Re: [Tagging] maxweight : x tons exept for bus

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 9. Sept. 2024 um 10:55 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> It has nothing to do with the vehicle specification.
>
> The sign is there to stop the destruction of the way through overloading
> the structure, thus an unload hgv may meet the required weight limit and
> use the way, but when loaded exceed the weigh limit and not be able to
> use the same way.



it may depend on the area, but around here restrictions relating to actual
weight are rather rare, because they are impractical to verify, while
weight ratings can be seen in the vehicle documents and are easy to check.
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[Tagging] VOTING, Fwd: [General talk/Tagging general discussion] Proposal to replace `denomination=mormon` with `denomination=latter-day_saint`

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Begin forwarded message:

> From: dknelson9876 via OpenStreetMap Community Forum 
> 
> Date: 14 August 2024 at 04:44:16 CEST
> To:
> Subject: [General talk/Tagging general discussion] Proposal to replace 
> `denomination=mormon` with `denomination=latter-day_saint`
> Reply-To: OpenStreetMap Community Forum 
> 
> 
> 
>   dknelson9876 
> August 14
> I have created the formal proposal matching this discussion on the forum: 
> link and started the RFC period
> 

FYI, the voting period has begun on this proposal’s wiki page.___
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[Tagging] RFC: deprecate cycleway=shared (forwarded)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

crossposting on behalf of tordans:



https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-feature-proposal-deprecate-cycleway-shared/116579



Hello! I am looking into deprecating cycleway=shared (notshared_lane). Please 
find the proposal at Proposal:Deprecate cycleway=shared - OpenStreetMap Wiki

I suggest we use this thread for comments (instead of the Wiki Discussion page).___
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[Tagging] [Voting] (Post-comment changes) Add ability to specify ordering-only phone number, sms-only phone numbers and related tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

forwarding on behalf of Jason, Begin forwarded message:

> From: Jason Olshefsky via OpenStreetMap Community Forum 
> 
> Date: 16 July 2024 at 04:26:10 CEST
> To: dieterdre...@gmail.com
> Subject: [General talk/Tagging general discussion] [Voting] (Post-comment 
> changes) Add ability to specify ordering-only phone number, sms-only phone 
> numbers and related tags
> Reply-To: OpenStreetMap Community Forum 
> 
> 
> 
>   Jason_Olshefsky 
> July 16
> After a second round of comments, voting is now open on the proposal, “Add 
> ability to specify ordering-only phone number, sms-only phone numbers and 
> related tags ”, announced in the community topic, “[RFC] Add ordering:* keys; 
> add contact:sms ”.
> 
> Please, cross post this announcement on the tagging mailing list on my behalf 
> by sending an email to: tagging@openstreetmap.org. Thanks!
> 
> Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
> 
> You are receiving this because you enabled mailing list mode.
> 
> To unsubscribe from these emails, click here.
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Deprecate crossing=zebra in favor of crossing:markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28 Jun 2024, at 21:15, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> at the current pace, the specific combination of
> "crossing=uncontrolled, crossing:markings=zebra" is probably going to
> have double the usage of "crossing=zebra" by the end of the year.


that’s possible, just currently both are the same, you cannot see it in 
taghistory because it doesn’t allow for tag combinations 
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Deprecate crossing=zebra in favor of crossing:markings

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28 Jun 2024, at 17:52, bauer3--- via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would like to introduce my proposal to deprecate crossing=zebra and replace 
> the instances with the nowadays more popular alternative of 
> crossing:markings=zebra and crossing=uncontrolled.


it is almost equally popular, 453k of crossing=zebra vs. 461k of the 
combination you favor.

Frankly, I prefer a simple single tag instead of 2 for the usual crossing case 
I encounter all the time, the crossing:markings subtag could still be useful 
for particular situations, but I think having it implied by a simple 
crossing=zebra is easier. Also, I dislike the „uncontrolled“ term because I 
think it is counter intuitive for a crossing that is controlled by crossing 
markings and often traffic signs 
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Re: [Tagging] Two way street, but entry of motor vehicles blocked at one end. Relation correct? Tagging correct?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23 Jun 2024, at 12:35, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> So I think you should absolutely have the oneway section, even if you
> also add another tag.  Unless of course there is evidence that the large
> majority of routers would do the right thing.


there is no oneway section because there is no oneway sign, there is only a 
no-entry sign at a certain point, and the no-entry restriction relation is 
perfect for representing it, many routers will understand it or could easily 
support it because turning restrictions are expected to be implemented in 
routers
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Re: [Tagging] Two way street, but entry of motor vehicles blocked at one end. Relation correct? Tagging correct?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1 Jun 2024, at 19:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> yes, but tagging very short stretch of road (say 3m where it is not connected 
> to anything) 
> conveys the same info without using relations



it is tagging for the router, you add a oneway restriction where there isn’t 
because you assume it will work just as fine. Turn restrictions and similar 
restrictions require the use of relations, it is not a problem it’s the default
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Re: [Tagging] Two way street, but entry of motor vehicles blocked at one end. Relation correct? Tagging correct?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 21. Mai 2024 um 15:01 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> In such case I would typically place such tags on
> a short section (meter or two) of way near end where
> such restriction is applied.
>


the restriction is not applied to a section, it is applied to a point, you
may not cross the sign in this direction.
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Re: [Tagging] Two way street, but entry of motor vehicles blocked at one end. Relation correct? Tagging correct?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20 May 2024, at 21:57, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
> 
> I tried that, but could not get the from, via and to nodes to work out. 


create a node at the actual start of the crossing street (some meters away from 
the crossing of the center ways) and split it there, that’s your via node.
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Re: [Tagging] Two way street, but entry of motor vehicles blocked at one end. Relation correct? Tagging correct?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

there is also
restriction=no_entry
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Re: [Tagging] voting shop=tortilla

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 May 2024, at 23:21, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> If you do, I will appreciate it if you comment in this thread that you did 
> crosspost my call for votes on the proposal.


I sent it to the tagging ml
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[Tagging] voting shop=tortilla

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

forwarding this from the forum:

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/voting-feature-proposal-shop-tortilla/113059

Voting will start tomorrow for shop=tortilla at the proposal page. I am not 
familiar with mailing lists, so, please, cross post this announcement on the 
tagging mailing list on my behalf by sending an email to: 
tagging@openstreetmap.org. If you do, I will appreciate it if you comment in 
this thread that you did crosspost my call for votes on the proposal.

I went ahead with the voting process since there were no more new comments in 
the RFC for a couple of days now.

Please vote YES! Am I allowed to vote, by the way? Proposal:Shop=tortilla - 
OpenStreetMap Wiki___
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Industrial tagging scheme complementing man made=works (was:works:type and works:process)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3 May 2024, at 15:39, Daniel Evans  wrote:
> 
> This proposal has now been updated on feedback, both here and on the talk page


thank you for working on this, the current improvements are promising, I think 
you could work a little bit on the page structure, now there are definitions in 
the proposal section and also at the end “specific tags”, maybe you could list 
the tags that you are planning to introduce in one place, and then describe 
tags and values each under a subheading of the (sub)key (if this sounds 
complicated, what I mean is rename “specific tags” to “works:stage” and move it 
into the proposal, etc. some cut+paste), or make a wikitable for the tags (IMHO 
these are a pain to work with though), because it is becoming long 
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Re: [Tagging] breads of bakeries

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 3. Mai 2024 um 14:09 Uhr schrieb Zoon van Michiel <
spaanse@gmail.com>:

> What is the benefit of putting the breads a bakery sells into OSM? 
> Otherwise, bread is just bread. I will choose the variety I like best when
> I get there.

