Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 12:26, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

>
> The query only returns a count of how many elements it found. If you want
> to map them you'll need a modified version:
>
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VDp
>

  Thanks!

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Warin]

On 30/6/20 11:16 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 30. Jun 2020, at 15:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
 wrote:

Is there some chance that any of them is valid?


IMHO not, these are likely autocompletion bloopers.



Highly likely these are errors. However it is not impossible that a number 
could be used as a house name.


  I’d support an automatic retagging effort to addr:housenumber (unless there 
is already a different housenumber)


I would not support auto retagging. Contact the mappers and ask them.
I have come across one or two of these, contacted the mapper and one mapper 
agreed that it was an error.
The other mapper argued, settled by web search evidence that it was not the 
name.


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Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Andrew Davidson]

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:15 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> " This query returned no nodes. In OSM, only nodes contain coordinates.
> For example, a way cannot be displayed without its nodes"
>
> Is there a hiccup in the way it's written, or is my system playing up this
> morning?
>

The query only returns a count of how many elements it found. If you want
to map them you'll need a modified version:

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VDp
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

So just a quick idea, what do you think if we subtyped amenity=café?

What non-UK people refer to as a café:
amenity=cafe + cafe=coffeehouse

Diners/greasy spoon and whatnot:
amenity=cafe + cafe=diner

Or even this one:
amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse

$SUBJECT:
amenity=cafe + cafe=cukrászda***
(***We're still working on the word to recommend, but many came up
already, like dessert, dessert_bakery, sweet_bakery, fancy_bakery,
patisserie and others)

For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.



On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:40 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:13, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
>>
>>
>> It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to 
>> Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after or 
>> between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even a 
>> meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in a 
>> calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about the 
>> food or the coffee :)
>
>
> So nobody would ever go to a cukrászda alone, just to eat the limited fare.
> And nobody would ever have a romantic meeting at a McDonalds.  Except
> that both of those happen.  Yeah, I know you said main function, but it's all
> blurred together, especially with the existing tags.  McDonalds calls itself
> a fast food restaurant yet I get mocked because it occupies my mental
> space for "cafe" and I think of "fast food" as a type of cuisine.
>
> The discussions so far make things murkier.  At one moment bkil argues
> that cukrászda sell only coffee and should be split off, and that sounds
> sensible.  Then he says they sell cakes.  And sandwiches.  Which puts
> them into that broad category in the wiki for amenity=cafe, which
> encompasses anything from coffee shops to diners (but not if the
> diners sell fast food, everyone assures me).
>
> A cukrászda sounds almost like a UK coffee shop, which can be for
> socializing/meeting but is also for people who feel a little hungry.  Except
> places that start out as coffee shops in the UK usually end up selling more
> substantial meals too.
>
> It is a horrible mess.  Our tags, especially amenity=cafe, are a poor fit to
> reality.  Retagging everything would be the only way to bring some sense to 
> it.
> But that will never happen. Maybe the best we can do is carve out something 
> for
> coffee shops that can be applied to newly-mapped POIs and accept that the rest
> is a mess.  Doing that might let this thread die down.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> Maybe tag them amenity=takeaway
>
> Good idea.  Except that value is not officially agreed and isn't
> rendered.  Are you suggesting somebody propose it?

It doesn't look like being officially agreed has helped us much with cafe, so...

Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
we could start there.

>> and leave amenity=fast_food for the other kinds of
>> places?
>
> So you're saying that amenity=fast_food should only be used where
> there are seats?

Nah. If it's a place that an editor would consider a takeaway, tag it
as takeaway. Otherwise tag it as something else. amenity=fast_food
could become a less-specific fallback, like highway=road.

> That goes contrary to many people's
> expectations.  And sort of implies that takeaways don't
> serve fast food.

Not anymore than using highway=primary implies it isn't a road.

> In any case, given the number of places already
> mapped, retagging of that sort isn't feasible.

Eh, as opposed to retagging coffee shops or McDonald's being feasible?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

> But then how do we handle food places in food courts?
>
> They would all count as =fast_food, as everything is already cooked / 
> prepared, & they are takeaway only from the actual shopfront, but there is 
> seating & tables 5m's away, so are they takeaway or sit-down?
>

These kind of places around food courts are indeed amenity=fast_food
restaurants. They aren't takeaway=only, because they almost always
offer a tray, napkins, plates and utensils that you need to take back
after you are finished (or leave it at the common collection point),
although some may be throw-away and you get to use the waste basket,
table and chair as well.

If I took away my food from a restaurant and sat down right in front
of them, they would probably ask me to leave and stay out of sight.

But still if you are in general taking your food away, you only get a
box in a bag (or if you bring your own box and bag, you get nothing
other than your food).

How much I'd write in capacity=* is another question - actually adding
capacity=food_court and giving a total capacity on the separate food
court polygon would make more sense, but it's not standard practice
(yet).

> When I was working at the Uni several years ago, we'd go over to one of the 
> coffee shops for morning coffee. It was a kiosk only, & they only served tea 
> & coffee, together with bottled water & you could also buy bottles of milk 
> from them to take back to the staff kitchens. Fine, so it's a =coffeeshop. 
> But, they also had a container on the counter full of biscuits (cookies) for 
> sale! Does that then make them a cafe?
>

It's still a café as per the definition: you primarily go there to
grab a cup of coffee or tea, and you can also get something to go with
that - cookies (by the way, in Hungary, it's called tea cookies/tea
cakes/tea pastry/tea desserts just because of this!).

