Re: [Tagging] Grape & vineyard. Was: Key crop values containing tree or field

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks everybody!

First time that I've ever heard "vineyard" refer to anything other than
wine making, so, as they say, you learn something every day!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Key crop values containing tree or field

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I'd agree with you there Warin, the crop is what is being harvested, not
the trees themselves.

Another one I noticed on that page is

*crop*=grape  Vineyards,
probably better to use landuse
=vineyard
 instead.
The person who made that entry possible isn't aware that grapes can also be
grown to eat, not just for making wine?

Thanks

Graeme

> One statement is " prefer trees
> =coffee_plants
> "
> .. that really goes against what the crop actually is. If anything the crop
> is coffee_beans!
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Services provided by a travel agency

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I won't disagree with you about shop=tourism as no, I've never heard of a
tourism shop either (& we live in a tourist-oriented area)!

Maybe it's another term that doesn't translate internationally, but here in
Australia at least, "travel agencies" don't handle day-to-day tourist
matters like boat rides, walking tours etc either. Travel agencies are
where you sit down with a travel agent a few months prior to leaving on
your trip, to plan your itinerary, work out which flights you need to catch
& book them, book your cabin on a cruise ship etc.

We do have tourism information centres, where they hold stocks of brochures
etc telling tourists what attractions there are in the area, what the
opening hours of the local museum are & so on, but, once again, they don't
usually book ferry rides, tours & so on - that's left up to the tourist to
do either online or by phone?

I don't know what you would call the type of "shop" that Volker originally
described, but maybe tourism=information woud cover it?

Thanks

Graeme


On 30 June 2017 at 01:09, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 28. Jun 2017, at 23:46, Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> There is a tag for bicycle rental: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:
> amenity%3Dbicycle_rental.
>
>
>
> +1, although this will probably not lead to a compatibile tagging scheme,
> because I'd expect many of the things in the amenity key .
>
>
>
>
> Maybe just shop=tourism together with that?
>
>
>
> don't like this tag, IMHO too generic, not well distinguishable from
> travel agencies, no clear meaning (ever heard someone saying: I'm going to
> the tourist shop? What would you think if you heard this? I would likely
> ask 'where?'). It isn't really a category (of what they sell) rather than a
> category for whom it is (i.e. it can be used to disqualify a shop as
> "mostly for tourists " (locals who know the situation won't go there), but
> not to qualify the kind of things they offer).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Services provided by a travel agency

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

There is a tag for bicycle rental:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbicycle_rental.

Maybe just shop=tourism together with that?

Thanks

Graeme


On 28 June 2017 at 23:03, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I think you are right on the man tag.
> :-)
> This leaves me still with the tagging of the services offered.
> :-(
>
>
>
>
> On 28 June 2017 at 14:32, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 28 June 2017 13:07:49 BST, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> >I am trying to figure out how to tag the services proved by a (small)
>> >travel agency.
>> >
>> >Example:
>> >https://www.mapillary.com/app/index/voschix?feedItem=user-
>> >qwbAz1RxsvEw5qGBCZsyAQ-activity-user-qwbAz1RxsvEw5qGBCZsyAQ-
>> >publishing_done-image%3A1498267281166=ihU7yrLTHbgWAVyF
>> TlIpvg=45.
>> >26902948529647=12.30011757853265=17=photo=false
>> >
>> >This is a small agency hat offers
>> >
>> >   - rental bikes
>> >   - accommodation on the Island (hotels and b)
>> >   - boat excursions
>> >   - walking/bicycle excursions with guide
>> >   - general assistance to walk-n customers like ferry time tables
>> >
>> >I don't think they sell products of the big tour operators
>> >
>> I'm not sure I would call this a travel agent, maybe shop=tourism.
>>
>> Locally we have both, travel agents who sell holidays to local people and
>> tourism places which sell services, such as boat trips to visiting tourists.
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] marine traffic control towers

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I don't know if marine traffic control stations actually have a "proper"
name, like airport control towers?

Doesn't really seem to be anything that fits well?

Best option would appear to come under man_made, possibly either

:monitoring station
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aman_made%3Dmonitoring_station,
which also makes reference to monitoring traffic
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:monitoring:traffic, although they
refer to counting, rather than controlling

:surveillance
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aman_made%3Dsurveillance

:tower https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aman_made%3Dtower, which
then also allows you to specify type_, possible either communication,
observation or both?

Had a look at the Dover Coastguard base, which monitors (but not sure if
they also control?) marine traffic in the Straights of Dover
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.13303/1.34274=T, & that is
only shown as amenity_coastguard

Anybody know of any other major marine traffic control stations that could
give any clues?


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposals - RFC for multiple features - Education Reform - Magnetic Levitation Trains

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Looks good Erkin

Question, thanks.

We have Security Training "schools" (companies to train private security
guards) & also Language Schools (usually to teach English to non-English
speakers).

Would these come under =speciality, or possibly =vocational?

Would it be possibly be an idea to also then include an additional tag:
speciality / vocational=* (eg Security; English language etc)?

Thanks

Graeme


On 17 September 2017 at 15:54, Erkin Alp Güney 
wrote:

> Two RFCs by me are ready. One of them are education reform(actually
> delayed a bit). This brings education key instead of amenity=school.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Access by permit

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 September 2017 at 03:56, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> What I wanted was much more minimalistic: "permission is needed to enter
> here, but permission is ordinarily granted."
>

Kevin

Would something simple like access=yes once approved (decription - you must
apply for permit to access this area but permits are usually approved. Once
approved, you have open access) work?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=appliance vs. shop=electronics

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 20 September 2017 at 00:13, Simon Poole  wrote:

> And another one from the ragged edge of tagging.
>
> iD has a preset for shop=appliance
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Appliance_Store , I
> assume for shops that sell larger electrical goods washing machines,
> dryers, fridges and so on (in German so called  "weisse Ware"). It seems
> that historically this wasn't popular and it was suggested to use
> shop=electronics
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Delectronics . The later
> would seem to work reasonably well for the large consumer electronics
> markets that sell essentially everything from DVDs, over drones, TVs,
> computers and washing machines. But not for smaller shops that are
> specialized on just such larger appliances.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Simon
>

In Australia, we also have White Goods, which, as you say, are primarily
big things (but not necessarily coloured white! :-)): fridges / freezers,
washing machines, stoves / ovens etc, but they usually also sell computers,
DVDs, music CDs, phones & so on. I think "Appliance Store" is correct for
them.

We also have (to name one) Jaycar Electronics https://www.jaycar.com.au/,
which sells plugs, switches & all manner of electronic componentry, same as
Tandy & Radio Shack do (did?) in the US. I would think these would be
shop=electronics, although there is also a listing for shop=radiotechnics?
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dradiotechnics


>
> PS: no, I don't think it is acceptable to have to enumerate and query
> every possible kind of good a shop can sell to find out what its main
> kind of business is.
>

Agree with you entirely!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

How about =proposed?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:proposed

"For roads to be removed, use *proposed:highway*=no. This is understood by
(at least) ITO's Transport Construction 
 map."

"

   - a further tag could be added to illustrate the expected beginning of
   construction and planned opening date.

e.g. construction_start_expected

=-MM-DD construction_end_expected

=-MM-DD"

I don't know what that would do to routing - I'd guess that you could still
force your GPS to go that way, but it wouldn't automatically pick it?

Thanks

Graeme

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposals - RFC for multiple features - Education Reform - Magnetic Levitation Trains

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks for clarification re "types" of training schools.

Carrying on along the driving side of things but diverging a bit - how
about flying & boating training schools? It was  mentioned that for driver
training, the school only teaches the student how to drive, then they must
go to the Transport Dept office for their practical & theory tests. For
flying & boating (at least in Australia), the schools also do all the
testing (to Govt standards) & decide whether the student has passed.

Same sort of thing for Scuba diving - you have dedicated Scuba diving
schools to train & qualify new divers - education or sport?


