Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[brad]

Usually this time of year there are many trees down from the winter, and 
trail users or the forest service will eventually get around to clearing 
them.   If there aren't enough motivated users, and/or the FS has 
abandoned it,  one of Andrews ideas is probably appropriate.


On 6/25/20 6:56 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
It's a tricky one, but whatever is done I would need re-checking 
frequently to know when it was cleared.


You could just add a single barrier=log somewhere as a rough 
approximation, or add barrier=log to the way segment which is 
affected. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=log says it 
should only be used on a node, but if you don't know exactly where 
then I'd say using it on the way would be fine.


You could also consider using one of the stages of decay lifecycle 
prefix 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix#Stages_of_decay eg 
disused:highway=track, where disused is "Not currently available for 
use, but could be reinstated easily".


For a path my rule of thumb is sac_scale=demandig_mountain_hiking 
means you need to use your hands and arms to get over something, so if 
that's the case because of logs, then I'd tag it that way.


Lastly you can add a description so users could be presented with a 
text notice about the way 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:description


On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Mike Thompson > wrote:


Hello,

How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many
fallen trees across it? There are too many to map each one with a
node tagged barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically
difficult.  Horse and bicycle travel are legal but probably
physically impossible.  Motorized travel is prohibited, and would
probably be physically impossible anyway.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Mike

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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Andrew Harvey]

It's a tricky one, but whatever is done I would need re-checking frequently
to know when it was cleared.

You could just add a single barrier=log somewhere as a rough approximation,
or add barrier=log to the way segment which is affected.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=log says it should only be
used on a node, but if you don't know exactly where then I'd say using it
on the way would be fine.

You could also consider using one of the stages of decay lifecycle prefix
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix#Stages_of_decay eg
disused:highway=track, where disused is "Not currently available for use,
but could be reinstated easily".

For a path my rule of thumb is sac_scale=demandig_mountain_hiking means you
need to use your hands and arms to get over something, so if that's the
case because of logs, then I'd tag it that way.

Lastly you can add a description so users could be presented with a text
notice about the way http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:description

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen trees
> across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged
> barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically difficult.  Horse and
> bicycle travel are legal but probably physically impossible.  Motorized
> travel is prohibited, and would probably be physically impossible anyway.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Rob Savoye]

On 6/25/20 5:44 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:

> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen
> trees across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged
> barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically difficult.  Horse and
> bicycle travel are legal but probably physically impossible.  Motorized
> travel is prohibited, and would probably be physically impossible anyway.

  I do know a trail to Kit Carson Peak like that, but around here the
downed trees don't last long, so I'm not sure if I'd map them.

- rob -


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[Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Mike Thompson]

Hello,

How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen trees
across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged
barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically difficult.  Horse and
bicycle travel are legal but probably physically impossible.  Motorized
travel is prohibited, and would probably be physically impossible anyway.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Mike
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Re: [Tagging] Automated edit of image tags suggestion

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 15:19 Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

>
> there might be an issue with multiple images separated by ; because the
> semicolon does not have to be escaped in URLs. If the protocol is given
> every time it might still be ok? e.g.
> http://111.com/example1.jpg;http://111.com/example2.jpg would be
> unambiguous because you cannot have // in the middle of a filename, or can
> you?
>

You can have just about any character sequence in a url, particularly in
the query part - including two slashes in a row.
http://111.com/image_service?id=bla-$3_http://bla.com can be a valid image
url (if a confusing and unusual one)
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Re: [Tagging] Automated edit of image tags suggestion

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Jun 2020, at 19:59, pangoSE  wrote:
> 
> image=File:* -> commons_file=File:* image=Category:* -> 
> commons_category=Category:* image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:* 
> -> commons_file=File:* image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:* -> 
> commons_category=Category:*


splitting commons into files and categories (different keys) seems to be an 
improvement, although neither of these keys are existing at the moment. 
Following what we have so far, “wikimedia_commons_file” and “wikimedia_commons_ 
category“ would fit better, although a bit unwieldy.

From a datauser perspective, does it really improve the situation? Right now 
you have to check for 2 “main” keys: image and wikimedia_commons (leaving 
wikidata out for the moment), and then you can see what you find in the value 
(url, file: category: etc.) after your proposed edit you would have to check 
for more keys but could hope that the values would be better standardized. And 
you’d have to run a bot frequently to keep things “clean”.

Btw, there are also a few images tagged with a “flickr” key (~1200)
While it could eventually make sense to make an exception for wikimedia 
commons, I do not believe we should create a new key for every image hosting 
service.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Automated edit of image tags suggestion

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi pangoSE,

On 6/25/20 19:57, pangoSE wrote:
> I recently started discussing the problems related to urls and
> File:filename.* that links to wikimedia_commons using the tag. See
> Talk:Key:image#Discourage_linking_to_commons_files_and_migrate_all_File:filename..2A_values_and_direct_urls_to_wikimedia_commons
> and tagging.

I'm afraid I do not follow.

> Algorithm 1Edit image=File:* -> wikimedia_commons=File:*
> image=Category:* -> wikimedia_commons=Category:*
> image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:* ->
> wikimedia_commons=File:*
> image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:* ->
> wikimedia_commons=Category:*

I don't understand why this is necessary. Would you, before changing an
"image=File:x" into "wikimedia_commons=File:x", even check whether the
file exists there?