> Similar to the food-court set-up ^, there were tables & chairs out the front, 
> but not for their exclusive use - anybody could sit & have a chat, coffee or 
> eat their lunch that they'd brought from somewhere else.
>

I think I know what you mean, we also have these. If I need to bring
back something after I'm finished, it's not takeaway=only. Otherwise
you can add a bunch of picnic tables in front of the building with
access=customers and that would solve it for all intents and purposes.

> That (at least to me?) then raises the problem of opening hours (which I know 
> can easily be defined). The vast majority of "cafes / coffee shops" (places 
> you can get a tea / coffee & a light meal) around here open at ~6am, but they 
> then close at ~2-3pm - they're not open after work or for an evening meal.
> Similarly, most restaurants (full table service of a multi-course meal) don't 
> open till ~6pm, then stay open till 11-12.
> Does that affect the cafe / restaurant definition dilemma?
>

Here's an overview from Hungary.
A typical restaurant around here is open between 10:00-22:00 or 12:00-24:00.
A typical small pub stays open the longest, some are non-stop, but
most open in the morning and close in the evening.
Better and larger pubs typically follow the opening hours of
restaurants, maybe closing an hour or two later on party nights, so
let's say between 12:00-01:00.
A typical café/coffee shop opens in the morning and closes earlier in
the evening, like 08:00-20:00, some up to 9pm.
A typical cukrászda aligns with typical shops, open between
10:00-18:00, or some up to 7pm.
Fast food places vary a lot: they can be either non-stop, tied to the
opening hours of the containing facility (like shopping mall
10:00-20:00 or a theatre nearby) or mostly focused around lunch times.

You could typically frequent a cukrászda right after work hours or on
weekends, though some may consider giving a visit at the end of a
longish lunch break.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 13:15, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > That may be the situation where you are but not where I am.  More than
> > half of the fast food outlets in my town have no seats and are takeaway
> only.
> > Many chip shops I've encountered in the UK are takeaway only.
>
> You've repeatedly referred to them as takeaways.


It's a common idiom in the UK, Australia and New Zealand.  I cannot
guarantee that it is always the case, but every takeaway I recall
has sold fast food of some kind.  Few people would want to stand
in a queue while raw food is cooked for them.  The places aren't
large enough for the size of queue that would build up at peak
times if people were prepared to wait.  Chip shops occasionally
run out of chips or something else and the 10 minute wait seems
interminable, so people often change their order or walk out.

Pretty much all takeaways sell only fast food.  Not all
fast food outlets are takeaway=only.


> Maybe tag them amenity=takeaway


Good idea.  Except that value is not officially agreed and isn't
rendered.  Are you suggesting somebody propose it?


> and leave amenity=fast_food for the other kinds of
> places?
>

So you're saying that amenity=fast_food should only be used where
there are seats?  That goes contrary to many people's
expectations.  And sort of implies that takeaways don't
serve fast food.   In any case, given the number of places already
mapped, retagging of that sort isn't feasible.

What we have isn't very good.  I don't see any feasible way of
making it much better.  Maybe split off coffee shop from
cafe (except we'll never agree on a name because people will
want to map tea houses and bubble tea places, and juice-only
places, and milk bars).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 13:15, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:35, bkil  wrote:
>> Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
>> chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
>> item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
>> restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
>> tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
>> minority.
>
> That may be the situation where you are but not where I am.  More than
> half of the fast food outlets in my town have no seats and are takeaway only.
> Many chip shops I've encountered in the UK are takeaway only.

You've repeatedly referred to them as takeaways. Maybe tag them
amenity=takeaway and leave amenity=fast_food for the other kinds of
places?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 23:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> We have 15000 addresses such as addr:housename=3 (
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VBS )
>

That search is producing an error for me, once over Australia & then again
for Western Europe:

" This query returned no nodes. In OSM, only nodes contain coordinates. For
example, a way cannot be displayed without its nodes"

Is there a hiccup in the way it's written, or is my system playing up this
morning?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 23:20, Paul Allen  wrote:

> Except we don't have seating=yes.  We can differentiate
> with takeaway=yes|no|only.  However, apart from the chip shop and a
> Greggs, all
> the fast food joints near me that I can recollect are takeaway=only.
>

But then how do we handle food places in food courts?

They would all count as =fast_food, as everything is already cooked /
prepared, & they are takeaway only from the actual shopfront, but there is
seating & tables 5m's away, so are they takeaway or sit-down?

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 03:16, Paul Allen  wrote:

> What has happened is that some parts of the world interpret it differently.
> Which is not a good thing.
>

But I think we have to, because "cafes" vary so much?

As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
>> with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
>> even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
>> cukrászda).
>
>
> That's the problem.  Where do you draw the line?  Is a piece of cake food?
>

When I was working at the Uni several years ago, we'd go over to one of the
coffee shops for morning coffee. It was a kiosk only, & they only served
tea & coffee, together with bottled water & you could also buy bottles of
milk from them to take back to the staff kitchens. Fine, so it's a
=coffeeshop. But, they also had a container on the counter full of biscuits
(cookies) for sale! Does that then make them a cafe?

Similar to the food-court set-up ^, there were tables & chairs out the
front, but not for their exclusive use - anybody could sit & have a chat,
coffee or eat their lunch that they'd brought from somewhere else.

