Re: [Tagging] Fuzzy areas again: should we have them or not?

2020-12-24 Thread stevea
gement-free questions, offer relevant perspective...), or be gone. I'd like to see this list extract some value from this discussion (I'm going to go take a refreshing shower). I hope we can gain some value from the topics discussed. In my opinion, we should not dwell on the mechanics of what has happened here, but rather its potential fertility, rather than its actual futility. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Definition of lake/pond as applied to stream/plunge pools

2020-12-23 Thread stevea
We have a spot on the ocean shore, right at (below, at sea level) the entrance to a state park, in an urban area: it's known locally as "the toilet bowl" and it's node/3370641047. It's tagged hazard=yes (best I could do at the time, I suppose; I tagged it in 2015) and "dangerous area, no

Re: [Tagging] Cartpath RFC

2020-12-23 Thread stevea via Tagging
Thank you immensely for doing your (our) homework, Minh! SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Definition of lake/pond as applied to stream/plunge pools

2020-12-23 Thread stevea
times requiring a permit from state Fish & Game department, sometimes not). Somebody wants to charge me money for a permit to fish on private land, I'll pass, thanks. I realize that in some parts of the world, though, "that's how angling happens." Two whole cents, SteveA __

Re: [Tagging] Fuzzy areas again: should we have them or not?

2020-12-23 Thread stevea
seye. > On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 at 09:43, stevea wrote: > “Names in nature” is an interesting, complex, challenging, yes, even > strategic topic. I think we can get closer to “better,” here on this list, > with good, respectful, effective dialog. I look forward to that. > > In

Re: [Tagging] Fuzzy areas again: should we have them or not?

2020-12-21 Thread stevea
On Dec 21, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Anders Torger wrote: > Cluttering could be a problem, but is an easy thing to solve with filters. As > I edit i national parks now I have this huge national park polygon covering > all work, which renders as a flat although half-transparent color in JOSM. > It's

Re: [Tagging] natural=fell not rendered, alternatives?

2020-12-21 Thread stevea
ke a point to say that any wiki which does that should say so explicitly. Good luck in your endeavors! SteveA On Dec 21, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Anders Torger wrote: > I just discovered a strange(?) thing with the "natural=fell" tag which I > missed at first: on the wiki page the

Re: [Tagging] natural=fell not rendered, alternatives?

2020-12-21 Thread stevea
On Dec 21, 2020, at 7:10 AM, Tomas Straupis wrote: > 2020-12-21, pr, 16:52 Anders Torger rašė: >> But what to do if the things you want doesn't >> really fit into what OSM currently is and strives to be... > > We are ALL OSM community. If somebody tells you that "I am OSM and > only A is right"

Re: [Tagging] natural=fell not rendered, alternatives?

2020-12-21 Thread stevea
ders this, or that, or in a particular way. But wishing that renderings are this or that really isn’t what OSM is about. Entering true-to-the-ground map data is. Rendering is a bonus you might or might not get to your heart’s desire. If it is, that’s pretty neat when it happens, isn’t it?

Re: [Tagging] natural=fell not rendered, alternatives?

2020-12-21 Thread stevea
On Dec 20, 2020, at 11:39 PM, Anders Torger wrote: > I'm doing further mapping of Swedish national parks, now in the mountains, > and I have noted that natural=fell (habitat over tree line) is not rendered. > > Looking into why it seems that OSM-Carto implementors want more specific >

Re: [Tagging] Rapids (whitewater) on rivers --> Hazards

2020-12-16 Thread stevea
ay. Or Ex-Wye-Zed vs. Ex-Wye-Zee. It's a big world. Lots of long, straight roads, lots of long, windy roads. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Rapids (whitewater) on rivers --> Hazards

2020-12-16 Thread stevea
this proposal a starting point." I'm saying "it's at least a good one, I'll even go 'excellent.'" I believe the more voices we hear, the better. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-15 Thread stevea
To share a local varietal, we have "Henry Cowell Redwoods State Park" and we have "Henry Cowell Redwoods State Park (Fall Creek Unit)," slightly non-contiguous but managed together. In the real world (too) this sort of "grouping between things that belong together or are part of a same thing"

