Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

> > Apparently the Red Cross have released an app (using Google  Maps) that
> > tracks the emergency shelters and also indicates which ones can't accept
> > new evacuees because they are full.
>
> > PS , I haven't seem the Red Cross app but the reviews are not good, with
> > one review describing it as "half baked", which, if true, would make it,
> in
> > my opinion, worse than useless.
>

How does "somebody" from OSM (Foundation?) approach International Red Cross
& suggest / offer / recommend that they use OSM as the basis for their app?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Greg Troxel]

Nick Hocking  writes:

> t seems that the Emergency shelter situation for Hurricane Irma is very
> dynamic with over 200 new shelters being opened in just one day.

Do you mean "places for which there has not previously been a plan to
use them as a shelter"?

> Apparently the Red Cross have released an app (using Google  Maps) that
> tracks the emergency shelters and also indicates which ones can't accept
> new evacuees because they are full.

Do they provide a data file that others can just download and use?  That
seems possibly available given the arcgis usage of the map on their
site.

I realize none of this can possibly change for this storm, but it seems
that the larger struggle to solve these issues is about encouraging open
data in sane formats that can lead to easier interworking, by separating
publishing data and providing sites/code that can use it.  Essentially
GTFS for disasters.

> Therefore I think we do need a tag for "status" which would have values of
> "closed" "open" and "full".

Why do you think that this information, perhaps changing hourly, belongs
in the main database?  I realize we are moving to faster pipelines from
database to users (e.g. with osmand live, where I can navigate with data
that's from roughly 24h ago).

If we are going to have open/closed/full, then why wouldn't we change
restaurants to indicate that they long waits vs being able to walk in?
This seems like a massive expansion in scope.

> PS , I haven't seem the Red Cross app but the reviews are not good, with
> one review describing it as "half baked", which, if true, would make it, in
> my opinion, worse than useless.


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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

t seems that the Emergency shelter situation for Hurricane Irma is very
dynamic with over 200 new shelters being opened in just one day.

Apparently the Red Cross have released an app (using Google  Maps) that
tracks the emergency shelters and also indicates which ones can't accept
new evacuees because they are full.

Therefore I think we do need a tag for "status" which would have values of
"closed" "open" and "full".

PS , I haven't seem the Red Cross app but the reviews are not good, with
one review describing it as "half baked", which, if true, would make it, in
my opinion, worse than useless.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Warin]

On 09-Sep-17 01:10 PM, Blake Girardot wrote:

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Nick Hocking  wrote:

Eric wrote

"  This is an open database and we all "garden" the data to make sure that
the
information is correct."

I think that information critical to safety needs a higher level of
verification than just peer review.
So the argument comes down to what is critical information.

I normal times, road geometry on maps should not be critical to drivers
because we expect them to use eyes/brain ahead of navigation prompts.(and
yes I know this doesn't always happen)

In times of emergency, certain information just must be correct and can not
be allowed to be tampered with.


As someone who works in times of emergency, I can tell you OSM is the
goto dataset for many formal and informal response groups around the
world.

It is consistently a good dataset, sometimes where no other datasets
can be located and is used very often.

The quality is a known average good and the #opendata nature is always
a plus. The crowd based nature makes it one of the best databases of
local amenities, schools, medical in many parts of the world.

OSM is used at every level of the disaster management cycle from the
UN and EC/EU organs to local groups with a van load of food.

OSM data gets automatically pushed to #HDX the main UN OCHA data
distribution point, it is that important and in demand.

Everyone on this list is making that dataset as good as it is. thank you.

Respectfully,
blake

Some have the OSM data rendered as maps on their phones, the data is 
available even if the phone network is down, thus it is available even 
when contact with 'officialdom' is lost. In an real emergency OSM data 
maybe the only source of information that some have.


I can see what your on about Eric, but I think your being overly 
pessimistic.


People in emergency situations when out of their trained responses do 
look and think.


Practised fire evacuations get people to use the nearest fire exit,

even when in a real fire there is smoke between them and that fire exit 
(yes I have seen it in a real situation, no one died then).


---

I once staid in a YHA that was an underground nuclear fall out shelter 
.. I don't think that one will change in a hurry.


Most emergency shelters around me have not changed other than when the 
original was decommissioned.





