Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
This is getting very metaphysical, and tags have been invented to be as practical as possible for the mapper [1]. If someone sees an old anchor on the ground, one of the first things that's going to pop into their mind is historic=anchor. That has happened 40 times, separately by several mappers all over the world (including me). I just wanted to document this tagging because it made sense to me. Historic=memorial + memorial=anchor has been used 20 times, but my tagging instinct said that maybe it's better to have a use case for anchors that are not memorials. If people think memorial=anchor is better, that's ok with me. But i'm not ok with creating a complicated ontology with tourism=artwork because no one will naturally come to that tag while on the field. Flowerbeds and fountains are also made just to be nice, but it's not tagged as artwork, because it doesn't look like artwork, and doesn't quack like artwork. Janko [1] - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Duck_tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 23:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:51, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > One has a plaque saying it is the birthplace of some important figure. > > The plaque is a historic memorial, the house it is attached to is just a > > house (as is the house next door). > > we’ll be mapping the plaque anyway Yep. Because in that place the plaque is the historic object, not the house. > (and we’ll typically not adding information like who has slept in this > house in 1876 to the building object). > I didn't realize John Lennon was born that long ago. Both houses are probably historic, testimonies of a certain time and > context (socio economic conditions, style, technology, ...) > There is nothing of general historic significance about the house John Lennon was born in other than the fact he was born in it. If we were to open the tag up to everything that any historian anywhere might collate in statistics then every house ever built would count as historic. We need a sense of proportion here. And we need to remember that history is just one Planck time before the present, but most of it goes unrecorded. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
sent from a phone > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:51, Paul Allen wrote: > > One has a plaque saying it is the birthplace of some important figure. > The plaque is a historic memorial, the house it is attached to is just a > house (as is the house next door). we’ll be mapping the plaque anyway (and we’ll typically not adding information like who has slept in this house in 1876 to the building object). Both houses are probably historic, testimonies of a certain time and context (socio economic conditions, style, technology, ...) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:41, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:29, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > It's a memorial or it's not. If it's not a memorial, and there just > because it looks > > nice (somebody else brought up that possibility, not me) it's artwork. > > I don’t find a definition of art, work of art, where something like an > anchor without a story has room. Can you point me to one? > It's late, and I'm having difficulty understanding what you're getting at. So I've had to guess. The original poster asked about an anchor that was put in place because it looked nice, not because it had any historical significance. I have no idea if there are any anchors like that, but I've seen all sorts of things (like chimney pots) placed on the ground for display because they look nice, so anchors are a possibility. If it's there solely because it looks nice, the only way I can think of mapping it is artwork. If it's not specially crafted to be displayed then it's not a sculpture (I'm aware of something specially crafted to look like three links in a ship's chain so that actually is a sculpture) or an installation. The closest type of artwork I can think of to describe a repurposed anchor is "found art" (also known as "found object" and "objet trouvé"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Found_object Maybe somebody who is actually an artist (I'm not) has a better term for "anchor on display for no other purpose than that it looks nice." -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:23, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > To say that something is historic means that it is important or > significant > > in history. > > importance and significance are quite relative and I have the impression > you are imagining the bar much higher than what we usually apply for > historic. > I'm trying to avoid people using historic as a synonym for "old" or for "disused." There's more to it than that. Or should be. Take two, adjacent terraced houses, identical in appearance because they were constructed at the same time by the same builder to the same plans. One has a plaque saying it is the birthplace of some important figure. The plaque is a historic memorial, the house it is attached to is just a house (as is the house next door). > An anchor or cannon which have nothing special about them and > > are not commemorating something of historical significance are just > > artwork. > > a cannon which is still in the context where it was once used can always > be seen as historic, Yes. But the original poster was talking about anchors. Anchors that were not attached to ships, or the historical object would be the ship itself. > it doesn’t need to be important or of exceptional significance (e.g. by > having a plaque attached, being dedicated to something/someone, having > appeared in a historic text, having belonged to someone famous/powerful, > etc.). > For a cannon, MAYBE. Often not. Like the anonymous cannons on the lawns of US courthouses that could have come from anywhere. Or be modern reproductions. "History" means that it has been recorded in writing. That's why the time before writing was invented is known as "pre-history." If there is no written record of its provenance and significance then it is NOT historic, just old. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