Thanks

Graeme


On 17 September 2017 at 19:11, Erkin Alp Güney 
wrote:

>
> I do not know of any jurisdiction where a driving school is entitled to
> license a driver by itself. These examinations are government regulated
> otherwise driving schools would just skip the practical portion of
> driver education and try to license an incompetent driver just for more
> profit.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Access by permit

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 September 2017 at 14:55, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to tag some stocked fishing ponds that reside on a military
>> reservation in Alaska, Fort Greely. The ponds are stocked by the
>> Alaska Department of Fish & Game but require a special permit for access.
>> This is from the Department of Fish & Game website:
>>
>> These lakes are on military land. A permit is required to legally access
>> these lakes. For Army land a Recreational Access Permit (RAP) is required.
>>
>> access=permissive isn't quite right nor is access=private.
>>
>
>
>
> For me, and apparently for you, there's a big difference between 'this
> land is private', and 'access to this land requires certain formalities to
> be complied with, but permission is ordinarily granted.' But i appear to be
> imagining that the difference is important, since nobody else on the planet
> sees it.
>

You can count me in there as well, 'cause I've got a similar'ish sort of
question, thanks gents :-)

Just off the Queensland coast, there are a number of large, sand islands,
which are reached by ferry (in one case, by bridge) & are very popular
tourist destinations. eg Fraser Island:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/-25.322/152.732

These islands are controlled by Qld National Parks & anybody is allowed to
visit them, but to drive on the island, either on the beach or inland
tracks, you must have a vehicle permit, which can be simply bought either
online, or from various retailers - newsagents, service stations etc. The
main beaches on each of these islands are also the main roads to travel
around the island, & are, in fact, designated public roads, where normal
speed limits, licensing requirements, alcohol limits etc all apply, & are
enforced by Police.

So how should they be marked?

They're open to the general public until National Parks says no, so that's
permissive?

But you need a permit, so does that make them private?

Maybe they should be marked as toll=yes, although there's no toll-booth
where you can pay?

& then how do you mark the entire Island, or just the main beach, as
needing a permit? Marked tracks can be tagged easily enough, but the beach
is just a beach!

Looking forward to working something out! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] war_memorial

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts re arboretums

Why I brought this up - had a look at the historic=monument tag yesterday
morning, which lead me to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/CheckTheMonuments &
http://www.historic.place/themes/monuments/map.html.

That showed 4 monuments in my general area, 2 of which should apparently be
memorials, 1 I'm not sure about & this one:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-28.00759/153.38376.

The "Regional Arboretum" is shown as a monument &, by the conversations
here, almost certainly shouldn't be (maybe it should be a Memorial? - will
have to get up there & check it out on the ground); while the "ADF Grove"
is, almost certainly correctly, a Memorial.

Now, if the Regional Arboretum isn't actually marked as being a memorial to
anybody / thing, & therefore not a memorial, how should it then appear in
OSM? The Botanic Gardens as a whole are shown as landuse=recreation_ground;
leisure=park. From a Google satellite shot
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0070891,153.3834806,174m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en,
the Regional Arboretum is only an open group of trees, so how should it be
mapped?

It's definitely not intended for forestry / logging purposes, so it's not
landuse=forest

It's hardly a forest, so not natural=wood

Doesn't produce anything so not landuse=orchard

Leisure=garden? Garden brings to mind flowers & bushes, not trees, but I
guess it may still apply?


On 5 October 2017 at 09:21, Neil Matthews  wrote:

> Might be a bit too finegrained for some memorial sites, e.g.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Memorial_Arboretum
>
> Neil
>

I did have a look at the NMA: http://www.thenma.org.uk, & it's shown
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.72783/-1.73066 as leisure=park,
with lot's of gardens & memorials spread throughout it, so maybe
leisure=garden is correct?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] cake decorating school

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Dave

This sort of thing was discussed a few weeks ago with the suggestion of an
Education= tag to supplement the existing amenity=school listing:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-September/033455.html

One of the concepts was for "special" training places to be listed as
education=speciality; speciality="cake-decorating", which would be ideal
for you!

In the meantime,=school wouldn't really be approriate, so
craft=cake-decorating would probably be your best option, as OSM doesn't
appear to have any facility for "cooking" of any sort?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] war_memorial

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Question on memorials v monuments thanks.

How about a memorial arboretum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arboretum), a
commemorative planted grove of trees that you can walk through & sit under?

Does that count as a monument, or is it a memorial?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] airstrip vs runway

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 October 2017 at 14:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ---
> Slightly off topic - youtube video
> Landing at Ononge Papua New Guinea. Note the approach over the village,
> clearly showing;
> why there are no 'residential' roads and why there are so many showing up
> in the tool for 'missmapped villages'.
> why they are not aerodromes
> and why you want a good pilot in Papua New Guinea!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DItuay4Zaws
>
>
Yep, to my mind, something like that definitely counts as an airstrip, not
a runway, aerodrome or anything else remotely resembling or suggesting real
aeronautical construction! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] phone validity - phone "preset"

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 6 September 2017 at 02:51, marc marc  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> on the french-speaking mailing, a contributor noticed a high rate
> of incorrect value for the tag "phone". the most common error is using
> the national format number instead of the international format.
>

I'll admit to being guilty here, in that I enter numbers in my part of
Australia as 07, working on the basis that most people using this
info to ring the establishment will be making local, or at most,
inside-Australia calls. I know, sorry, I should be thinking
internationally! :-)


> But the best would be to avoid the mistake when a user fill
> in the data in iD, josm or whatever.
>
> Is anyone aware of a kind of "preset" that can be used for phone ?
>

Would the easiest way be to format the telephone number box so that it has
a non-erasable + as the beginning symbol?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

> > Apparently the Red Cross have released an app (using Google  Maps) that
> > tracks the emergency shelters and also indicates which ones can't accept
> > new evacuees because they are full.
>
> > PS , I haven't seem the Red Cross app but the reviews are not good, with
> > one review describing it as "half baked", which, if true, would make it,
> in
> > my opinion, worse than useless.
>

How does "somebody" from OSM (Foundation?) approach International Red Cross
& suggest / offer / recommend that they use OSM as the basis for their app?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Geological Faults

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

& couldn't this only be done in OSM if the fault (or evidence of it) is
actually visible on the Earth's surface?

I mean, can we actually map a fault that's several / 0's / 00's klm under
the ground?

As David said though, really just a guess as I've also never been involved
in that sort of thing.

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Public wifi

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi

Noticed in the discussion of the devices tag, mention of devices attached
to telephone booths, which got me thinking.

Here in Australia, Telstra provides public wifi access via it's Telstra Air
network (https://www.telstra.com.au/telstra-air), which is also linked to
the international Fon network (https://network.fon.com/).

A lot / most of Telstra's wifi spots are mounted on public telephone boxes
(the pink bit's shown on the above link :-)) - I don't know about Fon?

So, do we have a tag for public wifi / internet spots?

I can't see anything for one, but I guess it would come under amenity=*,
same as amenity=telephone for public phones?

If we don't, should we?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging two former church locations, with the same name but unrelated to each other

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

So all 3 churches are actually physically in existence?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging two former church locations, with the same name but unrelated to each other

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

& I should have added:

& operating?

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] Public wifi

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks for that Marc & Warin

I didn't notice that tag, buried down under "Properties" :-(

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi

Just consulted with an authority in these matters - my wife! :-)

Her take:

shop=clothes is chain stores (ie same shop in multiple shopping centres /
towns) aimed at lower-middle end of the market

shop=fashion is middle - higher end, but still chain stores

shop=boutique is "one-off" shops eg selling hand-made rather than
mass-produced clothes; niche / speciality items etc

Hope that helps?


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Severin

Thank you for that very detailed explanation! :-)

Looks like yet another time when the same word means different things in
different languages

Thanks

Graeme

On 30 August 2017 at 03:27, Severin Menard  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> IMHO, I would drop shop=boutique because it is one of the most confusing
> tag, especially in French-speaking contexts.
>
> Basically in French from France, boutique is a generic word meaning shop.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Severin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Daniel

Thanks to you as well - what you've said backs Severin's comments up nicely


> In Poland we use "butik" as a clothes fashion shop, however I would also
> drop shop=boutique and shop=fashion.
>



>
> And how should a typical tagger know what market segment it really is?
>

Especially if it's a man tagging women's clothing stores! :-)

>From these comments, I would agree with dropping both =boutique & =fashion,
leaving only shop=clothes, with type=men's / women's / children's etc

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 30 August 2017 at 13:20, Marc Gemis  wrote:

>  A cafe is a place where they sell
> beer, not ?
>

 Not in Australia, no!


> Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] airstrip vs runway

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I know there are some airstrips in SEQ that are privately owned & no-one is
allowed to land without permission - should they be mapped as possible
emergency strips?

There are also charter planes that operate of the beach at Fraser Island -
should that stretch of beach also be shown as a 'strip?