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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Blake Girardot]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Eric wrote
>
> "  This is an open database and we all "garden" the data to make sure that
> the
> information is correct."
>
> I think that information critical to safety needs a higher level of
> verification than just peer review.
> So the argument comes down to what is critical information.
>
> I normal times, road geometry on maps should not be critical to drivers
> because we expect them to use eyes/brain ahead of navigation prompts.(and
> yes I know this doesn't always happen)
>
> In times of emergency, certain information just must be correct and can not
> be allowed to be tampered with.
>

As someone who works in times of emergency, I can tell you OSM is the
goto dataset for many formal and informal response groups around the
world.

It is consistently a good dataset, sometimes where no other datasets
can be located and is used very often.

The quality is a known average good and the #opendata nature is always
a plus. The crowd based nature makes it one of the best databases of
local amenities, schools, medical in many parts of the world.

OSM is used at every level of the disaster management cycle from the
UN and EC/EU organs to local groups with a van load of food.

OSM data gets automatically pushed to #HDX the main UN OCHA data
distribution point, it is that important and in demand.

Everyone on this list is making that dataset as good as it is. thank you.

Respectfully,
blake











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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Eric wrote

"  This is an open database and we all "garden" the data to make sure that
the
information is correct."

I think that information critical to safety needs a higher level of
verification than just peer review.
So the argument comes down to what is critical information.

I normal times, road geometry on maps should not be critical to drivers
because we expect them to use eyes/brain ahead of navigation prompts.(and
yes I know this doesn't always happen)

In times of emergency, certain information just must be correct and can not
be allowed to be tampered with.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Sep 2017, at 01:15, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> I see 1 as squarely what "social_facility=shelter" should mean.
> 
> 2 I think "emergency=shelter" is good, and it's really not at all the
> same thing as social_facility=shelter.
> 
> 3 I would call emergency=weather_shelter or something.
> 
> 4 I would call emergency=fallout_shelter
> 
> But my big point is that 1/2 are not actually that related and should
> not be combined.


+1

cheers,
Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Greg Troxel]

Eric Christensen  writes:

> On 09/07/2017 11:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag,
>> rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility
>> shelter in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd.
>
> I thought it was an odd choice, as well, but once I thought about it, it
> sort of made sense.
>
> The definition of a social_facility is "a feature that provides a social
> service."[0]  If you go further down, a social_facility=shelter is
> defined as "[a] facility that provides temporary sleeping facilities or
> refuge from exposure to the environment."  Isn't that what an emergency
> shelter is doing?

To respond to another point: the fact that authorities publish updated
lists of planned shelters from time to time is not that important.  Lots
of things change, and when they do, we update the map.  We don't put
expiration dates on roads because the government has not made a formal
commitment to maintain the road next year.  We just take them out when
they go away.


I see four different things:

  1) a "homeless shelter" that is generally open, for people that do not
  have a home, especially when it is cold.   An example:
 http://www.pinestreetinn.org/

  2) a place that authorities have a plan (or past practice) to use to let
  people sleep, when the people normally have a home but it's flooded or
  has no power and hence no heat and/or running water, etc.  These are
  typically schools or other public buildings and you absolutely cannot
  randomly show up during normal times and try to sleep there.
  Decisions to open and close are too fast for OSM editing and data
  fetch cycles.

  For these, notions of pet=yes can apply, because there's a plan a
  rules for what would happen.  It would be normal for such a shelter to
  be open for a single 48h period every 5 years, at least around me,
  more or less.

  3) a place where you can go if there is a tornado, that is generally
  accessible without a formal activation (probably; not really around me
  but others have talked about this)

  4) a "fallout shelter", which is sort of like 2 but for nuclear war,
  and maybe without the official opening part.

I see 1 as squarely what "social_facility=shelter" should mean.

2 I think "emergency=shelter" is good, and it's really not at all the
same thing as social_facility=shelter.

3 I would call emergency=weather_shelter or something.

4 I would call emergency=fallout_shelter

But my big point is that 1/2 are not actually that related and should
not be combined.


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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Eric Christensen]

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On 09/07/2017 11:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag,
> rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility
> shelter in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd.

I thought it was an odd choice, as well, but once I thought about it, it
sort of made sense.

The definition of a social_facility is "a feature that provides a social
service."[0]  If you go further down, a social_facility=shelter is
defined as "[a] facility that provides temporary sleeping facilities or
refuge from exposure to the environment."  Isn't that what an emergency
shelter is doing?

