Re: [Tagging] war_memorial

2017-10-03 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 10/3/2017 12:26 PM, José G Moya Y. wrote:

+1.
But I wonder if memorial=war_memorial was created with a shape in 
mind, that of large walls with long lists of names on it we see on 
american movies.


(In Spain, collective memorials are either big plaques, statues or 
obelisks. The plaques, typical of the Spanish war of 1936-39, are 
being removed in fulfillment of the Historical Memory Law).


El 3/10/2017 17:16, "Janko Mihelić" <jan...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jan...@gmail.com>> escribió:


uto, 3. lis 2017. u 12:19 Martin Koppenhoefer
<dieterdre...@gmail.com <mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> napisao je:


There also a "topic" key in small use:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/topic#values
<https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/topic#values> maybe
rather than theme it could be "memorial:topic=war"?


Ok, memorial:topic=war.

Is this thread enough to deprecate war_memorial on the wiki? Or
should we first create a new wiki for memorial:topic=*?

I would also bring up the tag subject:wikidata=*, but I'm afraid
the current flames on other threads would spread here :)

Janko

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These other physical types of war memorials (plaques, statues, obelisks) 
are more common in the US than the walls with long lists of names. The 
Vietnam War Memorial is the first one in US history, to my knowledge, to 
list all of the American casualties.


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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out 
hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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Re: [Tagging] tagging two former church locations, with the same name but unrelated to each other

2017-09-30 Thread John F. Eldredge
One location is in operation, one is no longer physically present or 
operating but has a historical marker, and one (the original location of 
the operating church) is missing and has no physical evidence, even a sign, 
at the site.



On September 30, 2017 12:19:31 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:



& I should have added:

& operating?

Thanks

Graeme



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

2017-09-25 Thread John F. Eldredge
Here in Nashville, Tennessee, the state government has a large facility 
called Ellington Agricultural Center 
. It is not an 
agricultural-supply business such as you described, but rather the 
headquarters of the Tennessee Dept. of Agriculture, including offices, a 
museum, an experimental farm, etc. I would not be surprised if there are 
such government agricultural centers elsewhere in the US and around the world.





On September 25, 2017 1:54:55 PM "Mark Bradley" 
 wrote:



In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I'm looking for suggestions on
how to tag these.  A type of landuse?



Mark




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Re: [Tagging] Elevation in Feet as part of Peak Names

2017-09-08 Thread John F. Eldredge
Also, I doubt anyone in ordinary life refers to a mountain as "Mount 
So-and-So 2000 meters", rather than simply "Mount So-and-So".



On September 8, 2017 8:36:52 AM Richard Welty  wrote:


On 9/8/17 7:08 AM, ael wrote:

On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 03:31:37PM -0600, Mike Thompson wrote:

User Raymo853 and I are having a friendly discussion on changeset
50470413[1]. He has been adding the elevation of mountain peaks (in feet)
to the name tag. For example, he changed "Crown Point" to "Crown Point
11,463 ft."[2] While the wiki doesn't specifically address the issue of
elevation as part of a peak name, it does say "Name is the name only"[3].

Could we get feedback from the wider community on this?

+10 for elevation only in the ele tag.

As surveying improves or plate tectonics changes, it would be ridiculous
to change the name rather than just the elevation.

adding the elevation to the name tag makes life far more difficult for data
consumers. don't do it.

richard

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Re: [Tagging] Forestry/logging

2017-04-10 Thread John F. Eldredge
Just because a tract of land is being used for forestry doesn't mean it 
won't have streams on it, and low spots may have ponds.



On April 10, 2017 2:36:20 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:


On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:49 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 

Re: [Tagging] The direction=* tag

2017-03-19 Thread John F. Eldredge
This has the added complication that the way may have two-way traffic, but 
the sign doesn't apply to both directions. In fact, most signs don't apply 
to both sides of a roadway; instead, there will usually be a separate sign 
for both directions of travel.




On March 19, 2017 2:56:02 PM yo paseopor  wrote:



yes, it is important to be able to understand to which way (and traveling
direction) a sign applies, but nodes do not have a forward or backward
direction



but the way the node is in yes it does. Node it is not independent. It is
in a way. with a specific direction (you can revert the direction if you
need it, rivers only flow forward-downward). Wiki says "(i.e., draw the way
in the direction that the river flows)."[1]



, at most they can have an upwards or downwards direction. They also have
a front side and a back side


, but generally I'd assume the tagging is about the front side, without

specifying it.



In OSM mappers assume something until this thing has become more important
and then need to redefine the way the key is applied with subkeys and other
values.Think about bus stops for example [2] [3]...



One way to map the direction in an easy way is to map the sign at the side
of the road.(requires post processing to use the information in a graph
model).



To avoid this complication I can assume the direction of the way the node
it is in. JOSM style recognise it, Kendzi3D plug-in also does with
direction key or :forward/:backward subkey. [4]



For a stop sign you could also make a short way for the part from the stop
line to the actual crossing node, and add stop sign information there
(either with a relation similar to turn restrictions or with direction
dependent tags on the _way_)



Why you accept a line and not a dot in the same place knowing the
information of the way the node it is [5]? Reading OSM wiki Why is possible
to do with traffic lights [6] (you have to put in a way - wiki says "Thus,
because traffic signals can affect routing decisions, it is important that
they are attached to the ways to which they apply, and not placed beside
the way" [5] , you have a specific subkey) or city_limit [7] but not with
the other traffic signs? Do we have to erase and delete all the traffic
signals (907 256) [8] because they are not correct? If we can do with a
traffic light I am sure we can do with other nodes with no lights there but
so important. If traffic signs were not so important governments did not
put in at the roads.

Mapillary and OSC will give us this information through their plug-ins.
Mapillary has a complete scheme of traffic signs recognition [9]. OSC has
an inside editor [10]. Spanish government open a file with more than
500,000 traffic signs relative to the way...and with a specific permission
to use it with OpenStreetMaps [11]. Are we telling other organizations can
give us this data, with this specific information but OSM can't accept it?
Taginfo says it is possible  [12][13]

Salut i senyals de trànsit (Health and traffic signs )
yopaseopor

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driver
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dstop_position
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:
highway%3Dbus_stop==500=history
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/
Extended_traffic_signs_tagging#Renders
[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dstop#How_to_map
[6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%
3Dtraffic_signals#Traffic_signals_for_cars
[7] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_sign%3Dcity_limit
[8] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=highway;
value=traffic_signals
[9] https://www.mapillary.com/developer/api-documentation/#traffic-signs
[10]
http://blog.improve-osm.org/en/2016/11/a-glimpse-into-the-future-of-mapmaking-with-osm-2/
[11]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Resoluci%C3%B3n_se%C3%B1ales_de_tr%C3%A1fico_verticales_RCE.pdf
[12] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/traffic_sign%3Aforward
[13] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/traffic_sign%3Abackward



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Re: [Tagging] water=pool

2017-03-13 Thread John F. Eldredge
At least in American English, there is an intermediate term, pond, for a 
body of water smaller than a lake but larger than a mere wide spot in a 
stream.  Ponds can be man-made or natural.




On March 13, 2017 4:19:47 AM Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:



2017-03-13 10:13 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:


If (when, in Australia) the river stops flowing, these pools become a
water oasis for all.
And if the pool dries up you can dig there for water, if needed.




so where's the distinction to lake? How much is the water flow reduced
there, can you still perceive you're in a river, or is it more like a still
water body with water flowing in and out?

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: [Tagging] Landuse for vacant lots

2017-03-13 Thread John F. Eldredge
Note that cities sometimes also include vacant lots that have not yet been 
built on, particularly around the outer edges. When I was a child, there 
was a vacant lot between our house and the next one, because the original 
landowner had chosen to buy two lots and build on just one of them. They 
continued to be sold as a pair through a couple more sales, before the 
vacant lot was eventually sold separately, and built upon.



On March 12, 2017 4:42:35 PM Tristan Anderson  
wrote:


What is the most appropriate landuse tag for vacant lots in urban areas?  
That is, land that was previously occupied by a house or other building 
that has been demolished, no trace of the building remains, and the land is 
currently overgrown or covered in untended grass.  In the past I have used 
brownfield, but this is for land scheduled for redevelopment, which is 
often not the case.




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Re: [Tagging] Landuse for vacant lots

2017-03-13 Thread John F. Eldredge
Yes, that makes sense to me. Nashville, TN, where I live, has purchased 
some houses that were built in flood plains, demolished them, and doesn't 
allow anything to be built there now. The tag disused:landuse=residential 
seems like the logical one to use for those vacant lots. I suspect the 
foundation structures were filled in rather than removed.




On March 13, 2017 6:28:09 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 14-Mar-17 09:13 AM, ael wrote:

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 11:55:24AM -0300, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

I favor "landuse=disused".

English is not my primary language, but it seems a little contradictory here.

"landuse" says that a specific piece of land is being used for something.
Then "disused" says that it's being used for nothing.


I have had problems with this rather literal interpretation of disused.
I have tagged certain quarries as 'disused' because stone is no longer
being harvested. But those quarries are still quarries, are still major
features on the landscape with 100s of metres of quarry faces, and
massive spill heaps. People do walk there, and sometimes there is
informal rock climbing in some of them, but they are not in proper use
for any other purpose: they are quarries.

Yet some people object to them being rendered on the basis of the
superficial contradiction that you highlight.

Maybe we need a tag=out_of_use or some such?  But that is open to the
same literal objection.


'

I think disused is correct ...
but it needs to be applied correctly so that not only OSM 'rules' are done, 
but it gives some comprehension as to what is going on.


disused:landuse=residential

This gives the under standing that it is disused now, but was a past land 
use of residential.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused:

Does that help?




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=courier

2017-03-10 Thread John F. Eldredge
The services offered by post offices vary from country. Post offices in the 
US handle letters and packages, but don't offer any of the other services 
you mention. The main distinction in the USA is that "post office" 
conventionally refers only to offices of the United States Postal Service, 
which is quasi-governmental. A private company that rents out postboxes 
would be referred to as a "mail center". The private companies that offer 
package delivery are typically more expensive than the USPS, but are faster 
and more reliable about delivering on schedule.




On March 10, 2017 7:02:12 AM Philip Barnes  wrote:


On Friday, 10 March 2017, Paul Johnson wrote:

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 4:04 AM, muzirian  wrote:

> The fact that people are relying these services more than post offices to
> send/recieve things (which is the most important purpose) made me think
> that they have the significance to be called as amenity, but it is
> debatable. What i wish is to make a standard for them , no matter if its
> tagged as amenity or office.


That's my rationale for the amenity=post_office operator=* combination.
They're functionally similar to functionally identical these days.

Not really, you only go to a post office to send large items that is very 
occadional if you are not running a business.


A post office on the other hand is a bank, you go there to withdraw cash, 
get foreign currency, tax your car, collect your pension, pick up 
government forms, renew your passport.


Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=courier

2017-03-09 Thread John F. Eldredge
We already have an "amenity=post_office" tag.  I note that the wiki page 
for that tag includes an operator subtag, for if the post office is 
operated by a private company rather than a government agency. The 
United States Postal Service is quasi-governmental; the US Constitution 
calls for its establishment, and there are laws that apply specifically 
to it, but it is self-funded by selling its services, not funded by the 
Federal government.



On 03/09/2017 04:49 PM, Warin wrote:
In this case I would tag it "office=courier" with the description "An 
office where goods are sent/received".

The tag 'operator' can be used to specify the firm.

I would not use amenity.

On 10-Mar-17 01:26 AM, muzirian wrote:
By courier I meant a place where you can sent and receive parcels and 
mail, like post office.


On Thursday, March 9, 2017, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 08-Mar-17 08:42 PM, muzirian wrote:

A company that transports commercial packages and documents.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcourier



What physical feature are you mapping?

The description says "A company.." Companies are legal entities
... not physical features.





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=courier

2017-03-08 Thread John F. Eldredge
Are you trying to map the location of an office of a courier service? 
Couriers themselves are people, and by the nature of their business have no 
fixed location.



On March 8, 2017 3:32:23 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 08-Mar-17 08:42 PM, muzirian wrote:

A company that transports commercial packages and documents.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcourier



What physical feature are you mapping?

The description says "A company.." Companies are legal entities ... not
physical features.






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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

2017-03-05 Thread John F. Eldredge
It is possible that the moderator has a backlog of messages, and hasn't 
reviewed it yet.



On March 5, 2017 5:02:26 PM Thilo Haug  wrote:


There was an automatic reply, saying :

"Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
[...]
Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision."

But that doesn't mean to me the whole mail was "invalid" or won't reach
the list at all
(didn't "receive notification of the moderator's decision")
I think the message text should be clarified or the process of checking
those mails.

Betreff:Your message to Tagging awaits moderator approval
Datum:  Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:46:37 +
Von:tagging-ow...@openstreetmap.org
An: th...@gmx.de



Your mail to 'Tagging' with the subject

Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for
accomodations

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Post by non-member to a members-only list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/confirm/tagging/05723fa27000534321abf9935369c04e2a26adc1


Am 05.03.2017 um 23:46 schrieb David Bannon:


Maybe its time someone put a note on the proposal page saying that the
author is posting to the list but does not appear to be receiving
messages from it ?

In case its a language issue, could that message be in German and
English perhaps ?

David


On 06/03/17 05:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 4 Mar 2017, at 16:50, Thilo Haug > wrote:


Please check where this mail has been gone, reason :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031403.html



maybe you haven't been subscribed with the email address from which
it was sent by the time it was sent? You should have gotten an
automatic reply in this case.


cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Mapping freeway stub ends?

