Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[marc marc]

Le 20. 02. 18 à 22:28, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
>> in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
>> people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
>> osm platform <> irl plateform
> 
> Do you mean `public_transport=platform` [^1], `railway=platform` [^2] or both?

I mean in all public transport mode, except the wiki page of 
railway=platform.
It's why I think railway=platform need to be fixed to reduce this 
difference in description not really necessary.

> this would mean that there is no way to define that there is no platform.

it's the case for all other transport mode.
is that a problem ? Do you have a use case that would require you to 
know when there is a "spacious platform" and when there is no dedicated 
space because, for example, the bus stop uses the sidewalk as a waiting 
area for passengers ?

> 
>> maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late"
>> to change a so common value.
> 
> Why not just 'stop'?

it's even more ambiguous between the stop of the vehicle
and the passenger.

> It's never too late to correct a mistake ...

Make a "proposed feature" to rename this value.
Congratulations on your success in getting the job done.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[Jo]

railway=platform unambiguously refers to an actual platform, mapped as a
way or as an area.

public_transport=platform + tram=yes (+railway=tram_stop) can be mapped on
an isolated node (so not part of the railway=* way).

It would be my preference to ONLY map it on (isolated) nodes. That's what I
do for bus stops public_transport=platform + bus=yes (+highway=bus_stop).
Nodes should be preferred, as they have coordinates. And all the extra
details like name, ref, route_ref, operator, network, zone should be mapped
ONCE on these nodes.

If we can move to such a scheme it would simplify public transport mapping
in OSM a lot.

At some point it was decided to use public_transport=stop_position for a
node which is part of the highway/railway and public_transport=platform for
the isolated node next to the highway where the passengers wait. Maybe it
would have been better to use public_transport=pole for this purpose, or
public_transport=passengers or
public_transport=abstract_approximate_position_on_node_next_to_way_containing_all_the_details_for_this_stop_and_these_are_the_nodes_that_represent_the_stops_in_the_route_relations.
But we use public_transport=platform, regardless of whether an actual
platform is present.

If there is an actual platform, it can be mapped as a way or area, with
possibly tactile_paving=yes, wheelchair=yes, but no need to repeat the name
on them and no need to add them to the route relations. They can be added
to stop_area relations.

Polyglot

2018-02-20 22:28 GMT+01:00 Selfish Seahorse :

> > in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
> > people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
> > osm platform <> irl plateform
>
> Do you mean `public_transport=platform` [^1], `railway=platform` [^2] or
> both?
>
> If `railway=platform` means the same as `public_transport=platform`,
> then the wiki page about `railway=platform` needs an update, because
> it currently reads 'a railway platform'.
>
> [^1]:  >
> [^2]: 
>
> >  > how can we know whether there is a platform?
> >
> > by geometry. if it's a way, it is a "real" plaform.
> > if not, it's unknown.
>
> 'Unknown' means we don't know anything. If `railway=platform` really
> is identical to `public_transport=platform` this would mean that there
> is no way to define that there is no platform.
>
> > maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late"
> > to change a so common value.
>
> Why not just 'stop'?
>
> It's never too late to correct a mistake ...
>
>
> On 20 February 2018 at 22:11, marc marc  wrote:
> > Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:50, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
> >> On 20 February 2018 at 21:24, marc marc 
> wrote:
> >>> Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:17, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
>  If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
>  `railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.
> >>>
> >>> I objets and request to do the opposite :
> >>> remove the "forbiden" node for railway=platform
> >>>
> >>> in almost all osm objects, it makes sense to use a node if
> >>> you don't know the precise geometry or if the object has
> >>> a small geometry
> >>> or
> >>> allow to use a way when a more precise geometry is desired.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, I wasn't precise: I'd like to change the wiki page so that
> >> `railway=platform` should not be mandatory for tram stops without
> >> platform.
> >
> > in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
> > people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
> > osm platform <> irl plateform
> > maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late"
> > to change a so common value.
> >
> >  > how can we know whether there is a platform?
> >
> > by geometry. if it's a way, it is a "real" plaform.
> > if not, it's unknown.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Marc
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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[Selfish Seahorse]

> in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
> people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
> osm platform <> irl plateform

Do you mean `public_transport=platform` [^1], `railway=platform` [^2] or both?

If `railway=platform` means the same as `public_transport=platform`,
then the wiki page about `railway=platform` needs an update, because
it currently reads 'a railway platform'.

[^1]: 
[^2]: 

>  > how can we know whether there is a platform?
>
> by geometry. if it's a way, it is a "real" plaform.
> if not, it's unknown.

'Unknown' means we don't know anything. If `railway=platform` really
is identical to `public_transport=platform` this would mean that there
is no way to define that there is no platform.

> maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late"
> to change a so common value.

Why not just 'stop'?

It's never too late to correct a mistake ...


On 20 February 2018 at 22:11, marc marc  wrote:
> Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:50, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
>> On 20 February 2018 at 21:24, marc marc  wrote:
>>> Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:17, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
 If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
 `railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.
>>>
>>> I objets and request to do the opposite :
>>> remove the "forbiden" node for railway=platform
>>>
>>> in almost all osm objects, it makes sense to use a node if
>>> you don't know the precise geometry or if the object has
>>> a small geometry
>>> or
>>> allow to use a way when a more precise geometry is desired.
>>
>> I'm sorry, I wasn't precise: I'd like to change the wiki page so that
>> `railway=platform` should not be mandatory for tram stops without
>> platform.
>
> in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
> people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
> osm platform <> irl plateform
> maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late"
> to change a so common value.
>
>  > how can we know whether there is a platform?
>
> by geometry. if it's a way, it is a "real" plaform.
> if not, it's unknown.
>
> Regards,
> Marc
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[marc marc]

Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:50, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
> On 20 February 2018 at 21:24, marc marc  wrote:
>> Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:17, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
>>> If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
>>> `railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.
>>
>> I objets and request to do the opposite :
>> remove the "forbiden" node for railway=platform
>>
>> in almost all osm objects, it makes sense to use a node if
>> you don't know the precise geometry or if the object has
>> a small geometry
>> or
>> allow to use a way when a more precise geometry is desired.
> 
> I'm sorry, I wasn't precise: I'd like to change the wiki page so that
> `railway=platform` should not be mandatory for tram stops without
> platform.

in osm, platform is where people wait to take the train.
people always are "somewhere" before taking the train.
osm platform <> irl plateform
maybe a better value should be "embarkation point" but it's "too late" 
to change a so common value.