- --Eric

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Eric Christensen]

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On 09/07/2017 11:12 PM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> Eric wrote   "Why would you delete data that is still valid and
> useful?"
> 
> 
> My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people
> will say "ooh - they'll be the same as last time" and of course
> they probably won't be the same as last time and we may route
> people to a wrong place, with possible tragic results.

I would say that shelters probably would be the same as last year.
It's very difficult to find structures that meet the criteria for
being shelters in the first place so thinking that you're going to
play a shell game with them really isn't going to happen.  The
shelters that I used to deal with are still shelters today some
fifteen years later and they were shelters for at least a decade when
I came into the job.

> I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked
> , unusable, until specifically activated by authorities, which I
> agree should be well ahead of time, so long as people know that
> they will not be usable until a state of emergency is declared.

I believe that's a given being that it's an emergency shelter.  That
said, I think we can use the 'note' key to make some sort of
declaration to that extent as I suspect there are some public tornado
shelters in the Midwest (US) that are available 24/7 whereas out here
on the east coast many hurricane shelters are stood up on an as-needed
basis.

> I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way
> by anyone other than the authorities. This brings back the old
> arguments about read only data in OSM.

One could make the same argument about roads or any other data.  This
is an open database and we all "garden" the data to make sure that the
information is correct.  Google has a closed database and it's a pain
for an "authoritative source" to get their one-off information into
it.  To go down the route of creating authoritative sources would
require way too much work to establish relationships with a lot of
agencies that likely do not wish to participate in the first place.
Further, we'd have to establish a trust relationship with them to be
able to authenticate them as the authenticated source.  Who is to say
that they would even maintain the data?  To me, the crowd is a much
better source and so far we've been doing pretty well.

- --Eric
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-08 0:26 GMT+02:00 tomoya muramoto :

>
>>
>> (1) "emergency=shelter" is not defined in wiki
>
> (2) wiki says social_facility=shelter can be applied to "Emergency Shelter"
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
> We wanted to show the shelter is only available when disaster happened, so
> we added "emergency:" prefix.
>
>

You are right. Thank you for the link, social_facility=shelter is indeed
defined for emergency shelters, excuse me for recalling this wrong. Still
it could be interesting to differentiate these from other kind of social
facility shelters with a subtag.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Andrew Hain]

Is there a case for a general mapping scheme for information that ceases to be 
valid on a date and could be automatically removed afterwards?

--
Andrew

From: Nick Hocking <nick.hock...@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 September 2017 04:12:35
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

Eric wrote   "Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?"


My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people will say "ooh - 
they'll be the same as last time" and of course they probably won't be the same 
as last time and we may route people to a wrong place, with possible tragic 
results.

I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked , unusable, 
until specifically activated by authorities, which I agree should be well ahead 
of time, so long as people know that they will not be usable until a state of 
emergency is declared.

Activation should be on a center by centre basis so that authorities will be 
more likely to ensure the list of centers is accurate and up-to-date.

I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way by anyone 
other than the authorities. This brings back the old arguments about read only 
data in OSM.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Blake Girardot]

Authorities routinely post the hurricane evacuation centers for a year
as they do change a little bit year to year.

but the core typically remains the same, schools etc.

These just need a good lifecycle tag.

Like "good until' date, after which it can be easily found and removed.

I proposed some lifecycle tags for damage tagging and helicopter
landing zones (different than helipads) that would apply here

I will try and find them, but they were based on a known good until
date, after which they should be updated and a new known good until
date added, or should be removed or not relied upon.

cheers
blake

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Eric wrote   "Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?"
>
>
> My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people will say
> "ooh - they'll be the same as last time" and of course they probably won't
> be the same as last time and we may route people to a wrong place, with
> possible tragic results.
>
> I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked ,
> unusable, until specifically activated by authorities, which I agree should
> be well ahead of time, so long as people know that they will not be usable
> until a state of emergency is declared.
>
> Activation should be on a center by centre basis so that authorities will be
> more likely to ensure the list of centers is accurate and up-to-date.
>
> I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way by
> anyone other than the authorities. This brings back the old arguments about
> read only data in OSM.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Eric wrote   "Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?"


My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people will say
"ooh - they'll be the same as last time" and of course they probably won't
be the same as last time and we may route people to a wrong place, with
possible tragic results.