2017-03-01 Thread John F. Eldredge
The instance I was speaking of is Briley Parkway, a ring road through the 
outer portion of Nashville,  TN. It is an odd mix, with portions 
implemented as a limited-access freeway, and other portions as ordinary 
city streets. Some parts were purpise-built, other parts involved 
connectinng existing roadways. The northwest quadrant, which passes over 
the Cumberland River and then goes through a mostly-undeveloped portion of 
Davidson County, was not built until about 20 years after the rest of the 
roadway opened.



On March 1, 2017 5:55:46 AM Volker Schmidt <vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:


The original example
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8190845,-76.8530417,857m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-US
is now a set of ways that can be used as non-freeway highways. I would most
likely tag them as either service or track with surface and tracktype tags.
Important to check on the ground the access rights and add exact width,
surface and smoothness tags.
In addition I would tag them in addition with abandoned:highway=motorway if
they were ever used as freeways (which seem not to be the case). I would
not use the construction tag as this would mean that this is part of a
freeway under construction.

Volker

On 1 March 2017 at 05:28, John F. Eldredge <j...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:


In some cases, the distinction between "abandoned" and "on indefinite
hold" can be a bit blurry. One ring road here in Nashville, TN, USA was
left in an incomplete state for about twenty years before the politicians
finally allocated the money, and the last segment of the road was built.

On February 27, 2017 1:09:03 PM Kevin Kenny <kevin.b.kenny+...@gmail.com>
wrote:


On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:34 PM, Paul Johnson <ba...@ursamundi.org>
wrote:


For the above situation, I'd tag it as highway=construction,
construction=* and abandoned=yes since it was abandoned under
construction...
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>



Hmm. I'm reluctant to use different lifecycle
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix> stages for the
same object.
How relevant is it to map the fact that it skipped 'present' and 'disused'
and went directly to 'abandoned' from 'construction'? Is that fact visible
on the ground and important?

Example near me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/36835272 is a
motorway link that was abandoned during construction. Construction
never began for the associated motorway, which would have run
northwest into the airport. The link was repurposed as the ring road
surrounding an office park, which therefore enjoys a disproportionately
large motorway interchange combined with very poor access to the
local surface streets.

I found no reason to tag the history of the road. It's the ring road of
an office park now.

Random trivia: There was infighting among agencies of the state
government regarding the proposal. Part of the reason for building
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6121261 where it stands
was that it was then the offices of the Conservation Department,
and was sited to block the proposed route. In a supreme irony,
the Transportation Department now occupies the building. In the
last fifty years, enough development has taken place that it
would not be feasible to route a motorway through there. At
the time of the proposal, which was finally abandoned in 1970,
the area of the proposed route was mostly swamp land.
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping freeway stub ends?

2017-02-28 Thread John F. Eldredge
In some cases, the distinction between "abandoned" and "on indefinite hold" 
can be a bit blurry. One ring road here in Nashville, TN, USA was left in 
an incomplete state for about twenty years before the politicians finally 
allocated the money, and the last segment of the road was built.




On February 27, 2017 1:09:03 PM Kevin Kenny  
wrote:



On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:34 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:


For the above situation, I'd tag it as highway=construction,
construction=* and abandoned=yes since it was abandoned under
construction...




Hmm. I'm reluctant to use different lifecycle
 stages for the same
object.
How relevant is it to map the fact that it skipped 'present' and 'disused'
and went directly to 'abandoned' from 'construction'? Is that fact visible
on the ground and important?

Example near me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/36835272 is a
motorway link that was abandoned during construction. Construction
never began for the associated motorway, which would have run
northwest into the airport. The link was repurposed as the ring road
surrounding an office park, which therefore enjoys a disproportionately
large motorway interchange combined with very poor access to the
local surface streets.

I found no reason to tag the history of the road. It's the ring road of
an office park now.

Random trivia: There was infighting among agencies of the state
government regarding the proposal. Part of the reason for building
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6121261 where it stands
was that it was then the offices of the Conservation Department,
and was sited to block the proposed route. In a supreme irony,
the Transportation Department now occupies the building. In the
last fifty years, enough development has taken place that it
would not be feasible to route a motorway through there. At
the time of the proposal, which was finally abandoned in 1970,
the area of the proposed route was mostly swamp land.



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Re: [Tagging] A place where letters & parcels are sent to be sorted so they can be delivered?

2017-02-25 Thread John F. Eldredge
The sorting facility probably outgrew the building. In Nashville, TN, USA, 
where I live, the 1930s Main Post Office facility, next to a railway 
station, is now an art museum. The new Main Post Office facility is at 
least 20 times larger, and located near the main airport. It includes a 
small customer service area, but the main function of the building is sorting.



On February 25, 2017 4:50:42 AM Dave F  wrote:


On 23/02/2017 20:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


ok, the term might still be in use, but if you're not used to the term
it's evoking pictures like this:
http://lowres-picturecabinet.com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/29/main/11/440889.jpg


I suspect that is still relevant for many hand written envelopes &
awkward shaped parcels



according to wikipedia mail_centre is the word:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Mail#Operations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_centre

according to google, sorting office is most important in dictionaries
and mail centre is most important in the real world ;-)


This is interesting. From what wikipedia says, the building I was
tagging in Britain may not be classed as a sorting office/mail centre
any more, but a 'delivery office'. (only 28 taginfo of a claimed 1,356 -
maybe a good quarterly project for Talk-GB?).

DaveF


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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

2017-02-20 Thread John F. Eldredge
In the USA, those would commonly be referred to as a brush pile or brush 
row. They are commonly seen at the edge of a field that has recently been 
cleared of bushes and saplings. Sometimes they are left to decay in place, 
sometimes they are burned, and sometimes they are ground up by a 
wood-chipper and hauled away.



On February 20, 2017 8:19:04 AM Jerry Clough - OSM  
wrote:


I've many such things: the material is called brash (sometimes brush) in 
the UK. It is often just collected in piles or in longer rows (typically at 
the edge of the area being worked on) and these are usually referred to as 
brash piles.
Brash is also used to deliberately fill gaps to discourage people (& their 
dogs) from accessing places.
Dead hedge is just not a term that I recognise: it certainly isn't standard 
British English in the conservation sector. Some hedgelaying techniques of 
interweaving can be used, but these are in the main to reduce the size & 
profile of the pile. When used as a barrier brash is usually used to plug 
small gaps rather than to create a continuous barrier. Note that sometimes 
brash is simply not cleared after chainsaw or brush-cutting and this may 
appear to a deliberate rather than a transient & accidental barrier.
I would therefore suggest barrier=brash_pile or brush_pile, and despite 
Wikipedia not dead hedge. Like every other native English speaker on this 
list dead hedge means a hedge where the plants have died.

Jerry

  From: Andy Townsend 
 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
 Sent: Monday, 13 February 2017, 21:02
 Subject: Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

On 13/02/2017 20:46, Chris Hill wrote:


It's a fence.



+1 to that.

Despite both of the refs on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge
being English ones, it's not an English term I recognise at all, and it
could have been designed to confuse.

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

2017-02-15 Thread John F. Eldredge
The RMS voltage of an alternating-current electrical source is the 
direct-current voltage that would supply the same power into a resistive 
load. That is to say, imagine you have an AC power source operating a 
heating element, and a DC power source operating an identical heating 
element. The DC connection powers the heating element continuously. The AC 
signal starts at zero volts, increases to a peak, then decreases back to 
zero. Then it does that again, to a negative voltage (the electrons flow in 
the opposite direction). The heating element doesn't care which direction 
the electrons are flowing; both directions produce the same amount of heat. 
If the net heat production from the AC-powered heating element is the same 
as the net heat production from the DC-powered element, then the Root Mean 
Square voltage of the AC power source is the same as the constant DC 
voltage from the DC power source.




On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:



On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François Lacombe" 
wrote:

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:



In Australia;
Heavy industry gets 3 phases.



Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry : https://www.google.fr/maps/@45
.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4
!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :

From public power grid : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla

ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.
2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-
I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0
x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1

To traction substation : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,
15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwS
RQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2a
e4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1



For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large
commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380,
220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz).
Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire
systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which
is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of
the system


Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances encompass
an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.


Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, while
RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?

Meters seem to have varying ways on showing the rated voltages the meter
measures, that they may only show RMS voltage or peak-to-peak voltage, or
both. On countries using single-phase or split-phase distribution (most of
the Americas, and some Asian countries), either the RMS or peak-to-peak are
shown on the meter's rated voltage, while on countries primarily using
three-phase distribution (usually 230/400 volts), the meter shows only RMS
voltage for an ordinary single-phase customer, but on others requiring
three-phase for other applications, the meter shows both RMS and
peak-to-peak.

And on my mapping work on Philippine power networks, with the RMS voltage
being 220 volts, a single-phase transformer may have a single-phase
(line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) secondary. For a
single-phase transformer with a single phase secondary, common used by
provincial electric cooperatives, I use the RMS voltage of 220 as default,
but for a split-phase one, usually in areas served by private utilities, it
defaults to 440 volts (peak-to-peak), though the meter used for measuring
is rated by the RMS voltage of 220 volts (240 volts on the meter's labels,
fortunately, it is within the tolerance of 220-240 volts)

And on voltage tolerances, 220 volts is within tolerance of the 220-240
volt range, so does 110 or 120 volts being within the tolerance of the
100-127 volt range.

), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the province
usually served by 

Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

2017-02-13 Thread John F. Eldredge
Well, I just learned a term I didn't know. I had assumed you were referring 
to a regular, planted hedge in which all of the bushes or trees had died. 
Yes, I suppose we do need a separate tag for a barrier composed of cut 
branches.



On February 13, 2017 2:35:41 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:


Sorry, I looked up the word on wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hedge and thought it was a common
phrase for branches that form a barrier. So it is not about a plant that is
dead but about a human made barrier mainly made from branches

m

Op 13 feb. 2017 21:17 schreef "Chris Hill" :


Wait until spring to see if it is really dead? :-)

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 13/02/2017 20:13, Marc Gemis wrote:



How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g.
dead_hedge ?

m





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Re: [Tagging] Dead hedge

2017-02-13 Thread John F. Eldredge
Do we have any other cases where dead vegetation is tagged differently from 
living vegetation?



On February 13, 2017 2:14:01 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:


How do you map a dead hedge?
As barrier=hedge or barrier=fence with some appropriate fence_type e.g.
dead_hedge ?

m



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

2017-02-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
Here in the USA, I have never seen a self-service laundry that did not have 
dryers, but I don't know whether that is true worldwide.  I suppose it is 
best to err on the side of caution and include a subtag for the presence of 
dryers.




On February 11, 2017 8:18:27 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:



sent from a phone


On 11 Feb 2017, at 10:28, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

shop=laundry
automated=yes
self_service=yes

covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would much 
prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is shop=laundry.



do we imply driers as well? Should we have a subtag?

The staffed laundries often offer also dry cleaning, which I've never seen 
in an automated one, and the wiki suggests a different main tag for them: 
shop=dry_cleaning

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddry_cleaning

IMHO, as apparently there are mixed types, it would be better to organize 
this as subtags within the laundry tag, e.g. dry_cleaning=yes/no/only


cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Beef fattening stations

2017-02-10 Thread John F. Eldredge
The beef in turn may be used to produce other food products. Since what 
leaves the feed lot is the living animal, which isn't rendered into beef 
until it reaches the slaughterhouse, I think produce=cattle or 
farmland=feedlot are the best solutions.


On 02/08/2017 05:48 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Along with landuse=farmland and farmland=feedlot, how about 
produce=beef? That sidesteps the issue of steer vs bull, etc.


On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 5:14 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:




sent from a phone

> On 8 Feb 2017, at 22:54, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> landuse=farmland
>
> farmland=feedlot


+1,
After having researched a bit about this I agree that this appears
to be appropriate tagging


cheers,
Martin
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com


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Re: [Tagging] Beef fattening stations

2017-02-07 Thread John F. Eldredge
A breeding station is where animals are mated.  This isn't normally done 
at a feedlot.  Also, the generic term is "cattle", since you could also 
have heifers (young female cattle), bulls (adult male cattle), steers 
(castrated adult male cattle), or bullocks (young male cattle), in 
addition to cows (adult female cattle).



On 02/07/2017 08:41 AM, Viking wrote:

Hi.
To be consistent with the approved and already used tags 
amenity=animal_breeding [1], amenity=animal_shelter [2] and 
amenity=animal_boarding [3], what do you think about:

amenity=animal_breeding
animal_breeding:feedlot=cow OR 
animal_breeding:concentrated_animal_feeding_operation=cow

It also specifies the species of animal bred.
Moreover it could be compared and contrasted to a new tag also for organic 
farms:

amenity=animal_breeding
animal_breeding:organic=cow


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Danimal_breeding
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Danimal_shelter
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Danimal_boarding

Cheers,
Alberto


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Re: [Tagging] Notary Office

2017-02-07 Thread John F. Eldredge
Also, a lot of businesses serve as notaries, as a side-business. The 
closest notary public to my house is a company that rents out private 
mailboxes and sells shipping supplies. I have had several documents 
notarized there.



On 02/07/2017 01:28 PM, Richard Welty wrote:

On 2/7/17 2:21 PM, Colin Smale wrote:

On 2017-02-07 18:56, Richard Welty wrote:


office=notary just seems wrong to me, they're
rarely standalone in my experience.


Richard, in Europe they are almost always standalone, by definition.
They need to be independent and impartial "by law". They have a
protected role in many transactions including real estate and probate.
"office=notary" would make perfect sense here.


which is fine for europe if that's the case. in the US, you go to your
bank or your lawyer's office if you want something notarized.

clearly there is no one size fits all tagging for this.

richard



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Re: [Tagging] Exit list signs?

2017-01-21 Thread John F. Eldredge
As far as I know, a node does not have a direction, so "forward" or 
"backward" are meaningless. A way has a direction, a node does not.



