Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 24 July 2018 at 18:49, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> No because water always flows, look at the left picture on the danger sign.
>

 Sorry, couldn't see the water - just looked like a dry gully

It's just that sometimes, hydroelectric operator releases big amount of
> water wich completely and quickly flood the river bed.
>

We have similar situations near here, not so much for hydro plants, but
where roads will be cut if the upstream dam spillway is opened. One example
is:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.4429915,152.6679699,3a,75y,35.71h,84.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFjJWiXyzTOGjLkKotkCgkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
which we only show as a bridge across the River
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-27.4427/152.6735


> flood_prone could be a solution, but it's currently intended for monsoon
> or snow melt moments, not for few hours or minutes of human controlled
> flooding.
>

That's certainly the way that the "varying water level" page is written,
but the flood_prone key https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:flood_prone
says " A way or an area that is prone to flooding". Yes, it goes on to also
say mostly after heavy rain, but I don't think it precludes any form of
flooding / inundation?

Do we have any way of tagging the rate at which the water level rises eg 1m
in 10 minutes? That may be another way of pointing out that this is a
dangerous area.

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging: hazard?

[Yves]

The tag 'hazard' can be found on the whitewater wiki page, so I guess whatever 
tag is found here would be worth mentioned there.
Yves 

Le 24 juillet 2018 12:51:39 GMT+02:00, ael  a écrit :
>On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 10:48:05PM +0200, François Lacombe wrote:
>> 
>> As the discussion about intermittent/seasonal/... on waterways goes
>on,
>> there is another thing to map: how waterways banks can be dangerous
>due to
>> sudden rise or lower water level.
>
>The obvious tag is hazard, but for some incomprehensible reason it
>seems
>to be used rather rarely. Perhaps it is not in editor presets?
>
>ael
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging: hazard?

[ael]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 10:48:05PM +0200, François Lacombe wrote:
> 
> As the discussion about intermittent/seasonal/... on waterways goes on,
> there is another thing to map: how waterways banks can be dangerous due to
> sudden rise or lower water level.

The obvious tag is hazard, but for some incomprehensible reason it seems
to be used rather rarely. Perhaps it is not in editor presets?

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging

[François Lacombe]

Hi Dave,

I agree about monsooon or snow melt.
Regarding industrial operations involving downstream rivers, there are
precise restrictions and perimeters may be publicly displayed like this
https://imgur.com/a/TLhZcgE

Regarding this particular place :
The stream https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/610040431 is dangerous at any
time due to those canals https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/610040433 and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/610040432
The canals are locked by automated gates which can send approximately 50
m3/s from the underground aqueduct once open when this plant
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/305700031 isn't in operation

By a nice sunny summer day you may be highly tempted to go fishing in the
stream down from the regulation canals.
OSM is legit to warns you.

All the best

François


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2018-07-24 11:57 GMT+02:00 Dave F :

> Hi
>
> This is another one of those discussion which comes up every year or so.
>
> The perception of danger is subjective; which never fits well within OSM.
>
> Waterways are not dangerous in themselves. They are inanimate objects.
> They don't jump out & attack you as you walk by. It's the naive way people
> interact with them which causes injury.
>
> If there's a sign indicating danger, tag that.
>
> Cheers
> DaveF
>
>
> On 23/07/2018 21:48, François Lacombe wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> As the discussion about intermittent/seasonal/... on waterways goes on,
> there is another thing to map: how waterways banks can be dangerous due to
> sudden rise or lower water level.
> It is actually related to what we intend to map with intermittent or
> seasonal.
>
> For example in France, we often find such warning signs:
> https://imgur.com/a/QUxuPem
>
> Precise sections of streams or rivers are marked as dangerous even in good
> weather.
> It is stronger than simple intermittence or seasonality because of
> industrial activities running upstream (mainly hydroelectric power
> generation or dam operation).
> Nevertheless, I didn't find any global database or public information
> displaying data about such particular flooding situations. OSM can be one
> of this kind.
>
> Here is a public display next to a power plant in French Alps (with a nice
> piece of OSM without attribution)
> https://imgur.com/a/TLhZcgE
>
> Then what could be the best way to tag it?
> No existing tag sounds suitable for this, even the idea of a single
> "permanence" key.
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging

[Dave F]

Hi

This is another one of those discussion which comes up every year or so.

The perception of danger is subjective; which never fits well within OSM.

Waterways are not dangerous in themselves. They are inanimate objects. 
They don't jump out & attack you as you walk by. It's the naive way 
people interact with them which causes injury.


If there's a sign indicating danger, tag that.

Cheers
DaveF

On 23/07/2018 21:48, François Lacombe wrote:

Hi,

As the discussion about intermittent/seasonal/... on waterways goes 
on, there is another thing to map: how waterways banks can be 
dangerous due to sudden rise or lower water level.
It is actually related to what we intend to map with intermittent or 
seasonal.


For example in France, we often find such warning signs:
https://imgur.com/a/QUxuPem

Precise sections of streams or rivers are marked as dangerous even in 
good weather.
It is stronger than simple intermittence or seasonality because of 
industrial activities running upstream (mainly hydroelectric power 
generation or dam operation).
Nevertheless, I didn't find any global database or public information 
displaying data about such particular flooding situations. OSM can be 
one of this kind.


Here is a public display next to a power plant in French Alps (with a 
nice piece of OSM without attribution)

https://imgur.com/a/TLhZcgE

Then what could be the best way to tag it?
No existing tag sounds suitable for this, even the idea of a single 
"permanence" key.


All the best

François


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Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging

[François Lacombe]

Hi Graeme,

2018-07-24 0:12 GMT+02:00 Graeme Fitzpatrick :

>
> On 24 July 2018 at 06:48, François Lacombe 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Then what could be the best way to tag it?
>> No existing tag sounds suitable for this, even the idea of a single
>> "permanence" key.
>>
>
> I think intermittent would still be correct, because the water is only
> sometimes there?
>

No because water always flows, look at the left picture on the danger sign.
It's just that sometimes, hydroelectric operator releases big amount of
water wich completely and quickly flood the river bed.


> Saw reference to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverb
> ank#Varying_water_level_river which also suggests use of a
> flood_prone=yes tag, which may also work, possibly together with a
> max_depth tag?
>

flood_prone could be a solution, but it's currently intended for monsoon or
snow melt moments, not for few hours or minutes of human controlled
flooding.

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Dangerous waterways tagging

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 24 July 2018 at 06:48, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> Then what could be the best way to tag it?
> No existing tag sounds suitable for this, even the idea of a single
> "permanence" key.
>

I think intermittent would still be correct, because the water is only
sometimes there?

Saw reference to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank#Varying_water_level_river
which also suggests use of a flood_prone=yes tag, which may also work,
possibly together with a max_depth tag?
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