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-15 Thread stevea
That's a good question, Brian. On its face, it would be more consistent to keep this in the place=* key. I like both of your choices, as the concept doesn't really have a single word to describe "lakes" in the plural as distinct from the singular (as archipelago does for island). The

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-15 Thread stevea
+1. Joseph's suggestion is a fine example of "OSM can and does coin new tags on occasion." Adding a nice boost, there is a suggestion that "similar" tagging be used as an example of how to define / use / document the new tag. Great! On Dec 15, 2020, at 6:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: >

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-15 Thread stevea
That is stated even better than I meant to state. Yes, JOSM's relation editor is "the best there is." On Dec 15, 2020, at 1:21 AM, Peter Elderson wrote: > > stevea : > (Personally, I find JOSM’s relation editor to be one of its most elegant > features for a data s

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-15 Thread stevea
people DO improve OSM.” Then, the thread started to veer off the road again. Keep it constructive, people, please! SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-14 Thread stevea
Fascinating thread, fascinating activities it seems to have given rise to! I applaud this dialog as I enjoy it. > On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:22 PM, Ture Pålsson via Tagging > wrote: >> 14 dec. 2020 kl. 22:30 skrev Anders Torger : >> >> Cool! It would be really nice to see a demo :-) > >

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - crossing=priority

2020-12-13 Thread stevea
te semantic on them, contradicting their existing meaning in our map. Maybe I (we) should be discussing this in the proposal's Talk page rather than in this mail-list, I don't know. SteveA > On Dec 13, 2020, at 11:25 AM, ipswichmapper--- via Tagging > wrote: > > https://wiki.openstre

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-13 Thread stevea
ere. That starts with clear explanations, good intentions, skilled people and time. This project does amazing things as we give ourselves these simple ingredients. SteveA > On Dec 13, 2020, at 3:26 AM, Peter Elderson wrote: > > My answer only targets the question in the subject. >

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-13 Thread stevea
mapper thinking about and trying to solve the same things) about coming up with solutions are good next steps. Eventually, you might put a proposal together to share with the wider community (like us, here). This is OSM. It's a process of always improving. Because OSM can improve, and of

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-13 Thread stevea
t-to-British-English word if that's possible) can open up possibilities for OSM can be the map Anders dreams of. I think it can. With explanation, some process being followed and some time, it can. Yes, it IS nice when OSM has distinctions where distinctions are actually distinctions in the re

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-12 Thread stevea
w our map data have grown, it is how our map data continue to grow. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

2020-12-12 Thread stevea
ently as far as renderers are concerned. It is easy to get confused, confusion exists in the map: semantics are blurry in some cases. This gets better with worldwide consensus, over years. This (how we learn to best tag and render) is an ongoing long-term OSM process. As a mapper, "tag accu

Re: [Tagging] edit war related to tagging of a bus-only major road

2020-12-09 Thread stevea
Michael: I suggest you explore our wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:busway . Best, SteveA > On Dec 9, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Michael Tsang wrote: > > Dear all, > > I'm working with some roads in Central area in Hong Kong. Des Voeux Road > Central is considered one of the mo

Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

2020-11-25 Thread stevea
year. Some even advertise that they are free: it may be that an insurance certificate / card must be provided, rarely, though sometimes, even this is not required, especially for elderly / senior citizens. I hope this helps. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. water

2020-11-22 Thread stevea
We're generating light, not heat. A lot of people (Simon, Phake, Dave F, Clay, Mateusz, Christoph, Brian, Seth, Richard, more...) are quite right here. Let's listen to each other. We're all much MORE in agreement than disagreement. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging Cycle Route Relations vs. Ways

2020-11-17 Thread stevea
quality (recent enough, accurate enough…) to enter into OSM. If they are not, don’t import them. That’s all I’m saying here. I offer you my sincere apologies if I misinterpreted you. SteveA On Nov 17, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Dave F via Tagging wrote: > On 17/11/2020 18:56, stevea wr

Re: [Tagging] Tagging Cycle Route Relations vs. Ways

2020-11-17 Thread stevea
eso via a changeset comment that identifies that most or all of my data are from a single source (like one layer of satellite imagery, for example). SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging Cycle Route Relations vs. Ways