Thanks

Graeme

On 9 October 2017 at 14:58, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On 9/10/17 14:40, Bill Ricker wrote:
>
>> Runways are permanent and maintained, often even managed.
>> Former runways aren't runways.
>> Airstrips are more changeable than seasonal watercourses.
>>
>
> So I guess what you are saying here is that airstrips are ephemeral and as
> such cannot be verified? That would suggest that they shouldn't be mapped.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Not mapping personal preferences and details

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

But wouldn't you expect (hope? :-)) that the staff at a specialist shop, be
it motorcycles, computers, 2-way radios or anything, would be "expert" in
their field?

Thanks

Graeme


On 5 October 2017 at 22:03, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2017-10-05 13:41 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :
>
>> In the wake of the discussion about the methods used to push the
>> "motorcycle_friendly" tag, I found that the tag
>>  "proprietor:motorcyclist=yes/no Whether the proprietor rides himself
>> (and therefore got expertise)"
>> being described [1], and used 12x in the database.
>>
>
>
> actually it is not so important if the "proprietor" rides a motorbike, it
> could be interesting though, if someone (staff) at a shop is an expert
> (while it is interesting, it still is in conflict with privacy concerns and
> verifiabilty, as well as for data maintenance aspects it poses a problem).
>
> I agree this can at most be a "proposal" anyway.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Street_furniture

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

> El 17/10/2017 23:44, "François Lacombe" 
> escribió:
>
> Hi,
>
> Let's not forget street cabinets :)
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
>
> As Warin said, all those things (including cabinets) may not always be
> along streets.
> "street" term may be understood as "outdoor".
>
>
On the subject of street cabinets, what about pits / manholes?

We have a lot of facilities (eg telephone / internet connections, water /
gas meters) especially in residential areas, located in underground pits,
with a concrete / metal lid, marked with what is in it - telephone, water
etc.

Would these also be classified as "street cabinets"?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Additional sub tags for survey mark

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

but the accuracy would be the key thing between a hill top and a  trig
> point as the trig point would be determined with much higher precision.
>

& the trig point is not necessarily on the highest point of the hill

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] Additional sub tags for survey mark

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 21 November 2017 at 12:48, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure, I've only seen two types the brass disk in the footpath,
> gutter, road etc. and the rock or cement pillar with a plate on top,
> sometimes with a black mental circle which can be seen from a distance.
> Your proposed tags provides a way to distinguish these.
>

Sometimes slight variation in that the disk has been set into a concrete
block on a hill etc, but the same for mapping purposes.

Great idea to pursue this concept

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Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Education Reform

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Yes, I agree, good idea

Thanks

Graeme

On 19 November 2017 at 08:31, José G Moya Y.  wrote:

> I will vote +1 because I liked your proposal in September
>
> But please refresh me, what's the difference between testcenter and
> cram-school? I only remember cram-school in your proposal this September.
>
> The proposal says:
>
> education=testcenter -  Specialty schools including exam preparation
>> schools, fine arts schools, crafts schools or language schools but
>> excluding crammers
>> education=cram-school - Cram schools, cram schools may be rendered
>> differently from academic schools
>
>
> But "exam preparation" is what crammers do, don't they?
>
> Also, a note about
> optional religion =*
> In Spain the government pays some religious institutions for giving
> educational services to people for free.
> This leads to strange situations like islamic people bringing their
> daughters to a school ruled by catholic nuns and requiring the girls to
> study a non-religious curriculum.and even allowing girls wear a *hijab*.
> Should we tag these schools as "religion=catholic" or leave it blank?
>
> Regards.
>
>
> 2017-11-18 19:06 GMT+01:00 Erkin Alp Güney :
>
>> This version is considered for voting:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Educat
>> ion_Reform_Alternative
>>
>>
>> 18-11-2017 21:05 tarihinde Erkin Alp Güney yazdı:
>> > I am offering this proposal into voting as no replies arrived since last
>> > month.
>> >
>> > Yours, faithfully
>> > Erkin Alp
>> >
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] passage only on low tide

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 5 November 2017 at 13:46, Max  wrote:

>
> I went with
>
> causeway=yes
> ford=tidal
> tidal=yes
>
> not sure how to say that the passable time frame is about 3 hours (with
> climate change it's getting shorter)..
>

How about Description: "Only passable 1.5 hours each side of low tide -
check daily tide times", possibly with a link to online tide info?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency phones with blinking lights

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

>
> Somebody needs to write some code to toggle the tag:
>
>lit=yes
>
>lit=no
>
> and back again, in sync with the actual object.


Good thinking Andy!

But you forgot to mention that the tag also should be coloured the same as
the light it represents :-)

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Re: [Tagging] "building=college" tag missing from building key page

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 8 December 2017 at 04:56, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

And, although I'm well aware that UK English is the standard for OSM
> tagging, this tag will continue to cause confusion
>

Which is the problem we keep hitting that OSM tries to use one word
worldwide, when it means different things in different countries.

Here in Australia, "college" usually refers to "university", but I know of
a number of "schools", that are named College, that cover Prep (Pre-school
/ Year 0) through to Year 12. In one case, the school is spread over 3
separate parcels of land, for Prep-6, 7-9 & 10-12! How do you tag that?

I'd much prefer something like 'landuse=education education=secondary'.
> We can dispute the precise tagging, but 'college' is just too
> overloaded.
>

I agree

landuse=education

education=preschool (? - should that be included in primary?) / primary /
secondary / tertiary  (& possibly post-grad ?)

Wouldn't that cover all options, fairly neatly?

In the case I mentioned above, it would still be named College, but the
three areas would be =primary, =secondary & =secondary

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] building=maisonette(s)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 3 December 2017 at 04:58, marc marc  wrote:

>
> In french, a "maisonette" is a small detached house or a tiny house or a
> shed.
> Did this word also exist in english
>

 Have heard the term in Australia but not for many years.

These days, it's apparently been replaced by "Granny Flat", which is a
similar concept of a self-contained flat attached to a house, but with it's
own entrance.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] building=stands or building=grandstand?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

To complicate things a bit more :-), we also have leisure_bleachers! (Or at
least we used to - can't see it any more?)

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Re: [Tagging] Multiple offices at the same address - (Multiple values for one key)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 29 October 2017 at 00:25, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Exactly, typical of OSM... If we can't sort this out, we will just
> continue to go round in circles. How does one tell the difference, or which
> type of address is intended? What if we want to put both types of address
> on the same object?
>
>
> On 28 October 2017 15:56:22 CEST, Eugene Alvin Villar 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2017 8:03 AM, "Colin Smale"  wrote:
>>
>> Time for a more philosophical discussion... What is the function of this
>> thing we call "address"? Is it to identify a premises? Is it to describe a
>> premises? Does it refer to the whole premises, or just the bit with the
>> front door or letter box? Or is it "where to deliver post"?
>>
>> This is a long-standing issue in OSM. An address is either (1) a feature
>> that can be mapped on its own right and therefore should only exist once on
>> the map, or (2) an attribute or property of some other feature in OSM and
>> therefore can be added to multiple objects that share the same address.
>> Both types of schemes exist on the map right now.
>>
>
& I must admit to being "guilty" of listing both types of address - filling
in the address details of the type of building / shop / POI & then also
adding an address node, usually on it's driveway.

My reasoning is that my navigation program (OSMAND) doesn't appear to find
street numbers if they're only part of the address, but will if they're a
separate node.

Is it the "right" way of doing things? - who knows & does it matter? What
is the purpose of the map - looking good, laid out neatly & tidily, or
being usable for navigation purposes?

Thanks

Graeme

>
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[Tagging] Follow up re Aviation Obstacle lights

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi

Following up on the previous discussions re Aviation Obstacle lights to see
if there was any final decision?

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-March/035311.html

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Aviation_Obstacle_Light

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] service:vehicle: prefix

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

As part of shop=car_repair

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar_repair

Thanks

Graeme

On 6 May 2018 at 09:51, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> what is the service:vehicle: prefix good for,
> and where is it documented ? (1 223 occurrences)
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service%3Avehicle%
> 3Acar_repair#overview
>
> Cheers.
> Thilo
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: Mapping generic sheds

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 5 May 2018 at 20:17, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> ducks behind sandbags
> :-)
>

No, I a simple pile of sandbags wouldn't be enough to count as either a
shed or a barn! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Seasonal, intermittent, and ephemeral water tags

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Following with interest, thanks.

How do you then tag areas that only flood / run / hold water after (very)
heavy rain?

Are they intermittent?

