Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

Unfortunately seasonal has a wider use than just waterways ...
Used with highways ~8,000 times (probably snow closures)
Used with sports ~1,600 times (things like cricket in the summer and 
soccer in the winter)


So I don't think that water_permanence is all that useful.

On 20/07/18 05:45, François Lacombe wrote:

Hi

2018-07-19 2:17 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:



That does not allow for a combination .. e.g.

seasonal presence in winter
intermittent presence in spring;summer

The present practice of adding the tag intermittent to anything
tagged seasonal does not help at all for any chance of
combinations ... so OSM may as well abandon any hope of detailing
any complex situation.


I think this is too variable, and then OSM isn't the best place to put 
kind of waterflow timeserie.
water_permanance=intermittent should also reflect that water may be 
there occasionally without any fixed pattern.


All the best

François



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

On 20/07/18 05:45, François Lacombe wrote:

Hi

2018-07-19 2:17 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:



That does not allow for a combination .. e.g.

seasonal presence in winter
intermittent presence in spring;summer

The present practice of adding the tag intermittent to anything
tagged seasonal does not help at all for any chance of
combinations ... so OSM may as well abandon any hope of detailing
any complex situation.


I think this is too variable, and then OSM isn't the best place to put 
kind of waterflow timeserie.
water_permanance=intermittent should also reflect that water may be 
there occasionally without any fixed pattern.




water_permanence=seasonal ... would loose the specific season unless  
there is an added sub tag of seasonal=winter ...

or if could be tagged

water_permanence=winter directly. I think that is better.

Any further ideas on a tagging proposal of 
water_permanence=intermittent/seasonal/winter/summer/spring/autumn/ephemeral/* 




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[François Lacombe]

Hi

2018-07-19 2:17 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> That does not allow for a combination .. e.g.
>
> seasonal presence in winter
> intermittent presence in spring;summer
>
> The present practice of adding the tag intermittent to anything tagged
> seasonal does not help at all for any chance of combinations ... so OSM may
> as well abandon any hope of detailing any complex situation.
>

I think this is too variable, and then OSM isn't the best place to put kind
of waterflow timeserie.
water_permanance=intermittent should also reflect that water may be there
occasionally without any fixed pattern.

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

On 19/07/18 10:17, Warin wrote:

On 19/07/18 02:04, François Lacombe wrote:


2018-07-18 12:30 GMT+02:00 Andrew Davidson >:


On 18/07/18 18:42, François Lacombe wrote:

What about flow=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral ?


Flow is not a good choice for a key as you can tag other
hydrological features' permanence; such as lakes or wetlands, and
these don't flow.


Then, water_presence=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral, 
seasonal?
Obviously, I find water_ prefix redundant with waterway=*, but 
understand that it may be necessarily.
I don't see any objection to such key in your story. Just "no 
particular response".


It would allows us to merge intermittent=yes, seasonal=*, 
ephemeral=yes and maybe more tags.




That does not allow for a combination .. e.g.

seasonal presence in winter
intermittent presence in spring;summer

The present practice of adding the tag intermittent to anything tagged 
seasonal does not help at all for any chance of combinations ... so 
OSM may as well abandon any hope of detailing any complex situation.





Humm how about
water_presence:permanent=yes/no . no would mean that the water feature 
no longer exists and is redundant. yes would be the default so does not 
need to be added .. so this tag is redundant itself.


water_presence:seasonal=yes/no/spring/summer/* no being the default.
water_presence:intermittent,=yes/no/spring/summer/* no being the default.
water_presence:ephemeral=yes/no/spring/summer/* no being the default.

That would allow for complex tagging ..

Examples ?
Something present seasonally during snow melt; 
water_presence:seasonal=snow_melt (spring would be the nearest tag on 
the wiki .. but we should tag the truth rather than conform to the wiki)
Something present ephemerally but only during the wet season; 
water_presence:ephemeral=wet_season

Something present intermittently; water_presence:intermittent,=yes

Something present seasonally during winter and intermittently at other 
times of the year;

water_presence:seasonal=winter
with
water_presence:intermittent,=yes (or spring;summer;autumn ?)




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

On 19/07/18 02:04, François Lacombe wrote:


2018-07-18 12:30 GMT+02:00 Andrew Davidson >:


On 18/07/18 18:42, François Lacombe wrote:

What about flow=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral ?