On January 21, 2017 3:48:33 PM yo paseopor  wrote:


I think Traffic sign is a NODE, IN the way, as I map stop,give way,or city
limit. But putting a traffic sign does not free you of putting tags and
values in segments of a way as maxspeed (I map the traffic sign as a node
but I repeat the maxspeed=value in the segment). A good solution for making
standard and international would be to use the same propierties as the way
for the traffic_sign node for the future standarization and
internationalization. Also for exit_to signs.

Cheers (salut i senyals)
yopaseopor



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Re: [Tagging] Roads with no speed limits

2016-09-03 Thread John F. Eldredge
One city street here in Nashville, TN, USA went several decades with no 
speed limit signs at all.  Then, one day, it suddenly had "Speed Limit 
30 MPH" signs every few hundred feet.  My guess is that someone 
successfully argued their way out of a speeding ticket, stating that 
they weren't violating the speed limit because no speed limit was 
posted, and that the court, and/or the public works department, decided 
to make sure that no one else could use the same excuse.



On 08/28/2016 05:28 PM, Warin wrote:

In Australia (and I'd think most other parts of the world)

The speed limit sign you last saw is in effect untill you see another 
sign.

In Australia it might be 100 or more miles between signs.


On 8/29/2016 7:51 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

Il giorno 28 ago 2016, alle ore 22:54, Hans De Kryger 
 ha scritto:


My guess was also what Todd said. Same as the freeway.


that's also the situation in Germany: the motorway limit reaches 
until the end of the motorway which is typically signposted a few 
meters before the end of the off ramp. In Italy there's a general 
limit of 40km/h on all off ramps, although it is always (?) 
signposted I believe it is also set by the law and hence would also 
be effective in absence of signs.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

2016-03-30 Thread John F. Eldredge
In the 19th century, a chandler was someone who made and sold candles, and 
so there were many chandlers who didn't deal in nautical supplies. When did 
the meaning shift?




On March 14, 2016 6:50:22 AM Richard  wrote:


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +, Malcolm Herring wrote:

The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term


this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

2016-02-12 Thread John F. Eldredge
I am dubious about tagging the artists that the gallery represents, 
since this is likely to change on a fairly frequent basis.  My 
impression is that most exhibitions are only for a period of a week or 
two, meaning that the tag information would frequently be out of date.


On 02/03/2016 02:52 PM, Max wrote:

On 2016년 02월 03일 10:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I'd prefer amenity=museum, but I see that putting it under the tourism
key is quite established so it would have to be discussed if a change
would make sense (if it hurts less to do this change one and forever or
if it is better to bear the little pain when putting tourism=museum as
main tag on a museum).

I would be more explicit with the key names, to avoid situations like
amenity=parking, parking=surface, surface=asphalt ;-)

amenity (or tourism)=museum
museum_type (or museum_for or museum:topic or ...) = art / railway /
history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / prints / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...
(if applicable)


So we are now at:
tourism=museum (nicer would be amenity, but for the sake of not changing
too much)
museum:topic= art / railway / history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / video / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...


Additionally
amenity=contemporary_art_gallery

and
shop=art

That sounds good to me.
Maybe we should have a way to add the names of the artist this gallery
represents?

Are there any objections to this?

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Re: [Tagging] Question reg. wheelchair mapping

2016-01-24 Thread John F. Eldredge
The width is important as well.  I have been on footpaths that slanted 
downward across the face of a steep incline.  The slope of the path was 
moderate, but the path was only about half a meter wide, with 45-degree 
slopes above and below the path.  A person on foot could navigate the 
path (preferably with the aid of a walking stick), but a wheelchair user 
would be risking their life on that path.


On 01/08/2016 09:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2016-01-08 15:35 GMT+01:00 Andy Townsend >:


a steep footpath with corners that weren't negotiable by a
wheelchair could still be tagged with an incline like that.



a steep way is never suitable for wheelchairs, at least not according 
to construction standards (e.g. in Germany, 6% is the maximum admitted 
incline, which is 6 meters height for every 100 meters projected 
length, and even then you have to provide horizontal landings every 6 
meters). On the other hand, sharp corners aren't a problem, a 
wheelchair can rotate on the spot, standards require a diameter of 
1,50 m, but actual wheelchairs might be smaller.



cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging scrap yards, junkyards

2016-01-24 Thread John F. Eldredge
The only "waste transfer stations" I am aware of in my area are 
companies that empty garbage from huge "dumpster" garbage bins at 
apartment complexes and businesses, then ship the garbage to landfills.  
Unlike a scrapyard, there is no long-term storage involved.


On 01/20/2016 11:31 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 20/01/2016 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
On 20 January 2016 at 02:03, Dave Swarthout > wrote:



I'm trying to decide how to tag what we in the U.S. refer to as
junkyards.




...

Would amenity=waste_transfer_station be an option? See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station 
. Perhaps this makes more sense for scrapyards that make most of 
their money from selling the iron used in cars.


I'd have thought that a "waste transfer station" was something else?  
Scrapyards round here tend to major not so much in selling iron but in 
car parts (though obviously that'll vary with commodity prices and 
local area).  I think I've seen at least one "waste transfer station" 
somewhere in the county though what that's tagged as I wouldn't like 
to say.   It didn't look very scrapyardish (though I can see how there 
might be overlap of edge cases).


Cheers,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

2015-06-05 Thread John F. Eldredge
Agreed.  If you look at all of what I said, I was arguing that concerns 
about how many types of things could be rendered should not prevent 
detailed tagging.  It is always possible to go from a complex data set 
to a simplified rendering; going from a simple data set to a complex 
rendering is frequently not possible.


On 06/05/2015 01:31 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:40 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com 
mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:


There is an obvious limit to the number of types of icons that can
be rendered on any one map before it becomes incomprehensible. 



Rendering can choose to use the same symbol for two tags.
One tag however can't become two symbols.

While the rendering has a huge impact on tagging, OSM is foremost a 
data set: one that can be rendered various ways.

It's important to get good expressive data.



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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

2015-05-23 Thread John F. Eldredge
Electric outlets that have a USB-style connector, for charging cell phones 
and other portable devices, are fairly new. I don't recall seeing any until 
about a year ago. So, there is not yet a common name for them, to 
distinguish them from conventional electric outlets that offer only 120V 
AC.  I have seen the USB charging kiosks in airports, but, again, am not 
aware of a specialized name for them. I charge my phone using a small 
adapter that plugs into a regular wall outlet or extension cord.




On May 23, 2015 3:23:48 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


On 23 May 2015 at 17:47, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Wiki article clearly teaches that the amenity=charging_station tag was
 designed with vehicles in mind.


Well if it's a VEHICLE charging station, it should have said that. They
didn't specify what changing it was in the name - so it's surely open for
all charging stations.




 And I reckon for those of you who expressed concern about rendering, that
 part of it isn't up to me, or us, and will be resolved later.

 The big question is whether to expand the use of the tag so it includes
 devices other than vehicles. The article mentions bicycles but doesn't go
 into detail about bicycle charging_stations except to say There are some
 different types of charging stations. E-Bikes e.g. can be charged at an
 domestic wall socket. To my mind, that opens the door to expanding the use
 of the tag.


Asbolutely !


 Also the notion of socket:type=USB or socket:USB=* (a number of sockets or
 yes) seems fine. The other keys mentioned in the Wiki entry can be used
 just as they are in many other similar situations:
 fee=*
 operator=*
 access=*
 voltage=*
 opening_hours=*

 These stations, or in the case of the Seattle airport, entire sections of
 seats, have domestic wall sockets offering a way to charge laptops as
 well as the USB output. The tag socket:nema_5_15=* denoting is bulky to say
 the least but if that's the established tag for the receptacles found in
 American homes, then it might work here too.


What do 'standard Americans' call their sockets ? We shouldn't be using
technical names on OSM unless that's the common name for them. Voltage is a
useful bit of data.



 If we don't do it this way, clearly another amenity tag will be needed. I
 hate to start down that path because I know it will be difficult to achieve
 any consensus. In the meantime I have tagged those areas with
 amenity=charging_station until we resolve this question.

 Regards
 Dave


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Re: [Tagging] Water featuers

2015-05-22 Thread John F. Eldredge
The water feature we are talking about here is an artificial waterfall, 
usually pump-driven.




On May 22, 2015 9:19:44 AM Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote:


On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 02:00:30PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:




  Am 22.05.2015 um 13:35 schrieb Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:
 
  These might be cascades, rills, reflecting-pools, rain-chains, moats, etc.
 
  We might, for example, have:
 
natural=water
water=cascde
 
  etc. - but not:
 
water=fountain
 
  as we already have
 
amenity=fountain
 
  or we could have:
 
amenity=cascade

I am uncomfortable with cascade - in several languages it
means waterfall so there is considerable potential for
confusion.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

2015-05-19 Thread John F. Eldredge
True. Some tailors have pre-made garments, which they alter as needed to fit 
the customer, in addition to or instead of making garments from scratch. I 
would describe the facility that includes pre-made garments as shop=tailor, and 
the facility that makes all garments from raw cloth for each customer as 
craft=tailor.


On May 18, 2015 8:34:49 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Am 18.05.2015 um 15:13 schrieb Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de:
  
  Except that several values have moved away from shop like
 shop=tailer = craft=tailor. I mean we have have more than 1000 tags
 with shop=craft
  Go on page 9,10,...
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shop#values and you will find
 many values, which are not shops and have better established tagging
 alternatives.
 
 
 I believe there are tailors in shops and tailors working in different
 context, just because there are several keys with the exact same value
 doesn't mean they say exactly the same thing. If you look at the
 numbers, there are more than double the amount of tailors tagged where
 the mapper put emphasis on the shop compared to those where the
 emphasis was put on the craft.
 
 On page 9 in taginfo shop values, there are pois with 34 uses, I don't
 care for these, they're too few to make any kind of mainstream
 statistics/to draw conclusions.
 
 cheers 
 Martin 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

2015-05-16 Thread John F. Eldredge
From my experience, rest areas along the US Interstate Highway system 
(motorways in OSM terms) usually have a designated area for this, generally on 
the opposite side of the parking lot from the building holding human restrooms, 
so that there is a reduced risk of stepping in a pet dropping for the general 
public.


On May 15, 2015 2:32:25 AM CDT, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
 Since so may people in Japan travel with small dogs, most parking
 areas and many service areas have pet areas (I think they are
 called), where you can let your dog out of the car and walk them or
 let them deficate. This is not an enclosed space - there are no fences
 or facilities. 
 
 They are there specifically to let your pet relieve themselves. 
 
 I believe the fenced-in no-leash areas are called dog runs.
 
 Could these airport areas for pets be be the same thing as my PA/SA
 areas?
 
 Javbw. 
 
 
 
  On May 15, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:
  
  These stations are in facilities such as airports,
  and they are open to whatever animal needs them:
  pets, service dogs, and unruly children as appropriate.
  Many of them are indoors.
  
  Since they are likely to include access to dog waste bags, they
 could be a subtag under vending.  Ugh.
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Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed

2015-05-15 Thread John F. Eldredge
I have seen some tight intersections, with buildings directly adjoining the 
roadway at all four corners, where a maxlength tag would also be useful. A 
passenger car or a delivery truck would be able to turn the corner, but a 
tractor-trailer rig (heavy goods vehicle) or bus would get wedged in place.


On May 13, 2015 6:15:22 AM CDT, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 4:03 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl
 wrote:
 
   Don't agree with this... there have been discussions in the past
 about
  whether the width of a way includes the pavements etc... Where a
 road
  goes under a bridge, where do you measure the height of the road?
 The
  highest point (not good enough for vehicles) or the lowest highest
 point
  or in the middle of the road? I would expect maxheight:physical to
 apply
  to a normal vehicle, of maybe 2.5m width.
 
 There are cases where maxheight:physical and maxwidth:physical may be
 different from the legal definitions and significantly affect the
 viability.  A standout problem regularly occurs in Oregon where you
 can
 have human powered vehicles up to about 3 feet wide legally, but many
 cycleways, particularly older ones built before the 1990s, have
 barriers
 that make all but the 10-speeds with drop bars impractical as
 negotiating
 the barriers that keep motorists out also prevent longer or wider
 bicycles
 from fitting.  Similar issues exist on Oklahoma turnpikes, which
 commonly
 allow vehicles up to 11'6 wide, but the typical cash toll booth is
 only
 capable of fitting a 9'5 wide vehicle.  Go figure.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?

2015-05-12 Thread John F. Eldredge
In American usage, gravel refers to both rounded and unrounded stones of 
similar size.  For example, concrete often makes use of crushed stone in the 
gravel size; it is angular rather than rounded. Pea gravel is often used as an 
ornamental surface layer for concrete, but not for use within a concrete slab, 
since it is more expensive.


On May 12, 2015 4:47:54 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
2015-05-10 14:19 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com:

 *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in
place
 of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and
rounded.



reading several sources it appears to me that gravel is rounded too,
the
wiki seems wrong here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface  wrong picture and wrong
description, wrong size specification...

FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):

granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)

cheers,
Martin




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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

2015-05-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
In the same way, there is a tradition of boiled cookies in the USA, that are 
on the borderline between cookies (biscuits, in British terminology) and candy. 
They involve a sticky, sweetened grain, most commonly oatmeal (rolled oats).  
Here is an example:
http://dessert.food.com/recipe/no-bake-chocolate-oatmeal-cookies-23821


On May 11, 2015 10:47:43 AM CDT, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote:
There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries.
(I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi

If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural
variations.

+1 to Janko's a+b),
and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes
confectionery:BAR=yes.



2015-05-12 0:24 GMT+09:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com:

 I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a
place
 with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they
have
 5% candy so you add candy=yes.