2020-11-16 Thread stevea
ay I ask how you came about your edit on this particular element of OSM?”) Good dialog here. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging Cycle Route Relations vs. Ways

2020-11-16 Thread stevea
ce of those data. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - electricity=*

2020-11-14 Thread stevea
Outstanding! Here we see Lucas well-separating "meaning spaces" apart at the same time he's both looking towards the future as he offers others to sensibly extend the table given the structure he has started it with. Bravo, sir. Good things grow like this, with all the right ingredients in

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - electricity=*

2020-11-14 Thread stevea
) take the same care to design well-constructed syntax / tagging schemes. Our map data deserve the most crisp syntax, fully devoid of ambiguity, that we are able to devise. SteveA On Nov 14, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Lukas Richert wrote: > I've been thinking more about this and I think the

Re: [Tagging] Deprecate water=pond?

2020-11-14 Thread stevea
Joseph, Kevin, Paul, Clifford, Martin, Peter, Tom, Brian, Andy, Graeme...everybody else here: I love these conversations, thank you. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging becoming more mature

2020-11-12 Thread stevea
harmony to continue. This can be difficult, and even (like here) sometimes must be explicitly spelled out, but with clarity, we can understand how to solve the difficulties of such dialectical ambiguities. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list T

Re: [Tagging] Deprecate water=pond?

2020-11-12 Thread stevea
up as one) allows us, as other tagging schemes do, to apply tags sparsely if only sparse details are known about a feature to be mapped. If greater detail is known, the syntax structure specifies how to denote it. That’s an excellent example of one important part of good syntax design. SteveA

[Tagging] Tagging becoming more mature

2020-11-11 Thread stevea
nd ways to keep both going strong, whether it's moving more to formal proposals (or not), other more formal methods (or not) and keeping great, inclusive, respectful dialog alive as we do so. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Deprecate water=pond?

2020-11-11 Thread stevea
cific topic deserves. While I don't write this to discourage posts to this list (I don't, as this list is a valuable place to discuss), I have also noticed a trend towards formal proposals. "Ponds" seems like an excellent candidate for one. SteveA

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - electricity=*

2020-11-11 Thread stevea
niffing up my, um, house). Really, there isn't any way to know, without getting creepy - snoopy. SteveA > On Nov 11, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Lukas Richert wrote: > > If I understood you correctly, this would fall under grid-connected houses > that I mentioned in the last example. This w

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - electricity=*

2020-11-11 Thread stevea
electricity:source (which introduce at the same time), I haven't any specific suggestion on a key, tag or namespace, but I think it important to mention what I haven't seen in this discussion. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-09 Thread stevea
Anders gets back to me and we continue to hash out what I hope are understandings, with his permission I'll re-post those "results" back up here. I HOPED that this wasn't too tedious, thanks for letting me know that being wordy is (so

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-09 Thread stevea
understanding of how to enter data into OSM and perhaps see it render on renderer-A or renderer-B, perhaps not). As I'm not on the board nor do I have any more "pull" (influence) over how the "higher level" tasks you identify play out in the future, let's subtrac

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-08 Thread stevea
Oops, "dearth" of data, not "death." ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-08 Thread stevea
On Nov 8, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Anders Torger wrote: > I believe the processes available are limited in terms of fixing structural > problems. You say you have long experience in open projects, that is a fantastic launchpad from which to join OSM and improve it, even criticize it. I read that

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-08 Thread stevea
reetmap in their connect fitness web > app, they also have Google and HERE as alternative layers. The vector > openstreetmap layer is no way showing near what actually is in the current > database, and there's various artifacts. A huge lake where I live is missing > alltogether (probably because the polygon is made in some way that vector > engine can't understand). I think this is just one example what happens with > the fragmented landscape of OSM map providers and that our own maps are not > able to fulfill the needs of typical applications. Garmin as being hugely > popular in Sweden among fitness and outdoor people showing OSM in a rather > bad way. That's not helping the widespread view here that OSM is becoming > "obsolete". Thank you for your opinions. Anders, we want to help. Let's take bite-size chews here, so we can masticate and swallow, without choking. Rome wasn't built in a day. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-07 Thread stevea
me going in OSM. We all have our favorite issues we might solve, may you find that focusing your efforts results in you (and others) achieving what you wish to see. It can be done, I'll attest. Certainly, this takes effort and often head-scratching, lengthy, sometimes difficult interactions with others and learning new things, yet those are part of the magic, charm and rewards I find contributing to OSM. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Basic cartography features missing, why?