Flow is not a good choice for a key as you can tag other
hydrological features' permanence; such as lakes or wetlands, and
these don't flow.


Then, water_presence=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral, 
seasonal?
Obviously, I find water_ prefix redundant with waterway=*, but 
understand that it may be necessarily.
I don't see any objection to such key in your story. Just "no 
particular response".


It would allows us to merge intermittent=yes, seasonal=*, 
ephemeral=yes and maybe more tags.




That does not allow for a combination .. e.g.

seasonal presence in winter
intermittent presence in spring;summer

The present practice of adding the tag intermittent to anything tagged 
seasonal does not help at all for any chance of combinations ... so OSM 
may as well abandon any hope of detailing any complex situation.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[François Lacombe]

2018-07-18 12:30 GMT+02:00 Andrew Davidson :

> On 18/07/18 18:42, François Lacombe wrote:
>
>> What about flow=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral ?
>>
>
> Flow is not a good choice for a key as you can tag other hydrological
> features' permanence; such as lakes or wetlands, and these don't flow.


Then, water_presence=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral, seasonal?
Obviously, I find water_ prefix redundant with waterway=*, but understand
that it may be necessarily.
I don't see any objection to such key in your story. Just "no particular
response".

It would allows us to merge intermittent=yes, seasonal=*, ephemeral=yes and
maybe more tags.

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Andrew Davidson]

On 18/07/18 18:42, François Lacombe wrote:

What about flow=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral ?


Flow is not a good choice for a key as you can tag other hydrological 
features' permanence; such as lakes or wetlands, and these don't flow.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Andrew Davidson]

On 18/07/18 18:10, François Lacombe wrote:

Has it been discussed already?


It was originally suggested by Tod Fitch:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036678.html

I suggested that persistence or permanence might be a more technically 
correct tag than presence:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036794.html

It didn't get much of a response other than a comment that a new tag 
would be necessary:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036798.html

and a question about what it would be used on:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036801.html

(watery things I would have assumed).

Then Tod wanted to generalise the tag to use on everything:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036804.html

which I answered with a plea of please no:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036808.html

to avoid another street vendor incident:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036497.html

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[François Lacombe]

2018-07-18 10:19 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 18/07/18 18:10, François Lacombe wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Sorry to wake up so late
> I find the comment of Andrew about stream=* key very interesting.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:stream
>
> Has it been discussed already?
>
> I find it better than several keys
>
>
> I'd agree .. except then there would be at least 2 more keys - for a river
> and a lake ..
> It follows the syntax of the keys seasonal and intermittent that can be
> applied to any water body ..
> Sorry ...
>
Agree, and I understand that stream isn't the best suitable term to find a
common key for all waterways.

But from a conceptual point of view, if find better to group
intermittent/ephemeral or any other recurrent scheme in one single key.
What about flow=permanent(default), intermittent, ephemeral ?

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

On 18/07/18 18:10, François Lacombe wrote:

Hi,

Sorry to wake up so late
I find the comment of Andrew about stream=* key very interesting.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:stream

Has it been discussed already?

I find it better than several keys


I'd agree .. except then there would be at least 2 more keys - for a 
river and a lake ..
It follows the syntax of the keys seasonal and intermittent that can be 
applied to any water body ..

Sorry ...


All the best

François

2018-07-18 9:50 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:


On 18/07/18 17:44, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 18/07/18 13:02, Warin wrote:

Will restart after correction.


I've just had another look at the text of the third vote:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/ephemeral=1628343#Optional_voting_on_requesting_mappers_to_add_intermittent.3Dyes_to_the_key_ephemeral




and I'm not sure I understand what we were supposed to be
voting on. The explanatory test says:

"Vote here requesting mappers to add irregular=yes to the key
ephemeral"

I can't find any mention of the irregular tag on the wiki. Was
this an auto-correct error?


Agg. No. I must have missed it going to intermittent from irregular.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[François Lacombe]

Hi,

Sorry to wake up so late
I find the comment of Andrew about stream=* key very interesting.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:stream

Has it been discussed already?