 Janko

 pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je
 napisao:

 In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better
tagged
 as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do
have to
 bake them, right? :)

 On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo
molto...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
  I believe there is some overlap between the shop values
 
  confectionery
  pastry
  candy
  sweets
 
  shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K
vs.
 300
  vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite
 generic.
  For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's
 confections)
  and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at
least
  without subtag, which is currently not documented). often,
because in
  some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other
contexts
 there
  might be shops that are offering both kind.
 
  If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections,
 finding a
  shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be
 helpful
  but rather a big annoyance.
 
  From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember
that
  pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's
 confections,
  so the term might be less appropriate.
 
  sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki
and
 can
  maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for
 candy/sugar
  confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what
the
  natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional
information
 with
  respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use
  completely.
 
  I think we could deal with this situation in several ways:
 
  a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level
tags and
  suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have
only
 mixed
  shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the
more
  specific pastry and candy tags where applicable).
 
  b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag
and
 use
  subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or
sugar_confectionery=yes to
  make the distinction
 
  c) your suggestion here
 
  Personally I favor b). What do you think?

 My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and
 confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural
 background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but
shops
 selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere
 and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are
 quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses).

 But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw
sug^W^Wsubtags
 makes sense too.

 For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I
think
 that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best
practices
 better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag
 multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or
 confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I
 prefer the later).

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging village sign

2015-05-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
In the USA, such signs are more commonly at or near the edge of the community, 
so that you see what community you are entering, rather than at its center. 
Also, while some communities have a public square, not all do so.


On May 8, 2015 4:50:37 AM CDT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 May 2015 at 23:11, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Tips on tagging a village sign please.

 Village sign: an ornate sign located fairly central to the village -
such as
 on the village green.

There are lots of these signs near where I live. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_sign for examples.

I've always used man_made=village_sign to tag them -- which seems to
have a number of uses according to
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=village+sign#values
(although a good proportional of them are probably down to me).

The village name shown on the sign should also be recorded, and for
that I've used name=*. I know that perhaps doesn't quite fit with the
usual use of name=*, as here it's the name being shown, rather than
the name of the sign, but I thought it was close enough. But if anyone
has any better suggestions there...

Robert.

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?

2015-05-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and setts 
(some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some 
irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of 
pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often used 
on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons.


On May 11, 2015 6:46:10 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
On 10 May 2015 at 15:34, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
wrote:

 On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

  pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or
mortar
 (?)
  and is typically seen in old cities. Example:
  http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q

 In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes:



Those are pebbles - or pebblestone

Cobbles are rounded and difficult to walk on
http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/coronation-street-new-set-health-hazard-stars-keep-tripping-new-cobbles/
esp. when wet

Then there's setts
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/images/2013/01/IMG_9827.jpg
- squarer blocks



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Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common

2015-05-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
This is definitely something that needs a site survey.


On May 11, 2015 6:00:29 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as
potential
emergency helipads:

   - Ground conditions
   - overhead obstructions
- don't think we're qualified to make assessment (without site visit
and
   heli knowledge)
   - A heli pilot wouldn't use our info - he'd always make his own
   assessment on the day - so little point in having 'data'.
   - etc.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

2015-05-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal. 
Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation.


On May 11, 2015 6:17:08 PM CDT, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
 Pastry-only shops are
 quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses).

 But is pastry = patisserie ?

To me it is, but deserts are very tied to the local culture, so I'm
sure opinions will differ.



http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg

 Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually
sells,
 too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection
at
 bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much
larger
 selecter with higher quality and looks like this:

 http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg

A french patisserie will sell both kinds. A boulangerie will
almost always also sell croisants (the first kind) even if it sells no
other sweet stuff. For what it's worth, the first kind is generally
refered to vienoiseries in France (where I come from) and danish
pastry in Ireland (where I live).

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of pitches within a campsite

2015-05-06 Thread John F. Eldredge
I am using K-9, an open-source Android app.


On May 5, 2015 6:35:40 PM CDT, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote:
On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 18:22 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote:
 It has been many years since I last went tent-camping, but my
 experience of campgrounds in the US national park system was numbered
 poles marking each campsite, a grassy area for pitching a tent, and a
 charcoal grill mounted on a steel pole. You weren't allowed to cut
 brush or to have a fire on the ground, only one in the charcoal
grill,
 as a precaution against wildfires. There was a wooden outhouse (pit
 toilet) shared by multiple campsites.
 
Similar here in some Australian National Parks but also have more
Caravan Park like ones and some National Parks where you can camp where
you find a bit of clear ground. We need to cover the lot.

P.S. Hey John, your emails arrive with each paragraph one long line
requiring scrolling miles to the right to read. What email client do
you
use ?

David 
 




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of pitches within a campsite

2015-05-05 Thread John F. Eldredge
It has been many years since I last went tent-camping, but my experience of 
campgrounds in the US national park system was numbered poles marking each 
campsite, a grassy area for pitching a tent, and a charcoal grill mounted on a 
steel pole. You weren't allowed to cut brush or to have a fire on the ground, 
only one in the charcoal grill, as a precaution against wildfires. There was a 
wooden outhouse (pit toilet) shared by multiple campsites.



On May 2, 2015 3:39:47 PM CDT, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:
It may be common in some areas to allow pitching tents anywhere within
a designated area. But I have mapped a couple of backcountry (backpack)
trail camps that have a numbered post at each pitch, so I know that
they do exist and we ought to allow for it. In the two cases I can
think of at the moment they pitches were fairly spartan with only a
cleared area and fire ring for each.

Perhaps they exist in my area because of issues with fire danger: They
really only want you having a fire or using a camp stove in designated
areas. Maybe areas that get more rain don’t need to worry as much about
that type of thing.

Cheers,
Tod

 On May 2, 2015, at 1:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 camp sites with tents from my experience  often don't number pitches
but let you set up your tent anywhere you want (within a certain area)
 





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off

2015-04-30 Thread John F. Eldredge
In the USA, there aren't any public holidays on a national scale on which 
businesses are required to close. I don't know of any such laws on a state 
scale, but I am not familiar with the laws of all 50 states. Government 
agencies tend to close on Federal holidays, and on some state holidays, varying 
agency by agency and state by state. For private businesses, it is the 
employer's decision. Retail businesses tend to hold special sales on days when 
many people will be off from work.


On April 30, 2015 11:04:07 AM CDT, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
 On Thu Apr 30 16:40:25 2015 GMT+0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
  On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider
 ypi...@aol.de wrote:
   Hi everyone
  
   As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in
 Germany][1] it would be
   convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most
 opening_hours values
   during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now
 that I do I agree
   more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any
 thoughts about
   this?
  
  Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes
  on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump
  through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this
  already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a
  notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given
 country,
  default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain.
  It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to
  apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor
 ATM.
  
 +1
 You would also have to define which public holidays, in the Uk
 Christmas Day and Easter Sunday have restrictions,  other public
 holidays are at the businesses discretion and will vary from year to
 year.
 
 Phil (trigpoint ) 

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Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank

2015-04-22 Thread John F. Eldredge
In my experience, rivers, unlike harbors, generally don't have buoys or other 
markers showing the location of the navigational channel, probably because the 
flow would be likely to wash them away.


On April 21, 2015 1:08:42 AM CDT, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:47 AM, John F. Eldredge
 j...@jfeldredge.com
 wrote:
 
  The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as
 mudbanks or
  sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating
 on
  rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar
 with a
  particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a
  portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to
 rely
  on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map.
 
 
 At least to the navigable depth, in theory, this can be inferred from
 navigational markings for anyone familiar with the relevant fixtures,
 beacons and bouys.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] addr:interpolation on highway

2015-04-22 Thread John F. Eldredge
Would you need to split the road into two ways, one for the left side and one 
for the right side, even if the roadway is not actually divided? This would 
cause a mismatch between the rendering and what is physically present.


On April 21, 2015 3:33:13 PM CDT, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Mateusz Konieczny
 matkoni...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  I think it is not the best idea, other people may need to split road
 -
  and as result multiple ways will have addr:housenumber=100-500.
 
  Yes, that's an issue.
 So is doubling the way sharing nodes.
 And also creating a parallel way creates issues.
 And relation tagging is complex, and beyond many mappers.
 
 However do note a good automated agent can readily figure that a split
 way
 with identical interpolation should be combined.
 The question is what will hand mappers do with such tagging?
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank

2015-04-20 Thread John F. Eldredge
The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or 
sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers 
frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular 
portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river 
recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date 
information from some other map.


On April 18, 2015 11:32:49 AM CDT, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:
 On 13.04.2015 15:06, Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø wrote:
  I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the
 data
  set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle
 way
  as required by the wiki [1].
 
 As the deepest middle way is hard to identify for regular mappers, I
 would be surprised if many people considered that a strict
 prerequisite
 for mapping rivers. So from my point of view, it would be acceptable
 for
 your import to automatically generate the way from the riverbank area
 and upload both the way and area. This is assuming you know the flow
 direction, which I do consider important.
 
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Re: [Tagging] Straw pole Temperature=objective default unit?

2015-04-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
If you are using a virtual keyboard on a touch-screen device, there is usually 
one or more panels of punctuation characters, including the degree symbol.

Incidentally, this is a straw poll (nonbinding vote), not a straw pole (a 
bundle of straw serving as a pole).


On April 9, 2015 7:18:09 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Am 09.04.2015 um 09:47 schrieb Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com:
  
  Given the difficulty of finding the degree symbol on a normal
 keyboard
 
 
 this depends on the language, on a German keyboard you get it easily.
 No idea about other languages besides Italian, which is broken also
 for many other symbols ;-)
 
 cheers 
 Martin
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Re: [Tagging] New values for entrance=

2015-04-08 Thread John F. Eldredge
Historically speaking, having separate entrances for men and women was once 
common in some Christian denominations in the USA, as was having them sit 
separately once inside. This is why you see some older church buildings with 
two front entrances, one at the left front corner and one at the right front 
corner. Typically, these are rural rather than city churches.


On April 6, 2015 12:29:52 AM CDT, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 Mosques often have separate entrances for men and women.
 
 On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:34 AM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:
 
  Sounds good.
 
  Is there a similar dual entrance concept for other classes of
 building, or
  is this just a school thing?
 
  --
  Many western buildings have a service entrance, but this would
 definitely
  not be for visitors.
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Re: [Tagging] Micro- and macromapping with area=*

2015-03-31 Thread John F. Eldredge
Among other reasons, a managed forest, if it stops being actively managed, will 
gradually revert over time into a wild woodland, as other species start moving 
back in.


On March 31, 2015 5:16:10 PM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Am 31.03.2015 um 12:52 schrieb Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl:
  
  So we have a simple hierarchy:
  
  landuse (implies)= landcover
 
 
 no, it doesn't imply
 
 
  
  but you have to know there is a use at all to tag it as landuse.
 Since the trees may not be used (like in natural=wood), your statement
 is false.
 
 
 indeed, distinguishing managed forests from unmanaged by use of the
 keys landuse and natural was very likely an unlucky decision, in my
 interpretation of these keys it does not work like this, and we would
 have to introduce a new key like managed=yes/no for this.
 
 cheers 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging method of amenities at camp_sites

2015-03-30 Thread John F. Eldredge
It's about time that renderers started supporting semicolon-delimited lists. 
Splitting apart a delimited string is a trivial programming task. I know, 
having worked as a programmer for the last 29 years.



On March 28, 2015 11:09:10 PM CDT, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 Just a note about using semicolon-delimited lists. Most renderers do
 not
 handle such lists very well so a tag like the following:
 
 amenity=bar;restaurant;picnic_table;sanitary_dump_station
 
 might not show you all of the amenities. There have been many
 discussions
 about this issue on this list and elsewhere
 
 On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:39 AM, David Bannon
 dban...@internode.on.net
 wrote:
 
  On Sat, 2015-03-28 at 12:26 +0100, Marc Gemis wrote:
 
   If I am on a large campsite I want to use the map to find my way
 to
   all amenities. If you have put everything on 1 node it's a pretty
   useless map, not ?
 
  Agree in principle Marc but don't think its always practical. I have
  been to many camp grounds that are too big to walk around and bad
  manners to drive (apparently aimlessly) around. Many National Park
  toilets are drop toilets and, for obviously reasons need to be
 moved.
  Fireplaces are often quite impromptu, we are marking they are
 allowed,
  not where they are.
 
  I agree it would be nice to be able to zoom in and see where fixed
  things are, highly desirable for the people there on site. But
 people
  planning a trip, they just want to know fire places and toilets are
  there, somewhere. Lets help the second group and then, if we can,
 the
  first.
 
  David
  
 
 
 
 
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 Chiang Mai, Thailand
 Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-26 Thread John F. Eldredge
If the business sells small quantities of fuel (automotive or otherwise), but 
not car parts, then in what sense does shop=car_parts apply? Fuel is not part 
of the car.


On March 23, 2015 8:55:57 AM CDT, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote:
 On 23.03.2015 11:02, Dave Swarthout wrote:
  An amenity is something the /general public/ might like or use or
 want to
  visit. These little shops are definitely not that. They sell small
  quantities of fuel, usually 2 or 3 liters, to local motorcycle
 drivers.
 
 That's why the general public might like to visit these shops - or any
 other
 fuel station.
 
 Ok, if it's only 2 or 3 liters, it's not really a fuel station, but
 rather a
 shop=car_parts. Anyway, we don't need to invent a new tag.
 
  And
  the Wiki's definition of shop is: A place selling retail products
 or
  services.  Too brief perhaps but it does allow for a wide range of
 additions.
 
 Cafes, restaurants and theaters sell retail products or services as
 well.
 You can use either of the amenity=* or shop=* keys, you just need to
 stick
 to it.
 