Thanks

Graeme

On 19 May 2018 at 15:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19/05/18 13:06, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>
> -Original Message-
>>> From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, 19 May 2018 12:33
>>> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>>
>>> Think I have raised this before but not come to any firm conclusion
>>> myself.
>>>
>>> I think that tagging
>>>
>>> seasonal=summer
>>>
>>> intermittent= yes
>>>
>>>
>>> leads to confusion. Is the summer flow intermittent? Or is ther
>>> regular
>>> summer flow with intermittent flow at other times of year?
>>>
>>> It may be better to tag
>>>
>>> seasonal:intermittent=summer
>>>
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> seasonal=summer
>>>
>>> seasonal:intermittent=winter;autumn;spring
>>>
>> I'm not sure if the two tags need to or should be mixed like that.
>>
>> It might be better to just allow time frames (seasons as well as month
>> ranges) in addition to yes/no values for both seasonal and intermittent.
>>
>> So:
>>
>> seasonal=summer
>> intermittent=summer
>>
>> means it's only flowing in the summer (from seasonal), and then only
>> intermittent.
>>
>> or
>>
>> seasonal=summer
>> intermittent=autumn-spring or autumn;winter;spring or march-november
>> (maybe mar-nov ?)
>>
>
> I like that. Month ranges I have not thought of .. seasons can vary from
> year to year so I like that vagueness.
>
>
>> means it's always flowing in the summer, and intermittent the rest of the
>> year.
>>
>> The concept of seasons becomes less meaningful the closer you get to the
>> equator, so allowing month based time frames would make sense. Maybe also
>> the concept of tropical "wet" or "dry" season. Perhaps "monsoon" season as
>> well in areas where that is a prominent weather pattern.
>>
>
> "Monsoon" does not say if it is the wet part or dry part of the monsoon.
> "Wet" and "dry are seasonal values in use and can be used for monsoonal
> areas.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] opening_hours:sign=no - RFC

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I've been wondering about this apparent dilemma & whether I've been doing
the wrong thing?

If I drive / walk past & see Papa Luigi's Pizza Shop, with no other info
visible, I go home, search for Papa Luigi's in this suburb, & get their
website, which gives you their phone number, opening hours, takeaway /
delivery etc. If I'm feeling particularly enthusiastic :-), it will usually
also tell me how many tables, indoor / outdoor & so on.

Isn't this the simplest way of finding missing info?

Or have I been doing the "wrong" thing? :-(


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] highway=service // public road?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I know it's not really what you were after, but you did ask! :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg30-LKCzgY

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Anna+Creek+SA+5723/@-29.3724521,130.8420885,6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x6a83558ecda63c19:0xb9ea36b2cf0f9cb3!8m2!3d-28.7528625!4d136.2042088

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_Station


Thanks

Graeme

On 24 May 2018 at 08:04, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> Has anybody got a good example of
> photo of a long driveway to add to wiki?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

How about "shops", or at least traders, that have nothing to do with food,
or selling a physical item?

We have a number of surf schools (learn how to ride a surfboard) that
operate out of a van & set up in the same spot every day. At days end, they
pack everything up & go home.

eg
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.128146,153.4850378,3a,28.2y,336.12h,88.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdIpLqROTmsfmSEHOWWOB3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

So street_vendor=yes

amenity=surf_school (which I don't believe actually exists? :-))?

Thanks

Graeme

On 26 May 2018 at 06:38, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 25. May 2018, at 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
> >
> > I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
> >
> > "shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its
> opening hours."
>
>
> the term “street” also suggests the shop is outside
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] RFC proposed water property key 'ephemeral '

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Not an OSM / mapping item as such, but on the subject of intermittent /
ephemeral waterways, I thought people may be interested in this?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/programs/sa-country-hour/2018-05-24/lake-eyre-fills-water-tourists-feral-animals/9792352

So how do you map that lot? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC proposed water property key 'ephemeral '

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks

Graeme

On 25 May 2018 at 13:34, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I'd not put a season on any of them .. too variable for me to determine a
> season.
>
>
& that's the killer.

In Queensland, summer is supposed to be wet & winter dry, but something
like 6 years out of the last 12, we've had flood rains over winter?
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Re: [Tagging] Map showing proposed ferry routes & terminals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks everybody for confirming what I thought & offering a possible
alternative - I'll pass that on to the mapper concerned.

Just to clarify though?

If things are tagged as "Proposed", they will then disappear off the map
completely, or will still be visible "greyed out" or something?

Thanks

Graeme

On 16 May 2018 at 22:38, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 16. May 2018, at 09:47, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
> >
> > many official plans never result in anything changing on the ground.
>
>
> somehow official plans always change something, because people react
> accordingly, but it doesn’t mean that something will be built or that it is
> easy to detect the influence of a proposal.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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[Tagging] Map showing proposed ferry routes & terminals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Need a policy clarification please!

Looking at the map yesterday for my local area & a new commercial user has
added a number of ferry routes & locations for ferry terminals that, at
this stage, are still only proposed, while they are waiting on approval
from Council to go ahead with their ideas.

Have spoken to them & they have confirmed that nothing actually exists yet,
but these are the spots they would like to put terminals etc, so "watch
this space"!

Am I correct in telling them that it should only be on the map if it's on
the ground (or water in this case!), so please delete everything & add it
as it actually get's built / becomes operational?

Is there facility to map a "proposed" ferry route, in the way that proposed
highways are sometimes mapped?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Telecom local netwoks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Francois

I'm a little bit confused over some of your definitions?

You say man_made=telephone_exchange is to be replaced with
telecom=central_office, but then also say that a telecom=central_office "is
a small dedicated technical building hosting a main distribution frame to
connect subscribers to a telephone exchange"?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Telecom local netwoks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 June 2018 at 01:52, François Lacombe 
wrote:

> A telephone exchange is a particular device inside a central office.
> We look forward to map places, not devices for now.
>
> People used to put man_made=telephone_exchange or man_made=MDF to tag a
> building/place while it's only particular devices inside.
>

Thanks for that, but I'm afraid that the continual OSM worldwide
translation problem is raising it's ugly head yet again.

In Australia at least, "telephone exchange" refers to the building itself,
which houses the Main Frame (where all the cables are terminated) & the
various types of switching equipment. In 20 years of working for our
Telecom, I never heard the phrase "Central Office" - the closest thing that
would refer to is an Admin Office of some sort.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Lifeguards

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 8 June 2018 at 21:01,  wrote:

> I agree that the 5 different values shown on the wiki describe distinctly
> different things and should all be retained.
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
> *Sent:* Friday, 8 June 2018 20:41
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Lifeguards
>
>
>
> I strongly disagree that they are the same, they are used to map different
> things
>

Thanks, everyone, that's fine - keep it as 5 separate definitions, but, I
would think, all rendered the same ie  life ring?

For my own benefit though - lifeguard=place https://wiki.
openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_place. Do those poor
sod's take their chairs down the beach & sit, extremely uncomfortably,
behind a woefully inadequate windbreak :-) *in the same spot* every day?

Our lifeguards do sit in their 4wd cars on the beach every day, but they
can position themselves anywhere over a several 00 m stretch, depending on
beach & surf conditions, & where the safest swimming spot is that day, so
they couldn't be mapped as a lifeguard=place.


> "should be rendered" -> do you mean on the default OpenStreetMap style?
> Did you want to open a ticket on the stylesheet issue tracker
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/
> issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+lifeguard
>
>
I thought that that was what I was doing, but obviously not? To (mis-)
quote Oddball "I don't know how it works, I just use it"! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:17, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

>
>> Do we have any tagging scheme for “an area in which it is likely for a
>> lifeguard to be”? I’m not sure if simply tagging an area with
>> emergency=lifeguard lifeguard=place is appropriate for that.
>>
>
> supervised =* to
> indicate if the beach has a lifeguard (yes, no, interval - in the format
> of opening_hours =*
> ) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach
>

"Patrolled"? Or is that possibly suggesting police patrols?
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:38,  wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, take as an example this beach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> way/17960956
>
>
>
> I don’t think a blanket supervised=yes or lifeguard=yes is appropriate for
> that.
>
>
>
> But there are multiple areas, each maybe a few 100m, somewhere in which a
> lifeguard is going to put down their flags, beach chair, umbralla, whatever
> regularly.
>
>
>
> So the question becomes, what’s the appropriate tagging scheme for these
> areas?
>
> A major problem I have with that "beach" is that if someone has designated
all that stretch as "Surfers Paradise beach", then they have included ~9
separate named beaches under that one name :-( Looks like I've got some
re-mapping to do!