There are currently 28k objects with wikimedia_commons in the database.
Your edit would treble that. I'm not convinced that automatic edits that
massively boost a niche tag are a good idea.

> There are some image= tags that link to multiple images separated by
> ";". These will be manually migrated to contain only one image that is
> not linking to commons and the rest in a note, note1, noteX if multiple
> urls.

Why on earth would you do that?

> image=File:* -> commons_file=File:* image=Category:* ->
> commons_category=Category:*
> image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:* -> commons_file=File:*
> image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:* ->
> commons_category=Category:*

I am not comfortable with inventing new tags to better match Wikimedia
Commons' namespace model. Remember, Wikimedia commons is, for us, just
one of many potential image providers. Would we want to introduce
various extra tags for each?

> There are some image= tags that link to multiple images separated by
> ";". These will be manually migrated to contain only one image that is
> not linking to commons and the rest in a note, note1, noteX if multiple
> urls.

Again, moving valid information into note tags which are free-form human
language is the worst idea of all. Parsing a semi-colon should be much
easier than parsing a note tag!

I am against the edit, and I also find the style of dumping an
unformatted wiki page onto the mailing list for discussion a bit
disrespectful.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Automated edit of image tags suggestion

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Jun 2020, at 19:59, pangoSE  wrote:
> 
> There are some image= tags that link to multiple images separated by ";". 
> These will be manually migrated to contain only one image that is not linking 
> to commons and the rest in a note, note1, noteX if multiple urls. 


there might be an issue with multiple images separated by ; because the 
semicolon does not have to be escaped in URLs. If the protocol is given every 
time it might still be ok? e.g. 
http://111.com/example1.jpg;http://111.com/example2.jpg would be unambiguous 
because you cannot have // in the middle of a filename, or can you?

Generally, putting additional image urls in the note tag does not seem to be an 
improvement. Why “note” and “note1”, rather than for example “image1”? Note 
does not have a semantic meaning that makes it suitable for image urls. If I 
was right in the previous paragraph and the semicolon followed by a protocol is 
unambiguous, we should rather keep these as they are.

Cheers 
Martin



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[Tagging] Automated edit of image tags suggestion

[pangoSE]

 Originalmeddelande 
Från: pangoSE 
Skickat: 25 juni 2020 19:49:58 CEST
Till: tagg...@lists.openstreetmap.org
Ämne: Automated edit of image tags suggestion

Below is a copy of the text at: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/pangoSE#Key:image


Key:imageEdit

There are serious problems with the use of this key in the database. 

I recently started discussing the problems related to urls and File:filename.* 
that links to wikimedia_commons using the tag. See 
Talk:Key:image#Discourage_linking_to_commons_files_and_migrate_all_File:filename..2A_values_and_direct_urls_to_wikimedia_commons
 and tagging. 

Algorithm 1Edit image=File:* -> wikimedia_commons=File:* image=Category:* -> 
wikimedia_commons=Category:* image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:* -> 
wikimedia_commons=File:* image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:* -> 
wikimedia_commons=Category:*

There are some image= tags that link to multiple images separated by ";". These 
will be manually migrated to contain only one image that is not linking to 
commons and the rest in a note, note1, noteX if multiple urls. 

There are some elements like https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/674919702 that 
both link to a commons category with wikimedia_commons= and an additional 
image= that links to one of those images. I will not touch this as it would 
probably be best to introduce new tags commons_image and commons_category for 
this usecase like Yurik did in the tagging discussion. 

There are some urls that link to a category and the media viewer. This is not 
always working (see [1]) but will not be touched by this edit as there have not 
been a discussion of this practice yet to my knowledge. 

Algorithm 2Edit 

Based on suggestions by Yurik of separating the file and category references. 

image=File:* -> commons_file=File:* image=Category:* -> 
commons_category=Category:* image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:* -> 
commons_file=File:* image=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:* -> 
commons_category=Category:*

Note commons_file could also link to a video. 

There are some image= tags that link to multiple images separated by ";". These 
will be manually migrated to contain only one image that is not linking to 
commons and the rest in a note, note1, noteX if multiple urls. 

There are some elements like https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/674919702 that 
both link to a commons category with wikimedia_commons= and an additional 
image= that links to one of those images. These will be changed to commons_file 
and commons_category. 

There are some urls that link to a category and the media viewer. This is not 
always working (see [2]) but will not be touched by this edit as there have not 
been a discussion of this practice yet to my knowledge. 

Affected featuresEdit 

This edit will affect about 80,000 elements in the database. There are >80,000 
image= tags with links to wikimedia commons where 50,000 of them is in Germany 
alone. 

ExecutionEdit 

Changesets will be kept small ie. country size bbox maximum. For Germany there 
are ~50150 so there I will keep the bbox region sized. 

I will use JOSM to make the changes using find/replace. 

DiscussionEdit 



Discussion  

 







Last edited 5 months ago by PangoSE 



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[Tagging] Name for new wiki pages about roles of members in route relations?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Since the proposal
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Recreational_route_relation_roles
was approved, there needs to be a new documentation page for the roles
"main", "alternative", etc.

Should individual pages for these roles be located at something like
Role:main and Role:alternative?

Or is it best to make up a new general page to describe them all, like "Roles
for route relations

"?

– Joseph Eisenberg
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