I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked ,
unusable, until specifically activated by authorities, which I agree should
be well ahead of time, so long as people know that they will not be usable
until a state of emergency is declared.

Activation should be on a center by centre basis so that authorities will
be more likely to ensure the list of centers is accurate and up-to-date.

I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way by
anyone other than the authorities. This brings back the old arguments about
read only data in OSM.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[tomoya muramoto]

>
>
> do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag,
> rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility shelter
> in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd.
>
> (1) "emergency=shelter" is not defined in wiki

(2) wiki says social_facility=shelter can be applied to "Emergency Shelter"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
We wanted to show the shelter is only available when disaster happened, so
we added "emergency:" prefix.

muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Eric Christensen]

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On 09/07/2017 04:08 AM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> The list of emergency centers would be very much dependent on where
> the threat is and what the nature of the threat is.

As a former emergency management planner I'll go on the record as
saying... kinda.  Generally speaking, most emergency plans (and, by
extension, emergency resources) are considered all-hazards in nature.

> Therefore I see these as being loaded (by the relevant authorities)
> only when a state of emergency is declared and only for the areas
> affected.

Emergency managers generally make this information publicly available
well in advance of any emergency so people can make proper plans to
get to their shelter or to obtain emergency resources.  There really
isn't time to start making declarations, uploading data, and hoping
people will be able to get rendered data when a tsunami or tornado is
on the way.

> These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online, 
> immediately, and available for download shortly after. Since the
> areas are relatively small the downloads would not be a big issue.

Define "small".  Right now you have Hurricane Irma taking aim at the
states of Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina.  This
is not including the surrounding states that would also be taking in
evacuees.  This storm, larger than the state of Ohio, is going to do
some damage on a very large swath of land (and already has to quite a
few islands!).

> Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be
> deleted.

Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful?  Shelters
take months to identify, work up agreements with building owners and
who will actually manage the shelter, determine how to supply the
shelter with supplies, how to staff the shelter, and many other
things.  One doesn't just show up to a building and declare it a
shelter nor does one just remove a shelter from a list after a
disaster (unless it's been shown to have been ineffective).  These are
well thought out, planned for, and exercised resources.

> Since these tags would only be used by the authorities, I believe
> that they should be unique to them.

I don't even understand this statement.

I'm a proponent of putting emergency information onto the map so
people have this information with them at all times.  No matter where
in the world you are you should be able to obtain information about
finding shelter, evacuation routes, water, supplies, and information.
 Some of this information will be dynamic but much of this information
is permanent.  The dynamic resources will be made available via
permanent information resources so documenting those will help fill
the gaps.

- --Eric
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Micah Cochran]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> Nick Hocking  writes:
>
> > Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of
> > natural disasters?
>
> Around me, there are almost no places that would be described like this
> as their primary use.
>
> Instead, there are schools, community centers, churches, etc. that are
> doing something normally, but there's a plan that if there is an
> emergency then the authorities might open it as a shelter.
>

Where I am at in North Alabama (USA) there are "tornado shelters" or
"tornado saferooms".  Some are singular use shelters.
For example:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Langston-tornado-shelter-al.jpg

Others are within another use: school, community center, church, etc.

Both types of saferooms are signed and open to the public.

-- 

*Micah Cochran*

GIS Coordinator  -  City of Athens  -  Engineering Services & Community
Development Dept.  -  Dept. of Public Works Building  -  1600 ELM ST W,
Athens, AL  - geo:34.820608,-86.991474 -  p.
256-233-2224  -  f. 256-233-8791 - www.athensalabama.us
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Greg Troxel]

Nick Hocking  writes:

> Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of
> natural disasters?
>
> Off the top of my head I could see tags such as
>
> emergency=shelter

Around me, there are almost no places that would be described like this
as their primary use.

Instead, there are schools, community centers, churches, etc. that are
doing something normally, but there's a plan that if there is an
emergency then the authorities might open it as a shelter.

So:

  it's an extra use, not a primary key

  it's an ability, not open/closed, and open/close is too dynamic to be
  on the map

so we really need

  this building is on the list to be a shelter if needed and might or
  might not be any minute


which I'd say "emergency=shelter" captures.