As part of our discussion here, that stretch includes 8 bases & 22 towers
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 21:15, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>  "lifeguard=place" is currently not used at all, and I do not believe it
> is a good tag. "place" is so generic, it doesn't allow for any deduction of
> meaning more than "thing" or "feature", and it is used for toponyms as a
> key in OSM.
>

There's currently 41 (or maybe 76?) of them in use


> On beaches I would distinguish lifeguards that operate out of a structure
> like a tower, a cabin, office or a similar building, from those who only
> sit in a chair below an umbrella or a temporary roof, or maybe not even.
>

That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a
surf club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each
morning, they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200
m's right of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place


> Shall it be a feature and a property (feature would indicate the position,
> as property you could add something like lifeguard=yes to a beach or
> swimming pool (likely implied).
>

That's a good idea!
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Wow, thanks everybody for your thoughts.

Going through a few comments

On 18 June 2018 at 17:58, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> If you use Google translate from English "lifeguard" to Russian, you
> get Спасатель
> Doing the translation in the other direction, (so from Спасатель to
> English) you get first "rescuer" and as a second "lifesaver".
> Perhaps this has something to do with the lifeguards found away from
> water in e.g . Russia ? Something that is "lost in translation" ?
>

Found 3 - 4 of these in a similar area, one of which is
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/354731850#map=18/56.73835/61.11087

Part of the description gives:  Медицина катастроф - трассовый пунк Малые
Брусяны which Mr Google translates to "Medicine of catastrophes - route
point Small Brusians", which I've got to say doesn't shed an awful lot of
light on the subject!

I'll take a stab at ambulance / paramedic / emergency rescue or something
along those lines, but I think we're agreed it's not a "lifeguard"?
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 16:24,  wrote:

>
>
> I didn’t check it out myself, but, based on what you wrote, probably.
> Also, probably means that it’s not a good idea to just do a mechanical edit
> from the current tags to the new ones without reviewing all of them.
>

No, this will have to be a manual check, but there's only ~900 worldwide so
not impossible. Some should  be pretty straight forward - if a building
beside the beach is marked as a base, then that's fine, but an apparently
empty stretch of beach, or water!, being marked as a base or tower isn't. I
guess  message to the original mapper, in a lot of case years ago, asking
or confirmation that there's actually something there will be the best way
to go?
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Re: [Tagging] A new Tag for "helicopter services"?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks

Graeme

On 19 June 2018 at 00:14, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> office=air_charter should fit. The ones around here offer both fixed wing
> and helicopter services.
>
> With office=air_charter you could also add
> air_charter=helicopter
>
> Clifford
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 6:06 AM gorgonz  wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a tag, that describes an office, that offers helicopter
>> services. Jobs are emergencies, round trips and aerial views for example.
>> What is to be noted: this describes the place of the office and not the
>> according landing field.
>>
> Was just looking at TagInfo & it shows aeroway=office, which has been used
precisely twice! So:

aeroway=office

office=air_charter; or maybe office=operations?

air_charter / operations=helicopter

Name; website; telephone etc

How's that sound?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Telecom local netwoks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 13 June 2018 at 06:54, François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Hi Warin,
>
> 2018-06-12 11:52 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> What about calling them an 'exchange' ... though it could be confused
>> with money - foreign currency trading etc.
>>  So umm 'communication exchange' ?
>>
>
> Exchange is a good input, thank you
>
> telecom=exchange can't really be confused with amenity=bureau_de_change
> can you ?
> This would be shorter to type than telecom=telecommunication_exchange or
> even telecom=telephone_exchange and less redundant with key name "telecom"
> We can think about telecom=exchange_point to meet consistency with
> telecom=connection_point
>
> I would really enjoy a consensus on this
>

Yep, telecom=exchange works for me :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Unresolved notes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry, copied mixed info

This bit should show

Others are showing as a note apparently at a location
https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1037676 but then it appears there's
nothing there to fix https://www.openstreetmap.
org/edit#map=17/-27.96197/153.40334

Thanks

Graeme

On 17 June 2018 at 16:21, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

> G'day all
>
> Just mentioned this on Bryan's iD thread, but he knows nothing about it.
>
> This last week, I've seen "Unresolved note" markers suddenly appear all
> over the place - I've seen them in Europe, US & here in Australia where I
> know for a fcat that they definitely weren't showing ~a week ago?
>
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/-27.8696/153.1784=N
>
> Some seem to be problem / error reports from maps.me, but others don't
> appear to make much sense at all eg https://www.openstreetmap.
> org/note/968837#map=17/-28.12680/153.48452=N
>
> Others are showing as a note apparently at a location https://www.
> openstreetmap.org/note/1278528#map=17/-27.96197/153.40334=N, but
> then it appears there's nothing there to fix https://www.openstreetmap.
> org/edit#map=17/-27.96197/153.40334
>
> Anybody got any ideas about what they're all about & what we're supposed
> to do about them?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] iD news - v2.9.0 now with Bing Streetside support

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 June 2018 at 00:32, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> Happy Summer!  
> I just released iD v2.9.0 this week and it’s now available on
> openstreetmap.org for editing.
>

Thanks Bryan.

So are the "Unresolved notes" markers appearing on the map part of your
work?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] iD news - v2.9.0 now with Bing Streetside support

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 June 2018 at 14:16, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> No, I haven’t seen that.. Can you share the location around where you see
> them?
> Thanks Bryan
>

All over the place!

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/-27.5841/153.1775=N

Weren't there a "few" ~5? days ago, when I looked at my home area, but then
I've noticed them when looking at maps that people have commented on in the
list (Europe, US etc) over these last few days. Went to my home again
yesterday & they're there?

Another thing I've just noticed as well.

I saw that you've also recently changed the Australian address format. Just
fixing some details & noticed that in edit mode, the suburb name (which has
been entered) isn't showing
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/-27.5841/153.1775=N, but it is
there in normal view only mode https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/563191304 ?

Graeme
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[Tagging] Unresolved notes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

G'day all

Just mentioned this on Bryan's iD thread, but he knows nothing about it.

This last week, I've seen "Unresolved note" markers suddenly appear all
over the place - I've seen them in Europe, US & here in Australia where I
know for a fcat that they definitely weren't showing ~a week ago?

eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/-27.8696/153.1784=N

Some seem to be problem / error reports from maps.me, but others don't
appear to make much sense at all eg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/968837#map=17/-28.12680/153.48452=N

Others are showing as a note apparently at a location
https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1278528#map=17/-27.96197/153.40334=N,
but then it appears there's nothing there to fix
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=17/-27.96197/153.40334

Anybody got any ideas about what they're all about & what we're supposed to
do about them?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

So, after a few days thought, can we say that we've resolved to work on
asking for emergency=lifeguard to be rendered, which would then go down to
lifeguard=base etc?


Thanks

Graeme

On 12 June 2018 at 07:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

>
>
> On 11 June 2018 at 17:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/06/18 15:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>>
>> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
>> 
>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
>> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>  
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>>
>>
>>
>> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>>
>>
>>
>> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
>> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
>> lifeguard_base.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to
>> indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of
>> the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like
>> it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on
>> the wiki and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a coast
>> guard station.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast
>> guards?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these keys,
>> they will probably all need to be manually checked.
>>
>>
>> Err not in the uk ... coast guard is not military.
>>
>> See
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution
>>
>>
>> In Australia that are volunteers that do marine rescue e.g.
>>
>> http://marinerescueqld.org.au/
>>
>>
>> None of these fit in to the beach lifeguard situation.
>>
>> I have no idea what the though was behind the OSM water rescue station .
>> I think that is just confusing.
>>
>> ___
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>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
> Agree with you that "Coast Guard" is not a one-size-fits-all term.
>
> There is amenity=rescue_station https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/
> Tag:amenity%3Drescue_station, which, to my mind should actually also be
> an emergency= listing?
>
> Looking at that, it appears that the whole emergency= area has been going
> to be cleaned up https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_
> Emergency_Cleanup - for the last 4 years!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] iD news - v2.9.0 now with Bing Streetside support

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry, address didn't copy for the edit screen I spoke of :-(

Should be
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=563191304#map=19/-28.07790/153.44752