2020-11-07 Thread stevea
kills like wiki documentation, or even just simply that you know the hours of when the coffee shop opening now happen an hour earlier on weekdays, please, contribute what you can to OSM. As I do so, I find the rewards are amazing. May you, as well. SteveA California OSM Volunteer since 2009 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period

2020-10-21 Thread stevea
On Oct 21, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Peter Elderson wrote: > towing_penalty=no means your car is towed away for free? In Nederland, towing > always comes with a penalty, even if you don't want your car back. > > Maybe a tag for consequences should be introduced. I suggest or_else=cargone. What I mean

Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period

2020-10-21 Thread stevea
tic richness of the situation. A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of something like towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=station areas

2020-10-17 Thread stevea
were talking about railway=station areas, yes? SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Should the tag proposal process force voters to vote for an option?

2020-10-12 Thread stevea
pport for good ideas that are well-stated and agreeable. That actually happens. And when it does, good for us. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=station areas

2020-10-09 Thread stevea
es...) in OSM? Two? Four? Six? Eight? It's more than one, for sure, and that's OK. That's OSM. We have newer data and methods and older data and methods simultaneously, it does get better. There are seldom magic bullets, it often takes work for these things to evolve. Yet,

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-03 Thread stevea
n mid-to-late October. Even Wikidata says that shop=farm is sometimes called a "farm stand" by locals. It's good to eat local, it's good to map local! SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-03 Thread stevea
along the coast between Half Moon Bay and Castroville, you see a dozen or more of these. I think they (or something very much like) are somewhat frequent in much of rural, populated Earth. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread stevea
to account "what already is" in OSM, and if you seem to need to "tag your way around this" you might be on the wrong track. But if you find a certain harmony with existing tags, keep working in that direction as it is often a more correct track, especially for people to understa

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-30 Thread stevea
rather than "this is all burned"). A Tasking Manager could be used for this, but it needs such a polygon to identify the area of interest. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-30 Thread stevea
not saying that the data is useless. > I just think it is better put elsewhere. I respect and welcome intelligent discussion on which data belong “in or out” of OSM, and why (or why not). Perhaps this topic is (or is becoming) partly or mostly exactly that. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-30 Thread stevea
he former, as the former become available. And not just for tracing / better mapping with newer imagery (as above), but for “map data consumers” (hikers…) alike (as above). SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-30 Thread stevea
ree that "sharing" such data, as OSM does, is both valid and valuable (to some) data to map. After all, we don't want to "hold back people from using (such data) in creative, productive, or unexpected ways," do we? Thanks for great feedback here, SteveA __

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-27 Thread stevea
We'd do well to improve these, but I'll agree with anybody who says "this is difficult work." SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-27 Thread stevea
, that is interesting and relevant! So, preliminary results are that such tagging is rare, but it does happen. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-27 Thread stevea
t; (and by contrast to landuse=forestry), we do use the natural=wood tag for "predominantly wooded areas where there is no active logging" or logging is known to not be permitted. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-24 Thread stevea
I very much appreciate your reply, Rob; thanks. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-24 Thread stevea
e-population / re-building will NOT take place, landuse as well). It's wonderful to be able to ask and receive answers here (thank you), SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-24 Thread stevea
eate where substantial "re-mapping" almost certainly must take place. Thank you for your quick reply! SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Large fire perimeter tagging?

2020-09-24 Thread stevea
e other hand, if it isn't appropriate that we map any of this, please say so. Thank you, especially any guidance offered from HOT contributors who have worked on post-fire humanitarian disasters, SteveA California (who has returned home after evacuation, relatively safe now that this fire is 100% co