sent from a phone > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:29, Paul Allen wrote: > > It's a memorial or it's not. If it's not a memorial, and there just because > it looks > nice (somebody else brought up that possibility, not me) it's artwork. I don’t find a definition of art, work of art, where something like an anchor without a story has room. Can you point me to one? Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
sent from a phone > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:23, Paul Allen wrote: > > To say that something is historic means that it is important or significant > in history. importance and significance are quite relative and I have the impression you are imagining the bar much higher than what we usually apply for historic. > An anchor or cannon which have nothing special about them and > are not commemorating something of historical significance are just > artwork. a cannon which is still in the context where it was once used can always be seen as historic, it doesn’t need to be important or of exceptional significance (e.g. by having a plaque attached, being dedicated to something/someone, having appeared in a historic text, having belonged to someone famous/powerful, etc.). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 7. Sep 2020, at 22:15, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > Possibly tourism=artwork > > I’d much rather go for historic=anchor Why historic=anchor rather than memorial? I can understand historic=cannon as it's a standalone item. Anchors are intended to be used with a ship attached to them, so an anchor in isolation is either a memorial or artwork. > than for tourism=artwork > these are rarely public art > It's a memorial or it's not. If it's not a memorial, and there just because it looks nice (somebody else brought up that possibility, not me) it's artwork. Use whichever fits the circumstances best. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 21:54, Janko Mihelić wrote: > pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 22:15 Paul Allen napisao je: > >> In that case it would not be historic, just a random anchor put there >> because >> it looks pretty. Possibly tourism=artwork, but I'm not sure what would >> be a suitable artwork_type. It's not really an installation or a >> sculpture. >> It's really "found art" in the broader definition of the term. Has/had >> another purpose but has been appropriated as art. >> > > Why do you think it's different from a historic=cannon? > Because a cannon might not be historic, either, just a piece of found art. To say that something is historic means that it is important or significant in history. An anchor or cannon which have nothing special about them and are not commemorating something of historical significance are just artwork. Yes, there will be overlaps. There are always overlaps when we try to categorize the real world. Nevertheless, there's a big difference between an anchor somebody bought at a scrapyard so he could display it and the anchor that belonged to the famous ship whatever, sunk in the battle of whatever. The difference can usually be determined from an accompanying plaque or sign. If there is something about the provenance of the object, or it says what the object commemorates, it's probably historic. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
sent from a phone > On 7. Sep 2020, at 22:15, Paul Allen wrote: > > Possibly tourism=artwork I’d much rather go for historic=anchor than for tourism=artwork these are rarely public art Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 22:15 Paul Allen napisao je: > In that case it would not be historic, just a random anchor put there > because > it looks pretty. Possibly tourism=artwork, but I'm not sure what would > be a suitable artwork_type. It's not really an installation or a > sculpture. > It's really "found art" in the broader definition of the term. Has/had > another purpose but has been appropriated as art. > Why do you think it's different from a historic=cannon? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 21:05, Janko Mihelić wrote: > pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 21:28 Paul Allen napisao je: > >> Sounds like a memorial to me. So maybe historic=memorial + >> memorial=anchor. >> > > Anchors are often not a memorial, just an anchor put somewhere because it > looks nice. > In that case it would not be historic, just a random anchor put there because it looks pretty. Possibly tourism=artwork, but I'm not sure what would be a suitable artwork_type. It's not really an installation or a sculpture. It's really "found art" in the broader definition of the term. Has/had another purpose but has been appropriated as art. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 21:28 Paul Allen napisao je: > Sounds like a memorial to me. So maybe historic=memorial + > memorial=anchor. > Anchors are often not a memorial, just an anchor put somewhere because it looks nice. You can search for images of "anchors on display" [1]. I guess this would be a better image: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kotwica_SS_Pozna%C5%84.JPG Most of them aren't even marked, they just stand there. Something like a historic=cannon [2]. [1] - https://www.google.com/search?q=anchor+on+display=isch [2] - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dcannon ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:01, Janko Mihelić wrote: > Historic=anchor would be an anchor from a historic ship displayed as a > public memorial. An example: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arizona_anchor_bolin_plaza.JPG > Sounds like a memorial to me. So maybe historic=memorial + memorial=anchor. Historic and heritage stuff is rendered in greatest detail by the Historic Place map, so it would be an idea to check with them. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page
Historic=anchor would be an anchor from a historic ship displayed as a public memorial. An example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arizona_anchor_bolin_plaza.JPG There aren't many of these tags right now, 38 in total. I found info on about 10 of those, and they all fitted the description above. I intend to put this description and picture on the historic page, in the Values table: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:historic#Values Everybody ok with this? Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
