have a strict schedule, which is much
simpler and could be added to OSM.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

2. Nov 2018 01:04 by daveswarth...@gmail.com :


>  The only tags that should appear on the ways themselves are attributes of 
> those ways, for example, location=overground or location=underground, and 
> tags for bridge and layer. Everything else, Wikidata, substance=oil, 
> man_made=pipeline, etc, should appear only on the relation.




I am not convinced that it is a good idea.


 

> If those tags appear on each way in addition to the relation, maintaining any 
> consistency in the tagging on this beast would be almost impossible.




Can you give examples of task that you claim to be almost impossible?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 2. Nov. 2018 um 18:21 Uhr schrieb SelfishSeahorse <
selfishseaho...@gmail.com>:

> On Friday, November 2, 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> Although less precise, i would have only drawn one and tagged it tracks=2
> in order to not break topology. I don't understand why traffic lanes
> (tagged on street way) and tram tracks (mapped with separate ways) are
> treated differently, although both are part of the same street.
>


because people are interested in the exact position and curves of tram
ways. Basically, the tram ways are "physically separated" while the roads
where they run on are often not. It is a problem of the model.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Friday, November 2, 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> Frequently you can't get this right. You will often have just one
> carriageway (i.e. one highway way) and you will usually have 2 ways for the
> tram tracks (if you draw each of them).
>

Although less precise, i would have only drawn one and tagged it tracks=2
in order to not break topology. I don't understand why traffic lanes
(tagged on street way) and tram tracks (mapped with separate ways) are
treated differently, although both are part of the same street.

Regards
Markus
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 2. Nov. 2018 um 16:58 Uhr schrieb SelfishSeahorse <
selfishseaho...@gmail.com>:

> Anyway, i'm wondering why tram tracks that are embedded in a street are
> mapped with separate ways instead of reusing the street way? Separating
> them seems topologically wrong.




Frequently you can't get this right. You will often have just one
carriageway (i.e. one highway way) and you will usually have 2 ways for the
tram tracks (if you draw each of them).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

[SelfishSeahorse]

Anyway, i'm wondering why tram tracks that are embedded in a street are
mapped with separate ways instead of reusing the street way? Separating
them seems topologically wrong.

For example at this pedestrian crossing [1] one doesn't first cross tram
tracks, then the street and then again tram tracks, but a street with
embedded tracks in its mid. Or driving westwards on Schlossstrasse and
turnung into Friedbühlweg at the nearby crossroads [2], one doesn't cross
any tram tracks.

[1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/545874049
[2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/696678395

Regards
Markus
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Impossible to maintain ? Maybe but let’s give a try !


djakk


Le ven. 2 nov. 2018 à 08:23, Martin Koppenhoefer  a
écrit :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 1. Nov 2018, at 21:19, Roland Olbricht 
> wrote:
> >
> > opening_hours=...
> >for the operation times
>
>
> I’d suggest to use service_times which has the same syntax as opening
> hours but seems semantically more precise.
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Nov 2018, at 21:19, Roland Olbricht  wrote:
> 
> opening_hours=...
>for the operation times


I’d suggest to use service_times which has the same syntax as opening hours but 
seems semantically more precise.

Cheers, Martin 
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