Re: [Tagging] Multiple values for one key - the cuisine problem.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 25 ago 2016, alle ore 06:18, André Pirard 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> I saw that the OSM people are very picky about correct spelling.


formal values are without capitalization in osm


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values for one key - the cuisine problem.

[Andrew Errington]

Surely this is a solved problem?  Separate multiple values with a semicolon.

And there is no need for a language code for this type of key.  The values
in the key should be translated by whatever application is using it before
presenting it to the user.  That's why cuisine=french is correct because
the application should change it to "French" before displaying it to an
English-speaking end user.

Best wishes,

Andrew


On 25 August 2016 at 13:18, André Pirard  wrote:

> On 2016-08-24 22:06, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
>
> How to tag multiple values for a key? The cuisine problem.
>
> Whenever we tag a restaurant, we also have the option of tagging the 
> kind/style of food that is offered:
>
> amenity=restaurant
> cuisine=french
> ...
>
> BTW, the correct English spelling is
>
> cuisine=French
>
> I saw that the OSM people are very picky about correct spelling.
>
> Cheers
> Cordialement,
>
> André.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values for one key - the cuisine problem.

[André Pirard]

On 2016-08-24 22:06, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
> How to tag multiple values for a key? The cuisine problem.
>
> Whenever we tag a restaurant, we also have the option of tagging the 
> kind/style of food that is offered:
>
> amenity=restaurant
> cuisine=french
> ...
BTW, the correct English spelling is

cuisine=French

I saw that the OSM people are very picky about correct spelling.

Cheers
Cordialement,

André.



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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values for one key - the cuisine problem.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 24 ago 2016, alle ore 22:06, Marc Zoutendijk 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> A problem is that the wiki doesn't mention any of these cases.
> I would like your opinion on which way we should deal with those issues.


a possible solution would be to change the way cuisine tagging works: use an 
approach like for payment systems, this would also allow to be more precise 
than just "italian", e.g.
cuisine:french=yes
cuisine:italian=yes
cuisine:pizza=yes
cuisine:sardinian=yes (more specific sub-type of "italian" cuisine)
cuisine:steaks=yes
all on the same object.

Generally I prefer the term "regional" for local cuisine types, because 
"italian" doesn't really tell you the type of cuisine when you're in Italy, 
similarly to cuisine=french that is very rough for a French restaurant in 
France (and doesn't provide the necessary information to a French person 
looking for a restaurant).

cuisine types work well for particular kinds of food (e.g. burgers, pizza, 
sushi, steaks, kebab), ethnic restaurants far from their originating country 
(e.g. mexican, indian, persian, chinese in Europe), but "french" or "italian" 
don't work in France or Italy, too generic.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Multiple values for one key - the cuisine problem.

[Colin Smale]

Marc, there was a discussion about multi-valued keys earlier this year,
perhaps there is something in there to build upon. IIRC cuisine was one
of the specific examples mentioned. 

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-January/028320.html


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Multivalued_Keys 

Regards, 

Colin

On 2016-08-24 22:06, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:

> How to tag multiple values for a key? The cuisine problem.
> 
> Whenever we tag a restaurant, we also have the option of tagging the 
> kind/style of food that is offered:
> 
> amenity=restaurant
> cuisine=french
> 
> The wiki is clear about this:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cuisine
> 
> In the next table I have collected all the values for cuisine that were in 
> use at least 100 times.
> http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-proper.html
> 
> Problems arise whenever the choices for food/cuisine are not easy to state 
> with one value, like when we have a restaurant that is both serving french 
> and italian food.
> In the above table, we see the solution that is used often when there exist 
> more values at the same time for a given key: separate the values by 
> semicolons. *[1 [1]]
> This way is also used often for all aother keys that can have multiple values.
> This problem of multiple values for one key has been discussed by me in a few 
> diary entries. *[2 [2]]*[3 [3]]
> 
> Using the same key more than once?
> We cannot put:
> 
> amenity=restaurant
> cuisine=french
> cuisine=italian
> 
> into OSM, because you cannot use the same key twice on the same node. If you 
> try to do that in iD it comes up with cuisine_1 for the second choice.
> That is odd, because it should have named it cuisine_2 in the first place, 
> because cuisine_1 is the default first one, that now has the tag cuisine=*. 
> Very confusing to have cuisine=* for the first one and cuisine_1=* for the 
> second one!
> Because iD is the default editor, many beginning mappers use it and aren't 
> even aware of this problem and simply accept what iD offers.
> 
> When you enter a new value for a given key in JOSM or try to add an existing 
> key again, it simply removes the other one.
> 
> To examine the various ways of tagging this cuisine=* I have taken all the 
> related values from the taginfo database (date 2016-08-05) and put them in 
> various tables.
> 
> In the next table you can see _all_ the values that are currently use for the 
> "underscore" (the iD method) namespace:
> http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-underscore.html
> 
> There is a third method that mappers use to solve the problem:
> 
> amenity=restaurant
> cuisine=french
> cuisine:2=italian
> 
> or for the italian choice:
> cuisine:italian=yes
> 
> This way is also referred to as namespace tagging and in this table you see 
> _all_ the values currently in use according to this method:
> http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-colon.html
> In this table we sometimes see that the value is still a multiple value list, 
> separated by semicolons.
> 
> More problematic (to me) is the use of:
> 
> cuisine:XX=value where XX is the iso countrycode.
> What is the purpose of using that code in relation to the food being served?
> Or is it a way of saying that the language in use for the value is given in 
> that XX?
> 
> Finally I collected a few rare values:
> http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-rare.html
> 
> "Rare" in the sense that they are few but contain extremely long lists of ";" 
> separated values or are in a different script without noting so in the 
> cuisine:XX key.
> 
> A problem is that the wiki doesn't mention any of these cases.
> I would like your opinion on which way we should deal with those issues. 
> Mappers have come up (as can be learned from my tables) with a choice of 
> solutions, but it is (at least) a confusing situation.
> If this has been (most likely) discussed before, then there is nothing of 
> that discussion to be found in the mentioned wiki.
> 
> Marc
> 
> =
> [1]http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35478
> [2]http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35532
> [3]http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35512
> 
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Links:
--
[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35478
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35532
[3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35512___
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[Tagging] Multiple values for one key - the cuisine problem.

[Marc Zoutendijk]

How to tag multiple values for a key? The cuisine problem.

Whenever we tag a restaurant, we also have the option of tagging the kind/style 
of food that is offered:

amenity=restaurant
cuisine=french

The wiki is clear about this:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cuisine

In the next table I have collected all the values for cuisine that were in use 
at least 100 times.
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-proper.html

Problems arise whenever the choices for food/cuisine are not easy to state with 
one value, like when we have a restaurant that is both serving french and 
italian food.
In the above table, we see the solution that is used often when there exist 
more values at the same time for a given key: separate the values by 
semicolons. *[1]
This way is also used often for all aother keys that can have multiple values.
This problem of multiple values for one key has been discussed by me in a few 
diary entries. *[2]*[3]

Using the same key more than once?
We cannot put:

amenity=restaurant
cuisine=french
cuisine=italian

into OSM, because you cannot use the same key twice on the same node. If you 
try to do that in iD it comes up with cuisine_1 for the second choice.
That is odd, because it should have named it cuisine_2 in the first place, 
because cuisine_1 is the default first one, that now has the tag cuisine=*. 
Very confusing to have cuisine=* for the first one and cuisine_1=* for the 
second one!
Because iD is the default editor, many beginning mappers use it and aren't even 
aware of this problem and simply accept what iD offers.

When you enter a new value for a given key in JOSM or try to add an existing 
key again, it simply removes the other one.

To examine the various ways of tagging this cuisine=* I have taken all the 
related values from the taginfo database (date 2016-08-05) and put them in 
various tables.

In the next table you can see _all_ the values that are currently use for the 
"underscore” (the iD method) namespace:
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-underscore.html

There is a third method that mappers use to solve the problem:

amenity=restaurant
cuisine=french
cuisine:2=italian

or for the italian choice:
cuisine:italian=yes

This way is also referred to as namespace tagging and in this table you see 
_all_ the values currently in use according to this method:
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-colon.html
In this table we sometimes see that the value is still a multiple value list, 
separated by semicolons.

More problematic (to me) is the use of:

cuisine:XX=value where XX is the iso countrycode.
What is the purpose of using that code in relation to the food being served?
Or is it a way of saying that the language in use for the value is given in 
that XX?

Finally I collected a few rare values:
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~marczoutendijk/taginfo-cuisine-rare.html

"Rare" in the sense that they are few but contain extremely long lists of ";" 
separated values or are in a different script without noting so in the 
cuisine:XX key.

A problem is that the wiki doesn't mention any of these cases.
I would like your opinion on which way we should deal with those issues. 
Mappers have come up (as can be learned from my tables) with a choice of 
solutions, but it is (at least) a confusing situation.
If this has been (most likely) discussed before, then there is nothing of that 
discussion to be found in the mentioned wiki.

Marc


=
[1]http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35478
[2]http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35532
[3]http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/marczoutendijk/diary/35512



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