> A fast food restaurant, also known as a quick service restaurant (QSR)
>> within the industry,
>
>
> British English. and maybe just MY British English, but they're not
> restaurants.  To marketroids they may be, but to me they're not.
>

& I agree with you, even though it was me that mentioned it! :-)

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 05:13, Gábor Fekete  wrote:

>
> It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to
> Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after
> or between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even
> a meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in
> a calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about
> the food or the coffee :)
>

That (at least to me?) then raises the problem of opening hours (which I
know can easily be defined). The vast majority of "cafes / coffee shops"
(places you can get a tea / coffee & a light meal) around here open at
~6am, but they then close at ~2-3pm - they're not open after work or for an
evening meal.

Similarly, most restaurants (full table service of a multi-course meal)
don't open till ~6pm, then stay open till 11-12.

Does that affect the cafe / restaurant definition dilemma?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:13, Gábor Fekete  wrote:

>
> It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to
> Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after
> or between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even
> a meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in
> a calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about
> the food or the coffee :)
>

So nobody would ever go to a cukrászda alone, just to eat the limited fare.
And nobody would ever have a romantic meeting at a McDonalds.  Except
that both of those happen.  Yeah, I know you said main function, but it's
all
blurred together, especially with the existing tags.  McDonalds calls itself
a fast food restaurant yet I get mocked because it occupies my mental
space for "cafe" and I think of "fast food" as a type of cuisine.

The discussions so far make things murkier.  At one moment bkil argues
that cukrászda sell only coffee and should be split off, and that sounds
sensible.  Then he says they sell cakes.  And sandwiches.  Which puts
them into that broad category in the wiki for amenity=cafe, which
encompasses anything from coffee shops to diners (but not if the
diners sell fast food, everyone assures me).

A cukrászda sounds almost like a UK coffee shop, which can be for
socializing/meeting but is also for people who feel a little hungry.  Except
places that start out as coffee shops in the UK usually end up selling more
substantial meals too.

It is a horrible mess.  Our tags, especially amenity=cafe, are a poor fit to
reality.  Retagging everything would be the only way to bring some sense to
it.
But that will never happen. Maybe the best we can do is carve out something
for
coffee shops that can be applied to newly-mapped POIs and accept that the
rest
is a mess.  Doing that might let this thread die down.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] QA Tag for addr:city vs al8/al9 boundary

[Tod Fitch]

Simon is being much more polite and succinct than my first reaction. Checking 
the addr:city against the enclosing administrative boundary will not work well 
in the areas I am familiar with.

Let me give some examples from the western United States:

• The “town” I lived in growing up was Tucson, Arizona. It was used in our 
mailing address. It was used for emergency response. It was given in directions 
to our house. Except we lived about 20 KM outside the incorporated boundaries 
of the City of Tucson and our area was administered by Pima County.

• In the San Fernando Valley area of the Los Angeles metropolitan area you have 
a bunch of named areas, some having relatively distinct boundaries: Granada 
Hills, Chatsworth, Northridge, Van Nuys, etc. Those are the postal “town” names 
even though they are not administrative areas for anything other than delivery 
of goods and services to the addresses therein as they are officially part of 
the City of Los Angeles and administered by the City of Los Angeles. And don’t 
confuse those “towns” with Burbank, San Fernando, etc. also in the San Fernando 
Valley, which are separately incorporated real cities for real administrative 
boundaries.

• The “town” of Oracle, Arizona where my parents moved when they retired isn’t 
really a town even though it has a post office, a sheriff’s substation and even 
a regional county administration building with the name “Oracle” on it. It is 
an “unincorporated” area administered by the Pinal County (county seat is in 
Florence about 150 KM away). And it has no distinct boundaries. Heck, even 
“Biosphere II” which is promoted as being in Oracle is about 10 KM from the 
centroid of houses that are considered to be “in” Oracle. Oracle is another 
interesting case in that there is no local mail delivery: Residents are given a 
free postal box at the Oracle Post Office. The street addresses, including 
addr:city, are used for other delivery services (FedEx, UPS, etc.) and for 
emergency response (fire, ambulance, sheriff). So addr:city values there can’t 
even be considered as postal city values. They just “are”. There is no 
administrative boundary, no nothing. Except you need that information if you 
are going to give directions or hope that a call for emergency services results 
in people getting to the correct location.

This is even more misguided than the recently added validation check nagging 
you to put a “segregated” tag on multipurpose paths that allow both hikers and 
(mountain) bicyclists: The back country trails here vary between 1 meter (if 
we’ve done “trail maintenance” recently) to maybe 10 cm if it has been a while 
since our teams have been able to get to that section. Adding “segregated” to 
the list of tags for a back country trail is just noise around here.

At least “segregated” on a multipurpose backcountry path is only noise. 
Checking “addr:city” against the enclosing administrative boundary will do real 
harm if mappers “correct” things to “fix” the reported mismatches.

