Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Pumps (wells and many other things)

[Warin]

motion_driver=manual says Hands as the main way to drive the pump

That is not the only 'manual' drive...

Example - horse powered 
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/illustration/horse-powdered-pump-royalty-free-illustration/172430485

Note that the horse could be substituted by several humans.

Other methods exist .. such as connecting a bicycle to the pump, much more 
efficient use of human power.

Suggestion?

motion_driver=manual - Human or animal effort. ?

For alternatives to motion_driver consider power:source?

Note the colon follows its use in

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dgenerator

But I don' think pump:source=* could be used as some may confuse it between the 
power/energy source and the source of the fluid pumped.


The descriptions need work ... e..g replace 'typically' with 'example'?


On 13/4/20 11:31 am, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

A search for the phrase "motion driver' finds links to some software.

A search for "motion driver" + "pump" finds women's high-heel shoes.

Perhaps "motion driver' is not the correct term?

A search for "pump driver" finds things about pumps, at least.

Maybe "pump_driver=*" is a better key?

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, François Lacombe  wrote:

Hi all

RFC on pumping proposal is went really well, with significant progresses
made these past weeks thanks to useful comments received (see Talk).
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal

Tagging has been adapted to take care of several concerns regarding
windpumps, wells and semantic complexity relative to benefits it brings.
It is still proposed to discourage pump=powered/manual as they're at least
redundant with proposed classification of pumps/drivers technologies.
Important distinction between manual and powered pumps is still possible
with the help of motion_driver key.

I'm now looking for more examples with increased diversity of situations.
Due to covid lockdown I'm not able to get pictures of pumps in place. It
would be a pleasure to give a try to proposed tagging if someone has
existing pictures to challenge it.
Wikimedia commons will also be a privileged source of pictures as well.

Thank in advance for any additional input, all the best

François

Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 22:51, François Lacombe 
a écrit :


Hi Joseph and thank you for such a quick and complete comment session

That 7 points allowed to change the proposal a bit and include
man_made=windmill, watermill instead of actuator.
Answers are available in Talk :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal
I hope lacks of clarity are now fixed.
In case an answers solve a problem, don't hesitate to use {{Resolved|
comment}} template to close it.

Again, anyone would be welcome to propose situations involving pumps to
complete example sections.

All the best

François

Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 03:27, Joseph Eisenberg

a écrit :


I oppose deprecating pump=powered, pump=manual, and pump=no. This is a
simple, clear system for use with water wells, and it is widely
supported.

1) Clarify use with man_made=water_well

Currently 88% of uses of pump=* are with man_made=water_well (the rest
are with amenity=drinking_water) and with the 3 values: pump=powered,
pump=manual, pump=no. This is a simple and intuitive system for
mapping wells in developing countries and rural areas.

Please clarify if you are asking mappers to add a separate
man_made=pump feature or if that should only be used when there is no
man_made=water_well feature.

Why should we drop the use of pump=powered, pump=manual, pump=no?
Distinguishing pump=powered, pump=manual is easy: you can hear the
sound of an electric or diesel motor, and a manual pump has an obvious
handle or similar. And pump=no is a well with a bucket or similar.

2) How can mappers figure out the technology of the pump?
How are mappers expected to find out the pump technology mechanism?
Most pumps are located deep inside the well, or hidden in a service
building or structure next to the well. And why would this information
be worth mapping?

3) Key:actuator
The proposal mentions: actuator=windmill, actuator=watermill, and
actuator=beam_engine. What do these have to do with pumps?

The current use of the key actuator is quite rare, but the documented
values are: actuator=manual, actuator=electric_motor,
actuator=pneumatic_cylinder, actuator=hydraulic_cylinder - these don't
seem to have anything to do with windmills and watermills?

What about the exiting tags man_made=windpump, man_made=windmill,
man_made=watermill? Are you proposing to deprecate these common tags?

(also in the examples "actuator=manual" is mentioned, but it isn't in
the
list)

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 3/19/20, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:

François,

Could you please simplify the "==Proposal==" section and make it 100%
clear:

1) What new Keys and Tags (Key=Value) are being approved by the
proposal
2) What old Keys and Tags are being deprecated
3) Move 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Pumps (wells and many other things)

[Joseph Eisenberg]

A search for the phrase "motion driver' finds links to some software.

A search for "motion driver" + "pump" finds women's high-heel shoes.

Perhaps "motion driver' is not the correct term?

A search for "pump driver" finds things about pumps, at least.

Maybe "pump_driver=*" is a better key?