 > how can we know whether there is a platform?

by geometry. if it's a way, it is a "real" plaform.
if not, it's unknown.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[Selfish Seahorse]

> Since the Wiki defines the 'platform' as 'the place where passengers
> wait for the vehicle', it doesn't have to be anything in particular. A
> patch of sidewalk could indeed be a light rail 'platform'.

This is only true for `public_transport=platform` [^1] but not for
`railway=platform`: the latter tag is defined as 'a railway platform',
that is, a *real* platform.

If we tag every tram stop with `railway=platform`, how can we know
whether there is a platform? Do we need yet another tag, e.g.
`public_transport=platform` + `tram=yes` + `railway=platform` +
`platform=no`?

[^1]: 
[^2]: 


On 20 February 2018 at 21:30, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Selfish Seahorse
>  wrote:
>> iD's new 'Tram Stop / Platform' preset adds a `railway=platform` tag
>> even on nodes. I thought this were a bug [^1], but the wiki [^2] says:
>>
>>> platforms: `public_transport=platform` + `railway=platform` If the platform 
>>> is just a pole with a sign and the tram stops on the road without a 
>>> physical platform, use a single node to map the "platform".
>>
>> It seems wrong to me to tag a tram stop (not the stop position) with
>> `railway=platform` if there is no platform, but only a sidewalk or not
>> even that. (It's strange enough already that
>> `public_transport=platform` doesn't mean 'platform' when used on a
>> node.) Besides, the wiki is contradictory, because according to the
>> wiki page about `railway=platform` [^3], this tag should not be used
>> on nodes.
>>
>> If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
>> `railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.
>
> Since the Wiki defines the 'platform' as 'the place where passengers
> wait for the vehicle', it doesn't have to be anything in particular. A
> patch of sidewalk could indeed be a light rail 'platform'.
>
> Also, it's pretty common to permit nodes as surrogates for area
> features when the area is not known, not surveyed, not determinate,
> ... It's been a common practice in some quarters to drop in a node
> that means, "I know there is a building/park/whatever here" and then
> replace it with the area feature when the footprint is known. In some
> cases, the boundary of the area is indefinite - how close to the post
> you stand at a bus stop is up to you and your ability to catch the
> driver's eye.
>
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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Selfish Seahorse
 wrote:
> iD's new 'Tram Stop / Platform' preset adds a `railway=platform` tag
> even on nodes. I thought this were a bug [^1], but the wiki [^2] says:
>
>> platforms: `public_transport=platform` + `railway=platform` If the platform 
>> is just a pole with a sign and the tram stops on the road without a physical 
>> platform, use a single node to map the "platform".
>
> It seems wrong to me to tag a tram stop (not the stop position) with
> `railway=platform` if there is no platform, but only a sidewalk or not
> even that. (It's strange enough already that
> `public_transport=platform` doesn't mean 'platform' when used on a
> node.) Besides, the wiki is contradictory, because according to the
> wiki page about `railway=platform` [^3], this tag should not be used
> on nodes.
>
> If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
> `railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.

Since the Wiki defines the 'platform' as 'the place where passengers
wait for the vehicle', it doesn't have to be anything in particular. A
patch of sidewalk could indeed be a light rail 'platform'.

Also, it's pretty common to permit nodes as surrogates for area
features when the area is not known, not surveyed, not determinate,
... It's been a common practice in some quarters to drop in a node
that means, "I know there is a building/park/whatever here" and then
replace it with the area feature when the footprint is known. In some
cases, the boundary of the area is indefinite - how close to the post
you stand at a bus stop is up to you and your ability to catch the
driver's eye.

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Re: [Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 20. 02. 18 à 21:17, Selfish Seahorse a écrit :
> If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
> `railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.

I objets and request to do the opposite :
remove the "forbiden" node for railway=platform

in almost all osm objects, it makes sense to use a node if
you don't know the precise geometry or if the object has
a small geometry
or
allow to use a way when a more precise geometry is desired.

I find it wrong to consider either wrong

Regards,
Marc
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[Tagging] railway=platform nodes at tram stops

[Selfish Seahorse]

Hello

iD's new 'Tram Stop / Platform' preset adds a `railway=platform` tag
even on nodes. I thought this were a bug [^1], but the wiki [^2] says:

> platforms: `public_transport=platform` + `railway=platform` If the platform 
> is just a pole with a sign and the tram stops on the road without a physical 
> platform, use a single node to map the "platform".

It seems wrong to me to tag a tram stop (not the stop position) with
`railway=platform` if there is no platform, but only a sidewalk or not
even that. (It's strange enough already that
`public_transport=platform` doesn't mean 'platform' when used on a
node.) Besides, the wiki is contradictory, because according to the
wiki page about `railway=platform` [^3], this tag should not be used
on nodes.

If no one objects, I'd like to change the wiki page [^1] so that
`railway=platform` should not be used on nodes.

[^1]: 
[^2]: 
[^3]: 

Regards

SelfishSeahorse

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