That even bakers might not advertise which sorts of bread they are selling
> could be another clue that it is not important.
> If the bakery is too small to have a website, it is not special and you
> can expect the regular selection of bread for the region you are in.



I have been looking at websites of local bakeries (didn't even expect they
had one, but actually they do), and there wasn't information about specific
types of bread (other than pictures of it, and text describing the
production by artisanal means). I agree that mostly bakeries in my area
will have a similar selection of bread and rolls, by type, but IMHO there
are significant differences in quality and taste (especially the latter may
be hard to describe in neutral, verifiable terms, although from discussion
with others my impressions about quality seem to be shared, so it is not
just "personal").

What I think could be interesting and apply universally, among others:
- natural or chemical leavening,
- availability of whole grain bread,
- kind of oven (wood fired or other (typically electrical), this is already
tagged with "oven")



> To further that point: because bakeries have similar offerings in similar
> regions, you don't need to tag all the bread they offer, only maybe what
> they don't offer.
>


no. Really not. If the list of what they offer is too long, the list of
what they don't offer will still be much longer.




>
> Why tag baguette=yes  in France, it is much easier to tag baguette=no  on
> the few shops that don't sell it. The same holds for basically all types of
> bread.
>


there are certainly different types of baguettes in France, while outside
of France, you will typically find just 1 or maybe 2 types.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] breads of bakeries

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I agree for specific types of bread, but maybe we can have "classes" of
breads, if that makes sense. Personally, when going into a bakery I am
interested in the quality of the bread more than the exact type. Typically
I would ask "do you have bread made of natural sourdough" and the answers
will vary from "no" to "yes" to "all our breads are made from natural
sourdough", and I find this information worthy to record (although I am not
doing it yet). Similarly it can be interesting if they sell only bread or
also bread rolls, or also pizza.
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Re: [Tagging] breads of bakeries

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

what about
sells:bread=X;Y;Z (xyz being bread types)
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 30. Apr. 2024 um 01:47 Uhr schrieb Juan Pablo Tolosa Sanzana <
jptolosanz...@outlook.cl>:

> It has no sense to inflating classifications of every island in the word
> for being the most important road in respective island.
>
> If a neighbor garage is more quieter than the mine is not a justification
> to elevate road classification of one of them to compensate this difference.
>
> The highway=* tag is no made to use all classifications in a region
> delimited by you.
>
>


yes, agree to all of this, this is why I mentioned the length. A continent
is also not a region arbitrarily delimited by someone, especially if it is
completely surrounded by water, like antarctica.




> You need take account the function supplied by the road, the differences
> in the highway value are related to the function of the road.
>


The main criterion that we decided was "relative importance in the road
network". Function somehow has to do with it.
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 30. Apr. 2024 um 10:54 Uhr schrieb Szem :

> There was a similar conversation in the Hungarian community as well. I
> would like to ask what you think about such (and similar) official bicycle
> route signs:
>
> https://www.google.hu/maps/@47.4675022,18.8055463,3a,35.3y,85.25h,81.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_4lLYsjnTzP_R_swduneHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
>
> https://www.google.hu/maps/@47.4653939,18.8056303,3a,16.7y,337.24h,87.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5KRYaFzRIWPFrMwQBrYf9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
> do they imply a bicycle=designated value for the road if it is not a
> cycleway (because it is unnecessary for that), or is it enough to just put
> the lcn/rcn etc. value on the road.
>


IMHO, these markers have no legal meaning for accessibility (e.g. in
Germany and Italy), but I am not familiar with Hungarian law. Generally, a
route is mapped as a route (relation and/or lcn/rcn/ncn tags), while access
(bicycle=designated) is mapped according to traffic signs (these route
markers in jurisdictions I am aware of, are not "traffic signs" in this
sense). Legally, there is nothing wrong with a bicycle route where cycling
is not allowed (e.g. on short stretches), it just means you have to push.
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between "yes" and "designated" in access tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30 Apr 2024, at 08:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
>> In fact, some bicycle trails are signed where
>> cycling is illegal 
> 
> So does that then make it legal?


no, in Germany it also happens from time to time that we discover signposted 
bicycle routes where cycling is legally forbidden, often presumably because the 
signs are not “correct” (not what is intended), and the legal conclusion from 
such a situation is you have to push the bike on such sections. Route markers 
do not change legal accessibility as defined by traffic signs.___
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Apr. 2024 um 16:25 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> (second note also may benefit from fix as the most important in
> Vatican is not highway=trunk - though again, maybe it can be avoided
> via "Vatican has no road network system").
>


the Vatican has a road network system, but it is not publicly accessible.
The idea that we should start from the most important roads (trunk) should
not refer to a "country" but to a "region", i.e. the question is not which
are the most important roads in the Vatican but which are these in Central
Italy (and FWIW, in Italy we adopted the German idea, to use "trunk" for
roads that are built to motorway like standards without being motorways, so
that the major roads are tagged as primary if they present level crossings).
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Apr. 2024 um 16:06 Uhr schrieb Fernando Trebien <
fernando.treb...@gmail.com>:

> > why you think that place=hamlet are automatically entitled to
> > highway=tertiary?
>
> The wiki emphasizes the highway classification should consider the
> relative importance of roads within regional contexts even for the
> lowest highway classes:
>
> "Outside urban areas, tertiary roads are those with low to moderate
> traffic which link smaller settlements such as villages or hamlets."
>


Yes, but villages and hamlets are just examples, as are settlements. IMHO
there are no settlements required for a road to be tagged highway. If you
strictly read this paragraph from the wiki, if a road doesn't link a
settlement, it could not be tagged even tertiary. A main road can just as
well lead to a train station or an airport / airfield, or to a mining area,
or to a seaport or military base, no settlement required. The settlements
are mentioned in the wiki, because this is what we usually expect, but
there absence could be justified in some exceptional cases (like the
aforementioned).
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Re: [Tagging] How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Apr. 2024 um 09:47 Uhr schrieb Jo :

> I was wondering about that myself. They seem to be 'long' steps. So a
> horse wouldn't have too much trouble with them.
>



there is this property which might be applying:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:flat_steps
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Re: [Tagging] How to Tag Steps in a Bridleway

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am So., 28. Apr. 2024 um 16:40 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend :

> Assuming we're talking about something that's signed as a "Public
> Bridleway" in England and Wales*, then at the most basic level there are
> two tags to consider:
>
>- highway=steps
>- designation=public_bridleway
>
> The first of those says that there are some steps.  There's no other way
> of doing that; there are steps, so highway=steps it is.
>


actually there would be an alternative, although it is not used so often:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abarrier%3Dstep
I agree highway=steps is probably the most supported way to tag it.
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - works:type and works:process