Thanks

Graeme

On 17 June 2018 at 14:31, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

>
>
> On 17 June 2018 at 14:16, Bryan Housel  wrote:
>
>> No, I haven’t seen that.. Can you share the location around where you see
>> them?
>> Thanks Bryan
>>
>
> All over the place!
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/-27.5841/153.1775=N
>
> Weren't there a "few" ~5? days ago, when I looked at my home area, but
> then I've noticed them when looking at maps that people have commented on
> in the list (Europe, US etc) over these last few days. Went to my home
> again yesterday & they're there?
>
> Another thing I've just noticed as well.
>
> I saw that you've also recently changed the Australian address format.
> Just fixing some details & noticed that in edit mode, the suburb name
> (which has been entered) isn't showing https://www.
> openstreetmap.org/#map=10/-27.5841/153.1775=N, but it is there in
> normal view only mode https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/563191304 ?
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unresolved notes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 18 June 2018 at 09:18, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

>
> You can view notes on the OSM website, no need to go into the iD Editor.
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Notes#Viewing_notes under Map
> Layers > Map Notes.
>
> I've closed that note last night so it might not show up, they show up
> green when resolved for a short time after, then they'll automatically
> disappear, all documented at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Notes#Resolving_notes
>
> > Notes are marked as resolved, not removed or deleted, with the data
> being retained for future reference. However, once resolved notes have aged
> for a small while, they no longer appear on the map view. The data working
> group can hide notes so they won't appear at all, but this will be done for
> reasons outside normal editing and mapping; e.g., notes that are insulting
> to people, or that contain sensitive/confidential information.
>

Thanks Andrew, that explains it all beautifully - tried to search for
something like that myself but couldn't find anything - obviously searched
for teh wrong term?

Will go through & check Notes out to either fix them or resolve the
nonsense ones.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Unresolved notes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 June 2018 at 18:00, Anton Klim  wrote:

> Hi Graeme,
>
> Are you positive the notes were not there previously? Some of them are
> fairly old, and should’ve definitely been in the Notes layer of osm.org
> (which is optional).
> Notes can sometimes be placed by people thinking it’s a personal note only
> visible to themselves. They also won’t appear in iD/won’t actively
> highlight the feature they refer to, so some mind bending might be
> required. E.g the last one, I’m guessing no speed limit was set on the road
> when the note was added.
>
> Anton
>

Hi Anton

Quite definitely weren't visible as a couple of them appeared within a few
00 m's of my home location, which is something you definitely notice! When
I've just looked, the "Notes" layer is ticked which is why they're now
visible - don't know if I managed to tick it in error, or if an update of
some sort now set's it to visible as standard?

Guessed the speed limit ones were related to no / wrong limits so wasn't
worried about them - I copied a wrong link showing what I was talking
about.

If they're not in iD, how do you fix them? I've resolved a couple & they're
now showing as green ticks rather than red exclamation marks, but how do
you make them disappear? Or is that something that only the originator can
do?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Unresolved notes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 June 2018 at 18:39, Michael Reichert  wrote:

> Hi Graeme,
>
> Am 17.06.2018 um 08:24 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:
> >
> > Others are showing as a note apparently at a location
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1037676 but then it appears there's
> > nothing there to fix https://www.openstreetmap.
> > org/edit#map=17/-27.96197/153.40334
>
> The note looks like SEO spam but dumped into notes than into map objects
> (nodes and ways). You might try what geocoders of Google and other
> companies return as result for that address. Maybe it is exactly that
> location?
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>

Thanks Michael & Andrew

Yep, agree that looks like spam. Googling the company name brings back
pretty well exactly that data & description, so it's one we could delete,
but the problem is finding it?

The location on the map is in the middle of the oval at Southport High
School, but there's no nodes in the spot shown. The address listed would be
across the road & up the hill a little bit, but once again, no node shown
there either? I don't know if that business actually exists at that
location (& it's a 45 minute drive away, so I'm not going up to check it!).

How do we find the node with the spam data listed, or, as you say, has it
possibly been listed as a note only, so how do we delete the note?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 17 June 2018 at 21:34, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> If the consensus is to change it to emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=*,
> then I think this needs to be changed in:
>
> 1. The wiki
>
>
> I don't think it's far to the people who put the effort in to do a great
> job on the wiki documentation and those who've been mapping to that
> accepted tagging per the wiki, to change (4) without us first/while doing
> 1,2,3.
>

Thanks Andrew

Did some looking at the various lifeguard pages earlier, then had a play
with Overpass Turbo to have a look at what's what, & it looks as if quite a
few of the existing "lifeguard" entries may not be correct?

Is everyone in agreement that "lifeguard" should relate to somebody located
at a beach / lake / river / pool etc to watch over swimmers & provide
assistance as required?

Similarly, a marked lifeguard facility (base / tower / platform) should be
a permanent structure, or, in the case of a lifeguard=place, be located in
the same position all the time?

When I had a quick scan through various entries, I found a few
lifeguard=bases marked as being at both fire (well away from water) &
mountain-rescue stations; towers shown as actually being located in the
water!; others are on the beach, but nothing is visible in various
satellite images, while some show a shape in one image, but other's,
possibly during the northern winter, show an empty deserted beach.

Also found a few listings in Russia, that show lifeguard=place located
beside a highway in a building that's also marked Doctor, & with a helipad
out the back, once again, nowhere near water?

Maybe the wiki's need to be modified (consolidated?) to emphasize that
"lifeguard" refers to rescue of swimmers in the water?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

The first thing fire alarm box brought to my mind was the common "Break
glass" fire alarms
http://www.az100years.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/photodune-781034-fire-alarm-s.jpg,
which are found just about everywhere, so would be virtually unmappable?

Is there risk of confusion between the two?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] The endless debate about "landcover" as a top-level tag

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

& it's an impossible question to answer, but how many of those 3.5 million
tags are on "areas of land managed for forestry"? :-)

Thanks

Graeme

On 8 June 2018 at 08:11, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 07/06/18 23:00, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
>> I think landuse=forest should remain intact, for cases where forestry is
>> actually how the land is used.
>> So the tag is not deprecated, it's just applicated more consistently.
>>
>
> So you're proposing to change the meaning of a tag that has 3.5 million
> uses?
>
> I'm sure that you have only the best of intentions, but, er, good luck
> with that :)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Lifeguards

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi

Just raised (or re-raised) the suggestion that lifeguard stations
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Aemergency should be rendered
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4918#event-1668877116, as it
could be a potentially life-saving addition to the map.

Bryan had quite correctly pointed out that there are lot of similar, but
all pretty rarely used (<1000) tags for essentially the same thing, so has
suggested replacing them all with a simple emergency=lifeguard.

I can't see any major problem with doing that, but also keeping
emergency=life_ring for those places (boardwalks, jetties etc) where an
unaccompanied life ring is positioned.

What does everybody think?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 June 2018 at 15:31, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>
>
> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
> lifeguard_base.
>

Had a look at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserrettungsstation & it's a
purely German organisation, which would appear to be life guards, although
with possibly a bit of Coast Guard / Marine Rescue included?

I'd also go for the simple arrangement:

emergency=lifeguard

lifeguard=base/place/platform/tower


although


emergency=life_ring should remain separate


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 June 2018 at 17:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/06/18 15:39, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>
> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
> 
> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 15:31
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
> > Also, water_rescue_station is probably identical to lifeguard_base
>
>
>
> Agree based on the description given at https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_rescue_station it sounds like
> lifeguard_base.
>
>
>
> Just based on the tag name I thought it meant something like
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_guard. The wikipedia page seems to
> indicate coast_guard is a common term internationally (even though many of
> the agencies worldwide aren't known as the "Coast Guard", it seems like
> it's common enough for emergency=coast_guard.
>
>
>
>
>
> That was my first thought too, but then I looked at the description on the
> wiki and it very much sounds like a life guard base and not a coast guard
> station.
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder if any of the current water_rescue_station's are really coast
> guards?
>
>
>
>
>
> That’s certainly possible. If the decision is made to merge these keys,
> they will probably all need to be manually checked.
>
>
> Err not in the uk ... coast guard is not military.
>
> See
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution
>
>
> In Australia that are volunteers that do marine rescue e.g.
>
> http://marinerescueqld.org.au/
>
>
> None of these fit in to the beach lifeguard situation.
>
> I have no idea what the though was behind the OSM water rescue station . I
> think that is just confusing.
>
> ___
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>
>
Agree with you that "Coast Guard" is not a one-size-fits-all term.

There is amenity=rescue_station
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drescue_station, which, to
my mind should actually also be an emergency= listing?