I find it better than several keys

All the best

François

2018-07-18 9:50 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 18/07/18 17:44, Andrew Davidson wrote:
>
>> On 18/07/18 13:02, Warin wrote:
>>
>>> Will restart after correction.
>>>
>>
>> I've just had another look at the text of the third vote:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_
>> features/ephemeral=1628343#Optional_voting_on_
>> requesting_mappers_to_add_intermittent.3Dyes_to_the_key_ephemeral
>>
>> and I'm not sure I understand what we were supposed to be voting on. The
>> explanatory test says:
>>
>> "Vote here requesting mappers to add irregular=yes to the key ephemeral"
>>
>> I can't find any mention of the irregular tag on the wiki. Was this an
>> auto-correct error?
>>
>
> Agg. No. I must have missed it going to intermittent from irregular.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

On 18/07/18 17:44, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 18/07/18 13:02, Warin wrote:
Will restart after correction. 


I've just had another look at the text of the third vote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/ephemeral=1628343#Optional_voting_on_requesting_mappers_to_add_intermittent.3Dyes_to_the_key_ephemeral 



and I'm not sure I understand what we were supposed to be voting on. 
The explanatory test says:


"Vote here requesting mappers to add irregular=yes to the key ephemeral"

I can't find any mention of the irregular tag on the wiki. Was this an 
auto-correct error?


Agg. No. I must have missed it going to intermittent from irregular.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Andrew Davidson]

On 18/07/18 13:02, Warin wrote:
Will restart after correction. 


I've just had another look at the text of the third vote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/ephemeral=1628343#Optional_voting_on_requesting_mappers_to_add_intermittent.3Dyes_to_the_key_ephemeral

and I'm not sure I understand what we were supposed to be voting on. The 
explanatory test says:


"Vote here requesting mappers to add irregular=yes to the key ephemeral"

I can't find any mention of the irregular tag on the wiki. Was this an 
auto-correct error?




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

On 18/07/18 16:27, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 18/07/18 13:02, Warin wrote:

Voting stopped due to removal of section.


That was my bad. I'd been confused when I found three voting sections 
on the page. From your email I had been expecting to vote twice, but 
when I found three sections and noticed that you had only voted twice 
I had assumed that the third vote was a cut-and-paste error.


I apologise, I should have read the third section much, much more 
closely before deleting.


I should have made it clear.



Having said that the third vote is a little redundant. The second vote 
is "Optional voting on a default of intermittent=yes for the key 
ephemeral" and the third vote is "Optional voting on requesting 
mappers to add intermittent=yes to the key ephemeral". The only 
internally logical votes are yes for two and no for three (or 
vice-versa). If you vote yes/yes then you are saying the default for 
intermittent is yes but you still have to add it. If you vote no/no 
then you are saying the default value for intermittent is no but you 
don't have to add it for ephemeral=*.


The last 2 votes are meant to be yes for one only,  as I said .. I 
should have made that clear.
There is no compulsion to vote for the last 2, it is just 2 different 
ways of doing the same thing.

So voting yes for one of the two will do the job.

I'll try a table and see how that looks .. the options side by side 
might be a visual hint.


-
It will give me a chance to respond to some of the votes already cast .. 
which I'll take the full opportunity to do so :)

So in a way it is a good thing.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Andrew Davidson]

On 18/07/18 13:02, Warin wrote:

Voting stopped due to removal of section.


That was my bad. I'd been confused when I found three voting sections on 
the page. From your email I had been expecting to vote twice, but when I 
found three sections and noticed that you had only voted twice I had 
assumed that the third vote was a cut-and-paste error.


I apologise, I should have read the third section much, much more 
closely before deleting.


Having said that the third vote is a little redundant. The second vote 
is "Optional voting on a default of intermittent=yes for the key 
ephemeral" and the third vote is "Optional voting on requesting mappers 
to add intermittent=yes to the key ephemeral". The only internally 
logical votes are yes for two and no for three (or vice-versa). If you 
vote yes/yes then you are saying the default for intermittent is yes but 
you still have to add it. If you vote no/no then you are saying the 
default value for intermittent is no but you don't have to add it for 
ephemeral=*.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - ephemeral -STOPPED

[Warin]

Voting stopped due to removal of section.


Will restart after correction. Old votes will go to the discussion page.


On 17/07/18 08:32, Warin wrote:

Hi,

The proposal for the property key ephemeralis open for voting.

Link to the page - 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral



If you vote for the key, then please also vote on the key intermittent 
either being a default or a manual entry.


For some past discussion on the intermittent tag see the discussion page.




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