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28 Apr 2024, at 19:58, Daniel Evans  wrote:
> I've seen "industry=" proposed/discussed before, with the big problem that 
> it's very close to the existing "industrial" tag, and it would likely be too 
> confusing if they had different meanings (one for land use, one for 
> individual facilities). I'd wonder how many existing "industry=" tags are 
> mis-tags of "industrial=".


works could describe the type of plant, e.g. works=sawmill, oil_refinery, 
manufacturing (and you add product), brewery, printing, brickyard,  
slaughterhouse, …

industry would be about the industry, but it could also get another name, there 
isn’t actually too much confusion in the values: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/industry#values
especially for an undocumented tag (admittedly only few usage), compared to 
industrial:
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - works:type and works:process

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27 Apr 2024, at 10:55, Daniel Evans  wrote:
> 
> works:industry= is an option which is much clearer about exactly what the tag 
> means. Does that sound good to you?


it is fine, maybe also just “industry”? There are a few hundred of them but not 
so much with works: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/industry#values

No page in the wiki so far, I think this would be suitable to accomodate in a 
works proposal, or maybe I can see the advantage of works:industry not having 
any usage so far, but it is a bit unwieldy and ultimately it is the same kind 
of industry “property” that would be useful for other contexts/feature tags as 
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

apart from the usefulness in routing  (as there aren’t alternatives it doesn’t 
matter for routing if a road on antarctica is unclassified or primary, and 
usual time estimates would generally not be useful in this particular context 
and also likely more depend on the vehicle than the “road”), the scarcity of 
the grid which doesn’t allow for relative comparisons, I would tend to upgrade 
rather than downgrade, because the very few routes which connect something 
across significant parts of the continent, cannot be seen as insignificant as a 
tertiary function. Tertiary requires that there is also a primary somewhere, in 
the region (while this argument by itself could maybe also lead to many other 
“main” roads on small islands being considered primary, I think length also has 
to weigh in), in the case of the South Pole Traverse it is 1600km not 
comparable to any tertiary road.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Direct reduced iron plants

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26 Apr 2024, at 14:34, Daniel Evans  wrote:
> 
> Thanks. I have been partly lost between some competing (but perhaps poorly 
> supported) proposals which suggested more focus on making the `industrial=` 
> tag more detailed. I'll give some thought to what a sequence of `works:x` 
> tags might look like.


yes, I am aware of these proposals, and frankly I can also not tell which ideas 
have more support, but I think we should generally aim to keep the meaning of 
keys consistent, because it makes life for everyone easier when there is some 
kind of logical structure behind and not just individual meaning for key-value 
pairs, e.g. the distinction of features and properties. We can have 
man_made=bridge (feature) as an object and highway=* with bridge=yes 
additionally, without violating the one feature one element rule, because the 
bridge=yes on the highway isn’t a bridge, it is a property of the highway that 
it is on a bridge. Several bridge=yes highways can be on the same one bridge, 
because you cannot count bridges by counting bridge attributes. Similarly 
counting landuse polygons does not make sense, because landuse is a property of 
the land (speaking about built up landuse and military which can be both, here 
are competing ideas around, e.g. by adding names to landuse polygons, with 
different meaning e.g. development, or settlement part like quarter, or 
individual properties and installations, thereby reading the landuse tag as 
feature tag, personally I don’t think it is a good idea because it limits the 
detail level of landuse mapping to the scale at which the feature is located, 
so the bigger it is (like a whole village or residential area, etc.) the 
likelier it is a problem).
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Re: [Tagging] Direct reduced iron plants

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26 Apr 2024, at 13:11, Daniel Evans  wrote:
> 
> It sounds like your feeling is that the tagging of industrial sites should be 
> closer to power=plant and the associated plant:x tags.



I say it already is like this. The meaning of landuse=industrial is land used 
for industrial purposes. If you add something like industrial=steelmaking or 
steel_mill or steel etc. to it, it means steel industry. It doesn’t say this is 
a steel plant, rather grounds used for the steel industry (there are steel 
mills but it doesn’t say if there’s one, two or even more).
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Re: [Tagging] Direct reduced iron plants

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26 Apr 2024, at 09:30, Daniel Evans  wrote:
> 
> Differentiating with different `product=` values doesn't seem sensible - both 
> types of works "produce steel", and getting into specific types of steel 
> doesn't help. The two `landuse=industrial + industrial=x` tags do allow that 
> differentiation. Is there any existing or proposed tagging scheme under 
> `man_made=works` to encode that level of detail?


the landuse tagging isn’t suitable to describe features, it is about landuse. 
An area with different steel producing works could be tagged all on the same 
polygon, while man_made=works is about an individual factory. If details are 
missing for meaningful distinctions of man_made=works tagging it can be 
introduced.
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25 Apr 2024, at 09:51, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> 
> By established conventions of functional road tagging in OSM these would 
> almost all be service roads (no through-traffic to other destinations than 
> the ones the route ends at).


this is also the case with some motorways leading to airports for example, the 
“no through-traffic to other destinations than the ones the route ends 
at”-property does not automatically equate to highway=service.
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

to be more concrete, I think for an important link like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole_Traverse
highway=primary would be appropriate.
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Re: [Tagging] Highway classification in Antarctica

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 24. Apr. 2024 um 16:33 Uhr schrieb Fernando Trebien <
fernando.treb...@gmail.com>:

> As Antarctica is international space,[1] I understand that, in
> principle, the highway classification scheme of no particular country
> applies there.



Generally, highway classification is not done based on a particular
country's classification scheme.



> For a while, I tried to come up with a balanced generic
> scheme based on the regional importance of these roads,[2] which has
> been questioned,[3] so I would like to hear opinions on the matter.
>
> Should the classification of highways in Antarctica:
>
> 1. Follow country-specific conventions near stations? This can lead to
> different classifications for long polar traverses maintained by
> different countries and can create disconnected road networks (in
> terms of classification) between nearby stations operated by different
> countries.
>
> 2. Follow generic OSM definitions based on absolute population
> thresholds of the places they connect? (10k+ people for town, 1k for
> village, 100 for hamlet, etc.) This will assign very low road classes
> across the continent.
>
> 3. Follow generic OSM definitions based on lower place population
> thresholds that are more compatible with the reality of the continent,
> based on regional importance? [4] The result may be perceived by some
> as assigning higher than normal highway classes to the connections
> between these small settlements.
>
> Additionally, should the permanent population be considered (zero in
> most cases, which is the case even for larger stations, further
> lowering highway classification), or the average occupancy of the
> stations?



generally, we are not interested in citizenship or official population
count but rather in actual population. The highway class should reflect the
"importance" of the road for the (regional) grid. With a peak population
(presence) of about 5000 people, I would not expect a lot of traffic
anywhere. On the other hand, given the few roads and harsh conditions, I
could imagine that the existing roads could be considered quite
"important", regardless of the few traffic.

After all, it doesn't really matter as the conditions and context are
pretty unique and not comparable with the rest of the world anyway,
especially the part for which the existing applications are built.
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Re: [Tagging] traffic_signs: human readable values vs. ISO and law codes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Apr. 2024 um 12:33 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel :

>
> It seems really obvious that normalized osm words and CC:codepoint are
> different things and belong in different keys.
>


they are both ways to refer to a traffic sign, you do not have to know they
are "CC:codepoint" values, you can just treat them as opaque strings (and
synonyms for normalized osm words where it is the case). If a country
specific maxspeed sign has a specific meaning in this country, the
"normalized osm words" would have to deal with the same issue (there would
have to be a specific normalized osm word for this case).