Looking at that, it appears that the whole emergency= area has been going
to be cleaned up
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Emergency_Cleanup - for the
last 4 years!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Telecom local netwoks

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 12 June 2018 at 00:21, Philip Barnes  wrote:

>
>
> On 11 June 2018 14:58:59 BST, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
> >> For example my town has a largeish building,
> >
> >They're not necessarily 'small' buildings, the way the Wiki suggests:
>
> I agree they are not small, the one in my small town is the same size as
> the swimming pool building.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>

Getting away from mapping for a moment :-), but talking "telephone
exchanges" internationally.

Are all of your's the same as most (definitely the bigger ones) in
Australia, & built on absolute prime real estate? :-)

Exchanges near here are almost always in the centre of town, usually on a
main road & frequently the busiest intersection - one even has ocean views!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] A new Tag for "helicopter services"?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 20 June 2018 at 03:43, gorgonz  wrote:

> imho  such a place is like a clerical. Someone sits in the "office"
> managing and acquiring orders ;-). In so far, I think that office is ok.
> Or did I misunderstand something? English is not my mother tongue.
>

No, you're doing very well! :-)

Yes, I'd agree with you that it's an office, because that's where all the
paperwork & admin is done.

So if we all agree on office=air_charter, would you then carry it down to
types of charter eg joy flights, training, aerial photo's etc or just leave
that to the company's website to explain?
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Re: [Tagging] pied headquarters (was: emergency=lifeguard)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 22:36, Tobias Wrede  wrote:

> Speaking of the wiki. May any native speaker explain to me what "operated
> _pied_ headquarters" are? What does "pied" mean" Or am I missing an obvious
> typo here?
>
> from the wiki: "The station is near to be guarded waters and serves the
> emergency services of the organization as operated pied headquarters and
> guard. " https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dwater_
> rescue_station
>
>
Saw that myself & wondered, but then also saw this wiki
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserrettungsstation, part of which says

"forces of the operating organization as a location, headquarters and
guard."

I'm guessing pied is location (or similar)?
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry, everyone, but getting back to discussions re the proposed tag!

On 19 June 2018 at 19:11, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> First step: Cheat as much as you can!!!
> Find a wiki page you like and use that as your template.
>
> Then look around for other wiki pages .. if you likle some bit of it ..
> steel that too.
>
> Combine them all together and see how it looks.
>
> Then do the content.
> Here is one I have hacked at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce
>
> You can use photos from wikipedia. Some times they are very good. If you
> can find one that does the whole description thing you are on a winner.
>

Is there a blank page template to copy - had a look but couldn't find one?
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I've had a go at starting a wiki page for info & discussion:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Emergency%3Dlifeguard

This is my first attempt at a wiki, so please be kind! :-)

All input welcome from those of you who actually know how to do it!

Thanks

Graeme

On 19 June 2018 at 14:58,  wrote:

> Something like that is exactly what I as looking for…
>
>
>
> *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 19 June 2018 14:24
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard
>
>
>
>
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a
> surf club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each
> morning, they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200
> m's right of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
> that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place
>
>
>
> Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.
>
>
>
> Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a lifeguard
> on duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact location, or too messy?
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 08:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

>
> That's the concern I have with "place" - our lifesavers operate out of a
> surf club, a permanent building behind the beach (lifeguard=base). Each
> morning, they will decide the safest part of the beach, so will set up 200
> m's right of the club this morning, but tomorrow they may be 100 m's left -
> that shouldn't be a lifeguard=place
>

Just had a thought as I'm starting to work on a wiki page.

Could we use lifeguard=area (or similar) to show that there is a lifeguard
on duty somewhere in this area, but not at an exact location, or too messy?
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Re: [Tagging] Street exits

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Sorry if I've misunderstood Peter, but is there any difference between this
& a normal driveway?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] new role for route relations: reverse

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Could you fool the routers / system by inserting an imaginary
mini-roundabout at the end of the cul-de-sac?

That way the router would think that the bus drives in, goes round the
roundabout, then drives out again.

Include a note that the roundabout doesn't actually exist, but is only
shown for this reason, so that other mappers don't then keep deleting it!

Thanks

Graeme

On 29 May 2018 at 07:00, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Jo  wrote:
>
>> I have also mapped many routes with loops, lollipops/spoons where the
>> same ways are traversed multiple times. But I had not encountered a route
>> where the bus needs to do parts driving backwards. I think this is mostly
>> avoided because it's (obviously) a dangerous maneuver. (and I would say
>> especially if you have to do it multiple times per day)
>>
>
> On a tertiary road which was a through way it might be dangerous.  This is
> a cul-de-sac which is a residential road
> hanging off a residential road which itself hangs off a residential road.
> The bus going past is the high point of the
> day. :)
>
> As for suggestions that it could be handled with note=*, data consumers
> don't read notes (and mappers might not
> read them either, even if the editor highlights them).  Mappers stand a
> better chance of reading a description, but
> consumers still won't see them.  However, the actual route shown on the
> map indicates that there is something
> unusual going on at that point.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] highway=service // public road?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

> On May 26, 2018, at 6:09 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> >
> > then have service
> > be for "place you can drive that is not a legal road".


But you still have service=parking_aisle for car parks, & similar
classifications.

Around here, at least, areas such as shopping centre car parks are gazetted
public roads, so normal road rules apply, & the Police can charge you with
speeding, hooning, drink-driving etc, even if you don't leave the bounds of
the car park.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 27 May 2018 at 23:20, Paul Allen  wrote:

>  because they're ephemeral
>

Or are they intermittent? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks

Graeme

On 28 May 2018 at 05:06, Paul Allen  wrote:


>  but I'd call them street vendors.
>
> --
> Paul
>

So for clarification, when there's a market that only operates on eg
Saturday mornings
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0861864,153.4491747,3a,75y,247.72h,87.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCnCOKIP7GoJVWDi7JZ0yg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
which is tagged in OSM as amenity=marketplace; opening_hours=those
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.08616/153.44888, should that also
be tagged as street vendors, or not, as they're not actually on the
"street", but are set-up under tents / pergolas etc on the School oval?

Same thing when the market is in a public park - street vendor or not?
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Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 28 May 2018 at 09:07, Paul Allen  wrote:

> How about outdoor_vendor?
>
> However, both of the examples you give are the sort that usually don't
> have fixed assignments for vendors
> so you couldn't map them at stall level anyway.
>

Fair enough on both counts,

Would you tag the entire area eg
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3 as
outdoor_vendor though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a
marketplace?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] nautical channels

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 1 July 2018 at 13:59,  wrote:

> Maybe following the same scheme as for highways:
>
>
>
> waterway=navigable_channel (for way along the middle of the channel)
>
> area:waterway=navigable_channel (for area bound by buoys, with an
> intersecting node at both ends between the area and the middle line way)
>
>
>
>
>
> The real question becomes: tagging as a way in the middle of the channel?
> Tagging as an area (by mapping the buoys as seamarks, then connecting them
> to form an area)? Both? Either?
>

I've been having a think about this idea & just can't decide what would be
best?

Would be easiest to just put a line up the middle, similar to a road, & say
"this is the channel", ignoring the actual width (which would be very hard
to determine anyway).

Obviously, tagging it as an area would show the width of the channel, but
do we just take it as a straight line from nav. marker to nav. marker, or
try to take into account any variations in width?

The problem with both schemes is what happens when the channel opens into
an area of safe water, in the way that a river opens into a lake. Do we
stop the "river" at this side of the "lake", then start it again at the
other side, & show the area of the "lake" as being part of the channel?

Whichever way, it will involve a lot of work to get it all correct, unless
we are able to copy details from existing nautical charts, with all the
associated copyright issues?

I'm actually wondering if this is something that should be in Open*Street*Map
at all, or whether it should be left in OpenSeaMap?
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Re: [Tagging] Canoe route

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 30 June 2018 at 02:37, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

>
> I tagged the route as a relation a long time ago (route=canoe) but was
> updating some areas lately and came across those untagged ways again and
> their invisibility began nagging at me. While I don't expect anybody to
> actually use a routing service to put together a wilderness trip at their
> desk, I want my work to be helpful for canoeists when following "the trail"
> as it weaves through myriad lakes, around islands, from put-in to take-out,
> for each leg of the route. If OSM-based maps don't show the lake crossings,
> how will users follow the parts of the route with the untagged ways? I'm
> unsure if such a route will be followable.
>

Dave, I know basically nothing about canoeing so please excuse a probably
dumb question!

When people are following the trail & arrive at a lake, would everybody use
the same route across the lake, or would you go straight across, while I
follow right round the shoreline?