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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[marc marc]

Le 07. 09. 17 à 17:24, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>> emegency:social_facility=shelter
> social_facility shelter in osm is used with a different meaning,
>  so it seems quite odd.
+1 :(

2017-09-07 13:41 GMT+02:00 tomoya muramoto :
 > hazard_type=*

feel free to add some info in the wiki
having every disaster/country that uses its own tag is harmful.
many contributors are not able to read a discussion in Japanese,
much less to make a summary.

Le 07. 09. 17 à 10:08, Nick Hocking a écrit :
 > These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online,
 > immediately, and available for download shortly after.
you forget that many apps like maps.me do not have real-time 
synchronization but do a update of offline map for example monthly.
it is totally unsuitable for emergency.
it is necessary to add POI in osm as soon as possible,
while avoiding the rendering for disused emergency POI
the advantage of osm in this kind of situation is the reactivity.

 > Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be deleted.

all ? why ? of course, temporary shelters should be deleted
(or better just modify with a disused prefix to not lose other info)
but in Switzerland, for example, there are emergency shelters called 
"abris PC", their lifespan is the same as the building. they are on 
public map, sometimes also in the common parts of private building.
I see no reason to delete this kind of information only because
no disaster is expected this week in this area. no reason either
to wait that a government switch to osm to add them in osm.
limiting the damage caused by a disaster is also to prepare
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-07 13:41 GMT+02:00 tomoya muramoto :

> (1) Evacuation shelter
> Many schools are designated as evacuation shelter for natural disaster
> such as flooding.
> amenity=school
> emegency:social_facility=shelter
> hazard_type=*
>
>


do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag,
rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility shelter
in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Micah Cochran]

There was a discussion here on "Disaster response" in April.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-April/032127.html
Another discussion back in December 2015 "If a school is a shelter when a
disaster happens..."
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-December/027929.html

amenity=shelter is well established for (mainly) recreational uses, which
is very different from emergency shelters.

There are a few different practices/facilities meant by the word "shelter",
perhaps using different terms would help to make a distinction.

Thank you for bring up the discussion,
-- 

*Micah Cochran*

GIS Coordinator  -  City of Athens  -  Engineering Services & Community
Development Dept.  -  Dept. of Public Works Building  -  1600 ELM ST W,
Athens, AL   - geo:34.820608,-86.991474 -  p.
256-233-2224  -  f. 256-233-8791 - www.athensalabama.us

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:41 AM, tomoya muramoto 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Japanese community has decided to use following tags
> (Discussed here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2017-
> July/009817.html)
>
> (1) Evacuation shelter
> Many schools are designated as evacuation shelter for natural disaster
> such as flooding.
> amenity=school
> emegency:social_facility=shelter
> hazard_type=*
>
> (2) Evacuation area
> Many large parks are designated as evacuation area for natural disaster
> such as earthquake.
> leisure=park
> emergency=assembly_point
> hazard_type=*
>
> Also I hear Taiwanese community use similar tags
> https://osmtw.hackpad.com/ep/pad/static/lis34MoHRDu
>
> muramoto
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[tomoya muramoto]

Hi all,

Japanese community has decided to use following tags
(Discussed here
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2017-July/009817.html)

(1) Evacuation shelter
Many schools are designated as evacuation shelter for natural disaster such
as flooding.
amenity=school
emegency:social_facility=shelter
hazard_type=*

(2) Evacuation area
Many large parks are designated as evacuation area for natural disaster
such as earthquake.
leisure=park
emergency=assembly_point
hazard_type=*

Also I hear Taiwanese community use similar tags
https://osmtw.hackpad.com/ep/pad/static/lis34MoHRDu

muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Marc wrote

"*open=yes/no *except this one. what do you mean ?"

Yes, I agree , this one is silly and means nothing. They are always open,
and if closed will be  just deleted from the map.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[marc marc]

Le 07. 09. 17 à 05:48, Nick Hocking a écrit :
> Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters 
> to be used in times of natural disasters?

why not, it could be consistent with the other emergency feature.