>
> Part of the point is that renderers (including routing engines) and
> humans want to see a value that can be interpreted regardless of country
> and without having to know that country's laws.
>


traffic signs do not make sense if you do not know the law, they are all
about law. This said, all you need is equivalence lists, this may be
onerous, but it is no different if the CC:codepoint value is tagged with a
specific key like traffic_sign:id or if it is tagged with "traffic_sign".
Either you know what the code stands for, or you cannot use the
information.
Maybe the desire is that people would add both tags, a specific "encoded"
and a generic "human readable" one, but it doesn't seem likely this will
happen, also because we already tag the meaning of the sign with different
tags (not as a sign, but as properties on the road), so the whole point of
tagging signs is not changing the way the data is interpreted, it is a
source why something was mapped as it was mapped, and it is an inventory
where which traffic sign is located.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] traffic_signs: human readable values vs. ISO and law codes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15 Apr 2024, at 07:37, yo paseopor  wrote:
> 
> It is not a big problem...except they are using the same key.


it is not a problem, as long as the values describe a traffic sign. It means 
parsing doesn’t become even slightly more laborious, as a datauser you have to 
parse the values all in one key and not in 2, as you propose, but ultimately 
it’s about the same work, and the same information is given.
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Re: [Tagging] The reason to not use loc_name is far too subjective.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27 Mar 2024, at 20:36, Dave F via Tagging  
> wrote:
> 
> what determines the cut off point for a name being too "slangy"?


the “what” is harder to generalize, but the “who” is pretty clear: the local 
mapper decides this
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Re: [Tagging] shops for display

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22 Nov 2023, at 18:33, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would consider it more as device than showroom


can you provide a dictionary definition for “device” that could refer to a 
room? Because the ones I looked at wouldn’t fit.

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Re: [Tagging] shops for display

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 22. Nov. 2023 um 17:12 Uhr schrieb Anne- Karoline Distel
:
>
> My case was where you can't enter the premises, it's really just displaying 
> goods or even (slightly different) displaying contact details for the 
> business which has moved to the outskirts of town.


yes, your thread was somehow "hi-jacked" because we discovered we
might also need tagging for showrooms. I think the best solution for
your situation is no shop and maybe some advertising=* tag
Actually "advertising" says it is for advertising devices, and your
situation isn't a device I guess, so maybe it is a showroom without
admittance?

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Re: [Tagging] shops for display

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Nov 2023, at 21:42, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> With more stuff being sold online, we will probably see more showrooms,
> and I think we should have a way to tell users if they can buy anything
> at a shop, or it is just a showroom


yes, this is a good idea. The original question was different though, as from 
what I understood the shop was closed, you could only look from the outside, 
this is a different situation from a showroom where you can enter (and possibly 
try the product, talk to staff etc.)
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Re: [Tagging] shops for display

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Nov 2023, at 12:47, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> The wiki for Tesla says that Tesla showrooms are tagged shop=car
> A lot of shop=kitchen are really showrooms where you can order a
> kitchen which will be installed in you kitchen. The shop do not actually
> have kitchens for sale in the store.


„ordering“ a kitchen or car in a shop is a sale, IMHO. The word sale does not 
imply you take the goods away with you immediately, nor that they are 
necessarily present at the point of sale.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shops for display

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20 Nov 2023, at 20:59, Anne-Karoline Distel  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> is there a way to tag shops that are not used for selling goods
> directly, but are just used for display for the actual shop or even to
> advertise something different? Here in Ireland, I think they are often
> used to hide the fact that it's actually a vacant premises, and rates
> are also different, I believe, if you're not actually conducting
> business there. Would "shop=display_only" be a way to do it? I would
> still like to have an option to mark them as vacant,  in a way.
> 
> They could be using the space inside to display their goods or even just
> have the windows covered in decals to advertise that they have moved or
> to advertise local sights or whatever.


according to the wiki a shop is selling goods or services, if they don’t do 
either it’s not a shop for OpenStreetMap.

Cheers Martin 
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[Tagging] voting for highway=ladder has ended

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Hi,

just a short headsup that voting is ended now, the proposal was
approved with 95% of votes:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Ladders

I have created a page for the approved feature:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dladder

Cheers,
Martin

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[Tagging] Voting highway=ladder

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Voting is now open for highway=ladder

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Ladders

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: Use description instead of name for route relations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20 Oct 2023, at 10:23, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> maybe just removing this bad advise without proposal would be a good idea

+1
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[Tagging] RFC Ladders

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Please comment on the proposal for highway=ladder
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Ladders
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Millstone

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 27. Sept. 2023 um 10:32 Uhr schrieb Mitchel van Duuren <
mitchelvanduu...@hotmail.com>:

> This proposal suggests the addition of a new tag to represent historic or
> decommissioned millstones found worldwide within the OpenStreetMap
> database: historic=millstone.
>



I think it is generally a good proposal, but what is the difference between
a historic millstone and another millstone? So historic millstones can be
tagged like this even when they are still used, while other millstones get
the tag only if they are decommissioned?
I appreciate you mention man_made=millstone, it has slightly less usage,
but could be an alternative:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=millstone

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - lifecycle prefix vandalised:

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Sep 2023, at 20:25, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> was it deliberately pulled over by a snowmobiler
> (thus, "vandalized:")


if you don’t know it you can remain on the save side and put “destroyed“ 
because this is what you see. It doesn’t mean there aren’t lots of other 
situations where you can be very clear something was deliberately 
destroyed/vandalized
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - lifecycle prefix vandalised:

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Sep 2023, at 14:12, Marc_marc  wrote:
> 
> If you're not there at the precise moment of the change of state,
> the only thing you can see is that the bench is no longer there
> or isn't in a working state anymore


maybe, but there might be other ways to learn how it was damaged, someone could 
tell you, or the type of damage indicates it was vandalized.


> 2 "past" lifecycles seems sufficient to me (was: for when there's nothing 
> left, damaged or equivalent for when there's something non-functional)


was: can also be used for non-physical features (indeed most usage is with 
was:amenity) it doesn’t imply there is nothing left at all. There are already a 
lot of prefixes for similar lifecycle states, e.g. demolished, razed, 
destroyed, abandoned, ruins, from this point of view, “vandalized” would be one 
more, adding another nuance. 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 Sep 2023, at 08:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> foot:oneway=yes / oneway:foot=yes?


as „oneway“ is defined for vehicles only, „oneway:foot“ doesn’t make a lot of 
sense. The wiki suggests „foot:backward“ or „foot:forward“ as alternatives that 
follow the generic way of tagging restrictions.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway#Pedestrians

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Re: [Tagging] cancelling proposal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 6. Sept. 2023 um 19:46 Uhr schrieb Anne-Karoline Distel <
annekadis...@web.de>:

> I've decided to cancel the proposal I started on August 22 in favour of
> using the vending machine option in combination with fee=no instead.



