Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 35 man-made

[St Niklaas]

Hi Martin & members,

Besides the frequently named bridge, there are several oil / petroleum wells in 
the same category man-made.
I reccon no one has ever counted them, you could Fill the Albert Hall with them.
In my humble opinion its a not very well thought idea and the describtion of 
the old English man made is undoubtely sex less.

Greetz.


Van: tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org 
Verzonden: donderdag 15 oktober 2020 11:41
Aan: tagging@openstreetmap.org 
Onderwerp: Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 35

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: What does bicycle=no on a node means? (Martin Koppenhoefer)
   2. Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made
  (Martin Koppenhoefer)
   3. Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made
  (Robert Delmenico)
   4. Re: railway=station areas (Martin Koppenhoefer)
   5. Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access (nathan case)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 09:42:59 +0200
From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] What does bicycle=no on a node means?
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"



sent from a phone

> On 13. Oct 2020, at 23:42, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> I changed the crossing to the way we do it in many parts of Europe, i.e. a 
> crossing node and a crossing way.


I thought the standard was highway=crossing on the nodes where they cross the 
road and highway=footway with footway=crossing on the way segment between the 
kerbs (if sidewalks are mapped) or between the crossing nodes (if several 
carriageways are present).

The crossing=* tags in this scheme go on the nodes, and after some wiki 
fiddling a long time ago, possibly also on the ways.

The idea to use crossing=* as a on ways stems from user ULamm 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Acrossing=revision=1077856=1068935

And became successively popular:
https://taghistory.raifer.tech/#way/highway/crossing/crossing/


The reason for the edit is “see discussion”, but frankly, looking at the 
discussion, it is all but convincing that this edit was justified: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:crossing=1093129#Node_or_line

Generally, I would propose to only tag crossing =* on the crossing node, but 
refrain from access like tags on this node (no bicycle or foot tags). The 
access should be derived from the crossing ways.
This still fails to add crossing specifics for situations where the crossing 
ways are not mapped, so alternatively we could state that we only add positive 
access tags to crossings. Imagine I would add hgv=no or motorcycle=no tags to 
pedestrian crossings, IMHO this would be as correct as adding bicycle=no, 
because neither of them can cross at the pedestrian crossing, but overall it 
could be seen as very bad tagging because of the ambiguity (for the road users).

Cheers Martin
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:36:13 +0200
From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Proposal to change key:man_made to
key:human_made
Message-ID: <43016bbc-f429-447c-afd2-8533ecca7...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8



sent from a phone

> On 15. Oct 2020, at 02:57, Robert Delmenico  wrote:
>
> I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is commonly 
> accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been adapted that 
> way due to past practices of gender bias.


I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man, as 
in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not suitable for 
gender neutral language, everything refers back to men. I propose to use German 
as the language for tags.
It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those 
millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that many 
tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t be as much 
change as it may sound initially.

Cheers Martin




--

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:46:14 +1100
From: Robert Delmenico 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related 

Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period

[Jan Michel]

On 20.10.20 22:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I am not usually mapping this detail of parking fees, but from my 
understanding the above suggested tags would work and could be seen as 
covered by current state of tagging, no need for a proposal, just use it.

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/fee%3Aconditional#values



A)
fee=yes
fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h


I fully agree with this tagging scheme, although it should be 'stay' 
instead of 'maxstay'. We're refering to the actual length of the stay 
here, not to a limit. It's the same as with e.g.

maxspeed:conditional = 50 @ weight > 3.5
Here we use 'weight' here, not 'maxweight'.


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Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 20/10/2020 16.34, Branko Kokanovic wrote:

There are lot of parking lots on amenities (shopping malls...), where
parking is free for customers, but only if you park for less than
some specified time amount (let's say 2-3h), imposed by that amenity.
After that period, you have to pay[1]. It is widespread where I live,
but I would suspect this is not limited to my country only.
FWIW, I believe this is common at many US airports. The first hour 
(sometimes only 15 minutes) is free, e.g. if you are just dropping 
someone off or picking someone up.



To cover how this works, in case you didn't had joy of experience to
use this - you usually press machine to get ticket upon entrance (or
human hand it to you) and ramp opens to enter. When you exit, you
present ticket to machine/human and lift gate/ramp opens if you
stayed for less than specified amount of time. It will not open if
time limit (of how long you stayed parked) is reached and in that
case, you have to go back and pay first to some specific place.


Basically the same where I've seen, except the payment kiosk is right 
next to the gate. Pull up to the gate; if you don't owe money, it opens; 
if you do, pay at the gate and then it opens.


...although I think I've seen the sort you describe as well. "Pay at the 
gate" seems typical for airports in my (admittedly limited) experience; 
the others have been, yeah, city parking garages.


--
Matthew

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Proposal of electricity=* and electricity:origin

[Lukas Richert]

There were quite a few comments the first time around, so I just wanted 
to call attention to the electricity proposal (see links below) once 
more. I fear it got lost in the hullabaloo about the man_made tag.


Also, perhaps relevant: both the power_supply 
 and socket 
 keys describe the same 
feature. power_supply so far has occasionally been used in the manner 
that electricity proposes to be. Unfortunately, the proposal for 
power_supply is relatively inconsistent. I think the socket:* tag is 
better thought out and also currently more used. I would be in favor of 
deprecating power_supply and separating the two meanings it currently 
has into electricity=* and socket:*=#.


Regards, Luke


Hello all,

after the comments on the confusing nature of the word 'source' in my 
original proposal of 'electricity:source', I have now changed the 
name to 'electricity:origin' as suggested on the discussion page. 
Furthermore, I would like to revive and extend the proposal of the 
key 'electricity' as this previously conflicted with parts of the 
electricity:source proposal and was not consistent.


Both proposal pages:

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/electricity

[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/electricity:origin


The idea now is to allow for the tagging of buildings or amenities 
that have electricity. The rationale is described in more detail at 
[1]. Tags such as access, fee, schedule and origin can then narrow 
down the availability to the public and the question of financial or 
direct origin of the electricity.


This is distinct from the drafted tag power_supply as it is used to 
describe the type of sockets used at a specific outlet. The values 
for that tag are still currently under discussion.


I would also not tag this as a subset of power=* as this maps the 
facilities and features that relate to the generation and 
distribution of electrical power and should not be used to map the 
consumers of electricity.


I am eager to hear the feedback to the revised proposals!

Best regards,

Lukas




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