Cheers,
Tod


> On Jun 30, 2020, at 5:38 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> Signed PGP part
> IMHO addr:city is the "postal" city at least for countries that have such a 
> concept. With other words validating the tag against admin boundaries is 
> fundamentally flawed to start with and will only work in the cases in which 
> admin entity and postal city just happen to have the same name (in the 
> country I'm resident in there are nearly no post code boundaries that are 
> exactly the same as the administrative boundary with the same name).
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 30.06.2020 um 13:59 schrieb Florian Lohoff:
>> Hi,
>> i am running some address validation pipeline as others do aswell. In
>> Germany we have the case that most of the time the addr:city
>> on the addresses matches the name on the admin_level 8 boundary
>> (Sometimes admin_level 6).
>> 
>> So normally you have:
>> 
>>  boundary=administrative
>>  admin_level=8
>>  name=Gütersloh
>> 
>> And all addresses carry a
>> 
>>  addr:city=Gütersloh
>> 
>> Now there are some exceptions. One example i always paint red in the
>> validator is 33428 Marienfeld.
>> 
>> For Marienfeld there is an admin_level=8 which carries the
>> name=Harsewinkel which is correct for all "suburbs" or villages
>> belonging to Harsewinkel except Marienfeld.
>> 
>> Marienfeld itself carries a admin_level=9
>> 
>> So i'd like to have a place in OSM where i store this exceptions
>> information (There are plenty other places which have this
>> exception).
>> 
>> So i would propose to set an "addr:city=Marienfeld" on the admin_level=9
>> boundary. So the address validator knows that addresses contained within
>> this al9 should carry a different addr:city than they normally would
>> using the al8.
>> 
>> Other ideas?
>> 
>> Flo



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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Gábor Fekete]

> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 18:14:44 +0100
> From: Paul Allen 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda,
> cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria,
> konditorei, patisserie, ...
> [...]
> > As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
> > with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
> > even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
> > cukrászda).
>
> That's the problem.  Where do you draw the line?  Is a piece of cake food?
> How about a sandwich?  Some people's lunch consists of sandwiches and
> a piece of fruit.  Where do you draw the line between coffee house and
> diner?
>

It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to
Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after
or between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even
a meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in
a calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about
the food or the coffee :)

[...]
>
>

 Kind Regards,
feket
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[ael]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 05:29:44PM +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 12:58, bkil  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
> >
> 
> 
> > almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a
> > lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this
> > particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving
> > interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting
> > voices.
> >
> 
> So it appears to me, too.  My mental taxonomy of what is and is not a cafe
> clearly differs from that of other mappers in the UK.  For me the seating
> is important.  It is usually the case that a place without seating will
> normally sell fast food because people don't like standing in a queue for
> 20 minutes.  But I appear to be alone in thinking of McDonalds as a
> cafe with a particular cuisine and limited menu (and bizarre lengths of
> crispy potato instead of proper chips).

While I have not followed this discusson very closely, I thought that
Paul's view in the UK context was reasonable. Cafe' is very definitely 
not restricted to places selling coffee. The distinction between
fast-food and cafe' and even low end restaurants is a bit hazy. 
Fast-food is a fairly recent phase in British English, I think. Not
precisely defined, but mainly for franchised chains. But I think duck-
tagging applies in the UK: when I see one, I usually know what it is.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 17:55, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:

>
> From the point of a user, when I am about driving with my wife and we want
> to stop
> for a nice lunch, I search for cafes and restaurants somewhat nearby. If
> we drive 10
> Km to end up at a McDonals-like place we will be disappointed.
>

Sounds about right.  Depends on how tight money is, what sort of ambience
you want, and how hungry you are.  Then again...

I've been in situations where the only place nearby I could get a sit-down
meal was McDonalds.  I wasn't thrilled by that, but I preferred it to the
nearby Subway (food cold, no seats).  And I was in one situation where I
hadn't eaten all day, it was mid-afternoon and the only place with seats
selling food was KFC.  I'm not a fan of chicken, especially when it's
been sat under a heat lamp for far too long.

>From my perspective, the major split is between seats and no-seats.
If I'm on foot, and it's cold or raining, seats are what I'm looking for.
Only then do other factors influence my decision.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] QA Tag for addr:city vs al8/al9 boundary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi Tod, Simon,

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 09:49:50AM -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> Simon is being much more polite and succinct than my first reaction.
> Checking the addr:city against the enclosing administrative boundary
> will not work well in the areas I am familiar with.

Then make it a broader request for QA based tag hinting like noexit=yes
I dont care if this matches internationally. Addresses are basically
such a can of worms that one size will never fit all. And it fits
in Germany for i guess 90% of all al8/6/4

So i'd be happy to have some hierarchy of tags which are implementation
specific like

qahint:addrcity=Marienfeld

or the like.

Currently all the people doing QA do their own little QA
override/exception list maintenance which is a pain in the ass.

We share the same goal, we have the same problem and we have no
place to put this type of QA hinting/override. From OSM history
we do have tags like noexit for QA hinting. 

And i do have other issues i would like to QA hint aswell. We
do have 1% of strange constructs in the OSM Database which wont
fit into automatic checking and before we keep that beeing
red in every QA frontend and people breaking data because
some QA frontend showed it red, i'd rather do some universal
and consensual hinting of "you dont need to look at this data"
from a consistency based approach, please ignore it, or better
hint the QA to make better decisions. 

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away


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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:35, bkil  wrote:

> Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
> from. Let's get some facts straight. It may be true that almost all
> words in OSM are interpreted within British English, but amenity=café
> is an exception (we've decided to leave out the accent for the benefit
> of the international community).
>

It's not clear to me that amenity=cafe is an exception, going by the wiki.
What has happened is that some parts of the world interpret it differently.
Which is not a good thing.