I am thinking about using natural=bay with water=no for some named
geografic areas in the mountains ;-)
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[Tagging] [RFC] Historic main tag for defensive works

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

forwarding by request.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Casper Kersten via OpenStreetMap Community Forum 
> 
> Date: 20 July 2023 at 13:41:38 CEST
> 
> Reply-To: OpenStreetMap Community Forum 
> 
> 
> 
>   Friendly_Ghost Casper Kersten 
> July 20
> Hello friends,
> 
> I wrote a short proposal to add historic=defensive_works as main (top-level) 
> tag to defensive_works=*. Details can be found at Proposal:Historic main tag 
> for defensive works - OpenStreetMap Wiki. All feedback is appreciated. I am 
> not active on the tagging mailing list, so I would appreciate it if someone 
> could share my proposal there.
> 
> Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Wave Lounger

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3 Jul 2023, at 01:27, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> Ah, but is that frame, material or surface? :-)


frankly I believe this level of detail would be overdoing it. Feel free to 
develop any scheme you feel suits well. If I wanted to tag more detail, 
priority would be „material“ and it would refer to the material where you 
sit/lie on. Another approach would be tagging specific or generic models/types 
(similar to how we do it for drinking fountains).
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Wave Lounger

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

https://i.etsystatic.com/26861520/r/il/09aa34/3144992841/il_1140xN.3144992841_ps9i.jpg___
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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Wave Lounger

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2 Jul 2023, at 20:19, Asa Hundert  wrote:
> 
> I'd have to propose to deprecate the uses on areas
> that allows for such atrocities as "amenity=lounger; surface=grass".


I don’t think this would be suitable tagging for a Liegewiese (habe recently 
seen such a sign in the swimming pool, a nicer way to say no ball playing I 
guess). If it were for a lounger with growing grass on it, it would be ok.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26 Jun 2023, at 20:50, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, the Sporting Goods Retailers subindustry in NAICS 
> includes "gun shops".


what’s the category for multi role combat aircraft or heavy battletanks? 


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Re: [Tagging] Tag which restaurant or cafe allows bringing your own food or drink?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25 Jun 2023, at 18:11, Timeo Gut  wrote:
> 
> Other than the obvious yes/no we should also have a value to indicate that a 
> place generally allows outside food but charges a fee for bringing particular 
> items.



this is something typical also in Italy: people bring the dessert (cake), and 
restaurants have policies if and how it is ok / whether you have to pay a fee 
(on the other hand I agree with Frederik that this may not be constant but 
depend on lots of soft factors).

There are also places like the German Biergarten, where you can/could bring 
your food but will buy the local wine there (fraschetta). Actually today, all 
of these places will also sell food, and only some are ok if you bring your 
own, there’s a wikipedia article about it in Italian: 
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraschetta
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24 Jun 2023, at 00:29, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
> 
> But if we focus too pedantically on legal status at the expense of common 
> sense, then we've reinvented designation=*, and mappers and data consumers 
> have to find yet another key to express what could've been in highway=*.


oh yes, absolutely, if legal status and common sense/reality are not congruent 
we should record both.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23 Jun 2023, at 16:13, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
>   My point is that a tag defines a semantic concept and that we should strive 
> to have it mean that concept everywhere.   That is the point, so that data 
> consumers can use it.


agreed. The problems for example arise because sometimes essential things are 
not explicitly defined as people take them for granted (the definitions are 
just more English words), and then it turns out, different properties have been 
taken for granted or not be considered.


Let’s have a look at basic concepts that occur around the world, e.g. food 
provision. If you don’t produce your own food, or go foraging, hunting or 
fishing, you’ll have to buy it. Generic food buying places in osm are markets 
and street vendors (let’s ignore the latter for this time as they don’t occur 
everywhere), convenience stores and supermarkets. The market term is a huge 
umbrella and can accommodate lots of different kinds of places (if you look 
into more detail than just “market”) so we won’t have a problem at this level 
of specificity, but defining a semantic difference of convenience store and 
supermarket regardless of local customs seems impossible.


The wiki says for convenience store:
“ A convenience shop is a small local shop carrying a variety of everyday 
products, such as packaged food and hygiene products”

While this might seem a good description of a convenience store, it still isn’t 
a real definition that would exclude all other shops that aren’t. it doesn’t 
say there must be food, e.g. a shop selling clothing, hygiene products and 
newspapers would also fit.

There is also a longer text, full definition says: “ A convenience shop, also 
known as a convenience store or mini-mart: A small local shop carrying a 
variety of everyday products, mostly including single-serving food items such 
as milk, bread, snacks, groceries to over-the-counter medications, household 
items, stationery, and small auto supplies such as fuses. 
They may be part of a chain - 7-Eleven (US, Japan, Europe, Australia) and 
AM/PM, Wawa (US) - or locally owned. In the USA, they're also sometimes 
referred to as a bodega or a corner store.”


This is not a definition (and not an exception, I bet the tag definition for 
“building” says it is about a building but does not exactly define what a 
building is). You can not decide whether a shop is a convenience shop with 
these descriptions, rather you have to know what a convenience shop is in order 
to use it correctly.
For example the first paragraph says: mostly including …small auto supplies 
such as fuses. - I am willing to believe this is the case somewhere, but I have 
never seen a convenience store selling auto supplies, should I never have used 
the tag then? Or is it just an example and it is fine when auto supplies are 
missing, or single serving milk? What is required as a minimum, what is 
indispensable? Could this be defined with semantics for a global application? 
Yes, we should strive to clearly define semantic concepts, but we are often 
very far, we do things by local accustoms and agreements and common (hopefully, 
mostly/often) understanding of single words we use as tag names, in English ;-)___
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 22. Juni 2023 um 14:41 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel :

>
> Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that
> primarly sells sausages.  We wouldn't say that this should be
> amenity=bakery.



this is why we have agreed to use English words. A "bakery" in English is a
place that primarily sells bread (and other baked stuff, at least
generally), so if some other language used the same letters for a word
"bakery" which had a different meaning, it could not be the one intended in
OSM because we use English.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 22. Juni 2023 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Brian M. Sperlongano <
zelonew...@gmail.com>:

>
> yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs
>> rather than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and
>> feels like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries)
>
>
> Iknow you said 'usually' but this sounds like a very European perspective
> to me.  We have no such distinction in the US. I've learned on this project
> to be quite careful about projecting what we think to be a normal structure
> onto other locations in the world.  In the US it's a motorway if it's
> physically constructed like one, and there's many edge cases that we
> scratch our heads on.
>


I believe the US is an exception then, at least the current wiki confirms
what I wrote (and in this case I didn't write it myself ;-) ) , from
highway=motorway:

Typically highway =motorway
should be *used only on roads with control of access
*, or selected
roads with limited access
 depending on the local
context and prevailing convention.

