Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
Essentially though, they mean the same thing: man_made=bridge is for areas bridge=yes is for ways Both refer to to say there is a bridge and each assumes each others meaning - I wouldn't think we would use natural=bridge. Perhaps there could be a proposal to change man_made=bridge to bridge=yes

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
20 paź 2020, 00:52 od rob...@rtbk.com.au: > Perhaps the use of man_made could be dropped all together as it is somewhat > superfluous. > > Ie. man_made=bridge is the same as bridge=yes > Are you aware that we have bridge=yes and man_made=bridge used with a  different meaning? > > Perhaps all

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 10/19/20 09:39, Robert Delmenico wrote: > There are a few ways to go from here: > 1: change man_made to human_made > 2: change man_made to artificial > 3: change man_made to some other term > 4: leave man_made as is What's so wrong with #4 here? What exact problem are we solving by changing 4

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 10/19/20 15:01, Justin Tracey wrote: > I don't feel particularly strongly about this change either way, but > to say it has "zero actual benefit" seems like a pretty obvious > exaggeration. How about naming the benefits this has, from your point of view, then? It's a lot of work to change

Re: [Tagging] How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

2020-10-19 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I agree that highway=bus_guideway deserved it's own tag, since it is halfway to a rubber-tyred light metro, and quite similar to the "people mover" systems often found at airports, which often use concrete guidways and rubber-tired vehicles. But since other busways serve the same public transit

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 at 09:12, Robert Delmenico wrote: > https://www.lexico.com/definition/natural > Using your own source to disprove your arguments! https://www.lexico.com/definition/man-made "Made or caused by human beings (as opposed to occurring or being made naturally)" So nothing to

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 20. Oct 2020, at 00:55, Robert Delmenico wrote: > > Perhaps the use of man_made could be dropped all together as it is somewhat > superfluous. > > Ie. man_made=bridge is the same as bridge=yes clearly not, we are already using both. man_made=bridge is a feature, and

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
| Of course, as mentioned, what do we do with beaver dams & wasp (& any other type of) nests, animal burrows & so on? Would they be considered natural? a definition is "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind." https://www.lexico.com/definition/natural On Tue, 20

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
I like that! On Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 9:59 am Walker Bradley, wrote: > I certainly support Rob’s view on *=yes > > Or if we want something similar to man_made=*, we have natural= we could > also have unnatural= > > On Oct 19, 2020, at 22:55, Robert Delmenico wrote: > >  > Perhaps the use of

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 20:14, nathan case wrote: > > Indeed, the Handbook of Nonsexist Writing suggests: "artificial, handmade, > hand-built, synthetic, manufactured, fabricated, machine-made, and > constructed" as options instead of man-made. Out of those options, I personally think either

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Jo
Bridge=yes is used as a complementary tag on highway and railway objects. I was thinking of construction=bridge, but that already has another meaning in OSM context. I really don't like artificial as a tag. Maybe constructed_by_people... Can't say that I like that either. Polyglot On Tue, Oct

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Walker Bradley
I certainly support Rob’s view on *=yes Or if we want something similar to man_made=*, we have natural= we could also have unnatural= > On Oct 19, 2020, at 22:55, Robert Delmenico wrote: > >  > Perhaps the use of man_made could be dropped all together as it is somewhat > superfluous. > >

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
Perhaps the use of man_made could be dropped all together as it is somewhat superfluous. Ie. man_made=bridge is the same as bridge=yes Perhaps all of the existing man_made=[value] tags should be changed to [value]=yes Rob On Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 9:46 am Robert Delmenico, wrote: > Please read

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
Please read this article: https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/pep/index-fra.html?lang=fra=usage_7_gender_neutral_writing_questions_usage 'Not really, and "man_made" does not mean that it was made by males.' Yes it does. Why would society also use women-made? 'It seems to

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Niels Elgaard Larsen
Robert Delmenico: I originally put the call out really to gauge if there was much interest in changing the term man_made because of its use of 'man', and was interested in hearing the thoughts from other mappers as really this proposal isn't just mine. If there was no interest I would just

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Mo., 19. Okt. 2020 um 22:17 Uhr schrieb Emvee via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org>: > On 19/10/2020 11:51, Volker Schmidt wrote: > > Martin, please do not even think about deprecating a tagging that is > > heavily used.like highway=crossing with bicycke=no|yes|dismount > > I do not call