  Meanwhile, until the renderers get smart, people are going to travel
 to
  these shops hoping to fill up their SUVs. This is exactly what I'm
 trying to
  avoid. I do not see why there is so much resistance to adding
 another value
  to the shop keys in existence. There are some pretty strange special
 values
  out there:
  shop=bag
  shop=e-cigarette
  shop=fashion  (??)
 
 One evil cannot justify another evil. I never set the shop=fashion
 tag,
 because it's just a useless synonym for shop=clothes.
 
 -- 
 Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
 Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
 
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Re: [Tagging] Historic tower

2015-03-23 Thread John F. Eldredge
Wouldn't it make much more sense to use start_date for the starting date, and 
completion_date for the completion date?


On March 22, 2015 10:27:00 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Am 22.03.2015 um 15:39 schrieb fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com:
  
  but how to handle buildings which where finished after two/three
 centuries ?
 
 
 start_date according to the wiki is the completion date, or the date
 when the feature became active. FWIW, buildings very often get
 extended, changed, even rebuild, especially those that lasted for
 centuries. We don't have an exact method to store this information in
 OSM (and doing it would probably go beyond our scope and methods, even
 a single wall will often be of different periods). You must see
 start_date as an approximate method to give some  indication  (I
 suggest to use the oldest start date in cases where the building has
 undergone several building phases, or maybe the most significant if
 nothing of the oldest building can be seen)
 
 
 cheers 
 Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

2015-03-19 Thread John F. Eldredge
In American ideom, gas is often a contraction of gasoline, which the British 
call petrol. Given differing terminology, and that such shops may sell propane 
and diesel fuel as well as gasoline/petrol, shop=fuel is probably the best 
solution.


On March 19, 2015 8:21:36 AM CDT, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote:
 2015-03-19 13:46 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com:
 
  I would prefer a different tag as I would not like the lemonade
 table to
  be rendered in the same way as a regular filling station. The tag
 shop=gas
  with subtag would be better.
 
 
 I like shop, but gas is an aggregate state of any element. Why not
 stick
 with fuel?
 
 Janko
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Subject: Re: Deleting private objects in private spaces

2015-03-17 Thread John F. Eldredge
What I mean is, does the software allow you to specify that only objects 
with access permitting the general public, or access=private with only 
specified values of the operator tag, be rendered?


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On March 17, 2015 4:43:07 PM jonat...@bigfatfrog67.me wrote:

Not sure what you mean by “Private Objects”, anything in the DB is capable 
of being displayed, depending on whether the Renderer wants to.  Nothing is 
Private in OSM.







Jonathan

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From: John F. Eldredge
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎17‎ ‎March‎ ‎2015 ‎20‎:‎44
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools







Does the default rendering on the slippy map on OSM's main page show 
private objects? If it does, then there is a loss of privacy. If it 
doesn't, then there is a loss of feedback to mappers.


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On March 16, 2015 7:08:34 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


On 17/03/2015 10:46 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:






Please do not map private objects in private space.  In general if
the object could create a privacy concern, or is just not useful to

a member of the public, please don't add it to the database.  Note

it is fully OK to map facilities within membership or fee based venues,

as long as the facilities are reasonably available to members of the public.




Examples not to map: toilets in homes, employee only toilets in businesses, 
private recycling bins, playgrounds in private homes or day care facilities.





Examples to map: toilets inside DisneyLand, buildings visible from air 
photos, private facilities with a history of public permissive use.




If OSM encourages others to use the OSM data base.. why cannot they add 
data that is 'private' to them?


If renderers were not to render any access=private object then the general 
public would not be aware of these 'private' objects and
those who want them may enter them and configure there own render to show 
'their' data alongside OSM data.


One idea is to only map stuff that is 'publicly viewable'. Some define this 
as 'from a public place' such as a street. However with satellite views 
being publicly available then mapping things that are not viewable from a 
public street becomes possible with more accuracy than that of a visual 
estimation from a public street.


I think that mapping stuff that is not usefull, in some way, is a waste of 
time, public stuff or private stuff. If a person with authority wants to 
map private stuff .. then I think that is OK. The key is the authority.


And then the definition of 'private' is?
Are Universities 'private'? Are bicycle repair stations inside university 
grounds private?
Are private swimming pools in backyards to be mapped as they may be used in 
an emergency to fight fires?
The boundaries between private and public are grey ... and then their is 
community emergency use. Murky waters.


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Re: [Tagging] Deleting private objects in private spaces

2015-03-17 Thread John F. Eldredge
Does the default rendering on the slippy map on OSM's main page show 
private objects? If it does, then there is a loss of privacy. If it 
doesn't, then there is a loss of feedback to mappers.


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On March 16, 2015 7:08:34 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


On 17/03/2015 10:46 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

 Please do not map private objects in private space.  In general if
 the object could create a privacy concern, or is just not useful to
 a member of the public, please don't add it to the database.  Note
 it is fully OK to map facilities within membership or fee based venues,
 as long as the facilities are reasonably available to members of the
 public.

 *Examples not to map*: toilets in homes, employee only toilets in
 businesses, private recycling bins, playgrounds in private homes or
 day care facilities.

 *Examples to map: *toilets inside DisneyLand, buildings visible from
 air photos, private facilities with a history of public permissive use.



If OSM encourages others to use the OSM data base.. why cannot they add
data that is 'private' to them?

If renderers were not to render any access=private object then the
general public would not be aware of these 'private' objects and
those who want them may enter them and configure there own render to
show 'their' data alongside OSM data.

One idea is to only map stuff that is 'publicly viewable'. Some define
this as 'from a public place' such as a street. However with satellite
views being publicly available then mapping things that are not viewable
from a public street becomes possible with more accuracy than that of a
visual estimation from a public street.

I think that mapping stuff that is not usefull, in some way, is a waste
of time, public stuff or private stuff. If a person with authority wants
to map private stuff .. then I think that is OK. The key is the authority.

And then the definition of 'private' is?
Are Universities 'private'? Are bicycle repair stations inside
university grounds private?
Are private swimming pools in backyards to be mapped as they may be used
in an emergency to fight fires?
The boundaries between private and public are grey ... and then their is
community emergency use. Murky waters.




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Re: [Tagging] Blatant tagging for the renderer: bridges abandoned railways

2015-03-09 Thread John F. Eldredge
How does it help mappers see what they have mapped to not show a large 
structure which has been mapped and which is physically present?


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On March 9, 2015 10:16:43 AM Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote:


2015-03-09 16:06 GMT+01:00 ael law_ence@ntlworld.com:


 I have just been asked to give a talk about OSM to a local group
 including Councillors who are impressed with OSM and considering
 using it for Council purposes. There are many historical abandoned
 railways in the area (related to mining) and I think that they will be
 singularly unimpressed if prominent major bridges on the local lanes
 are missing. I suppose that it might be a useful lessson in
 distinguishing the data base from the rendering, but there might be
 sceptics present. Also I want to keep it simple at least for the first
 introduction.

 So is there a bug tracker that I have missed for the stylesheet?

 ael


Using the default OSM-Carto layer for a project isn't very professional.
The job of the default layer isn't to make a map for everyone to use in
their projects, its main job is to help mappers see what they have mapped,
and to guide mappers in their choice of tags.

If you decide to use this layer for different purposes you are guaranteed
to have problems.

Janko Mihelić



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Re: [Tagging] Blatant tagging for the renderer: bridges abandoned railways

2015-03-09 Thread John F. Eldredge
If the bridges are still present, the map should render them even if the 
rails and railbeds on either side of the bridge have been removed. After 
all, we are supposed to map the ground truth, and if the bridge is still 
present, that is the ground truth.


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On March 9, 2015 9:35:59 AM Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org wrote:


Michael Reichert wrote on 2015-03-09 15:27:
 Am 2015-03-09 um 15:22 schrieb ael:
 I have resorted to changing railway=abandoned to railway=disused
 on several occasions just to get mapnik and friends to render
 bridges. Bridges over roads and rivers are major features of relevance
 to tall vehicles and boats, so really should show up on standard
 rendering.

 According to the wiki railway=abandoned applies when the rails have been
 removed, and disused should be used when the rails are still present.

 Not suprisingly this has been raised before, as for instance at
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Railways.

 I don't like tagging for the renderer and normally avoid it, but in this
 case it seems to be necessary to maintain the reputation of OSM/mapnik.

Michael Reichert wrote on 2015-03-09 15:27:
 Would you please change this back?! There also other maps using OSM data
 which rely on good and exact tagging!
 http://openrailwaymap.org

 There is no reason to increase the reputation of OSM-Carto. If it
 renders bad images, they bad and the stylesheet has to be fixed, not the
 data!

+1, please tag what is on the ground,
and railway=abandoned is not rendered on carto by decision, read here:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/542

tom

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Re: [Tagging] route=foot

2015-03-02 Thread John F. Eldredge
Speaking from an American point of view, I tend to think of hiking as a 
wilderness, or at least rural, activity. In an urban setting, I would 
likely refer to walking.


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On March 2, 2015 5:45:13 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:


On 01/03/2015, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
 I just say, that out of the 25,000 objects tagged with route=foot over
 21,000 have been tagged either network=lwn or network=rwn and would be
 better tagged route=hiking as that is the route type for hiking routes.

 In general, I do not like route=foot but I sustain the description on
 the German wiki page and the little passage at the beginning of the
 second table on the English wiki page of route=hiking.

I think that's where the language nuance comes in. To me, hiking is
a special variant of walking. Something linked to sport, or love of
the outdoors. In contrast, route=foot looks like it caters to more
utilitarian reasons, where walking is the mean but not the goal.

The most obvious example being tourist trails to see the attractions
of a city. Tourists would rather do as little walking as possible to
see the different POIs. And it's perfectly reasonable for those routes
to have a network=*. In fact, I'd find any route relation with neither
network=* nor operator=* a bit suspicious.

To sum it up: I feel there's a usefull distinction between route=foot
and route=hiking, they don't have to be merged. However, that
distinction could (as always) do with better documentation.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging established, unofficial and wild campings

2015-02-24 Thread John F. Eldredge
Perhaps there should also be a way to tag unofficial campsites where there 
is evidence someone has camped in the past, but the action is now risky?  
For example, the site is downhill from a slope where the ground is starting 
to split open, meaning that there is a high risk of a landslide in the near 
future.


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On February 24, 2015 4:46:52 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2015-02-24 5:23 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org:

 they're just there because enough people have camped in the same spot.



 +0,9
 actually people (if not completely ignorant) tend to camp in spots that
 are suitable to do so. Those will not be the only possibility, naturally,
 but they will typically provide good conditions (view, even terrain, enough
 space, protected from wind and weather, sunny / shady, accessible, ...), so
 even if those spots are not designated for camping but only put into
 existence by usage, knowing their location might still be useful.


Especially since low-impact campers will usually try to pick a spot that
has already been impacted in an effort to reduce increasing a manmade
impact footprint (assuming we're not talking Tre Arrow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tre_Arrow types), knowing where these are in
advance can be handy.  Such a spot can be found at the hook end of NFD 4420
in the MHNF near http://osm.org/go/WILBqCsE--?m= (which, coincidentally,
someone should check to see who is deleting vast shitloads of tracks in
that forest, since I know there was far, far, far more NFD routes in there
than appear on OSM now, and I know NFD 44 is littered with all kinds of
four-digit branches, largely ungated and open.  I suspect some vandalism or
a potentially accidental deletion may have been in play.

BTW, I based on local knowledge, I recommend* not* attempting to ground
survey this until June or July as Dufur Valley Road (NFD 44) is not plowed
by the Forest Service at all, full length.  The Boy Scouts of America do
plow from Heimrich Street in Dufur, Oregon to NFD 4460 (Camp Baldwin's
driveway) for the livability of their camp ranger, who is there
year-round.  The ~11 mile segment west of 4460 to OR 35 is impassable until
the thaw, often well into June assuming the BSA doesn't plow open the west
end to avoid a  lengthy detour for summer camp troops around on I 84 to
loop back to Dufur and come up from the other side in years with a long
winter.  (Can you tell I've spent way too long on 44?)


 We could be using the informal modifier for places like this, which I
 use on paths as well.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:informal

 Just informal=yes together with tourism=camp_site doesn't sound right
 though, I'd probably use something different as main tag to stronger
 distinguish these features, e.g. leisure=camp_spot or tourism=camp_spot to
 make clear it is a smaller place. When there is a recognizable and
 reasonably secure spot to light a fire you could add additional feature
 like http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dfirepit


I think a freestanding campsite using the established tag (but not within a
campground or caravan site) should suffice.



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Re: [Tagging] Canopy radius for natural=tree

2015-02-23 Thread John F. Eldredge
True. English usually has an adjective followed by a noun. I would guess 
that diameter crown was probably written by someone more familiar with a 
language where adjectives follow nouns.


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On February 23, 2015 3:17:33 PM Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com 
wrote:



diameter crown also doesn't appear to be vernacular English,
unfortunately. Crown diameter or crown spread seem to be more widely
used.  For example, see
http://www.treeterms.co.uk/definitions/crown-diameter, and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_crown_measurement#Crown_Spread_Methodologies

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 24/02/2015 5:09 AM, althio wrote:

 From usage at
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/natural=tree#combinations

 I will suggest you look into:
 145 135 diameter_crown
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/diameter_crown=*


 Missing documentation in the wiki?

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:natural%3Dtree#Size

 The suggestion there is tree_spread .. also undocumented.

 diameter_crown looks to be used by JOSM ... pity they did not document it.

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Re: [Tagging] tag for portages?

2015-02-22 Thread John F. Eldredge
I think the wooden portages he refers to are a series of wooden rollers 
one would roll the canoe along, to avoid having to carry the full weight.