Generally roads with control of access
 are proclaimed in
government documents, and have an official status as a controlled access
road, sometimes this can include the term motorway, freeway or expressway
among others in the road name. These kinds of roads usually have a special
designation by the law, with a set of laws specifically applied on them.
Generally some restrictions are placed on the kind of vehicles or traffic
which can be on roads which should be classed as highway
=motorway, such as no
pedestrians, bicycles, livestock, horses and so on.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22 Jun 2023, at 00:43, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Generally, yes, I'd however not invoke the law at this point - I'd say a 
> shop=firearms is whatever locals would call a firearms shop, if that term is 
> used locally.


agreed


> 
> Generally speaking I object to an one-size-fits-all approach to tagging. 
> Instead of defining that in order to be a shop=bakery something must fulfil 
> the following 5 criteria (which can amount to cultural imperialism) I'd 
> rather say that a shop=bakery is whatever the locals call a bakery.


when they don’t speak English and have different types of „bakeries“, things 
become more complicated though. If you ask locals about a „bakery“ it may 
depend what word(s) your dictionary translates it to, whether they‘d consider 
it such.


> 
> And highway classification is maybe not the best example, because it is 
> generally agreed that the legal status of a road is not the sole deciding 
> factor when it comes to which highway=* we map it as. A road that is 
> secondary by law but primary in practice, will often be tagged primary.


yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs rather 
than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and feels 
like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Jun 2023, at 15:52, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms".   This is a
> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.


I am not sure I can subscribe to this. Generally our tags are used when the 
thing meets the local expectations of “such thing”, e.g. an amenity=cafe or 
amenity=pub in England is probably different from places with such a tag in 
Germany. Or a shop=bakery in England will not necessarily sell the same kind of 
bread than one in France.

There is a point where the differences are so big that we decide to introduce a 
new tag (or subtag), but in a case like the arms shop I believe the most likely 
answer for OpenStreetMap is actually "a shop that sells whatever the local law 
means by firearms", just like a highway=motorway is “a highway that the local 
law means by motorway”.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Jun 2023, at 13:10, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I note the absence of 'fire' in the above definitions. Explosions can be had 
> from compressed gas


doesn’t seem to cover electromagnetic weapons, or does it?
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Re: [Tagging] navigational aid relation

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Sa., 17. Juni 2023 um 21:48 Uhr schrieb Minh Nguyen <
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us>:

> You're quite fortunate that the meaning of an address is unambiguous in
> Italy. At least you can be sure that a pedestrian route will lead to the
> main entrance, even if other modes aren't as well-served.



actually the real situation in Italy is more complicated than the theory.
For one, because the reality doesn't always follow the legal prescriptions
(every entrance to a building or site should get a housenumber according to
the law, i.e. also small gates leading to the garden, or similar), but
sometimes no housenumber is posted (maybe not assigned, maybe not displayed
by the owner, but either way not compatbile with the law), and sometimes,
"old" housenumbers (where there used to be a door but is now closed) are
still posted. And the law also declares that "potential" entrances should
get their own numbers, this refers mostly to shop windows, i.e. many
housenumbers are not assigned to a place where you can currently enter the
building/site.

As a result, many businesses and homes have more than one housenumber.
Adresses always are assigned to points and never directly to buildings
(although one could say a "buillding has several housenumbers" if you look
at the collection of numbers that lead to the building, and POIs usually
either indicate a of their housenumbers, or use the one that is actually
usable,  or sometimes use one that is now a closed door (e.g. because it is
their official address where they have registered the business).

You cannot assume that where a housenumber is posted this means access for
pedestrians, because "vehicle only" access points also get housenumbers
(AFAIK).


Here in the U.S., the meaning of an address depends on who's using it.
> To the tax authorities, it refers to the whole parcel. To emergency
> responders, it's either the building or the beginning of the driveway.
> To the postal service, it's the mailbox, which can be at the door, at
> the street curb, or even at the neighborhood entrance.
>


This is probably how these are effectively interpretated / used. If the
number refers to the whole parcel (tax), isn't this then a valid point of
view for emergency responders as well? Won't they help you on every spot of
the parcel, or do they require you go either into the building or to the
beginning of the driveway before they will rescue you?



>
> Mappers here generally treat the address as an attribute of a building,
> POI, or something else. [1]



in Italy, we also treat the address as an attribute of a POI -
additionally, because from all the possible (assigned) addresses, there
will often be a principal / official one which the business uses in their
communications (this is somehow disputed in the community, some people do
not want to "duplicate" addresses, so they add the poi information on the
entrance node, which is not fully correct obviously, because the POI is
usually inside and not on the perimeter, and the entrance is not the same
as the POI so it goes against the one object one element rule. We never use
addresses on buildings though.



> So the address point's coordinates don't
> necessarily have any relation to where you would navigate to.



IMHO this is a problem, the addresses we add should indeed have a relation
with where they are assigned to. A postbox with an address that is not on
the site where the address belongs to, should not get "addr:*" tags of the
far away place. There is "contact:street", "contact:housenumber" and others
to add addresses that are elsewhere, as referers.



>
> This is another good reason why I'd advocate for objectively
> micromapping features that data consumers (whether routers or geocoders)
> could recognize as navigable points or not, depending on the situation.
>


+1

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What separator do you use for multiple value

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15 Jun 2023, at 09:41, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 14.06.2023 um 11:26 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>> ...for housenumbers periods are an alternative to semicolons. 
> You probably wanted to write "commas", periods are not in use as separators 
> for house numbers. See 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#Buildings_with_multiple_house_numbers
> 


yes indeed wanted to write commas, thank you for correcting, 
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Re: [Tagging] What separator do you use for multiple value

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14 Jun 2023, at 11:15, _ _  wrote:
> 
> What separator do you use, and what advantage do they have over the others?


the semicolon is standard for most cases, for multilingual names dashes and 
slashes are in use, for housenumbers periods are an alternative to semicolons.
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Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10 Jun 2023, at 17:58, Anne-Karoline Distel  wrote:
> 
> I don't know if
> wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for example, which
> IMHO it shouldn't be


agreed. One tag I am aware of in this context is memorial=ghost_bike
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/memorial=ghost_bike#overview___
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bbq without grill/grate ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10 Jun 2023, at 00:13, Matija Nalis  
> wrote:
> 
> I think in such vandalized case it would be better tagged as
> disused:amenity=bbq or abandoned:amenity=bbq


there is also fireplace as tag
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Re: [Tagging] Coach parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9 Jun 2023, at 12:56, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The difference between a coach and a bus?
> 
> A 'coach' is intended for long distance transport - so more comfortable, 
> provision for luggage and possibly an on board toilet.


yes, but this is a distinction like a car vs. a station wagon, a coach is a 
kind of bus and the differences (internally/design/features) are not relevant 
for the traffic rules. 
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Re: [Tagging] Coach parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9 Jun 2023, at 12:04, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> I can't find it either.  I remembered that JOSM presets have a lot more
> detail than the wiki.  But I checked, and I don't see anything about
> "coaches" (which I think is the word in EU for what we Yanks would call
> "bus", a large vehicle that can transport say 40 people).


there is tourist_bus (a bus class  vehicle which is not a psv).
In the EU a bus is a motor vehicle with more than 8+1 seats

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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Extended playground equipment

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27 May 2023, at 08:45, Alex  wrote:
> 
> As a group of mappers who regularly map playgrounds, we are proposing more 
> values to the list of documented playground equipment to better map typical 
> devices that had no documented value before.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Extended_playground_equipment