Assuming different people use different routes, would this effect any
possible routing?
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Re: [Tagging] Boot cleaning stations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 30 June 2018 at 10:57, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 30/06/18 10:20, Paul Allen wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 12:57 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Any other ideas as to words to use?
>>
>
> Disinfection?  Depends if they're just scrapers or if they include some
> antimicrobial/antifungal
> spray/dip.  The UK's DEFRA says of foot and mouth disease that farmers
> must have approved
> disinfectant and cleaning materials for essential visitors.  So are these
> serious jobs or just
> toys?
>
> Footwear_disinfection seems better than boot_disinfection, because you'll
> always get some idiot
> read "boot disinfection" and decide it doesn't apply to him because he's
> wearing trainers.  In any
> case, there will either be an icon or (probably) no icon and no text. :)
>
>
> The ones I am thinking of have disinfectant. However I'd accept ones that
> only go after seeds too. It just depends on what the object is.
> They are permanent installations. Foot and mouth ones tend to be portable
> for temporary use.
> They tend to be easy to use as if they are difficult they won't get used
> or used well and that would defeat the purpose. So not toys.
>
> 
> Now more inclined to man_made=footwear_disinfection ... really separates
> it from a simple polish.
>
>
How about

man_made=footwear_decontamination?

Makes it pretty obvious that you're just talking about getting them
polished!
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Re: [Tagging] tagging bicycle charging stations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 28 June 2018 at 04:38, Max  wrote:

>
> but this will change soon as standardization happens.


You mean like this: https://xkcd.com/927/? :-)
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Re: [Tagging] public_transport=platform rendering on osm-carto

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 19:36, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

Have been following this whole conversation with interest (&, I must admit,
some confusion!).

Not wanting to be at all awkward :-), but if

The stop_position is the spot where the vehicle stops, it is not strictly
> needed for routing (of pedestrians) but the bus needs to know where to stop
> (doesn't typically need OSM navigation to drive his bus though).
>

then why are we all worrying so much about stop positions? The driver knows
he has to stop at this location, & (I'm pretty certain! :-)) he's not
staring at his phone / GPS to see if OSM says he at's exactly the right
spot on the ground to stop the bus!

Or are we making provision for fully autonomous driverless buses, relying
on OSM for guidance to find their correct stops? :-)
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 08:50, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> Discount stores are, as I understand it (I don't have any remotely near
> me) more of a cut-down wholesaler but open
> to the public.  Presentation and packaging is that of a wholesaler, and
> savings come from buying in bulk. Depending on
> the particular retailer, product range may be primarily foodstuff
> (overlapping with supermarkets and convenience stores)
> or might concentrate on things like office supplies.  When it's foodstuffs
> you're not buying a consumer-size box of
> cornflakes but a very large carton of consumer-size boxes of cornflakes.
>

Fair call Paul. I wasn't thinking of the Costco style of shop where you
have to pay for membership, but can then literally buy a pallet of
whatever. I guess they're discount?


> Of course, there are probably stores that are a blend of the above.  I
> think we need a real-world mailing list so we can
> vote on how to make the real world conform to our tagging schemes.
>

That's it! From now on OSM will serve as the world's dictionary & you will
all use the words that we define! If you don't comply, we will wipe you off
the map! :-)
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 02:49, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> So it is shop=convenience that is selling “from the pallet” and is likely
>> to be a cheaper?
>>
>
> In my area convenience stores are relatively small with a limited choice
> of products with the defining feature being that they are open more hours
> than a typical store, often open 24x7.
>
> Usually the prices are higher at a convenience store, not lower.
>

My view would be that "cheaper" supermarkets eg Aldi would still be a
shop=supermarket

shop=convenience is a smaller supermarket, usually with longer opening
hours, but also more expensive than full size supermarkets. They are the
proverbial "corner store". I think 7/11 is a worldwide example?

To my mind, =discount & =variety are exactly the same shops. While =variety
has a full article, I'd personally think that they should both be called
=discount.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 05:29, Jmapb  wrote:

> On 6/25/2018 3:22 PM, Jmapb wrote:
>
> On 6/24/2018 6:22 PM, Paul Allen wrote:
>
>
> Map it as the main shop type and ignore the rest.  Or use
> semicolon-separated values in the shop=, with the
> main shop type first.  Or map each function as a node in a different place
> in the building.
>
> There's no good way of doing it, just various bad ways with different
> advantages and disadvantages.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
> The variety of this I usually use is: Map it as the main shop type, and
> list all services under the description= tag.
>
> shop=shoe_repair
> description=shoe polishing and repair, watch repair, key copying
>
> But that probably won't help when you're looking to get a key copied and
> don't think to check the description tag of the shoe repair shop around the
> corner. As you say, no good way to do this, just various bad ways.
>
> jmb
>
>
> Pardon the self-reply, but actually, this might be a case where a
> shop=shoe_repair could also be tagged craft=key_cutter. Don't see why not.
> jmb
>

That sounds like it would work!

Thanks J & Paul
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Re: [Tagging] shop=shoe_repair

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 22:27, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> 3) A place where shoes are repaired.  The name for a person who does this
> is cobbler.
>

In Australia at least, these sort of "shops" are frequently located in a
kiosk in the middle of a shopping centre, where they repair shoes, cut
keys, do engraving, replace watch & remote batteries etc.

https://www.stockland.com.au/shopping-centres/centres/stockland-burleigh-heads/stores/multi-services

https://www.robinatowncentre.com.au/shop/stores/mister-minit

How would you map something like that?
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=first_aid_kit

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 13:56, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> On Jun 23, 2018, at 10:32 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
> There should also be a separate page for first aid facility, if you're not
> busy :-)
>
>
> I still think a staffed facility should be something under `healthcare=*`
> - there is lots on that page already.
>

Fair enough. Thought that it would be something to also (?) list under the
Lifeguard heading we've been discussing - if you've "cut your foot", you go
to the lifeguard & he can provide first aid & call an ambulance if required

> Mentioned on the lifeguard thread the other day that the whole Emergency
> area has been getting cleaned up for the last 4 years!
> As we've seen over this last couple of weeks, it really does need it.
> How do we stir up the cleaning process - comment on the discussion page /
> start a thread here / ???
>
>
> Yes!  Start a thread here on the mailing list for general discussion 
>

OK, I'm a glutton for punishment - after all, Lifeguards is only up to ~80
replies by now & nothing really resolved yet! :-)
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=first_aid_kit

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 12:00, Bryan Housel  wrote:

>
> Anyway I just moved it to `emergency=first_aid_kit`
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dfirst_aid_kit
> 
>

There should also be a separate page for first aid facility, if you're not
busy :-)

Mentioned on the lifeguard thread the other day that the whole Emergency
area has been getting cleaned up for the last 4 years!

As we've seen over this last couple of weeks, it really does need it.

How do we stir up the cleaning process - comment on the discussion page /
start a thread here / ???
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Re: [Tagging] emergency=lifeguard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 19 June 2018 at 23:41, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> FWIW, I volunteer on a back country ski patrol (winter rescue) and while
> we have a building we use as our base of operations the areas we patrol are
> very dependent on snow pack and where we notice people going to. Your
> concept of lifeguard=area could possibly be applied to our situation. That
> said, mapping an exact boundary of the area served would be very
> problematic: Unlike a developed ski area there are no signs indicating you
> are leaving the the official boundaries. It is, after all, undeveloped
> “back country”.
>
> The boundary issue may also apply to lifeguards on the beach: Both to the
> north and south of the beaches in the town I live in there is no clear
> demarcation of where the area served ends (no signs, etc.). Having a few
> years of observation and having talked to some of the year round
> lifeguards, I have a general feel for the areas but not exact enough to map.
>
> And it may well be seasonal: Most of the lifeguards work only in summer as
> that is when the crowds are largest and the city (local beach by me) and
> the state (beaches to the north and south of the city) save money by having
> a greatly reduced staff and thus coverage in the off season.
>

That's the problem I have with only trying to map an area, or undefined
place - just don't think it will work?

> Southern California. Two things probably contribute to the local practice:
> Lack of crowds during winter and winter storms typically do the most damage
> to beach side facilities. I am not even sure that other beach towns near by
> follow the same practice, only that the town I live in does.
>
>
So the photos on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_tower &
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard_platform
would be your sort of mobile towers?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 22:46, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I would prefer to keep it in aeroway as proposed, because it is aviation
> related.
>
> Btw, the emergency key is about the location of emergency facilities and
> equipment, would this even fit?
>

Yes, I would agree aeroway=, rather than emergency=
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 21:25, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> Give way to low-flying aircraft.
>

Especially when it's a fighter returning to base! :-)
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