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, François Lacombe  wrote:
> Hi all
>
> RFC on pumping proposal is went really well, with significant progresses
> made these past weeks thanks to useful comments received (see Talk).
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal
>
> Tagging has been adapted to take care of several concerns regarding
> windpumps, wells and semantic complexity relative to benefits it brings.
> It is still proposed to discourage pump=powered/manual as they're at least
> redundant with proposed classification of pumps/drivers technologies.
> Important distinction between manual and powered pumps is still possible
> with the help of motion_driver key.
>
> I'm now looking for more examples with increased diversity of situations.
> Due to covid lockdown I'm not able to get pictures of pumps in place. It
> would be a pleasure to give a try to proposed tagging if someone has
> existing pictures to challenge it.
> Wikimedia commons will also be a privileged source of pictures as well.
>
> Thank in advance for any additional input, all the best
>
> François
>
> Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 22:51, François Lacombe 
> a écrit :
>
>> Hi Joseph and thank you for such a quick and complete comment session
>>
>> That 7 points allowed to change the proposal a bit and include
>> man_made=windmill, watermill instead of actuator.
>> Answers are available in Talk :
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal
>> I hope lacks of clarity are now fixed.
>> In case an answers solve a problem, don't hesitate to use {{Resolved|
>> comment}} template to close it.
>>
>> Again, anyone would be welcome to propose situations involving pumps to
>> complete example sections.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 03:27, Joseph Eisenberg
>> 
>> a écrit :
>>
>>> I oppose deprecating pump=powered, pump=manual, and pump=no. This is a
>>> simple, clear system for use with water wells, and it is widely
>>> supported.
>>>
>>> 1) Clarify use with man_made=water_well
>>>
>>> Currently 88% of uses of pump=* are with man_made=water_well (the rest
>>> are with amenity=drinking_water) and with the 3 values: pump=powered,
>>> pump=manual, pump=no. This is a simple and intuitive system for
>>> mapping wells in developing countries and rural areas.
>>>
>>> Please clarify if you are asking mappers to add a separate
>>> man_made=pump feature or if that should only be used when there is no
>>> man_made=water_well feature.
>>>
>>> Why should we drop the use of pump=powered, pump=manual, pump=no?
>>> Distinguishing pump=powered, pump=manual is easy: you can hear the
>>> sound of an electric or diesel motor, and a manual pump has an obvious
>>> handle or similar. And pump=no is a well with a bucket or similar.
>>>
>>> 2) How can mappers figure out the technology of the pump?
>>> How are mappers expected to find out the pump technology mechanism?
>>> Most pumps are located deep inside the well, or hidden in a service
>>> building or structure next to the well. And why would this information
>>> be worth mapping?
>>>
>>> 3) Key:actuator
>>> The proposal mentions: actuator=windmill, actuator=watermill, and
>>> actuator=beam_engine. What do these have to do with pumps?
>>>
>>> The current use of the key actuator is quite rare, but the documented
>>> values are: actuator=manual, actuator=electric_motor,
>>> actuator=pneumatic_cylinder, actuator=hydraulic_cylinder - these don't
>>> seem to have anything to do with windmills and watermills?
>>>
>>> What about the exiting tags man_made=windpump, man_made=windmill,
>>> man_made=watermill? Are you proposing to deprecate these common tags?
>>>
>>> (also in the examples "actuator=manual" is mentioned, but it isn't in
>>> the
>>> list)
>>>
>>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>>
>>> On 3/19/20, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
>>> > François,
>>> >
>>> > Could you please simplify the "==Proposal==" section and make it 100%
>>> > clear:
>>> >
>>> > 1) What new Keys and Tags (Key=Value) are being approved by the
>>> > proposal
>>> > 2) What old Keys and Tags are being deprecated
>>> > 3) Move the Proposal section to the top, before Rationale, so people
>>> > will be clear on what the proposal is going to do if it is approved.
>>> >
>>> > This is the current "==Proposal==" section. It's not clear what new
>>> > tags are being proposed and what old tags are being deprecated.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "It is proposed to complete OSM tagging for pumps used in any domain
>>> > with the following tags :
>>> >
>>> > man_made=pump
>>> > pump:output=*
>>> > pump=* is currenlty established to state if a water well runs with a
>>> > powered or manual pump (actually how the pump 

Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[António Madeira]

Sorry, my bad.

Às 19:45 de 12/04/2020, Volker Schmidt escreveu:

My statement about the limitation to Germany regarded the tag
city_limit=* , not the tag traffic_sign=city_limit.