I welcome more tag definitions for specific features. Generally I don’t think 
using “playground” as key for playground equipment was a good choice (one would 
usually expect in OpenStreetMap that it is a key for types of playgrounds), but 
this is not an objection to this proposal, as it only adds more value 
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Re: [Tagging] Picnic_table with barbecue table extension.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22 May 2023, at 20:06, Dave F via Tagging  
> wrote:
> 
> I've a leisure=picnic_table but has an extended table top made of metal to 
> accommodate disposable barbecues.
> 
> Can anybody recommend a sub-tag that's more descriptive than barbecue=yes?


for the avoidance of doubt you could add barbecue_grill=no as you’ll have to 
bring your own if I understood it well, or could you just light a fire on the 
metal plate?
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/barbecue_grill#overview

The barbecue tag is not really used a lot and some values indicate a type of 
barbecue grill https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/barbecue#overview

There is more use for “bbq” but it is defined as “a bbq grill is available” 
(property) https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bbq#overview

I’d use a more specific tag for this feature, or maybe a generic property like 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 1 - toilets wheelchair extra tags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 16. Mai 2023 um 13:33 Uhr schrieb :

> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> As promised I will make separate emails with our tagging questions and
> proposals that we want to add to OSM for our app.
>
> With our On Wheels app we give more objective information to wheelchair
> users about dimensions of the entrance, toilet,
>
> Elevator, …
>
>
>
> *Toilets:wheelchair*
>
>
>
> toilets:wheelchair_door_width(for the door width of the
> toilet)
>


is this a summary of all doors you will encounter on your way to the toilet
(which way?) or is it specifically about the toilet door, regardless of
other doors? Any bigger toilets use to have at least 2 doors, one leading
to the sinks and another one for the "cabin".



> toilets:wheelchair_space_side   (for the space next to the
> toilet)
>
toilets:wheelchair_space_front (for the space in front of
> the toilet)
>


is it a width for all the room height (until where? 2m? 1,50?) or only for
heights where it may be conflicting with wheelchairs? If the latter, for
what kind of wheelchair / which height?


hand_basin:wheelchair(for a wheelchair
> accessible hand basin, answer with yes/no)
>


how is this going to be defined / which are the required dimensions and
spaces?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tag government equals emergency defintion

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15 May 2023, at 09:18, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tag it with office=government + government=emergency. "
> 
> 
> One of 'my' cases are "Fire Control Centres" where directions are given to 
> bush fire fighters in the field.
> 
> Thoughts???


I think this would still be quite generic tagging for an entity that only deals 
with fire control. There are already some tags in use for some emergency 
related features, e.g. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency_service%3Dtechnical

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dses_station



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Re: [Tagging] Help with new tags about wheelchair

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8 May 2023, at 10:39, Sebastian Felix Zappe  
> wrote:
> 
> For example, a door width or step count should be tagged on the node that 
> represents the entrance door, not the café PoI node inside the building (or 
> worse, the building polygon)


but this requires to connect the entrance to the poi. There are several ways to 
do it, mapping the shop as polygon and having the entrance as part of its 
outline is one, you could also rely merely on a common address (same 
housenumber on entrance and poi) where this is possible (entrance has its own 
housenumber), or have a relation to connect an entrance to a poi node, but 
while I agree that all of these would add more detail, they also add more 
complexity. My preferred ways would be same housenumber (or more specific 
address component) if possible, or the poi as a polygon solution (which also 
has additional benefits but expects that the mapper is able to estimate the 
extent and shape).

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] roof:shape=pitched imprecise value ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20 Apr 2023, at 22:04, Marc_marc  wrote:
> 
> is roof:shape=pitched an imprecise value ?


as you ask about imprecise, what about “round” or “many”?
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/roof:shape#values___
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Re: [Tagging] roof:shape=pitched imprecise value ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24 Apr 2023, at 16:03, Timothy Noname  wrote:
> 
> Probably a tagging error by someone who doesn't know the correct tags like 
> skillion and gabled.


it’s probably a skillion roof, single pitch, wouldn’t expect a gabled or hipped 
roof, but who knows. It isn’t an “error”, it’s an undocumented value, probably 
an alternative to something established ;-)
Unless we know there is a more established tag for it, we better not touch it.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=screenprinting

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Apr 2023, at 16:26, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> shop=printing_on_objects ? seems more clear than shop=screenprinting


screenprinting is about the specific technique, in Polish I think it is 
Druk sitowy 

I think if the shop is specialized in this kind of printing the shop type could 
be ok, although I would have preferred to have it as a subtag for shop=printing 
which apparently has a confused definition since it was created in 2013: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dprinting&oldid=943622

while there may be some overlap of shops providing both, generally the 
difference of a copyshop and a print shop is the different printing process.
“documents” as a requirement is unfortunate because it excludes a lot of 
similar shops like poster printing, printing on textiles, printing on mugs etc. 
(but maybe in reality doesn’t exclude so many as they might also print 
“documents” if you ask for it). 

Ultimately if you are looking for a print shop you might be interested to know 
which kind of machines they are using (capacity, sizes, print process 
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between graffiti and mural

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Apr 2023, at 01:08, António Madeira  wrote:
> 
> The question is: is it relevant?



no, it is not the question, the requirement is: does it exist?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging type of ownership of a road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16 Apr 2023, at 23:28, Jens Glad Balchen via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> If the operator tag is missing and the owner tag is present, isn't it the 
> general assumption that the owner is also the operator -- i.e. that the owner 
> information is a relevant substitute for the operator information that you 
> don't have?


yes, if you don’t have an operator tag looking at potential owner tags could 
make sense. In the reality of tagging, it is much more likely you encounter the 
opposite case, in combination with “highway” there are about 100k instances of 
owner and ownership and similar tags while there are 1,4M operator combinations.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/highway#overview___
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between graffiti and mural

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am So., 16. Apr. 2023 um 17:29 Uhr schrieb Daniel Capilla <
dcapil...@gmail.com>:

> On 4/16/23 at 16:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > nobody has yet responded to the question about scratchings
>
> The wiki says that "A mural is any piece of artwork painted or applied
> directly on a wall, ceiling or other large permanent surface".
>
> IMHO scratchings could be considered murals according to the wiki
> guidelines.



IMHO according to the current guidelines not, but they should be amended.
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between graffiti and mural

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

nobody has yet responded to the question about scratchings, similarly here
is an article about a monumental and recognized artwork created by
cleaning: https://publicdelivery.org/william-kentridge-rome/
The article calls it a "mural" in the title, in osm it wouldn't currently
be, because our definition requires it is "painted or applied directly on a
wall, ceiling or other large permanent surface.", i.e. it doesn't cover the
case of creating an image through removing.
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between graffiti and mural

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

typically a graffiti could also be considered a mural, but there are exceptions 
like scratched artwork, e.g. 
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=graffiti+scratching&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images___
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Re: [Tagging] Disambiguation between statue and sculptural group

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9 Apr 2023, at 10:46, Daniel Capilla  wrote:
> 
> I propose to update the documentation to differentiate between 
> "artwork_type=statue" (sculpture of one person/animal) and 
> "artwork_type=sculptural_group" (sculpture of group representing two or more 
> people/animals).


generally I agree but there might be exceptions where a statue consists of more 
than one person _or_ animal, e.g. equestrian statues (a person sitting on a 
horse), maybe also a person sitting on top of another person/being carried? 
Maybe generally a person can have an animal with them and still be considered a 
statue, e.g. girl with a monkey sitting on her shoulder, or man with his dog?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging type of ownership of a road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

