Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. water

[walker.t.bradley]

The needs you post make perfect sense, but as a non-developer, I can't actually 
translate that into a project or estimate time/budget.  If someone else can, 
that would certainly make it easier.  Clearly someone trying to impose 
something on OSM carto is a non-starter and against the community aspect of 
OSM, but I'm sure that within OSM-carto there are some pain points that could 
be smoothed out with limited investment.

-Original Message-
From: Christoph Hormann  
Sent: Tuesday, 24 November, 2020 15:12
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. 
water



> walker.t.brad...@gmail.com hat am 24.11.2020 12:19 geschrieben:
> 
> Is there a wiki page with a "wish-list" of things, with approximate costs 
> where developers could post?  There is likely a disconnect between those 
> willing to pay, and those who could actually scrounge up the money.  Thus, 
> once consensus on what changes are needed has been achieved, we can scrounge 
> for money?

There is certainly a deficit in comprehensive communication of the big tasks 
that are currently not being addressed in and around OSM-Carto.  Part of the 
reason for that is that most OSM-Carto maintainers are doing their work there 
as a hobby and are not very interested in paid OSM-Carto work specifically.  
That also means someone paying a developer for implementing something for 
OSM-Carto does not guarantee you that this will make it into OSM-Carto.  The 
maintainers still reserve the right to review changes for their suitability for 
the project.  See also

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/393808

where i previously discussed this being an issue for financing of OSM-Carto 
work.

But lets not beat around the bush too much - here from the top of my head a 
quick list of tasks that could be beneficial for improving the quality of the 
style:

* data preprocessing for low zoom level rendering of waterbodies and landcover. 
 I have done some work on that, some of it was already in production use on 
openstreetmapdata.com, not all of it is currently open source but there is 
extensive writeup on my blog and website.
* importance rating features based on their context.  This includes the widely 
discussed bay and strait rendering matter but also things like airports, 
populated places, peaks etc.
* boundary relation preprocessing.  This includes things like topologically 
consistent line simplification, topological simplification, unification of 
different forms of coastal boundary representation.
* aggregation and importance rating of highway and railway networks based on 
connectivity functions for higher quality low zoom rendering.  There is quite a 
lot of pre-existing work on the aggregation part but much of this does not 
scale or is robust enough for use on a global level of course.
* redesigning the POI and label layers of OSM-Carto for consistent 
prioritization.  There are multiple different levels of radicalism at which 
this could be approached.  This is the most important technical todo within 
OSM-Carto IMO that does not have direct use also beyond that style.

Regarding the volume of work required for these - that depends a lot on how 
you'd define the scope of work in each of the cases.  In those cases where no 
or very little pre-existing work exists it is probably wise to start with a 
proof-of-concept development before actually planning and working on a 
production ready implementation.

-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. water

[walker.t.bradley]

I’ve seen the micro grants, I’m not talking about funding from OSM Foundation.  
Basically if someone could identify a solution to some of the problems that 
come up in this tagging thread like “updating how X rendering process works”, 
and the community agrees, an appropriate developer(s) could be hired to fix 
that, which would enable other things.  For example more complete and 
systematic local languages translation, “better” cartographic representation 
(two weeks ago conversation), more complicated water tags (a frequent topic 
here), whatever.  The only “back-end cleanup” proposal I see is the denied 
osm2pgsql development 

 . 

 

OSMF states that they prefer enabling volunteers, vice paying for work, and 
these are capped at 5k EUR.  There are ways that work could be directly paid 
for, which would better enable the entire community.

 

From: Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging  
Sent: Tuesday, 24 November, 2020 13:19
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Cc: Mateusz Konieczny ; 'Tag discussion, strategy and 
related tools' 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. 
water

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020 would kind of 
illustrate

what kind of money was requested for OSM-related projects.

 

Some of that was pure or nearly pure software development, though most of them

are either funded or were a quite poor proposals.

 

Nov 24, 2020, 12:19 by walker.t.brad...@gmail.com 
 :

>Why is nothing in that direction in OSM-Carto right now? Because no one so far 
>has invested the volunteer time to do so an no one has invested the money to 
>pay someone qualified to do so either. And a large number of people consider 
>the status quo as good enough. "The good enough is an enemy of the great" is a 
>very common pattern in map style development.

 

Is there a wiki page with a "wish-list" of things, with approximate costs where 
developers could post? There is likely a disconnect between those willing to 
pay, and those who could actually scrounge up the money. Thus, once consensus 
on what changes are needed has been achieved, we can scrounge for money?

 

Walker KB

 

-Original Message-

From: Christoph Hormann mailto:o...@imagico.de> > 

Sent: Tuesday, 24 November, 2020 11:11

To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> >

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. 
water

 

 

Dave F via Tagging mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> > hat am 24.11.2020 01:24 geschrieben:

 

Yes, but the demand was still made &

 

So what? Someone (an individual, not 'OSM-Carto' as a whole) made a suggestion 
(and not a demand) that turned out to not be such a good idea and therefore did 
not achieve consensus.

the solution of writing competent

code to enable the proposal was never implemented, so your point is?

 

I am not sure what you mean here. One of the problem of tagging boundaries on 
ways and one of the main reason why the idea did not reach consensus is that it 
does not solve any of the rendering problems w.r.t. boundaries in substance.

 

Code for processing OSM boundary data for cartographic applications exists. Not 
all of it is open source and much of it is just rough implementations not 
robust enough for routine use. And there are of course very different 
cartographic problems to solve w.r.t. boundary rendering. Why is nothing in 
that direction in OSM-Carto right now? Because no one so far has invested the 
volunteer time to do so an no one has invested the money to pay someone 
qualified to do so either. And a large number of people consider the status quo 
as good enough. "The good enough is an enemy of the great" is a very common 
pattern in map style development.

 

--

Christoph Hormann

http://www.imagico.de/

 

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Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. water

[walker.t.bradley]

>Why is nothing in that direction in OSM-Carto right now?  Because no one so 
>far has invested the volunteer time to do so an no one has invested the money 
>to pay someone qualified to do so either.  And a large number of people 
>consider the status quo as good enough.  "The good enough is an enemy of the 
>great" is a very common pattern in map style development.

Is there a wiki page with a "wish-list" of things, with approximate costs where 
developers could post?  There is likely a disconnect between those willing to 
pay, and those who could actually scrounge up the money.  Thus, once consensus 
on what changes are needed has been achieved, we can scrounge for money?

Walker KB

-Original Message-
From: Christoph Hormann  
Sent: Tuesday, 24 November, 2020 11:11
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. 
water



> Dave F via Tagging  hat am 24.11.2020 01:24 
> geschrieben:
> 
> Yes, but the demand was still made &

So what?  Someone (an individual, not 'OSM-Carto' as a whole) made a suggestion 
(and not a demand) that turned out to not be such a good idea and therefore did 
not achieve consensus.

> the solution of writing competent
> code to enable the proposal was never implemented, so your point is?

I am not sure what you mean here.  One of the problem of tagging boundaries on 
ways and one of the main reason why the idea did not reach consensus is that it 
does not solve any of the rendering problems w.r.t. boundaries in substance.

Code for processing OSM boundary data for cartographic applications exists.  
Not all of it is open source and much of it is just rough implementations not 
robust enough for routine use.  And there are of course very different 
cartographic problems to solve w.r.t. boundary rendering.  Why is nothing in 
that direction in OSM-Carto right now?  Because no one so far has invested the 
volunteer time to do so an no one has invested the money to pay someone 
qualified to do so either.  And a large number of people consider the status 
quo as good enough.  "The good enough is an enemy of the great" is a very 
common pattern in map style development.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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