>
> Other than the accidental clash in wording, it doesn't refer to a
> British cafe, greasy spoon or a diner


 But the wiki description matches those things.

B- without having visited one of
> those, I'd probably simply tag those as amenity=fast_food.
>

In many cafes in the UK, the food is NOT fast.  It's not pre-cooked and
going dry under a heat lamp, it is cooked from raw, on demand.

If you refer to:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe
>
> > amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal place with sit-down
> facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks. This includes
> coffee-shops and tea shops selling perhaps tea, coffee and cakes through to
> bistros selling meals with alcoholic drinks."
>

A very broad definition.  I now agree with you that it is too broad. Far too
broad.

>
> This highlights the fact that we've introduced this kind of amenity to
> tag a café or coffee-shop as per the text and Wikipedia.
>
> The pictures all show coffeehouses.
>
> The proposed icon that shows the most prominent feature of this
> amenity depicts a coffee mug.
>
> You can verify that this was the original intention and original icon
> of the creators as well:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dcafe#Voting


You can also see the discussions there.  Some people happy to have a
way of tagging places that sold coffee and cake.  Some people happy to
have a way of describing greasy spoons.  All happy that the same tag
referred to both.

If you think the community should reserve the tag amenity=cafe for
> diners and British cafe, what tag do you think the rest of the world
> should be using for their hundreds of thousands of coffeehouses?
>

Until you came along, amenity=cafe served both purposes.  You've
convinced me that it's too broad a meaning.

>
> As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
> with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
> even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
> cukrászda).


That's the problem.  Where do you draw the line?  Is a piece of cake food?
How about a sandwich?  Some people's lunch consists of sandwiches and
a piece of fruit.  Where do you draw the line between coffee house and
diner?


> Most small cafés around here usually lack a kitchen in
> which they could cook hot meals. I think offering something quick and
> simple like an omelette mentioned on the talk page could also be
> plausible, but people definitely aren't coming here for the food.
>

If nobody goes there for the food, why do they sell food?

I admit that 20 or 30 years ago, in Scotland, on Sundays pubs could only
sell drinks to "bona fide travellers" and only with food.  So they kept an
array of stale food on a shelf that was sold on Sundays, never consumed,
and returned to the shelf for the next Sunday.  They sold food, but nobody
went there for the food.  I doubt that situation applies to your cafes.

This also brings us back to amenity=fast_food:
>
> > A fast food restaurant, also known as a quick service restaurant (QSR)
> within the industry,


British English. and maybe just MY British English, but they're not
restaurants.  To marketroids they may be, but to me they're not.


> is a specific type of restaurant that serves fast food cuisine and has
> minimal table service. The food served in fast food restaurants is
> typically part of a "meat-sweet diet", offered from a limited menu, cooked
> in bulk in advance and kept hot, finished and packaged to order, and
> usually available for take away, though seating may be provided. Fast food
> restaurants are typically part of a restaurant chain or franchise operation
> that provides standardized ingredients and/or partially prepared foods and
> supplies to each restaurant through controlled supply channels. The term
> "fast food" was recognized in a dictionary by Merriam–Webster in 1951.[1]
>

So places selling that type of meal but have no seating are not fast food?
Or
do they count because having zero tables counts as "minimal table service"?

Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
> chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
> item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
> restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
> tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
> minority.

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Paul Allen:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 12:58, bkil http://bkil.hu>+a...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
> 
>  
> 
> almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a 
> lot of
> things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this particular 
> discussion
> it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving interpretations of 
> established
> tags that didn't find other supporting voices.
> 
> 
> So it appears to me, too.  My mental taxonomy of what is and is not a cafe
> clearly differs from that of other mappers in the UK. 

Well, here is a gourmet restaurant serving burgers:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5416925514
https://andershusa.com/the-noma-burger-rene-redzepi-reopens-with-take-away-and-wine-bar-copenhagen-denmark/


From the point of a user, when I am about driving with my wife and we want to 
stop
for a nice lunch, I search for cafes and restaurants somewhat nearby. If we 
drive 10
Km to end up at a McDonals-like place we will be disappointed.

If it is a gastropub selling burgers and french fries with a glass of wine or 
beer we
will be happy.


> For me the seating
> is important.  It is usually the case that a place without seating will
> normally sell fast food because people don't like standing in a queue for
> 20 minutes.  But I appear to be alone in thinking of McDonalds as a
> cafe with a particular cuisine and limited menu (and bizarre lengths of
> crispy potato instead of proper chips).
> 
> Approach it from the other direction.  Cafes in the US (called Diners there)
> sell burgers, amongst other things.  A diner might have a menu very
> similar to McDonalds.  Is that now a fast food joint rather than a cafe?
> If so, what if it limits the menu in summer and has a more expanded one
> in winter?
> 
> Things blur a lot in the real world and drawing lines is hard.  Especially 
> when
> marketers insist on erasing them.  There is a chain of transport cafes in
> the UK which describes them as "roadside restaurants."  Over the issue
> of seating versus food speed, I appear to be alone.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 12:58, bkil  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
>


> almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a
> lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this
> particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving
> interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting
> voices.
>

So it appears to me, too.  My mental taxonomy of what is and is not a cafe
clearly differs from that of other mappers in the UK.  For me the seating
is important.  It is usually the case that a place without seating will
normally sell fast food because people don't like standing in a queue for
20 minutes.  But I appear to be alone in thinking of McDonalds as a
cafe with a particular cuisine and limited menu (and bizarre lengths of
crispy potato instead of proper chips).