We're ocassionally using "operator" around here to mark who is comissioned
with the maintenance of parts of roads, it is different from ownership I
agree (generally it depends on the country how and on whom public property
is registered, and which kind of property is registered how (buildings vs.
roads, local vs. national etc.), and this may also change from time to time
based on political decisions and changes in the structure of the
administration).
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging type of ownership of a road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13 Apr 2023, at 09:04, Jens Glad Balchen via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> I couldn't find an official way to capture this information in OSM.
> Is there one?


you could use the operator tag (although it doesn’t relate to ownership, it is 
about the entity in charge of maintenance, and there could be several different 
entities on a specific level, e.g. two entities in charge of national highways)
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Re: [Tagging] incubator for the birth of chicks

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20 Mar 2023, at 17:26, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> landuse=farmyard
> farmyard=poultry
> commodity=chicks


there is already some use of animal_breeding=poultry which seems a suitable tag:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/animal_breeding=poultry

commodity is not in use (well, 1 instance there is), maybe “poultry“ could be 
an additional key here? Also produce=live_animal is among the higher ranking 
produce values, produce=chicken has about 70 uses (counting multiple values as 
well): https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/produce#values

livestock also has some (few) use: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/livestock#values

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Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - landcover proposal V2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

landcover=mud? Can you explain where this is expected to be a permanent
condition? Maybe wasteland with soil pollution that prevents things from
growing?
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Re: [Tagging] Slate roof tiles

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13 Mar 2023, at 21:03, Timothy Noname  wrote:
> 
> Every source I've seen indicates that slate is a type of roof tile and that 
> roof tiles don't need to interlock to be roof tiles.


yes, it depends on the tiles whether they interlock, old types often don’t, 
like https://oldantique.eu/2018/05/handstrich-biberschwanzziegel-ca-37x155x15cm/___
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Re: [Tagging] Rail replacement bus service

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 10. März 2023 um 11:35 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> Drives like a bus, uses roads like a bus .. it is a bus. There are a few
> permanent ones in my State run by the railways people (usually
> contracted to a local firm) and I'd map them as a bus route.
>



I agree, these just get blocked in the traffic like any other road based
vehicle, not comparable in any way to the railbased routes they are
replacing (usually for construction work, or short term in case of special
events like police action, fire, bomb alerts, etc.), or comparable only
that they have to face the same amount of passengers as the trains and
therefor tend to be overcrowded :)

I agree with the thread starter that an attribute like
"rail_replacement_service=yes" seems a good way to go, if we map these at
all. From my experience in Berlin and in opposition to what was stated
above, these are not "permanent", but they can last for several years.
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Re: [Tagging] Wall gardens as ways?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1 Mar 2023, at 07:26, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> However https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:garden:type says that it 
> can't be used for ways though?


this doesn’t mean it can’t be used on ways it means it typically isn’t. You can 
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Sa., 25. Feb. 2023 um 23:50 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> I guess that you can argue that fresh pasta is subtype of dumpling
> ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumpling ) or that dumplings are subtype
> of fresh pasta.
>
>

yes, I'd say the latter



> still tagging shop selling pierogi (that require heating/boiling to be
> eaten)
> as shop=pasta seems alien to me and I would prefer something else
>


you could have pasta=pierogi, note that a shop=pasta sells raw pasta which
has to be cooked at home.

(I would tag them with more generic fitting value and add this info as
> additional tag, say shop=cheese cheese=oscypek )
>

exactly
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I'm moving this to tagging.

Am Sa., 25. Feb. 2023 um 22:04 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
t...@openstreetmap.org>:

> Shops selling pierogi are definitely not shop=pasta
>


compare these pictures,

pierogi: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pierogi_z_cebulk%C4%85.jpg
pasta:
https://blog.giallozafferano.it/ilpeperonerosso/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/IMG_2133-768x576.jpg

maybe it should be shop=noodles? I had tagged a pasta shop with noodles,
but when I checked in taginfo I saw there were only 3 others, but more than
600 shop=pasta so I changed the tag.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=trailhead

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I believe setting up voting to approve a tag with "de-facto"-status is a
waste of time, particularly if you do not intend to refine the definition,
and an approval will only "downgrade" the tag from "de-facto" to
"approved". People have already voted on the tag by using it thousands of
times.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=trailhead

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 24. Feb. 2023 um 10:49 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson <
pelder...@gmail.com>:

> Sorry, I wasn't clear. The current status of the tag is de facto (was: in
> use, but someone, not me, amended that).  The proposal intends to alter
> that from de facto to approved, by voting.
>
> Fr gr Peter Elderson
>


are you going to change the definition with the vote? Let's imagine you
start a voting for the exact same text as is now on the tag definition
page.
If it wins it will change the tag status from "de-facto" to "approved". If
it fails, will it change the tag status from "de-facto" to what? Strictly,
voting is about a proposal, not about "tags" (it is about the
definition/meaning that should be associated to the tags).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=trailhead

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 23. Feb. 2023 um 11:24 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson <
pelder...@gmail.com>:

> I would like to change the status of this established tag to approved. I
> have altered the previous proposal
>  to
> match the established practice.
>
> Any comments are welcome, but please note that I am not proposing changes
> in mapping.
> I have added one rendering suggestion. The original rendering suggestion
> was a hiker symbol, but trailhead nodes can indicate starting points of
> other recreational routes as well: bicycle/mtb, canoo, horse.
> I have posted this RFC to the new forum
> 
> as well.
>



would there be opposition to change it to "de-facto"?
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 Feb 2023, at 12:06, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
> 
> They aren't wetlands as they aren't wet all the time.


for wetlands is isn’t a requirement they be wet all the time, the first 
sentence in the OpenStreetMap definition is: “ A wetland is a land area that is 
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Re: [Tagging] key covered=* applied to storage tanks

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2 Feb 2023, at 16:04, Marc_marc  wrote:
> 
> I thought there were only open-top tanks


there are but they are called basin or reservoir, we also have 
landuse=reservoir as its own tag (although that’s landuse tagging, not 
countable features, effectively the tag is usually used on individual features)
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Re: [Tagging] tagging the diameter of a mini-roundabout

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2 Feb 2023, at 04:34, Matija Nalis  
> wrote:
> 
> If the actual issue is that HGV cannot pass some road, why not simply mark it 
> as 
> `hgv=no`?


because hgv=no means forbidden to hgv (vehicles which may weight more than 
2.8t).

There are a lot of different sizes for hgv, weight is not the limiting factor 
in general for curves
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Re: [Tagging] Deprecate sport=cricket_nets

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 31. Jan. 2023 um 11:16 Uhr schrieb Philip Barnes <
p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:

> I am with Dave on this one.
>
> The tag is clear, concise and intuitive.
>
> It says exactly what a map user would expect to find
>
> Changing to practice_pitch with sport=cricket loses the descriptive nature
> of the current tag. It just becomes where cricket is practiced instead of
> where there are nets in the real world.
>


practice_pitch is not necessarily the better alternative, it could also be
leisure=cricket_nets.
If "cricket nets" is a sport rather than an infrastructure, it can also
remain under the "sport" tag...
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