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
19 paź 2020, 22:43 od tagging@openstreetmap.org: > > This recent wiki change by Emvee is in my view not helpful, or even misleading, as it does discourage a wide-spread tagging practice

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Emvee via Tagging
This recent wiki change by Emvee is in my view not helpful, or even misleading, as it does discourage a wide-spread tagging practice (if we like this or not is a different question, but it's established tagging, and the wiki is supposed to

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Emvee via Tagging
On 19/10/2020 11:51, Volker Schmidt wrote: Martin, please do not even think about deprecating a tagging that is heavily used.like highway=crossing with bicycke=no|yes|dismount I do not call highway=crossing with bicycle=no|dismount heavily used. On some locations the density is higher but on

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Justin Tracey
On 2020-10-19 4:13 a.m., Shawn K. Quinn wrote: > On 10/14/20 19:54, Robert Delmenico wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm proposing that we change the man_made tag to human_made. >> >> I feel it is a discussion that we need to have as there seems to be >> little discussion to date. > [...] > I will vote

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Emvee via Tagging
On 18/10/2020 10:30, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Oct 18, 2020, 10:27 by tagging@openstreetmap.org: On 18/10/2020 07:46, Volker Schmidt wrote: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 09:46, Martin Koppenhoefer mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote: Generally, I would propose to only tag

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Peter Elderson
Or, let's acknowledge that many distinctions are pointless because an awful lot of primary keys just mean "thing", so the key does not really matter, only the value counts. Who cares what the * in *=bus_stop says, it's a bus stop. Peter Elderson >> Op 19 okt. 2020 om 19:43 heeft Martin

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Mo., 19. Okt. 2020 um 15:04 Uhr schrieb Dave F via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org>: > I mean, *everything* is either man made or natural. > if we push this forward, humans are part of the natural world as well. Lets get rid of these dichotomies, and strive for a unified vision of the

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Mo., 19. Okt. 2020 um 00:44 Uhr schrieb Robert Delmenico < rob...@rtbk.com.au>: > Some great points here. Good to hear the points of views of all of you. > Look forward to hearing more feedback. > > Kind regards, > > Rob > I am delighted to read you like the idea of switching to German

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Phake Nick
I feel like it is a cherry-picked list of comment. 在 2020年10月19日週一 22:42,Robert Delmenico 寫道: > > I originally put the call out really to gauge if there was much interest > in changing the term man_made because of its use of 'man', and was > interested in hearing the thoughts from other mappers

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
Also Paul, I could be confrontational, but what's the point? I wanted feedback on the proposal and wanted to hear what others had to say. I wanted to take on the ideas to create a great proposal and highlight both the pros and cons so that those who are voting are informed on the matter, rather

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
I originally put the call out really to gauge if there was much interest in changing the term man_made because of its use of 'man', and was interested in hearing the thoughts from other mappers as really this proposal isn't just mine. If there was no interest I would just abandon it and move on -

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 14:04, Dave F via Tagging wrote: I mean, *everything* is either man made or natural. > Unless you want to argue that humans are supernatural or unnatural, humans are natural. Therefore anything humans make is natural, just as beaver dams and wasps' nests are natural. If

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Phake Nick
Breaking change come with a cost. Whether it is worth is a question should be asked. 在 2020年10月19日週一 21:04,Dave F via Tagging 寫道: > Irrelevant of any implied meaning, 'man_made' always appeared to be a > clunky, catch-all tag. OSM was being a bit lazy. > I mean, *everything* is either man made

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Dave F via Tagging
That in a project to create an up to date map, there are people involved who get upset over things changing is, indeed, weird. DaveF On 19/10/2020 13:58, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote: Yes, latest update date can be a hint but treating it is as an argument to avoid making an edit is

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Dave F via Tagging
Irrelevant of any implied meaning, 'man_made' always appeared to be a clunky, catch-all tag. OSM was being a bit lazy. I mean, *everything* is either man made or natural.  We really should come up with more specific, accurate key tags. DaveF On 19/10/2020 12:45, Jo wrote: It would be best to

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
Yes, latest update date can be a hint but treating it is as an argument to avoid making an edit is really weird to me. 19 paź 2020, 14:51 od tagging@openstreetmap.org: > I'm in no way supporting the proposal, but this argument of 'it'llmake > the entities look fully up to date" is illogical.