Approach it from the other direction.  Cafes in the US (called Diners there)
sell burgers, amongst other things.  A diner might have a menu very
similar to McDonalds.  Is that now a fast food joint rather than a cafe?
If so, what if it limits the menu in summer and has a more expanded one
in winter?

Things blur a lot in the real world and drawing lines is hard.  Especially
when
marketers insist on erasing them.  There is a chain of transport cafes in
the UK which describes them as "roadside restaurants."  Over the issue
of seating versus food speed, I appear to be alone.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

> I'd be happy with that.  Except we don't have seating=yes.  We can 
> differentiate
> with takeaway=yes|no|only.  However, apart from the chip shop and a Greggs, 
> all
> the fast food joints near me that I can recollect are takeaway=only.  So I 
> don't
> get a hint from the icon as to whether I can sit down or not.
>

Indeed as I've mentioned there exists lots of fast food places in
Hungary without seating. It's not a majority, but there's a
significant proportion. It's common at underpasses, serving gyros,
slices of pizza, burgers and other simple things that can be eaten
without utensils. Some serve these from their trucks, although some do
carry a few tables and foldable chairs as a convenience.

The majority operate from within brick and mortar buildings where even
the smallest ones have at least 4 tables and 8 chairs - most often
they also have elaborate outdoor_seating=* constructions right in
front of the venue - including seats, tables, waste baskets, umbrella,
sometimes even wind protections and electric or gas heating apparatus,
decorative plants and big screen TV.

We usually tag ones without seating as takeaway=only and/or
capacity=0. Note that capacity=0 also appears on some maps after the
name, like "Burger Place (0)", giving a hint at the seating capacity,
making seating=no redundant.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 30, 2020, 15:18 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 13:37, Philip Barnes <> p...@trigpoint.me.uk> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2020-06-29 at 12:52 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
>>
>  
>
>>> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
>>> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
>>> had to map a McD). 
>>>
>  
>
>> Come to think of it there isn't one in Aberystwyth even?
>>
>
> There was, last time I was there (ten years ago).  Aberystwyth is 30 miles 
> away
> and has its own mappers.  I leave them to it.
>
>>
>> McDonalds is definitely fast food, it certainly doesn't fit either the UK or 
>> continental definition of a cafe.
>>
>
> I don't see why it doesn't.  A chip shop is fast food, but how about a chip 
> shop
> with a cafe?  If you say it's still fast food, the one I'm thinking of calls 
> itself
> "Pendre Cafe."  Apart from the cuisine, I don't see much difference.  If I
> were looking for a cafe to sit down and eat something filling but cheap, I
> wouldn't exclude McDonalds from my search.
>
>>
>> Whilst it has tables it is definitely a take away where you can choose to 
>> sit down or walk out with your food, fast food with seating=yes is a better 
>> definition. 
>>
>
> I'd be happy with that.  Except we don't have seating=yes.  We can 
> differentiate
> with takeaway=yes|no|only.  However, apart from the chip shop and a Greggs, 
> all
> the fast food joints near me that I can recollect are takeaway=only.  So I 
> don't
> get a hint from the icon as to whether I can sit down or not.
>
If there is no tag  for that we may introduce new one, it is not a problem.
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 13:37, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Mon, 2020-06-29 at 12:52 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
>


> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).
>
>

> Come to think of it there isn't one in Aberystwyth even?
>

There was, last time I was there (ten years ago).  Aberystwyth is 30 miles
away
and has its own mappers.  I leave them to it.

>
> McDonalds is definitely fast food, it certainly doesn't fit either the UK
> or continental definition of a cafe.
>

I don't see why it doesn't.  A chip shop is fast food, but how about a chip
shop
with a cafe?  If you say it's still fast food, the one I'm thinking of
calls itself
"Pendre Cafe."  Apart from the cuisine, I don't see much difference.  If I
were looking for a cafe to sit down and eat something filling but cheap, I
wouldn't exclude McDonalds from my search.

>
> Whilst it has tables it is definitely a take away where you can choose to
> sit down or walk out with your food, fast food with seating=yes is a better
> definition.
>

I'd be happy with that.  Except we don't have seating=yes.  We can
differentiate
with takeaway=yes|no|only.  However, apart from the chip shop and a Greggs,
all
the fast food joints near me that I can recollect are takeaway=only.  So I
don't
get a hint from the icon as to whether I can sit down or not.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Jun 2020, at 15:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is there some chance that any of them is valid?


IMHO not, these are likely autocompletion bloopers. I’d support an automatic 
retagging effort to addr:housenumber (unless there is already a different 
housenumber)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2020-06-30 at 13:35 +0100, Philip Barnes wrote:
> On Mon, 2020-06-29 at 12:52 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
> > tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > > While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe
> > > where I am from, and would put money on most British people
> > > calling it a fast food restaurant 
> > 
> > I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would
> > glorify aMcDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant." 
> > Candle-lit quarterpounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?
> > 
> > However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it
> > covers
> > sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never
> > having
> > had to map a McD).  
> Come to think of it there isn't one in Aberystwyth even?