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On February 22, 2015 1:58:34 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


Most portages don't follow the river/creek so stating a side is not
usefull - they need a separate way.

On 23/02/2015 5:23 AM, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
 The portages I'm talking about, people carry their canoe as they walk
 along the trail, so those things aren't relevant. You seem to be
 talking about something different--can you expand on what you mean?

 On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 8:45 AM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com
 mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:

 How about adding the side ?

 portage=left/right/both
 portage:left=*

 Are there any major differences in construction/use ?
 I know wooden portages but there might be other material.

 Any thoughts how to deal with mircromapping, e.g. adding the
 portage as
 own object next to a path. What tags should remain on the highway ?

 Cheers fly

 Am 22.02.2015 um 15:25 schrieb Brad Neuhauser:
  Thanks for the feedback! portage=* was my initial instinct, but
 I was
  starting to second guess after finding the other tags. Cheers, Brad
 
  On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Bryce Nesbitt
 bry...@obviously.com mailto:bry...@obviously.com
  wrote:
 
  This seems like a good place for highway=path + portage=yes
  Because these are definitely still paths (and sometimes
 coincident with a
  land based path).
 
  whitewater=portage_way seems overly specific, as does
 canoe=portage.
 


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking

2015-02-21 Thread John F. Eldredge
If the use of the vehicle storage is limited to certain people, such as 
residents of a particular neighborhood, use access tags as well. It then 
becomes the responsibility of the renderer to check these tags.


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On February 20, 2015 4:34:16 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:


Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 20, 2015, at 9:47 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:



 2015-02-20 13:42 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com:
 So it would become:
 shop=vehicle_storage
 covered=yes
 motorcar=yes
 caravan=yes


 I wouldn't use the shop key but something like amenity, and 
motorcar is a legal access restriction, so should be something different 
as well.


From my earlier post :
~~~
Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager 
facility

shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service.

If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping 
up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use 
isn’t very useful.


~~~

You are right about the vehicle tag - what values do you suggest?

 cheers,
 Martin
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Re: [Tagging] ?=maze

2015-02-20 Thread John F. Eldredge
Given that both the multiple-path and single-path definitions are in use, 
the OSM definition of labyrinth should not exclude either one.


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On February 20, 2015 3:24:42 PM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:


Various new age spiritual communities have a strong definition of
labyrinth: it's one path, no dead ends, leading to a center.
There are dozens in my area.  The term is widespread and common, as is the
feature.

The one path labyrinth is a mappable feature in OSM, even if Merriam
Webster has not caught up ;-).
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Re: [Tagging] ?=maze

2015-02-20 Thread John F. Eldredge
Labyrinths aren't usually defined as having only one way through them. They 
normally have side passages, although, like other mazes, there may be only 
one path that will succeed in taking you all of the way to the exit.


--
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drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On February 20, 2015 11:25:27 AM Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com 
wrote:



The maze/labyrinth distinction is there. When I hear of modern labyrinths,
it's usually in the context of religious/spiritual uses (since there's only
one way, it lends itself to a walking meditation). Mazes are generally like
a recreational puzzle, where you're trying to find your way.  Whether
that's different enough for a separate tag, or just a subtag, I'm not sure.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Some forms of mazes and labyrinths

 1.
 - part of or entire garden (often of a castle or stately home or similarly
 representative building), like this one:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze#mediaviewer/File:Longleat_maze.jpg
 or this one:

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze#mediaviewer/File:Hedge_Maze,_St_Louis_Botanical_Gardens_%28St_Louis,_Missouri_-_June_2003%29.jpg


 These are typically permanent and do last more than a few weeks

 IMHO could be a garden:style
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Garden_specification


 Not sure if this should comprise stone mazes when put in similar context,
 e.g. Donnafugata Castle:

 
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5_VDLUa6b-A/T4LEVS-CuAI/Bxk/9qCCsJ9iyCM/s1600/P1110213.JPG


 or in this Chinese garden:

 
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/ruine-labyrinth-china-peking-yuanmingyuan-18665768.jpg




 2.  seasonal stand alone labyrinths, often made of corn, typical in
 southern Germany but also elsewhere, e.g.
 http://www.maislabyrinth-eutingen.de/bilder?page=2

 one suggestion could be
 amenity=maze as these are dedicated mazes.



 3. Finger labyrinth, engraved mazes

 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth#mediaviewer/File:Duomo_Lucca_cathedrale_Lucques_labyrinthe.jpg


 maybe tourism=artwork and subtype(s)?



 4. Labyrinth mosaics and floor pavings
 E.g. in portugal, Conimbriga

 
http://www.bilder-reiseberichte.de/labyrinthe/bilder/conimbriga-portugal-03-51.jpg

 Or in France, Chartre

 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth#mediaviewer/File:Labyrinth_at_Chartres_Cathedral.JPG


 ___

 FWIW, I have assumed in my contributions that maze and labyrinth would
 be exchangeable (indeed in German they are), but the English wikipedia
 suggests they are not (they claim: maze=several ways through, labyrinth:
 just one way).

 cheers
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] ?=maze

2015-02-20 Thread John F. Eldredge

Here is the definition from my Merriam'Webster dictionary:

1 a : a place constructed of or full of intricate passageways and blind alleys
 
b : a maze (as in a garden) formed by paths separated by high hedges

2 : something extremely complex or tortuous in structure, arrangement, or 
character : intricacy, perplexity

a labyrinth of swamps and channels
guided them through the labyrinths of city life — Paul Blanshard

3 : a tortuous anatomical structure; especially : the internal ear or 
its bony or membranous part


Something with only one possible route isn't complex in structure.

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On February 20, 2015 1:43:59 PM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:


On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:24 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com
wrote:

   Labyrinths aren't usually defined as having only one way through them.
 They normally have side passages, although, like other mazes, there may be
 only one path that will succeed in taking you all of the way to the exit.

Incorrect:
A labyrinth is a single path or unicursal tool for personal, psychological
and spiritual transformation.
http://labyrinthsociety.org/about-labyrinths
What people are talking about mapping is seen as a meditation tool, and has
no side passages.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - key:rubbish=

2015-02-19 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 19, 2015 5:46:46 AM CST, ael law_ence@ntlworld.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 12:33:40PM -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  amenity=elsan_point ?
  While it's opaque in the usa, at least it's not ambiguous.
  or
  amenity=checmical_toilet_disposal_point.
 
 My +1 wasn't for the trade name Elsan. chemical_toilet_disposal_point
 seems obvious and transparent to everyone everywhere?
 
 ael
 
 
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It's lengthy, but the clearest of any of the alternatives I have seen.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - power_supply=intermittent

2015-02-17 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 17, 2015 4:56:26 AM CST, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net 
wrote:
 On Tue, 2015-02-17 at 06:09 +, Jan van Bekkum wrote:
 ...
  
  Trying to invent as few new tags as possible the updated proposal
  would become:
* power_supply=nema_5_15
* power_supply:schedule= [...] - has syntax as defined for
  opening_hours
  Or
* power_supply=nema_5_15
* power_supply:schedule= intermittent
  Or do you feel that power_supply:intermittent=yes is better than 
  power_supply:schedule= intermittent?
 
 I prefer power_supply:schedule= approach, then a range of possible
 values including intermittent. 
 
 David
  
  
 
 
 
 
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If the power supply is given to frequent, unscheduled breakdowns, this is 
useful to know, but can't be covered by a schedule tag.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - key:rubbish=

2015-02-17 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 17, 2015 6:23:00 AM CST, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 What other uses exist in practice in addition to
 *waste=chemical_toilet? *
 For camping we have run into two cases I would like to have covered:
 
 1. Disposal of chemical toilet contents: a place where you carry a
 tank
to empty and clean it
 2. A sink in the street: you drive your RV over it to empty waste
 water
tanks that are fixed in the car
 
 Or do you also want to cover split collection of glass, plastic,
 organic
 material, etc.?
 
 Regards,
 
 Jan van Bekkum
 
 On Tue Feb 17 2015 at 12:16:29 PM Dave Swarthout
 daveswarth...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  I'm lurking but you know where I stand on this tag.
 
  +1 for amenity=dump_station
 
  Cheers,
  Dave
 
  On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 5:50 PM, David Bannon
 dban...@internode.on.net
  wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2015-02-16 at 21:34 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  
 
   The real question is what type of tag would attract rendering
   support.  amenity=dump_station is easier to deal with,
   as it's a single level that maps to the commonly understood
 function
   of a place to dump a sewage holding tank.
 
  Bryce, I agree, my own interest here is I'm heading out on a trip,
 in an
  RV, in a couple of months. I'd like to map these things, need to
 know
  where they are.
 
  My particular interest here is camping and emptying my holding
 tank, but
  there is a huge list of other people who have some other pet need.
 I
  understand the community is (reportedly) reluctant to cater to each
 of
  those needs individually with yet another amenity tag.
 
  Maybe I am wrong, lets see who stands up ?
 
   There is a common icon:
  
 http://www.broomfield.org/images/pages/N331/blue%20heading%20icons_rv%
   20dump.png
  
  Truth is, we'll need a lot of use before the rendering people can
 help.
 
   amenity=waste_disposal + waste=chemical_toilet
   is a nested tag, and far less clear.  Someone searching for a
 preset
   for this might not find it.  And it's not entirely
   clear exactly what the waste is (the toilet or the contents of
 the
   toilet)?
 
  Not sure I agree. If we document it properly, its searchable and
 pretty
  easy to tag. And we say amenity=waste_disposal and the waste is
 XXX.
 
  Agree I'd prefer a high level tag but its not bad like that,
 really.
 
  David
 
 
 
 
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It would also be good to have a tag for a site accepting household toxic wastes 
such as used batteries, cleaning chemicals, leftover paint, and the like.  Here 
in Nashville, Tennessee, USA, such substances are not supposed to included in 
the regular garbage pickup, or flushed down a drain. Instead, there is a single 
facility for the whole city, where such toxic products are supposed to be 
brought by the consumer (given the inconvenience, and the fact that you have to 
pay a $5.00 per visit tipping fee, I suspect that most of this ends up in the 
regular garbage collection anyway).

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

2015-02-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 11, 2015 3:59:45 PM CST, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
 Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool at 
 least here and in the UK.

Technically, a unit that can either cool a building, or heat it by cooling 
outdoor air and transferring heat to indoor air, is a heat pump rather than an 
air conditioner. Heat pumps are significantly more expensive up-front than air 
conditioners, due to their greater mechanical complexity, and are only 
cost-effective as a heating method as long as the temperature to which the 
outdoor air is chilled is above freezing. As the temperature of the outdoor 
condenser approaches freezing, the heat pump changes over to using a resistive 
heating element to heat the indoor air, requiring more electrical power. This 
means that, in some climates, it is more cost-effective to use a heat source 
such as an oil-burning or gas-burning furnace as the winter heat source.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

2015-02-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 11, 2015 6:16:39 PM CST, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 12/02/2015 10:25 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
  On February 11, 2015 3:59:45 PM CST, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool
 at
  least here and in the UK.
  Technically, a unit that can either cool a building, or heat it by
 cooling outdoor air and transferring heat to indoor air, is a heat
 pump rather than an air conditioner.
 
 And the common use term is 'air conditioner'.
 
 Some cooling only units are heat pumps - they work in humid
 environments 
 where evaporative coolers fail. Places in deserts or near deserts use 
 the evaporative coolers (Alice Springs, Australia) while those in 
 tropical areas use heat pumps (Darwin, Australia)... what suits the 
 circumstance gets used.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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If you buy a unit marketed as an air conditioner, rather than as a heat pump, 
and expect to use it for heating as well as cooling, you are likely to be 
disappointed. In the USA, at least, heat pump is the standard marketing term 
for the units that can pump heat in either direction, and air conditioner is 
the standard marketing term for the units that only pump heat from indoors to 
outdoors.

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Re: [Tagging] Access restrictions for shoulder lanes?

2015-02-09 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 9, 2015 4:32:36 AM CST, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:00 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:
 
  In the USA occasional sections of even Interstate highways are open
 to
  bicycles,
  where no equivalent route exists. There's some argument to tag these
 as
  bike paths to avoid the tag soup of lanes,
  and ensure the (unusual) situation is perfectly clear.
 
 
 This is not a sensible assumption and I'm frankly getting a little
 sick of
 having to mythbust this every few weeks just because 98% of America
 happens
 to live next to the few, largely urban, exceptions to the norm.  It's
 not
 anywhere as rare as you make it out to be.  The Federal Highway
 Administration indicates that the default for any way in the US unless
 otherwise locally defined, even freeways, is bicycle=yes
 http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bicycle_pedestrian/guidance/design_guidance/freeways.cfm.
 Bicycles even qualify for the HOV lane unless it presents a hazard.
 
 Even in car-centric regions like California, the number of freeway
 miles
 that ban bikes is greatly overshadowed by the vast majority of miles
 that
 go by the default of allowing bicycles.  In my experience, with a few
 goofball exceptions largely in the midwest (such as, say, various
 sections
 of US 75, US 412 and (to a far lesser extent) I 40 in Oklahoma that
 have a
 minimum speed limit, yet is the only sensible route and in some cases
 the
 only physically possible route, and thus the ban is both routinely
 ignored
 and rarely enforced for the same reason it isn't enforced on farm
 equipment
 (which poses a far greater hazard as this equipment often spans
 multiple
 lanes) either; however I do try to tag anything that isn't a bike
 route and
 has a minimum speed limit as bicycle=no per Oklahoma's legal
 idiosyncrasy),
 there's very few segments except for the most urban settings where a
 ban is
 even a sensible suggestion in the first place.  Wyoming could be
 retagged
 right now if it isn't already:  There's not one spot in the freeway
 system
 in that state that bans bicycles
 http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/state.cfm?ID=51#state.
 