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 20:07 António Madeira, mailto:antoniomade...@gmx.com>> wrote:

That's not correct. This tag is used all over the world, as you can
check at taginfo:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/traffic_sign=city_limit#map

Às 10:55 de 12/04/2020, Volker Schmidt escreveu:
> Looking closer it turns out that the city_limit=* key is exclusively
> used in Germany, but nowhere else. But Germany is not the only
country
> that use end-of-city-limit signs. Are there other alternatives?
>
> Volker


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Pumps (wells and many other things)

[François Lacombe]

Hi all

RFC on pumping proposal is went really well, with significant progresses
made these past weeks thanks to useful comments received (see Talk).
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal

Tagging has been adapted to take care of several concerns regarding
windpumps, wells and semantic complexity relative to benefits it brings.
It is still proposed to discourage pump=powered/manual as they're at least
redundant with proposed classification of pumps/drivers technologies.
Important distinction between manual and powered pumps is still possible
with the help of motion_driver key.

I'm now looking for more examples with increased diversity of situations.
Due to covid lockdown I'm not able to get pictures of pumps in place. It
would be a pleasure to give a try to proposed tagging if someone has
existing pictures to challenge it.
Wikimedia commons will also be a privileged source of pictures as well.

Thank in advance for any additional input, all the best

François

Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 22:51, François Lacombe 
a écrit :

> Hi Joseph and thank you for such a quick and complete comment session
>
> That 7 points allowed to change the proposal a bit and include
> man_made=windmill, watermill instead of actuator.
> Answers are available in Talk :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Pumping_proposal
> I hope lacks of clarity are now fixed.
> In case an answers solve a problem, don't hesitate to use {{Resolved|
> comment}} template to close it.
>
> Again, anyone would be welcome to propose situations involving pumps to
> complete example sections.
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 03:27, Joseph Eisenberg 
> a écrit :
>
>> I oppose deprecating pump=powered, pump=manual, and pump=no. This is a
>> simple, clear system for use with water wells, and it is widely
>> supported.
>>
>> 1) Clarify use with man_made=water_well
>>
>> Currently 88% of uses of pump=* are with man_made=water_well (the rest
>> are with amenity=drinking_water) and with the 3 values: pump=powered,
>> pump=manual, pump=no. This is a simple and intuitive system for
>> mapping wells in developing countries and rural areas.
>>
>> Please clarify if you are asking mappers to add a separate
>> man_made=pump feature or if that should only be used when there is no
>> man_made=water_well feature.
>>
>> Why should we drop the use of pump=powered, pump=manual, pump=no?
>> Distinguishing pump=powered, pump=manual is easy: you can hear the
>> sound of an electric or diesel motor, and a manual pump has an obvious
>> handle or similar. And pump=no is a well with a bucket or similar.
>>
>> 2) How can mappers figure out the technology of the pump?
>> How are mappers expected to find out the pump technology mechanism?
>> Most pumps are located deep inside the well, or hidden in a service
>> building or structure next to the well. And why would this information
>> be worth mapping?
>>
>> 3) Key:actuator
>> The proposal mentions: actuator=windmill, actuator=watermill, and
>> actuator=beam_engine. What do these have to do with pumps?
>>
>> The current use of the key actuator is quite rare, but the documented
>> values are: actuator=manual, actuator=electric_motor,
>> actuator=pneumatic_cylinder, actuator=hydraulic_cylinder - these don't
>> seem to have anything to do with windmills and watermills?
>>
>> What about the exiting tags man_made=windpump, man_made=windmill,
>> man_made=watermill? Are you proposing to deprecate these common tags?
>>
>> (also in the examples "actuator=manual" is mentioned, but it isn't in the
>> list)
>>
>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> On 3/19/20, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
>> > François,
>> >
>> > Could you please simplify the "==Proposal==" section and make it 100%
>> > clear:
>> >
>> > 1) What new Keys and Tags (Key=Value) are being approved by the proposal
>> > 2) What old Keys and Tags are being deprecated
>> > 3) Move the Proposal section to the top, before Rationale, so people
>> > will be clear on what the proposal is going to do if it is approved.
>> >
>> > This is the current "==Proposal==" section. It's not clear what new
>> > tags are being proposed and what old tags are being deprecated.
>> >
>> >
>> > "It is proposed to complete OSM tagging for pumps used in any domain
>> > with the following tags :
>> >
>> > man_made=pump
>> > pump:output=*
>> > pump=* is currenlty established to state if a water well runs with a
>> > powered or manual pump (actually how the pump is driven if it exists).
>> > We also need a terminology to define the pump technology as many sorts
>> > exist in industry. It's then proposed to refurbish this tag with
>> > values related to pumps mechnanisms.
>> >
>> > Devices used to drive pumps (and get water in case of water wells)
>> > would be better described with existing actuator=* tag instead of
>> > pump. handle=* is also suitable for manual pumps or emergency usage
>> > with manual action when power isn't available.
>> > This 

Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 12.04.20 à 13:49, Alexey Zakharenkov a écrit :
> direction=backward is invalid value in this context.

we do the same for stop, give_away, ...
and those ways may also be splitted
if both ways are in the same direction, the direction is just
as understandable as on a node in the middle of a way.
however I don't know if the editors pay attention to this when
reversing the direction of one of the 2 paths

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 12.04.20 à 12:54, Volker Schmidt a écrit :
> Do we have a tagging convention for "city limit end"

if you place the node on the way the end of the city in one direction is
logically its beginning in the other direction. so I don't make a
difference between begin and end, it's the limit between inside/outside.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[Volker Schmidt]

My statement about the limitation to Germany regarded the tag city_limit=*
, not the tag traffic_sign=city_limit.

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 20:07 António Madeira,  wrote:

> That's not correct. This tag is used all over the world, as you can
> check at taginfo:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/traffic_sign=city_limit#map
>
> Às 10:55 de 12/04/2020, Volker Schmidt escreveu:
> > Looking closer it turns out that the city_limit=* key is exclusively
> > used in Germany, but nowhere else. But Germany is not the only country
> > that use end-of-city-limit signs. Are there other alternatives?
> >
> > Volker
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[António Madeira]

That's not correct. This tag is used all over the world, as you can
check at taginfo:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/traffic_sign=city_limit#map

Às 10:55 de 12/04/2020, Volker Schmidt escreveu:

Looking closer it turns out that the city_limit=* key is exclusively
used in Germany, but nowhere else. But Germany is not the only country
that use end-of-city-limit signs. Are there other alternatives?

Volker



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Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Apr 2020, at 13:54, Alexey Zakharenkov  wrote:
> 
> direction=backward is invalid value in this context. The road is often split 
> at city_limit node to reflect the change in highway properties (primarily 
> max_speed), and backward/forward notion is undefined for an endpoint of a 
> segment. It has even less sense for a node aside a road.


+1, it should be generally discouraged to use node tags that refer to a way 
direction, because it raises the complexity and it seems a less reliable and 
stable way to describe things. 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[Volker Schmidt]

Thanks, Alexey.
I was not aware of the city_limit=* key.
And I realize that I never have the direction key properly with
traffic_sign=city_limit. (forward/backward in stead of the cardinal
directions)

Looking closer it turns out that the city_limit=* key is exclusively used
in Germany, but nowhere else. But Germany is not the only country that use
end-of-city-limit signs. Are there other alternatives?

Volker

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:54, Alexey Zakharenkov  wrote:

>
> Hello.
>
> direction=backward is invalid value in this context. The road is often
> split at city_limit node to reflect the change in highway properties
> (primarily max_speed), and backward/forward notion is undefined for an
> endpoint of a segment. It has even less sense for a node aside a road.
> Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:direction
>
> You are looking for this:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:city_limit
> I.e. put also city_limit=begin/end (optional 'both' value is assumed) tag
> and direction=N/E/S/W/... tag to indicate how the sign is oriented.
>
> Best regards,
> Alexey
>
>
>
> 12.04.2020, 13:56, "Volker Schmidt" :
>
> Do we have a tagging convention for "city limit end" (example)
> 
> for those cases where there is no "city limit start" sign in the opposite
> direction, for example on a one-way street leaving the agglomeration?
> Would it be correct to use the  traffic_sign
> =city_limit with
> direction=backward in this case?
>
> ,
>
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Re: [Tagging] city limit sign end

[Alexey Zakharenkov]

 Hello. direction=backward is invalid value in this context. The road is often split at city_limit node to reflect the change in highway properties (primarily max_speed), and backward/forward notion is undefined for an endpoint of a segment. It has even less sense for a node aside a road. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:direction You are looking for this:https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:city_limitI.e. put also city_limit=begin/end (optional 'both' value is assumed) tag and direction=N/E/S/W/... tag to indicate how the sign is oriented. Best regards,Alexey   12.04.2020, 13:56, "Volker Schmidt" :Do we have a tagging convention for "city limit end" (example)for those cases where there is no "city limit start" sign in the opposite direction, for example on a one-way street leaving the agglomeration?Would it be correct to use the  traffic_sign=city_limit with direction=backward in this case? ,___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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[Tagging] city limit sign end

[Volker Schmidt]

Do we have a tagging convention for "city limit end" (example)

for those cases where there is no "city limit start" sign in the opposite
direction, for example on a one-way street leaving the agglomeration?
Would it be correct to use the  traffic_sign
=city_limit with
direction=backward in this case?
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