Answering my own post, there is one in Aber. Just couldnt picture it.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2020-06-30 at 14:45 +0200, bkil wrote:
> Yes, pretty much sounds like a cukrászda to me. ;-)
> 
> Especially if they prepare their own desserts and if they take custom
> orders (why shouldn't they if they already have a pastry cook?).
> 
> Do they have waited tables? Do they serve alcohol? It would be great
> if you could share a link to their website or some photos so we could
> see for ourselves.

I will see what I can find out, websites are not particularly helpful
at the moment as they are currently takeaway/delivery only.

Phil (trigpoint)


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[Tagging] Is there any case of valid numeric addr:housename - for example addr:housename?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

We have 15000 addresses such as addr:housename=3 ( 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VBS )

Is there some chance that any of them is valid? Because it seems to me that
editors should complain about addr:housename with just numbers.

I want to check worldwide situation before proposing doing it in say JOSM.
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

Yes, pretty much sounds like a cukrászda to me. ;-)

Especially if they prepare their own desserts and if they take custom
orders (why shouldn't they if they already have a pastry cook?).

Do they have waited tables? Do they serve alcohol? It would be great
if you could share a link to their website or some photos so we could
see for ourselves.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:35 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 30. Jun 2020, at 14:13, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
> Cuisine=dessert is perfectly valid, my local big town has
> two restaurants which only sell desserts.
>
>
>
> doesn’t seem to meet the requirements of the amenity=restaurant tag in 
> OpenStreetMap though („full sit down menus“), or are the desserts considered 
> „full menus“?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drestaurant
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] QA Tag for addr:city vs al8/al9 boundary

[Simon Poole]

IMHO addr:city is the "postal" city at least for countries that have
such a concept. With other words validating the tag against admin
boundaries is fundamentally flawed to start with and will only work in
the cases in which admin entity and postal city just happen to have the
same name (in the country I'm resident in there are nearly no post code
boundaries that are exactly the same as the administrative boundary with
the same name).

Simon

Am 30.06.2020 um 13:59 schrieb Florian Lohoff:
> Hi,
> i am running some address validation pipeline as others do aswell. In
> Germany we have the case that most of the time the addr:city
> on the addresses matches the name on the admin_level 8 boundary
> (Sometimes admin_level 6).
>
> So normally you have:
>
>   boundary=administrative
>   admin_level=8
>   name=Gütersloh
>
> And all addresses carry a
>
>   addr:city=Gütersloh
>
> Now there are some exceptions. One example i always paint red in the
> validator is 33428 Marienfeld.
>
> For Marienfeld there is an admin_level=8 which carries the
> name=Harsewinkel which is correct for all "suburbs" or villages
> belonging to Harsewinkel except Marienfeld.
>
> Marienfeld itself carries a admin_level=9
>
> So i'd like to have a place in OSM where i store this exceptions
> information (There are plenty other places which have this
> exception).
>
> So i would propose to set an "addr:city=Marienfeld" on the admin_level=9
> boundary. So the address validator knows that addresses contained within
> this al9 should carry a different addr:city than they normally would
> using the al8.
>
> Other ideas?
>
> Flo
>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2020-06-29 at 12:52 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe
> > where I am from, and would put money on most British people calling
> > it a fast food restaurant 
> 
> I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify
> aMcDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  Candle-lit
> quarterpounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?
> 
> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it
> covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).  
Come to think of it there isn't one in Aberystwyth even?

> For me there is a very, very big distinction between
> a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat. 
> Counter-only
> service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but
> speed
> is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to
> a
> chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a
> minute;
> or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10
> minutes
> while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
> matters far more to me.

McDonalds is definitely fast food, it certainly doesn't fit either the
UK or continental definition of a cafe.

Whilst it has tables it is definitely a take away where you can choose
to sit down or walk out with your food, fast food with seating=yes is a
better definition. 

In Welsh McDonalds this is slightly different as you are charged for
paper bags so do have to specify when ordering, or take your own bag.
At Chirk drivethrough it is amusing to see Big Macs being passed to the
driver one at a time .

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Jun 2020, at 14:13, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> Cuisine=dessert is perfectly valid, my local big town has
> two restaurants which only sell desserts.


doesn’t seem to meet the requirements of the amenity=restaurant tag in 
OpenStreetMap though („full sit down menus“), or are the desserts considered 
„full menus“?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drestaurant

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráre?, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2020-06-29 at 12:36 +0200, Gábor Fekete wrote:
> In Hungary in every restaurant before you pay the bill, the waiter
> asks if you want some dessert. She asks you, even if they only have
> pancakes as dessert. So one could tag every "amenity=restaurant" with
> "cuisine=*;dessert". But the restaurants do not want you to sit in
> only for a pancake, they want you to eat a whole course (food).
> 

Cuisine=dessert is perfectly valid, my local big town has
two restaurants which only sell desserts.

Phil (trigpoint)


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[Tagging] QA Tag for addr:city vs al8/al9 boundary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi,
i am running some address validation pipeline as others do aswell. In
Germany we have the case that most of the time the addr:city
on the addresses matches the name on the admin_level 8 boundary
(Sometimes admin_level 6).

So normally you have:

boundary=administrative
admin_level=8
name=Gütersloh

And all addresses carry a

addr:city=Gütersloh

Now there are some exceptions. One example i always paint red in the
validator is 33428 Marienfeld.