 Can we finally bury this myth that bicycle=no is somehow even remotely
 the
 norm for American freeways?  That said, regardless of the restriction,
 it's
 a good idea to tag bicycle=* and foot=* explicitly on trunk and
 motorway
 routes as there still seems to be widespread misconception on this and
 could interfere with ideal routing if excluded.
 
 
 
 
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According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-motorized_access_on_freeways, 
14 US states out of 50 allow bicycle use on Interstate highways. Wyoming is the 
only state that allows it state-wide.  So, 72% of US states don't allow 
bicycles on Interstates. I don't have the percentages by highway mile 
available, but I would call a 72% majority the norm.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reception Desk

2015-02-07 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 7, 2015 10:41:17 AM CST, Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com 
wrote:
  Amenity is the best fit for this tag.
 
 
  I disagree. (Usually that just means I didn't find anything
 better)
 
 +1
 Amenity is very vague in general (), and a lot of things can be
 marked as such. So I'd prefer to use it only when it's an obvious
 choice or there is nothing better.
 What about using office?
 I was also surprised to discover that there was not key for booth in
 OSM. (And of course all currently available booths ended in amenity
 :) ) Shall we maybe introduce it?
 
  As
  this tag is always going to be used within another entity I think we
 should
  rather look towards something like indoor tagging or other subtags.
 In
  addition using amenity for reception desk would for example prevent
 you from
  placing it on the node of the amenity and use one node for both.
 
 Not to defend the amenity key, but I wonder if there is a need to tag
 the reception if the whole object (including the reception) deserves
 just a single node.
 
 Cheers,
 Kotya
 
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I suspect what was meant was an amenity node contained within a larger entity 
that was mapped as something other than amenity.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reception Desk

2015-02-06 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 6, 2015 4:10:23 PM CST, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net 
wrote:
 On Fri, 2015-02-06 at 13:58 +0100, Janko Mihelić wrote:
  Why not tourism=reception_desk? We have tourism=hotel,
  tourism=camp_site, tourism=information, it's only logical to use the
  same key.
  
 I think the idea of =reception_desk could be applied much more widely
 than just tourism. Commercial sites, mining sites, the list would be
 quite long. So, I'd vote for amenity=
 
 David
  
  
 
  
  
  
  
  
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Agreed. The amenity tag is better, as otherwise we would need a separate tag 
for each industry.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reception Desk

2015-02-06 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 6, 2015 9:37:20 AM CST, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:
 On 06.02.2015 12:16, Dan S wrote:
  However it occurs to me that it would be useful to have some way of
  indicating _what_ it is the reception for. For example, if it was
 part
  of a site relation*, then a role like role=reception would connect
  it to the larger entity in a meaningful way. That might be a
 suggested
  tagging option...
 
 I believe this is not necessary as long as the reception is contained
 in
 only one outline of a relevant feature (hotel, motel etc.), which will
 cover almost all cases. Of course, for the special cases you could use
 a
 relation, but that should be limited to those cases.
 
 What I consider a bit odd, by the way, is the amenity key. Receptions
 are usually not amenities by themselves, but instead part of an
 amenity.
 Perhaps a new key for this kind of sub-feature would be in order?
 
 
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One circumstance where the relation would be useful would be if you were 
mapping an office building, and wanted to map both the reception desk for the 
entire building, and also reception desks for individual office suites within 
that building. This is a common circumstance when a building contains offices 
for several different companies.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

2015-02-03 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 3, 2015 3:05:53 AM CST, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 On Feb 2, 2015 3:11 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
 wrote:
 
 
  On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 12:54 PM, John F. Eldredge
 j...@jfeldredge.com
 wrote:
 
  Once again, we are divided by a common language. In American usage,
 a
 cistern is a holding tank for captured rain water, used as an
 alternative
 to a well in areas where no city water supply is available. They often
 take
 the form of an underground pit with a waterproof lining.
 
 
  I've also seen them on the coast of Alaska in above ground tanks to
 catch
 rain water.
 
 Above ground is common in the midwest for various reasons (freezing,
 contamination, maintenance, excavation of solid rock) that often
 arise.
 
 
 
 
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It seems like an above-ground tank would be more prone to freezing, not less. I 
have lived in two houses that had cisterns, although neither one was still in 
use.

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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

2015-02-03 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 3, 2015 3:45:48 PM CST, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 3/02/2015 5:03 PM, David Bannon wrote:
 
  In the context where this discussion came up, camp_sites, I'd
 suggest
  waste=chemical_toilet is the one we are interested in. The
  waste=excrement mentions boat. Boat facilities are distinctly
 different,
  usually relying on a large hose connecting the two tanks and a pump.
 
  Chemical_toilets (in my experience) are a concrete 'bowl' about half
 a
  square metre where the material in question is either poured or
 pumped.
 
  Should we start by improving the documentation there ?
 
  David
 
 
 
 There is no documentation of the waste= values .. if you want to add 
 them go ahead. Anything there would be an improvement.
 
 I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets .. 
 http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/
 
 They use On a campsite this will probably be marked as a Chemical 
 Disposal Point or CDP. On some sites, it might appear as an Elsan 
 Point. Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So I'd include
 CDP.
 
 Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp ground. Lots of power
 in 
 words.
 
 
 
 
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I think dump station is probably intended to refer to facilities intended to 
receive the sewage from chemical toilets on board recreational vehicles, and 
from man-portable chemical toilets (basically a bucket with a seat and a 
tight-fitting lid). These concrete chemical toilets you describe would be a 
facility of the campground, and a honey truck would come to them, rather than 
the toilets being transported to a dump station.

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Re: [Tagging] RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

2015-02-02 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 1, 2015 3:10:13 AM CST, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 1/02/2015 7:47 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
  There is much that needs to be done to bring OSM up to speed
 regarding 
  camping facilities IMO. We have only a very few tags 
  tourism=camp_site, tourism=caravan_site, and in a stretch, 
  leisure=summer camp to describe the myriad of facilities out there.
 
  AFAIK, there is no way to distinguish a primitive camp site from one
 
  that caters to motorized tourists, or one that offers kitchen 
  facilities to customers. In New Zealand many campgrounds have a
 shared 
  kitchen area, which they refer to as an ablution block, that 
  includes assorted pots and pans and a source of hot water. A very
 nice 
  feature indeed.
 
 ? Umm according to wiki and corresponds to my understanding abolition
 is 
 cleaning oneself. So showers? Nothing to do with preparing or cooking 
 food.. They couldbe in the same structure .. but an abolition block
 may 
 not have food facilities.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablution
 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ablution
 
 
  I don't have any suggestions but want to wish you luck on getting
 your 
  tagging resolved.
 
  Cheers,
  Dave
 
 Thanks.
 
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Ablution is cleaning oneself. Abolition is abolishing (ending) some practice, 
such as abolishing slavery.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

2015-02-02 Thread John F. Eldredge
On February 1, 2015 3:21:44 AM CST, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 31/01/2015 10:49 AM, S Volk wrote:
 
  Hi,
  I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen some 
  cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made many 
  cisterns  on Africa (also water_wells).
 
  Question:
  How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for 
  landuse=reservoir; rather a small man made reservoir, on ground 
  level or escavated, for either natural or treated water)?
 
  Or, in addition, since there are tags for man_made=water_well, 
  man_made=water_tower, wouldn't it be worth to have a tag like 
  man_made=cistern?
 
  Thank you in advance, regards,
  Sérgio (user:SergioAJV)
  svo...@hotmail.com
 
 
 
 A 'cistern' has a mechanism for keeping a water level stable, commonly
 
 used in toilets. And OSM has no tag for that feature (yet). They are 
 connected to a water supply with some pressure behind it.
 
   I'd think you want to map the provision of water?
 If it is 'drinkable' then the generic amenity=drinking_water would
 suit?
 If non potable then amenity=watering_place ?
 
 If you don't know if it is drinkable then assume not, so use 
 amenity=watering_place ? Maybe add a note ?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Once again, we are divided by a common language. In American usage, a cistern 
is a holding tank for captured rain water, used as an alternative to a well in 
areas where no city water supply is available. They often take the form of an 
underground pit with a waterproof lining.

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Re: [Tagging] Lifecycle concepts, REMOVED

2015-01-28 Thread John F. Eldredge
On January 28, 2015 7:09:01 AM CST, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote:
 On 28/01/2015 13:05, Richard Welty wrote:
 
  i changed them to highway:unbuilt, rather than deleting them so
  that they would stop rendering and wouldn't get added back in later.
 
 
 I guess that that makes sense here in a fix the mapper kind of way 
 (I've certainly done similar things), but generally I wouldn't have 
 thought that things that were once proposed but are now never going to
 
 be built belonged in OSM at all.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Andy
 
 
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Well, you also have the status proposed, but no start date set, which would 
fit some subdivision maps I have seen. I am not sure how one would tag that.


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Re: [Tagging] patron saints

2015-01-27 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 01/25/2015 10:29 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote:

Probable all christian churches (buildings) and most chapels are dedicated
to patron saints.
E.g. the Basilica Sancti Petri (Saint Peter's Basilica) in Vatican City is
obviously dedicated to Sanctus Petrus (Saint Peter). As in this example, the
patron saint is often part of the common name of a church. But this example
also shows that an automated extraction is almost impossible.


This depends upon which branch of Christianity you are talking about. 
Many Protestant denominations do not recognize the existence of saints 
in the Roman Catholic sense of no-longer-living humans who serve as 
intermediaries between living humans and God.  We colloquially refer to 
some of the early church leaders as saints, referring to Saint Peter or 
Saint Paul, but feel that prayers should be directed to God, not to any 
lesser being.


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Re: [Tagging] Shop for watches

2015-01-25 Thread John F. Eldredge
On January 25, 2015 9:01:44 AM CST, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote:
 On 25.01.2015 11:46, Severin Menard wrote:
  I did not find anything on the Map Features regarding shop selling
 watches,
  what is quite common both in Europe and South America (at least).
 
 shop=jewelry
 
 Watches came out of use when people got mobile phones. The only
 remaining
 reason to wear watches is to show off. That's why all jewelries sell
 watches, and you'll hardly find any shop that sells nothing but
 watches.
 
 -- 
 Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
 Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
 
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I tried, briefly, using my cell phone instead of a watch, and found it less 
convenient to pull out my phone to check the time, versus glancing at my wrist. 
It is still common to see people wearing watches. I now wear a smartwatch, 
meaning that I can check who called or texted me without having to pull out and 
unlock my phone.

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Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

2015-01-24 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 01/24/2015 10:28 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote:



2015-01-24 17:20 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com
mailto:acr...@gmail.com:

Are you an idiot? I mean really.


I hereby request a ban of this individual from this mailing list and I
definitively support an OSM-wide ban.


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Agreed.  Ad hominem attacks aren't a suitable way to discuss OSM issues.

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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging road illumination quality

2015-01-17 Thread John F. Eldredge
You could use a light meter to measure how bright the light is. That isn't 
the only factor in the suitability of the lighting, but it is objective.


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On January 16, 2015 11:18:33 AM Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:


I would like to enter illumination quality for bicycle infrastructure
(cycleways) in OSM.
This is unfortunately a thorny issue, as there is no easy way to measure in
an objective way the quality of the illumination.
Has anyone already looked into this?
I could invent something along the lines of the smoothness tag, which in my
view faces a similar problem of not being objectively quantifiable.
I am thinking of something like lit=no|yes|poor|sufficient|good

Obviously, if it were to work for cycle paths it could also be use for
other highways.

Any suggestions welcome

Volker



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Re: [Tagging] waterway=wadi problem

2015-01-15 Thread John F. Eldredge
I would recommend expanding the definition of intermittent streams to 
include not only streams that have a regular, seasonal water flow but also 
streams in desert areas that exist only when a rare storm comes along. The 
topography is the same, the tendency of water to run downhill is the same, 
only the frequency of rainfall is different.


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On January 15, 2015 3:13:38 AM Christoph Hormann chris_horm...@gmx.de wrote:


On Thursday 15 January 2015, johnw wrote:

 A wadi is a place where flash floods occur. It is not an intermittent
 river - it isn’t really seasonally wet, and doesn’t provide any real
 expectation that water will be present (except deep underground) -
 because they are located in places where rain itself is unexpected
 for most of the year.

Well - that would be a useful concept of a wadi but it has two problems:

* current use of the tag is very different from that, you can see that
quite well when you look at the taginfo map:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/waterway=wadi#map

the uses in Europe for example are probably almost always seasonal.

* sporadic waterflow is very difficult to determine for the mapper.
This is especially true for northern Africa where climate got a lot
drier in the last few thousand years and as a result there are many
permanently dry valleys that still look like being formed by waterflow
but that have not seen significant waterflow in the last hundred years.

My suggestion would probably be to stop rendering waterway=wadi in a way
implying waterflow, encourage mappers to use intermittent/seasonal
where this is known and reserve waterway=wadi - despite the then
misleading key - for valleys where waterflow is unknown.

--
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Boundary Relations. What's a subarea used for?

2015-01-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
In the same manner, in some US states, cities and towns are subordinate to 
counties. In some other US states, such as Virginia, towns are subordinate 
to counties but cities are on the same administrative level as counties.