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Dave F via Tagging
I'm in no way supporting the proposal, but this argument of 'it'll make the entities look fully up to date" is illogical. If taken to it's conclusion, nothing will ever be update again. It's false to think that just because an entity was amended yesterday, it means it's up to date: If a typo

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Peter Elderson
Another illusion shattered... where is this world going to? Best, Peter Elderson > Op 19 okt. 2020 om 13:48 heeft Jo het volgende > geschreven: > >  > It would be best to first consider the consequences of such a change. Weigh > the benefits against what we lose in time (humanhours?) and

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Jo
It would be best to first consider the consequences of such a change. Weigh the benefits against what we lose in time (humanhours?) and resources/energy. And then there is still the point that many objects will get new timestamps for a change that's not really a change. Anyway, artificial sounds

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Phake Nick
No, it would still require a mass edit and breaking changes that will come with disadvantages already listed by other participant of this discussion 在 2020年10月19日週一 18:42,Robert Delmenico 寫道: > Nice investigating Nathan, > > I would be open to using artificial instead of human_made. > > > Would

Re: [Tagging] How are busways mapped, which are not guideways?

2020-10-19 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
18 paź 2020, 20:22 od joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com: > While the current tagging is ok, it seems inconsistent that > highway=bus_guideway gets its own tag, while other busways which are similar > in function are tagged as highway=service.  > Given that rail-like bus guideway is drastically

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
19 paź 2020, 10:27 od dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 18. Oct 2020, at 10:39, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: >> >> Still, highway=crossing bicycle=no is an acceptable tagging (like you can >> map cemeteries or parks >> or churches as nodes in the first pass, especially when

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Robert Delmenico
Nice investigating Nathan, I would be open to using artificial instead of human_made. Would it be best to change the proposal or start a second proposal? Change man_made= to artificial= Rob On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 21:14, nathan case wrote: > Pros and cons aside, “human-made” is not a term

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread nathan case
Pros and cons aside, “human-made” is not a term that is in current widespread usage. As a native English GB speaker, I find it clunky and somewhat distracting. A better gender neutral term might be “artificial”, which is already a synonym for “man-made” and is already widely used. Indeed,

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Volker Schmidt
Martin, please do not even think about deprecating a tagging that is heavily used.like highway=crossing with bicycke=no|yes|dismount I am already ignoring the frequent JOSM Warning about the deprecated crossing=island which JOSM shows me everytime I download a stretch of road that contains this

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Niels Elgaard Larsen
Jo: Are they really people who see the tag man_made and go: Oh, women didn't contribute to this! The tag says so... The same people that think that man_made=manhole* implies access:women=no But i guess that would become human_made=humanhole We will also have to make it healthcare=midhuman

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Jo
Are they really people who see the tag man_made and go: Oh, women didn't contribute to this! The tag says so... Isn't it obvious that man in this case stands for its original meaning: Mensch, ser humano, etc? Changing it in the database is trivially easy. Letting everyone who uses OSM data know

Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?

2020-10-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Oct 2020, at 10:39, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > Still, highway=crossing bicycle=no is an acceptable tagging (like you can map > cemeteries or parks > or churches as nodes in the first pass, especially when there is no good > aerial imagery available) my

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 10/18/20 16:04, Oliver Simmons wrote: > Doing this would make over 3M objects have their date updated to the > present, when the last meaningful change may have been over 5 years ago. > It creates the illusion of data being up-to-date when all that was > changed was a tag key. +1 In addition

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 10/14/20 19:54, Robert Delmenico wrote: > Hi, > > I'm proposing that we change the man_made tag to human_made. > > I feel it is a discussion that we need to have as there seems to be > little discussion to date. [...] I will vote against this proposal and any like it, because it involves a

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread François Lacombe
Hi I second the comments of Topographe below. Continuous improvement is a major challenge. Le dim. 18 oct. 2020 à 23:09, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > And once we have done it, we could do it again and again, for all kinds of > reasons. > Not all kinds of reasons: once the change has been

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

2020-10-19 Thread Topographe Fou
Putting appart this 'man' vs 'human' debate...This reminds me a thinking I regularly have in minds: OSM shall have a way to tell all (registered) data users that "starting from /mm/dd following major change in the database will be applied following vote xxx from OSM community. Please see