For Marienfeld there is an admin_level=8 which carries the
name=Harsewinkel which is correct for all "suburbs" or villages
belonging to Harsewinkel except Marienfeld.

Marienfeld itself carries a admin_level=9

So i'd like to have a place in OSM where i store this exceptions
information (There are plenty other places which have this
exception).

So i would propose to set an "addr:city=Marienfeld" on the admin_level=9
boundary. So the address validator knows that addresses contained within
this al9 should carry a different addr:city than they normally would
using the al8.

Other ideas?

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away


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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> it is you who knows the cukrászda best. You must decide (together with your 
> fellow local mappers who also know the feature), whether it is a subtype of 
> one of the established tags, or whether it is so different that it must get a 
> new tag. People from England or Italy can not help significantly you to make 
> this decision, because we do not know the feature well. We can only help you 
> by asking questions and trying to explain what the implications and meaning 
> of the established tags are (and only if we can concur on a common meaning 
> ;-) which is not a given, as shown by this discussion). You will also almost 
> everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a lot of 
> things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this particular 
> discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving interpretations of 
> established tags that didn't find other supporting voices.
>

Indeed your input is highly valuable. In parallel to this thread, your
answers have sparked a constructive 6th/7th wave of discussions in
Hungarian on matrix.

It's not that we disagree within the community, it's that we honestly
don't know the _right_ answer. We're trying to dig deeply into the
linguistic, historical and cultural aspects as well to better
understand the constraints.

It's a major blocker that the most important key words do not have
proper translation between English and Hungarian, or their approximate
translations misleadingly map to different concepts or subsets of
substantances (sütemény, péksütemény, cukrászsütemény, édesség,
cukrász, torta, desszert, ...).

We're trying to avoid this by trying to come up with new compound
words and/or generalizing by categories.

> I think this is what we all are striving for here, the problem is that it is 
> not obvious. It is clear we ideally want to be able to exactly understand 
> from the tags what kind of object it is, but if have too many different types 
> on the top level, it will make it difficult to use the data (you must know 
> all these tags and look for them in order to show them to your users), while 
> if we have too few top level tags, people must also look for all the subtags 
> in order not to get a wrong impression. We are looking for a "middle way", 
> and what makes sense in this regard is seen differently by different people. 
> That's why we are discussing here.
>

So we're just now working with another member of our community in
attempting to come up with a schema where we could "micromap" the type
of desserts served by category. This direction may allow for using
more general top level amenity and shop tags, although I personally
don't see an existing one that would be an _optimal_ choice. If not
done right, its maintenance burden may also be higher than
anticipated. In general, a new top level tag is sometimes understood
to be a shorthand for a bunch of other subtags (existing or virtual
ones), so we'll see what kind of redundancy this would introduce.

We're still doodling about this, but will keep you posted.

>> From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
>> workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
>> well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
>> because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
>> also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
>> mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then?
>
> by documenting it in the wiki, also in your language
>

So basically my argument here was that it is good practice to document
tags and useful combinations (I also do that as a hobby), we should in
general prefer not to use tag wordings that aren't "obvious" given
basic knowledge of English. Hence, I agree that we should keep it
simple and to give at least a fair chance for international users to
understand a POI without local knowledge.

> (and potentially convincing the makers of tagging presets to cater for it).
>

At some point in time, a well intentioned translator caused great
confusion by mixing shop=confectionery and shop=pastry, but we fixed
it promptly. I agree that after we agreed on a schema that could work
across borders, it would be a great benefit to the mapping community
to make presets for it.

> (I have seen there are quite some hits in the wiki already for this word).
>

Yes, as mentioned, we're having this FAQ all the time, and hence at
least we started to document the dirty workarounds that we'd been
using up to now to be consistent locally, but this consistency breaks
down around the world (and with the sit-in kind of cukrászda).

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Juni 2020 um 14:05 Uhr schrieb bkil :

> If we already add a type, why can't we make it right? Why not use such
> a taxonomy that makes sense, enabling interpretation for both locals
> and internationally?




I think this is what we all are striving for here, the problem is that it
is not obvious. It is clear we ideally want to be able to exactly
understand from the tags what kind of object it is, but if have too many
different types on the top level, it will make it difficult to use the data
(you must know all these tags and look for them in order to show them to
your users), while if we have too few top level tags, people must also look
for all the subtags in order not to get a wrong impression. We are looking
for a "middle way", and what makes sense in this regard is seen differently
by different people. That's why we are discussing here.



> I'm still not sure how we should tag a cukrászda around the world and
> I haven't made a concrete suggestion for this yet, but I'm positive
> that users are looking for this and deserve the right to be able to
> search for it _somehow_.



it is you who knows the cukrászda best. You must decide (together with your
fellow local mappers who also know the feature), whether it is a subtype of
one of the established tags, or whether it is so different that it must get
a new tag. People from England or Italy can not help significantly you to
make this decision, because we do not know the feature well. We can only
help you by asking questions and trying to explain what the implications
and meaning of the established tags are (and only if we can concur on a
common meaning ;-) which is not a given, as shown by this discussion). You
will also almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I
have read a lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in
this particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving
interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting
voices.



> From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
> workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
> well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
> because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
> also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
> mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then?



by documenting it in the wiki, also in your language (and potentially
convincing the makers of tagging presets to cater for it). (I have seen
there are quite some hits in the wiki already for this word).

Cheers
Martin
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