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On January 11, 2015 2:42:44 PM André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:


Hi,

Look at the Belgium relation
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/52411 and, while hiding the
subareas (in left pane), try to figure with that map the *administrative
tree* (regions, provinces) using the borderlines.  You won't.
Now look at the subareas and something you will notice is that Brussels
is not inside any area. It has got its own independent status. Not
obvious at all from borderlines.
Now, trying to figure the tree, you can use your knowledge of Belgium or
try to right-click on each subarea to open its link in another browser
tab and you will find that Belgium is divided in two regions: Flanders
in the North and Wallonia in the South.
Now what about the other subareas?  Try to jigsaw puzzle them again and
you will fit Flemish Community in the North, French Community in the
South and German community to the East. And so what about Brussels
again? It's Flemish-and-French bilingual.
So,  Belgium=Flanders+Brussels+Wallonia regions.
and Belgium=(Flemish+bilingual+French+German) communities
Similarly, United Kingdom=England+Wales+Scotland.
I may miss a few UK details, but that's because ... it has no subareas
to see.
And I recall a guy from Munich.  Wasn't his problem that Munich is not
part of its Land?
Isn't the Munich problem like Brussels (please do not focus the thread
on that if it's wrong).

And the same process can be repeated at each boundary level down the tree.

Moreover, it is straightforward for a consumer program like OSM.org to
use the subareas to draw the outline of the regions, provinces, etc.
inside the country map or to do other things like measuring borderlines.
Why the heck would we remove the subareas and cause those programs to
stop working, instead of adding the subareas which is really
straightforward too?

Now, there is a very interesting property of subareas making a nice program.
Choose a boundary relation. Pick its subareas members one by one and put
their borderline ways (members) in a bag.  Now, remove those ways that
appear twice in the bag. What have you got?  The borderline of the
chosen relation.
For example, by combining that way the borderlines of the UK subareas
England, Wales and Scotland, you get the borderline of United Kingdom.
Idem down at any level.
So, it looks like masochism somehow to tag borderlines for anything else
than the lowest level. From it, one may have that program compute the
borderlines of every relations upwards.
But I guess software having to build a country boundary that way would
have a hard CPU time.
The idea that would come to mind is to keep the borderlines as a cache.
But we have the cache already made manually. Why not simply let the
mappers use the program to build the borderlines manually? They don't
change often.

That program can work two ways.  Either to compute borderlines. Either
to check that the intricate borderlines match the so easily tagged,
error proof subareas.
There is presently no real QA program for borderlines. Here it is. Ad
it's s easy...
Start checking Belgium and France, Osmose!

It's a really simple program, a very few tens of lines. I didn't write
exactly that but that was close (computing total length of boundaries in
a province or country). But, shame on me, I misplaced the source :-(

I once read on some server a French text wondering whether the right
solution is subareas *or* borderlines.  As it often happens, the answer
is hard to find because the question is wrong. It is not or but
*and/or*. And the answer is and, both.
Also wondering which makes tagging boundaries the easiest.  Certainly
creating the boundary relations with just simple subareas linking them.
Then start adding borderlines at the lowest level.  And run the check
program above working at progressively higher levels.  That programs
detects incomplete borderlines loops and hence dangling lines near which
more have to be filled in. Visually checking with the spoken above
rendition that there are no unwanted holes also checks the subareas tree.
That's how we, Marc, André and Patrick (yes, MAP!) made the boundaries
of South Belgium.

One thing is certain.  Should anyone remove our subareas because, as
said, he does not understand, it would be like stealing a worker's tool
and I would stop any boundary work immediately.

I won't write too much in one article but I'll add this.  What's that
aversion against redundancy?
Redundancy used as crosscheck is used in many place. For example, TCP,
which is the transport protocol of the Internet, uses redundancy

Re: [Tagging] correct access tagging for tourist attraction

2015-01-03 Thread John F. Eldredge
That is how I had interpreted access=destination also. Just because it has 
a specific legal meaning in the UK doesn't mean the tag can't be used 
elsewhere in the world.


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On January 2, 2015 4:25:23 PM Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote:


I always thought access=destination meant you can go through a road with a
car, if your destination is that road. You can't use that road to go to a
different road.

2015-01-02 17:01 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com:

 Happy new year

 Am 31.12.2014 um 19:05 schrieb Greg Troxel:
 
  johnw jo...@mac.com writes:
 
  perhaps use the =destination tag instead of =private on the road you
 are supposed to use.
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access

 Please, no.

  I agree.  There's also access=customers that I use for parking lots.
  access=destination is supposed to be some legal notion in the UK.   In
  the private facility case, it's really a question of some places being
  signed for no access and some being welcoming, but it a
  with-permission-of-landowner kind of way.

 I still prefer access=permissive as I often take short cuts by foot
 across these private roads without being a customer.

  Another approach is to use access=no for the ones you shouldn't use (and
  for which almost no one among the public gets permission)

 That is access=private and not access=no

  and
 
access=permissive
 
  for the one the public should use.  It's a little off; presumably going
  there at night is not ok.  But as a
  represent-the-world-with-what-we-have-now approach, it seems like a
  pretty good fit.

 +1

 access=permissive is the one we need here, access=destination has some
 legal aspect.

 The other roads would be access=private.

 Still be careful with access=* as it might depend on your traffic mode
 and foot/bicycle/horse/ski might have different rules.


 cu fly

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Re: [Tagging] Change of rendering: place of worship and, terminal without building tag

2015-01-03 Thread John F. Eldredge
The situation in India could mean that a congregation was meeting on that 
site, and planned to construct a building there, but had not yet done so.


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drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 3, 2015 5:03:10 AM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


On 3/01/2015 4:56 PM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
 Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 04:45:24 +0100
 From: Andreas Gossandi...@t-online.de
 To:tagging@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Tagging] Change of rendering: place of worship and
terminal without building tag
 Message-ID:m87okr$iep$1...@ger.gmane.org
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

 landuse=religious
 Which still nobody knows what it is supposed to be used for...

I too don't know what it is to be used for. However Australian
Aborigines have 'sacred sites' that could be tagged that way. Ayres Rock
springs to mind. One scrared site was vandalised... the road that goes
past it has been closed for at least 30 years. So the sites are
important, but they may not want the public to know their location due
to the possible vandalism. I've come across a site in India that was
tagged for a church IIRC .. but no building was present.

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Re: [Tagging] correct access tagging for tourist attraction

2015-01-03 Thread John F. Eldredge
So a reasonable solution would be to tag roadways as access=private if they 
can only be used by specific people such as residents or maintenance 
vehicles, and access=destination if the general public can use them to 
enter a particular area, but can't use them as a through route.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 3, 2015 11:03:36 AM Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote:


Typical situation in Poland is that only residents may drive on some roads
in housing estates - not everybody who wants to reach this place.

So I am using vehicle=private - despite the fact that it is quite different
from
private as in only one person may use this road. vehicle=destination
is not a correct tagging here.


2015-01-03 17:48 GMT+01:00 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net:

 John F. Eldredge wrote:
  That is how I had interpreted access=destination also. Just because
  it has a specific legal meaning in the UK doesn't mean the tag can't
  be used elsewhere in the world.

 Absolutely - this is true of pretty much every highway= value and they,
 too,
 have been adapted for use elsewhere.

 I'd echo the call not to use access=private on housing estates. Last year I
 was working on a (commercial) project to plan thousands of delivery routes
 in the urban US, using OSM data and routing software. The only serious
 issue
 we encountered was exactly this: the router couldn't plan journeys to
 estates where each road was tagged with access=private.

 We could have told the router to ignore access=private, but this would have
 created wrong routes in other situations. Using access=destination would
 have prevented this.

 cheers
 Richard





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Re: [Tagging] lanes=-1 especially in Canada

2014-12-30 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 12/29/2014 04:16 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

I rolled the map-roulette wheel, and found a series of highways in
Canada marked with lanes=-1, all part of a CANVEC import.

I see 17,943 uses of this value: it's less popular than 5 lanes but more
popular than 6.
What does it mean, if anything?


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It may well mean what it says, a one-lane road.  Some rural areas in the 
USA still have one-lane roads, with occasional wider spots where one 
vehicle can pause to allow a vehicle going the other direction to pass 
by.  Given how sparsely-populated some of the northern regions of Canada 
are, I would not be surprised to find some one-lane roads, and some 
extensive areas with no roads at all.


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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Re: [Tagging] lanes=-1 especially in Canada

2014-12-30 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 12/30/2014 03:16 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

On 12/29/2014 04:16 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

I rolled the map-roulette wheel, and found a series of highways in
Canada marked with lanes=-1, all part of a CANVEC import.

I see 17,943 uses of this value: it's less popular than 5 lanes but more
popular than 6.
What does it mean, if anything?


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It may well mean what it says, a one-lane road.  Some rural areas in the
USA still have one-lane roads, with occasional wider spots where one
vehicle can pause to allow a vehicle going the other direction to pass
by.  Given how sparsely-populated some of the northern regions of Canada
are, I would not be surprised to find some one-lane roads, and some
extensive areas with no roads at all.



I just re-read this, and realized that the value was negative 1, not 
positive 1.  Negative 1 probably represents some editor program's way of 
tagging lanes as unknown.


--
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

2014-12-16 Thread John F. Eldredge
The existing tagging scheme supports various levels of government, from local 
up through national.


On December 16, 2014 2:50:48 AM CST, Simone Savio simone.savio...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 The issue is that in Italy a government office, for example,
 corresponds to the
 prefecture.
 An office, such as that of the Informagiovani, is very different
 because it
 operates at a local level and it is a specific office for young
 people.
 
 Simone
 
 2014-12-16 3:35 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:
 
  working on a proposal for civic landuses, and a subtag for
 building=civic
  for all kinds of governmental buildings and services.
 
  Your input is appreciated.
 
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dcivic
 
  javbw
 
 
   On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:30 AM, John F. Eldredge
 j...@jfeldredge.com
  wrote:
  
   On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:
   Hi propose
  
  
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
   
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth
  
  
   becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in
 Italy
   such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in
 English.
  
   Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
  
  
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   What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept
 exists in
  English.
  
   Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as public office;
  again, the concept exists in English.
  
   --
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   Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
   Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
  
  
  
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Re: [Tagging] Moveable objects tagged as building=*

2014-12-16 Thread John F. Eldredge
Another common use for such temporary buildings is as the office at a major 
construction site. They may sit in one place until the construction project is 
completed, or may be relocated for different phases of the project. Once the 
project is completed, the construction office trailers are removed.


On December 16, 2014 8:30:31 AM CST, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:44 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
 
  Semi temporary buildings are usually called portables. Schools I
 have been
  to in the US will have them in place for several years, though they
 lack a
  foundation and can be moved away whole or in sections as a truck
 trailer -
  similar to a mobile home. Although the method is not similar, the
 office
  bus I wrote about is used in a similar manner. Perhaps building =
 portable?
 
 
 Well, wondering if portable is starting to become a misnomer for just
 plain cheaping out, since everyplace I've seen 'em (mostly southern
 California and western Oregon) park 'em once, then use them until they
 rot
 and collapse 4 decades later.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

2014-12-15 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:

Hi propose

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth

becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy
such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.

Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.


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What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept exists in 
English.


Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as public office; 
again, the concept exists in English.


--
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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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Re: [Tagging] Distinction between amenity=restaurant and fast_food

2014-12-11 Thread John F. Eldredge


On December 11, 2014 6:15:17 AM CST, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
  Restaurants only serve meals, it is not possible to go there and
 only
  have a drink.
 
 That really depends on the restaurant. A at least in Bavaria there are
 a 
 lot of traditional restaurants where you can just get a beer. Also
 very 
 common when they are next to sports clubs.
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Re: [Tagging] Distinction between amenity=restaurant and fast_food

2014-12-11 Thread John F. Eldredge


On December 11, 2014 6:15:17 AM CST, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
  Restaurants only serve meals, it is not possible to go there and
 only
  have a drink.
 
 That really depends on the restaurant. A at least in Bavaria there are
 a 
 lot of traditional restaurants where you can just get a beer. Also
 very 
 common when they are next to sports clubs.
 __
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 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Distinction between amenity=restaurant and fast_food

2014-12-11 Thread John F. Eldredge
I would not be surprised to find some establishments where the emphasis is on 
food up through mid-evening, but the kitchen closes earlier than the bar does, 
leaving the final hours of operation to offer only beverages and perhaps some 
precooked snack food.

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Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance

2014-12-08 Thread John F. Eldredge

On 12/08/2014 06:50 AM, ael wrote:

On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 10:29:21PM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote:

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:






And tags for other mine entrance types?

Would it not be better to have

man_made=mine_entrance
type=adit etc



I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit
relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I
understand that in other parts of the world it's common.


It's in common use in Cornwall and I guess other areas of the UK with
a mining history.

Despite the philological origin of the word, it normally refers to
the complete tunnel rather than just the entrance (in modern usage).
Maybe the Roman use of entrance was more emcompassing.

I agree that the average mapper might not know the term, but then such a
person is unlikely to map an adit, or even recognise one.



Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word
'adit'?


That doesn't seem quite right as above. mine_access_passage is the best
I can do OTTOMH, but omits the implication that it is roughly
horizontal. Or since I guess it will almost always be a node, then
mine_access_passage_entrance??  Of course, that suggests adit_entrance
as well.

ael


Whenever I have encountered the term, it referred to passages that were 
horizontal, or at least close enough to horizontal that one could walk 
along them, as opposed to shafts which meant vertical passages.  It 
certainly referred to more than just the entrance to the mine.


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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

2014-12-06 Thread John F. Eldredge
True. There could be chemical contamination which would not be removed by 
filtering or boiling, and which would render the water unsafe to drink.


On December 5, 2014 4:05:09 AM CST, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2014-12-05 0:42 GMT+01:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
 
  water_potable = yes/no If not known you don't tag. Then it will some
  default action possibly based on location. Some may want tags
 'boil',
  'filter','filter+boil' ...
 
 
 
 
 
 values like boil or filter could go under a key like
 suggested_water_treatment. I think it bears some risk for the mapper
 to
 add information like this to a water source where the water is
 officially
 classified as non-potable.
 
 cheers,
 Martin
 
 
 
 
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