> emergency=shelter
> open=yes/no
except this one. what do you mean ?
for me a closed emergency is no more an emergency.
it is a bad idea to let them displayed on a map.
it is probably useful to add a prefix disused:

if you want to say that a shelter is sometimes open,
sometimes closed, it may be better to use the tag
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours
opening_hours=off mean the feature is in a working state
but closed. if somebody has the key, it can be open asap.

temporary shelters which will probably be suppressed after
the disaster would benefit from being taged with temporary=yes
to be able to select & delete if need after the disaster.
Otherwise it will be hard to differentiate between a permanent
shelter and a temporary shelter that has been forgotten.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2017, at 12:22, Walter Nordmann  wrote:
> 
> Hi (hallo) Martin,
> 
> in Osm there are 94790 amenity=shelter and 1 (one) emergency=shelter. (Nodes 
> only, may be some more ways).
> I think, you won't change that ;)
> 


likely not alone ;-)

Depending on the kind of emergency most of the amenity=shelter aren't suitable 
as emergency shelters. Also there's no problem having both tags set in case 
that both do apply. The kind of events that were mentioned above are mostly 
more severe as that a bus stop can protect you from.

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2017, at 10:38, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
> 
> whereas amenity=shelter is a protection from something defined
> in shelter_type=*


the sun shelter protects from the sun, the weather shelter from the weather and 
the picnic shelter from picnics? ;-)

Maybe it would make more sense to define things as sun, wind, rain, falling 
rock, etc.

Features like a table, seating, etc. could go into a different property 

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Walter Nordmann]

Hi (hallo) Martin,

in Osm there are 94790 amenity=shelter and 1 (one) emergency=shelter. 
(Nodes only, may be some more ways).


I think, you won't change that ;)


Am 07.09.2017 um 09:54 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


I would use "emergency" as the "main" key.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:41:37 +0200
Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:44 AM, Nick Hocking 
> wrote:
>>
>> "I think amenity=shelter is well established  "
>
> The social facility shelter
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
> mentions emergency shelter.

amenity=social_facility + social_facility=shelter is foremost temporary
housing whereas amenity=shelter is a protection from something defined
in shelter_type=* (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type)

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

The list of emergency centers would be very much dependent on where the
threat is and what the nature of the threat is.

Therefore I see these as being loaded (by the relevant authorities) only
when a state of emergency is declared and only for the areas affected.

These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online, immediately,
and available for download shortly after. Since the areas are relatively
small the downloads would not be a big issue.

Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be deleted.

Since these tags would only be used by the authorities, I believe that they
should be unique to them.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-07 9:49 GMT+02:00 Nick Hocking :

> I don't think this school should be labelled with any kind of social
> facility tag whereas it is only in a state of emergency that it would take
> on the role of an emergency center.
>


especially as social_facility is in the amenity namespace, as is
amenity=shelter, so they are both incompatible as properties on all
amenities.
I would use "emergency" as the "main" key.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Marc Gemis]

the wikipedia page it refers to seem to describe the same facility as
you do, not ?

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Marc wrote
> "The social facility shelter
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
> mentions emergency shelter."
>
> Yes it does, although I would think that these would usually be of limited
> capacity and meant for use at all times.
>
> I think we need  tagging for large scale relief centres that would be open
> (and known to be open) if, and only if, a state of emergency has been
> declared.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Marc wrote
"The social facility shelter
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
mentions emergency shelter."

Yes it does, although I would think that these would usually be of limited
capacity and meant for use at all times.

I think we need  tagging for large scale relief centres that would be open
(and known to be open) if, and only if, a state of emergency has been
declared.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Marc Gemis]

The social facility shelter
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
mentions emergency shelter.


m.

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:44 AM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Gerd wrote
>
> "I think amenity=shelter is well established  "
>
> Yes, I read that but saw that it said  "a small place", so it doesn't seem
> appropriate for disaster relief situations.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Gerd wrote

"I think amenity=shelter is well established  "

Yes, I read that but saw that it said  "a small place", so it doesn't seem
appropriate for disaster relief situations.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Gerd Petermann]

I think amenity=shelter is well established, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Dshelter

Gerd

Von: Nick Hocking <nick.hock...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. September 2017 05:48:36
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of 
natural disasters?

Off the top of my head I could see tags such as

emergency=shelter
protects_from=
  wind
  flood
  radiation/nuclear fallout
  fire
  earthquake
  bomb blast
pet=yes/no
bed=yes/no
water=yes/no
food=yes/no
medical_aid=yes/no
open=yes/no

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[Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of
natural disasters?

Off the top of my head I could see tags such as

emergency=shelter
protects_from=
  wind
  flood
  radiation/nuclear fallout
  fire
  earthquake
  bomb blast
pet=yes/no
bed=yes/no
water=yes/no
food=yes/no
medical_aid=yes/no
open=yes/no
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